Return to Transcripts main page
Joy Behar Page
Penn State Rape Scandal; Prosecuting Casey Anthony; Interview With Chely Wright
Aired November 15, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Jerry Sandusky goes on national television to deny claims that he`s a pedophile who raped children. This, as 10 more suspected victims reportedly come forward. Joy will have the latest.
Then Joy speaks to Jeff Ashton, prosecutor from the Casey Anthony case. He`ll explain why going for the death penalty was a mistake and why he genuinely dislikes Joey Baez.
Plus, country singer Chely Wright came out on this show last year making her the first openly gay country star. Tonight, she`ll tell Joy if she regrets the announcement after some fans and even her mother refused to accept her lifestyle.
That and more starting right now.
BEHAR: Even though "The New York Times" is reporting that 10 more alleged victims have come forward in the Penn State sex scandal, all anyone is talking about is Jerry Sandusky`s proclaiming his innocence.
Listen to him during a phone interview with Bob Costas on NBC News Rock Center.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOB COSTAS, NBC SPORTS: Mr. Sandusky, there`s a 40-count indictment. The grand jury report contains specific detail. There are multiple accusers and multiple eye-witnesses to various aspects of the abuse. A reasonable person says where there`s this much smoke, there must be plenty of fire. What do you say?
JERRY SANDUSKY, FORMER PENN STATE ASSISTANT COACH: I say that I am innocent.
BEHAR: Here to discuss this interview and more are Don Lemon, a CNN reporter and anchor who himself is an abuse survivor; and Dr. Gail Saltz, clinical psychiatrist.
Don, what do you make of him doing this interview and proclaiming his innocence?
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: I couldn`t believe that he did the interview. As I was watching last night, I`m saying, what was his lawyer thinking? And Joy, if you listen to him, it didn`t really help his case at all --
BEHAR: No.
LEMON: -- he didn`t help himself. Especially when he was asked about "Are you sexually attracted to boys?" And I`m sure you`re going to get to that.
BEHAR: I am.
LEMON: He hesitated, he paused. If someone asked me are you sexually attracted to boys, the answer is "no" and probably an emphatic "hell, no", first all and there would be no hesitation. I don`t think he helped his case at all.
BEHAR: But even if he was adamant Gail and said, "No absolutely not," I still wouldn`t believe him.
(CROSSTALK)
GAIL SALTZ, CLINICAL PSYCHIATRIST: First of all, generally speaking, pedophiles don`t admit that they are pedophiles. I mean they`re lying to others; they`re lying to themselves. So it`s not clear that he would in the light of day be able to do anything and say, "I couldn`t have done -- this is a heinous thing. I couldn`t have done this heinous thing."
BEHAR: Well, and they sort of know that they`re bad boys, though because otherwise, they would not be so secretive about everything.
SALTZ: Well, you know, there`s something called "splitting", Joy --
LEMON: Yes.
SALTZ: -- where you can, in one part of your mind, you know what you`re doing and then you repress it because the other part of your mind, you know you`re being a monster.
LEMON: And I think he rationalized it. I think he sort of rationalized it, saying, "Hey, I like being around young boys, I like their energy, we were horsing around." I think in his own mind, he is trying to make his behavior ok.
Let`s just say that it didn`t go to the behavior that the assistant coach witnessed. Still, Joy, and Dr. Saltz, being in the shower with underage boys, horsing around, giving them bear hugs, being naked, that`s inappropriate in itself.
SALTZ: Completely. Completely and it totally crosses the line. There is, you know, legal, not legal -- morally, it is unacceptable to be an adult naked with a child that is not your child, that you`re a coach or an athlete or --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I`ve never heard anybody, you know, say a grown man admit this, say, I like to shower with young boys. I mean, first of all, you`re not even related to them, not that that counts. But who are you?
LEMON: And for him to say --
BEHAR: And those boys were not at Penn State, they were brought in to Penn State.
SALTZ: Correct.
LEMON: And for his attorney to say well, Jerry Sandusky is just an overgrown jock and that`s just what jocks do. Yes --
BEHAR: Wait, let me -- let me show you some of the video before you jump ahead so much.
LEMON: All right.
BEHAR: When Costas asked Sandusky about what he did do with the young boys, this is what he said. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDUSKY: I have horsed around with kids. I have showered after workouts. I have hugged them and I have touched their legs, without intent of sexual contact.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: What a creep. What a creep. I had one of his abuse -- sort of an abuse survivor on this show last week, I think it was, a guy who was not sexually raped or anything like that but for 50 or 60 times he said he was in a car with Sandusky. Sandusky would be driving with his left hand and had his hand on his thigh -- 50 or 60 times this happened.
And you know, the kid didn`t know what to make of it, I guess, you know. It`s like this insidious way of wending your way into the child`s life.
SALTZ: Exactly. These are seductions. And you`re using the power of transference. In other words, the feelings that the child transfers on to you because you`re an authority figure. You`re a father figure. And that leaves them vulnerable.
Instead of saying, what`s this guy doing, stop it, take your hand of my -- he feels like I can`t say that to him. That`s how the seduction occurs.
LEMON: He`s trying to see just how far the boys will let him go. If one hand he does a hand thing, then the next thing he`ll try something else, then he`ll go further and then he`ll go further. You`re right, it`s a seduction. But regardless, it`s disgusting.
When you talked about that, I have a former NFL friend, a former NFL player, he and his wife were watching last night and they texted me saying, can you believe this guy saying this is just what jocks do? Imagine Chad Ochocinco trying to do that to Tom Brady in the locker room. It`s ridiculous. Nobody does that in the shower, in the locker room, no adult does that.
BEHAR: Right. He sort of felt like, I was just horsing around; it brought to mind the Michael Jackson thing where he didn`t think that there was a problem with having boys sleep over his house, you know what I mean. We`re in our pajamas together, meanwhile he`s in his 40s and these are young boys under 10 years old.
SALTZ: Right.
BEHAR: Where do you come off thinking that that`s normal?
SALTZ: The problem is there`s this gray zone right, where you want there to be coaches and teachers and mentors for kids who can be warm and affectionate in a paternal sort of way. You want that -- you don`t want people to say, we better never talk to a kid, look at a kid, you know, be friendly with a kid because we`ll get accused of abuse, on the one.
And on the other hand, I would say to any parent, if your child has been invited to stay at someone`s house that is an adult, that is not a family member, you ought to be speaking with your kid about what`s appropriate, what`s not appropriate. And that they need to talk to you if anything is going on.
BEHAR: Well, you know, when I was a kid, my father would never let me have a sleepover at somebody else`s house. He used to say let them come over here.
LEMON: No. Not at all. Not at all.
BEHAR: He never would -- I had no idea why. I used to say, why not? These are my friends.
LEMON: In the old days parents would say -- and I don`t know about now -- but I remember when I was a kid, my parents would say, no, you`re not staying over at those people`s houses. We don`t know them and even relatives, they didn`t want me that far out of their eyesight, out of their reach, Joy.
BEHAR: And yet it happened to you, Don.
LEMON: Yes. Yes.
BEHAR: Who was the perpetrator in your case?
LEMON: Mine happened to be a family friend -- an older family friend -- one of my mother`s best friend`s sons, the perpetrator. So he was really close to my house; as a matter of fact, lived very closely. So parents can`t watch 24 hours, but even with that, my parents didn`t want me to be out of their sight. But it can still happen. It can still happen.
BEHAR: Let me ask you. How old were you, Don?
LEMON: God, Joy, I was about maybe 5, 6 years old, could be even younger from what I remember.
BEHAR: Do you remember back that it felt yucky, as they say to kids? Did it feel yucky to you?
LEMON: Yes. It feels yucky. But you`re a child.
Here`s the thing. On page -- if you have this report, you can read it - on page 17 of this report from Pennsylvania, it says he was in the shower -- it alleges that he was in the shower with a young boy, the boy turned around and quite frankly Jerry Sandusky had an erection. He tried to put it on he said he didn`t know the significance of the erection but he knew it was disgusting.
The same sort of thing with me, I didn`t know the significance of what was going on but I knew that it didn`t feel right. And once I became old enough, I got to puberty and started learning about human sexuality then I realized. But when you`re a child, the doctor can tell you, you don`t know the significance of that.
BEHAR: And also children are not taught to really say this guy -- like the little boy, he said to his mother, "I couldn`t say no to the coach."
SALTZ: Right. That`s right. They`re imbued with this kind of authority. So unless you`re educating your child -- and I really mean that you have to have meaningful, periodic -- You don`t want to make children paranoid or crazy. You don`t want to say you can never go to someone`s house. What a world to live in, on the one hand.
But if you`re having the conversations repeatedly, like not everybody does -- but there are people who could potentially do this and if you get a yucky feeling you need to come talk to me about this because you`re right, the child doesn`t understand what it`s about but they might feel instantly sort of ashamed or guilty.
BEHAR: But they need to be -- they need to feel safe with their own - -
SALTZ: Correct.
LEMON: Yes.
BEHAR: If they say that to their parents, their parents are not going to -- they`re going to be believed.
(CROSSTALK)
SALTZ: And that`s the problem in this case. Because the institution didn`t really believe --
LEMON: Joy.
BEHAR: Go ahead, Don.
LEMON: Something -- here`s something that people are not talking about. If Jerry Sandusky had this charity, this Second Mile program, and he should have known, the first thing they teach you when you volunteer for any program like this is not to do anything alone with kids. He should have known better. That is one of the tenets of working with kids.
BEHAR: I don`t think it`s a question of he should have known better, I think he wanted to go against that and be alone with the kids.
LEMON: Yes.
SALTZ: Well, frankly this is the perfect setting. If you have this issue of pedophilia, you look for a job where you`re interacting with kids and it`s all justified.
BEHAR: Right. It`s always the same thing.
You know Bill Maher was on "The View" today and he said something great and he said it on his own show last week. He said it`s because all these institutions are all about male dominance. The Catholic Church is run by a priest; they leave the women out of it.
LEMON: Men, yes.
BEHAR: This particular football scenario is all guys.
SALTZ: Yes.
BEHAR: And he mentioned the Middle East and other cultures where it`s male-dominated.
SALTZ: Yes.
BEHAR: You`ve got to have women in the situation to temper the guys.
LEMON: Yes.
BEHAR: And if women were around, it might have been harder to pull this off.
SALTZ: Because if there`s a maternal figure in there --
BEHAR: Yes.
SALTZ: -- it`s easier perhaps for the boy to be able to go and say, I don`t feel right.
BEHAR: Well sometimes it feels but besides that, women have an intuition. They are more intuitive maybe than men. Not to put a guy down --
SALTZ: They might question what they saw.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: No, no, no, no. I always --
BEHAR: Yes.
LEMON: -- I always say that women are the most evolved of the sexes, because they are always -- they have the governor and they have that sense of what`s right and what`s wrong even before guys. There`s so much testosterone sometimes for guys especially in adolescence enough until you get 40 or 50 years old and even older than that. I think women are the most evolved of the sexes. I think --
BEHAR: Well you watch your children when you`re a mother, you watch their faces.
LEMON: Yes.
BEHAR: You know every little thing. You`re watching to see if they`re unhappy, to see if they have something on their mind. To see if they`re using drugs, whatever; you have to be on top of that.
SALTZ: And they might have also questioned -- it felt more comfortable questioning the men, the men who stood by each other.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: That`s right.
SALTZ: And the woman might have felt more comfortable stepping out and saying, no, no, something is not right here.
BEHAR: That`s right, that`s right. Ok, thank you guys very much. We`ll be right back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Next up, Casey Anthony lead prosecutor, Jeff Ashton tells Joy why he genuinely dislikes Jose Baez.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Well, remember Casey Anthony. We covered that trial extensively on HLN. A Florida jury found her not guilty of killing her child, Caylee.
But the story continues as prosecutor Jeff Ashton`s new book, "Imperfect Justice: Prosecuting Casey Anthony Revealed Life inside the Trial that Captured America". Jeff Ashton is with me now. Welcome Jeff back to the show.
JEFF ASHTON, AUTHOR, "IMPERFECT JUSTICE: PROSECUTING CASEY ANTHONY": Thank you.
BEHAR: So you have a few shocking revelations in this book which is why people will buy it, to read about the things that we didn`t hear when we were covering this. So give me -- tell me one or two of them.
ASHTON: Well, I think the biggest one is what Casey`s actual story was as -- as given to us through the -- the mental health professionals that saw her; accusing, in fact, George of not just disposing of Caylee`s body but of actually murdering her.
BEHAR: She told you that?
ASHTON: That`s what she told the doctors who told it to us.
BEHAR: She told -- I see.
ASHTON: Right, right that basically the most unique thing is that Casey agrees with us that Caylee couldn`t have died by accident.
BEHAR: That she was in fact murdered but she says her father did it.
ASHTON: That she was in fact -- exactly yes.
BEHAR: But that didn`t exactly come out in the trial at all.
ASHTON: No. That -- that-- that version was softened by the defense in their opening statement, in their arguments, neither version was ever actually proven or -- or --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: The molestation version did come out in the opening statement.
ASHTON: Right, exactly.
BEHAR: Right. So they decided not to say he murdered the child because they though -- because Baez probably thought no one is going to believe that but they might believe this one?
ASHTON: I think that`s what happened, yes.
BEHAR: Is that what happened?
ASHTON: I don`t -- I don`t know if Casey changed the story between the time she talked to the doctors and the trial or whether the defense thought it was just a more palatable story to tell to claim it was an accident.
BEHAR: That`s interesting.
ASHTON: Yes.
BEHAR: And so what`s another one -- revelation?
(CROSSTALK)
ASHTON: Well, the other one -- would be you know the -- the plea and competency issue. I mean, everybody saw there was a point where we lost half a day of the case Saturday morning because of -- of an issue, which the public later learned was a competency issue. And I -- I think the thing that people are most surprised about is how that came about, basically, that there were plea discussions between Cheney Mason and Linda Drane-Burdick over a possible resolution of the case.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: They offered her a plea.
ASHTON: Well, yes. There were basically discussions and there was a sort of a meeting of the minds between the lawyers that a plea to second degree murder and a sentence of, I think 30 years would be appropriate -- would be acceptable to the state.
And he wanted to talk to Casey about that. And from what he told the judge and us, Casey just simply -- in other words she wouldn`t even talk about it. She wouldn`t sort of acknowledge the issue at all, she would just like stare blankly at him like she didn`t know what a plea was, and --
BEHAR: Oh she knew what a plea was.
ASHTON: Well, you would think so.
BEHAR: She watches "Law & Order" like the rest of us.
ASHTON: Well I don`t know if she did or not but clearly, I would think she did. But -- but Mr. Mason said he was concerned about her competency. So once you say that word, the smart thing is to check it out and make sure she`s ok and make it that --
BEHAR: So what did the shrink say about that? That she was staring and she just didn`t respond and she said her father murdered the child. What do they make of all that?
ASHTON: Well, it was interesting. The first doctor we talked to was a local psychiatrist that we`ve -- I`ve known for 20 years. And his discomfort is one of the things that I tried to kind of communicate in the book. I`ve never known him before to be quite so uncomfortable in -- in telling a story.
BEHAR: Really?
ASHTON: He -- he definitely didn`t seem -- he even said -- he goes, I`m uncomfortable and he used the word "vector", I`m uncomfortable being the vector for this information that there`s --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: The vector?
ASHTON: The vector was the word he used.
BEHAR: Like an English word I should say?
ASHTON: Well, it`s a medical term for a virus that carries a disease.
BEHAR: So he considered her a virus?
ASHTON: Well, I think he considered the story a virus if you will.
BEHAR: But the shrink didn`t even want to talk about it?
ASHTON: He certainly didn`t seem eager to, no, the first one didn`t. The second one was a bit more eager or willing to talk about it. But it was -- it was an interesting presentation both for the story itself but also for what the testing that she was given showed which essentially was - -
BEHAR: That she showed what?
ASHTON: Basically, that she was completely normal. All the testing that was given --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: That`s interesting.
ASHTON: You know indicated not only -- there was testing specifically for --
BEHAR: Is that why Baez did not use an insanity plea of defense? He didn`t really?
ASHTON: Right there was no basis for an insanity defense based on what the doctors told us.
BEHAR: Right.
ASHTON: And you know, the fact that testing would indicate that Casey was normal, I think, would surprise everybody in the world. Because regardless of whether you think she`s a victim of abuse or -- or a pathological liar, there`s something not normal about Casey.
BEHAR: Well, there`s something not normal about anybody who would leave their child the way she did.
ASHTON: Clearly.
BEHAR: And supposedly you know even possibly murder her own child and then dispose of the body so that she would never get caught. That`s why she didn`t want to take a plea deal. She knew there was no body that you could find, you know.
ASHTON: Well, we found the body but she --
BEHAR: Eventually.
ASHTON: -- we thought we could --
(CROSSTALK)
ASHTON: Right. Eventually.
BEHAR: I want to ask you about her mother`s relationship with her in a minute because that was interesting.
We`ll have more with Jeff Ashton after a quick break.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Still to come, Joy talks with Chely Wright about the challenges of being country music`s first openly gay star.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with the Casey Anthony trial prosecutor, Jeff Ashton.
So you write that Cindy and Casey have a lethally toxic co-dependent relationship and that it helped get Casey off. Explain yourself.
ASHTON: The one piece of evidence we never really could produce and develop was the real relationship between Casey and sink. We had a lot of anecdotal evidence about that relationship. But in my opinion, Cindy could never be candid about it and really face up to the problems in that relationship which I think would have given us more of a motive had we had that.
BEHAR: I see. Ok. All right.
You also called Jose Baez smarmy and arrogant. Who cares? He got her off. He won. When you say smarmy and arrogant, it sounds like you`re a little bitter, Jeff.
ASHTON: Well, you know, some people would argue that the result wipes away everything that happened. You know, what happened, happened and I think that people need to know that the way that Jose Baez presented himself in this case is not typical of lawyers.
BEHAR: It`s not?
ASHTON: No, it`s not. Most lawyers acknowledge ethical boundaries, I think, in a fashion.
BEHAR: What do you think is right (ph) with him? That he implied that there was molestation? I thought that the worst thing he did, to just throw that out there and throw George Anthony to the wolves like that without any kind of confirmation. I thought was unethical in many ways.
ASHTON: It was if in fact he didn`t -- he knew he wasn`t going to be able to prove it, absolutely it`s unethical. Whether he thought that Casey might testify is another matter. My biggest complaint that I indicated in the book was the dishonesty; that was the part that I have the most difficulty in.
BEHAR: Ok. The other thing is that you write in the book that you didn`t think the jury would ever agree to the death penalty. So why did you ask for the death penalty?
ASHTON: That decision was made by the state attorney in the case.
BEHAR: Oh, not you.
ASHTON: No, not me.
BEHAR: Well, why did he do it? Can you speak for him?
ASHTON: I can`t speak for him.
BEHAR: You don`t know what he was thinking.
ASHTON: I think tried to make the point in the book, that there was a legal analysis done. There was a legal basis for the death penalty. There was a good faith reason for asking for it. Whether ultimately they would give is a judgment call. My experience told me that there was a very small likelihood that they would.
But, you know, the state attorney takes all those things, puts them together and makes the decision that he feels is the best.
BEHAR: Do you think the defense though she was guilty in their heart of hearts? I had one of the defense attorneys here and I said to her, would you let Casey Anthony baby-sit for your child. And she was hum-and- a-hum-and-a-hum --
ASHTON: I saw that.
BEHAR: -- she really couldn`t answer that.
ASHTON: I saw that.
BEHAR: I`m just thinking, you know, I think that they thought she was guilty.
ASHTON: I don`t pretend to know what they thought about her ultimate guilt. I would assume that they`re logical people and put the pieces together in their secret hearts the same way everybody else would. I do think though they were probably as surprised by the verdict as we were.
BEHAR: Ok. Now, you know that the book has been optioned for a movie. It came out in "Variety" today.
ASHTON: Yes, I heard that.
BEHAR: So who`s going to play you? George Clooney?
ASHTON: I think that would be incredibly arrogant of me to say that. I will say, though, that during the --
BEHAR: Danny DeVito?
ASHTON: Danny DeVito. I got a better one than that. There was a web discussion during the trial about that. The suggestion was Ben Stein should play me.
BEHAR: Oh, my God.
ASHTON: I like that one.
BEHAR: We`ve cast -- Casey would be Lindsay Lohan. She knows her way around the criminal system. Jose Baez would be George Lopez, we like that.
ASHTON: George Lopez.
BEHAR: And James Brolin for George.
ASHTON: For George, yes. I can see that.
BEHAR: And maybe the mother, Ellen Barkin.
ASHTON: Ellen Barkin, yes. I could see that.
BEHAR: Just throwing it out there for your --
ASHTON: Just throwing it out.
BEHAR: Ok.
Jeff`s book is called "Imperfect Justice: Prosecuting Casey Anthony"
We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: There is a website out there called AshleyMadison.com that encourages people to cheat on their spouses. Some people believe the site actually helps marriages. We`ll see about that. Joining me are Nicole, a woman who uses the site. Noel Biderman, the founder and president of the web site, and Logan Levkoff, a sex educator and the author of "How to Get Your Wife to Have Sex With You."
Let`s start with Nicole. OK, Nicole, what brought you to the Ashley Madison website?
NICOLE, SAYS CHEATING SAVED HER MARRIAGE: I, like a lot of women, I had three children, I`ve been married for many years, and I was lonely, I was bored. And at the beginning, it was out of pure curiosity. I had read about this website, and I thought, this is something maybe fun I can check out one day. And I did. And lo and behold, it ended up being the secret that I was looking for in terms of finding what I needed that I wasn`t getting in my marriage and I wasn`t getting from my husband.
BEHAR: Like what?
NICOLE: I was missing intimacy, I was missing attention, I was missing excitement, I was missing having somebody to hear about my day, having somebody to be able to call, somebody that would appreciate me, all the things that everybody wants, that I was just lacking in my own relationship.
BEHAR: Well, how many men did you meet on the site?
NICOLE: At the beginning, in the first hour, I probably had about 100 e-mails. I mean, that`s what happens when you`re a woman on this site. But I mean, in terms of actually getting down and meeting these people, I`ve probably met over the last couple of years with about 12 of them, and several of them have actually turned into relationships where I would consider them to be my boyfriend.
BEHAR: OK. Now, we have to make it clear, your husband does not know you`re doing this.
NICOLE: No. No. Absolutely not.
BEHAR: That`s why you`re in the dark.
NICOLE: No, no, no. Nobody in my life, nobody, not a friend, nobody knows that I do this. Everybody would be absolutely floored.
BEHAR: And horrified, probably, right?
NICOLE: Absolutely.
BEHAR: You say it saved your marriage, all this cheating. So how did it work?
NICOLE: Well, I`m doing this because I don`t want to leave my marriage and I don`t want to be a single mom. I don`t want to raise my kids on my own. I don`t want them to go to their dad`s on the weekend and have me during the week. I want the same family structure that we`ve created for each other. It`s just that I want to be happy at the same time. So I`ve been able to do that through Ashley Madison and meeting these men on these sites that are giving me what I`m lacking. So I in turn am finding what I`m needing, and I`m happy, so in turn I go home, I nag my husband less, I require less of him, and I`m a happier woman, which makes me a happier mother.
BEHAR: Why not just find a guy in the neighborhood, you know, the milkman as they used to say, the soccer coach down the block? Why not find somebody that you come in contact with? Why not an affair? Why this?
NICOLE: Well, you know, it is an affair. I mean, this is an affair. It`s just a more modern-day affair. Finding somebody in the community I think is way too risky. Those are the situations you get into where everybody can find out at the end of the day. He could come knocking on my husband`s door. You know, the kids at school, if I meet somebody down the street, his kids could be with my kids at school. That`s ridiculous, I would never do that.
BEHAR: I got you. I got you. She wants it anonymous.
Now, Noel, you provide this forum for cheaters. First of all, are you married?
NOEL BIDERMAN, PRESIDENT, ASHLEYMADISON.COM: I am happily married. Yes.
BEHAR: You are happily married. You would never use this website?
BIDERMAN: No, that`s not true. I think I would use it before I would seek a divorce. If I woke up one day in a celibate marriage that I never signed up for -- I`m not a priest -- I would probably have an affair long before I would leave, too.
BEHAR: Does Mrs. Biderman have anything to worry, then, no?
BIDERMAN: I think ironically, I talk about infidelity more than anybody on the planet and if anyone should be conscious of how you may be avoid these pitfalls, it would be me.
BEHAR: Right. Now, Logan, what do you think? Do you think that this type of thing could help a marriage, do you actually believe that?
LOGAN LEVKOFF, "HOW TO GET YOUR WIFE TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU": Absolutely not. I mean, I spend my life talking about enhancing and improving the emotional and physical sexual health of our population. And I think that sites like this take away from personal accountability and integrity. It shows no respect for your partner. And we should really attempt to get out of a relationship with as much grace and respect as we got into it. And this certainly detracts from that.
BEHAR: So you would recommend divorce if things are really not working, if there`s celibacy, as he points to?
LEVKOFF: I think first you deal with it and you discuss the problems. We`re so afraid of talking about issues, whether we`re satisfied or not. But the idea that your kids don`t find out, and you know, kids want to be in a happy marriage. And if you`re not happy, your kids will know it, regardless of whether or not you`re having extramarital affairs.
BEHAR: Nicole, did you discuss the problems with your husband before you went on the site?
NICOLE: Absolutely. You could knock your head against the wall the number of times we tried to solve the problem. But at the end of the day, people are who they are. And everybody gets divorced because at the end of the day, we are who we are. People are not going to change. And like Noel said, I didn`t sign up for this when I got married. I didn`t sign up for a life of being unhappy.
BEHAR: I wonder if her husband knew that she was doing this, if it would just snap him out of his lethargy.
BIDERMAN: But it does do this. That`s where infidelity sometimes gets misconstrued. If discovered an affair, and I`m not talking about the day after talking to the couple because emotions are going to run high, but talk to them a year later, maybe even two years later. It is that litmus test, if you will. It`s the time to say we do care about each other. We better change something because this marriage is in a death spiral. And I think that`s what--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It sounds like she is enjoying this more than she would be if she fixed her marriage, am I wrong, Nicole? You seem to want to stay in this situation, rather than at this point even try to fix the marriage, right?
NICOLE: No. If my marriage could have been fixed, it would have been fixed a long time ago. We have been in counseling, several different therapists. I mean, I can`t even tell you the number of things we have tried. We`ve done it. We -- I have beat my head against the wall.
LEVKOFF: But relationships evolve, and sometimes they succeed and sometimes they fail. The key is if we`re unhappy, do we show each other enough respect and treat our relationship as we should, and with dignity. And the problem is that is not what this is about. We have a problem in this country with sexual health. We don`t talk, we don`t acknowledge, we go behind each other`s backs and betray. And that`s really criminal. That doesn`t serve any of our purposes in the end.
BIDERMAN: You bring up the word respect, but it sounds like this one in particular has tried to probably a huge degree. She didn`t just wake up one day and said I want to have an affair. She went to counseling. She saw -- the disrespect started with her partner neglecting her. So it`s easy to point fingers, but I think--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Nicole, you realize that even if you worked on your marriage, you`re not going to get the sexual high that you seem to be getting from these various affairs that you`re having, because there`s nothing like a new penny to turn you on rather than the old sock that`s at home. So let`s be real here. So there is that titillation that you are sort of providing, which is -- there is something about that that bothers me.
BIDERMAN: You make it sound like I have to encourage anybody to behave in this manner.
(CROSSTALK)
BIDERMAN: It`s in their DNA to behave this way.
BEHAR: It`s in their DNA?
BIDERMAN: Absolutely. We`re not meant to be monogamous. Look at couples in open relationships. They have the same stresses around family economics and--
(CROSSTALK)
BIDERMAN: -- but their divorce rates are way lower.
BEHAR: You said you`re monogamous--
BIDERMAN: Because I also grew up in the society, Joy--
BEHAR: Isn`t it in your DNA?
BIDERMAN: It`s not in my DNA. But I grew up in a society that rewards being married and puts a lot of emphasis on being in monogamous relationships. But there is no proof that somehow romantic love should be exclusionary that way. You wouldn`t tell me -- I have two children, I could only love one of them. That would be a ridiculous notion. But somehow I can only love one woman. That is the notion that we tend to--
(CROSSTALK)
LEVKOFF: But no one is saying that. In an open relationship, there is consent and there`s discussion and partners know what they`re doing. This is not that.
BIDERMAN: That`s not the point. The point is open relationships are more successful than monogamous ones in terms of divorce.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I`m from the `60s and `70s generation, and there was -- it was like open marriages, God telling you, you want a divorce, that`s what that was. Because all those people--
(CROSSTALK)
BIDERMAN: Divorce rates in America, open marriages are much lower than monogamous couples.
LEVKOFF: It depends on why they open them up. It depends on why they open them up.
BIDERMAN: They only open up for one reason, to change sex partners. They don`t really open them up--
BEHAR: Do you supply information about STDs on your site?
BIDERMAN: No, I think I have -- in any of my literature, I talk about the same thing, be safe. Be safe in everything. When you meet somebody for the first time. That`s why we have--
LEVKOFF: Just for the first time? But we have a sexual health crisis in this country. And chances are married couples are not using protection any more in their marriages. So you`re going to send people out to have sex with other people. The likelihood is they are not going to go back to using condoms after all that--
BIDERMAN: I`m not sending anybody out. I`m building a platform where you can say, I`m in a relationship, it`s not working for me and can we see (ph) other people. What happens in the real world -- that isn`t my role in this. I`m the entrepreneur that built a site--
(CROSSTALK)
LEVKOFF: That doesn`t make it right.
BEHAR: Let me ask you something about your entrepreneurship and your ads. You had this ad recently, you had an overweight woman standing over in a provocative pose -- I don`t know, there she is -- I don`t know what pose that was.
BIDERMAN: She`s lying on her belly.
BEHAR: She`s lying there looking pretty chubby, if I`m putting it mildly. And it says, did your wife scare you last night? What is the point of that? Are you assuming that fat women do not have sex?
BIDERMAN: Two points. No, that isn`t what I was assuming. Two points. One, any good advertising is provocative in this manner, whether it`s for Calvin Klein jeans or whether it`s someone trying to advertise fast foods--
BEHAR: Why not put a fat guy up there and say is your husband scaring you?
BIDERMAN: I do. I do the same thing on the female side. I put people on (inaudible), look at my TV commercial that the Super Bowl refused to run. It showed a brutally bad blind date, only to realize that that was her husband on their anniversary dinner. Same thing, I`m trying to speak to my constituency, who definitely wake up one morning and realize their partner has neglected themselves, doesn`t even care about their appearance, that kind of thing. That`s who I`m trying to talk to, and I think that`s perfectly legitimate.
BEHAR: But that`s not what that ad is saying.
BIDERMAN: Absolutely, absolutely it is.
LEVKOFF: The ad is saying that looks are important, to women in particular.
(CROSSTALK)
BIDERMAN: No, that`s to the male side. I do the same thing on the female side. You`re looking at only one gender.
(CROSSTALK)
LEVKOFF: Looks are important. It`s the only thing that matters in relationships.
BIDERMAN: No, taking care of yourself, as we`ve talked about. If you haven`t -- don`t have enough respect for yourself --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Listen, when you love somebody, you forget what they look like. Thanks, guys, we`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Chely Wright is known for hits like "Single White Female" and "Shut Up and Drive," and for being the first openly gay country music star. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHELY WRIGHT, COUNTRY SINGER: I`m a successful country music singer that my fans know and love, and I`m also a lesbian. And I couldn`t for the life of me draw a line to connect those, because no one in my industry had ever acknowledged his or her homosexuality, ever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: I`m happy to welcome back to my show the very brave, Chely Wright.
WRIGHT: Thanks, Joy.
BEHAR: Chely, that was a big deal to come out, wasn`t it?
WRIGHT: Well, it felt like a big deal to me at the time. And as I look back at that, I sometimes can`t believe I did it, but awfully glad I did.
BEHAR: You`re awfully glad you did, even though there have been repercussions. But let`s just go through a few steps first, because you were hiding your true self for a long time. You had a suicide attempt?
WRIGHT: Yes. I was on the verge of one night taking my life, yes. That`s true.
BEHAR: So it must be a huge relief for you?
WRIGHT: It`s great. And I`m glad that I didn`t know how good freedom feels, all of the years that I was hiding, because I think that awareness alone would have killed me. I didn`t know how imprisoned.
BEHAR: Yes. That`s very interesting. It`s like you`re let out of prison. But if you were born in prison, you wouldn`t know the difference.
WRIGHT: You never know.
BEHAR: So you`ve gotten married since then?
WRIGHT: Yes. I`m hitched.
BEHAR: And not once but twice.
WRIGHT: Yes, that`s true, how did you find out about that?
BEHAR: Oh, we have our spies here.
WRIGHT: Yes. A mole.
BEHAR: Two beautiful brides.
WRIGHT: My wife, Lauren and I actually had planned our wedding to happen in Connecticut, where marriage equality is possible there. In the meantime, marriage equality passed in New York state, and that`s where we live. So we filled out our license and our registration. And then we got that phone call about that marriage equality thing that was -- a lottery (ph) thing that was happening. And they said, if you guys want to come down on the first day and stand in line, come get married. So in our wedding band, we have two dates, July 24th and August 20th.
BEHAR: I know that you were married on the same day Kim Kardashian tied the knot. So which one of the marriages was -- let`s see, so what?
WRIGHT: We win.
BEHAR: You lasted more than 72 days because of the first time?
WRIGHT: We have, yes. We have. And even from the day that we share with Kim and Kris, which, you know, in "People" magazine, they had nine pages and we had one, which we were thrilled to have "People" magazine cover our wedding. Yes, we win.
BEHAR: You win. Some people say that that marriage and other marriages in the celeb world, in heterosexual celeb world because they don`t last and because they`re basically baloney, a lot of it, that it`s kind of an affront to gay marriage. They hold up heterosexual marriage as if it`s so sacred and keep gays from getting married, and yet they do this when they get it, this is what they do with it.
WRIGHT: There`s something to be said for that. I know there`s a whole group of people out there who think Kim`s marriage was a sham. And I certainly, I don`t think that.
BEHAR: No.
WRIGHT: I think she wanted it to be love and hoped it would materialize, but unfortunately it didn`t. However, it does bring up the discussion that straight people who have the ability to run right out and get married on a Vegas strip or have a marriage for 72 days, they perhaps don`t understand that Lauren and I stood in line with people at the courthouse on July 24th, with couples who had been together 25, 35, 40 years.
BEHAR: I know.
WRIGHT: And if marriage is so sacred, I think we should outlaw divorce.
BEHAR: There`s an idea.
WRIGHT: Right?
BEHAR: It won`t work. People want divorce.
WRIGHT: They`ll pay big money for it.
BEHAR: They want divorce more than they want marriage, I think.
WRIGHT: That`s true.
BEHAR: But I understand you are estranged from your mother. What happened there? She didn`t believe -- she didn`t buy it that you got married? What?
WRIGHT: You know, I have had a strained relationship with my mother for the past 15 years, since my parents divorced for whatever reason, moms and daughters are pretty complex. But I chose not to come out to my mother publicly -- before I publicly came out.
BEHAR: Why not?
WRIGHT: You know, someone said to me, why dial up pain? Why dial up a bad experience? I was steeling myself emotionally and physically and spiritually to tell my story publicly, and my mom hadn`t been an everyday part of my life.
That being said, about 10 days after I came out, she must have seen your show because she called me and said, so you`re gay. I said, yes, we had about a two-hour conversation about it. It was very non-affirming and very painful for me.
BEHAR: Is she religious?
WRIGHT: That`s what tells her she needs to reject me, is what she thinks she understands from religion. And she thinks I have a price to pay with God, and that hurts.
That being said, I know my mom loves me. I have no doubt, but a lot of parents are being told by their churches to reject their children. And although I had a very tough day the day my mom rejected me, it really kind of made me re-commit to why I came out publicly. I came out because what if a kid had gotten the nerve to tell his mom, just one person, hey, mom, I think I might be gay, I can`t stand the thought of his only reaction from a parent being what my mother`s was. So it`s why people like us who feel safe and able to come out. That`s a big element of it, safe and able.
BEHAR: And yet it didn`t help your career?
WRIGHT: Did not.
BEHAR: It`s not helping your career at all. You`re in an industry, in country music where this is not done. It`s just not done.
WRIGHT: It`s never been done. And I`m the only one since who`s done it. The way that country music works is like your job, I guess. I don`t have the type of job where I can get a pink slip and become fired.
BEHAR: I can.
WRIGHT: Oh, you can?
BEHAR: Yes. Why not?
WRIGHT: Well, in country music, it doesn`t really work that way. It`s more of, I didn`t get a pink slip but I just don`t get called in to work anymore.
BEHAR: Yes. I see what you mean. Yes. I`m working on a job, whereas yours was a different kind of a career. Like when I do stand-up, they stop calling if they want.
WRIGHT: Exactly. And the sad -- part of what is true is that there are a lot of people in America today who live in non-protected, non- workplace protected states, and a lot of people can actually just be fired for being found out.
BEHAR: I want to hear -- when we come back, I want to hear more about the industry, because it was very risky what you did, and your personal life is blooming, but your career is not. And there`s something so annoyingly sad and wrong about that.
WRIGHT: Isn`t there?
BEHAR: Yes. Well, let`s see what we can talk about to help you.
WRIGHT: OK. Sure.
BEHAR: We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WRIGHT: I`m coming out in 20 days. I don`t know if I have the courage to actually have anyone ever see this tape, but -- sometimes living one`s own life is damn near impossible. I`m just trying to live mine openly and honestly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That`s country music star Chely Wright in "Wish Me Away," the heartwrenching new documentary about her coming out.
Have you heard from any of your exes, Brad Paisley, Vince Gill? Because you lived a straight life in the past with these guys, I guess, and others. Anybody else coming out to speak for you on your behalf from the industry?
WRIGHT: Yes, I did try to -- I did try to make people think that I was straight and I did attempt to have genuine relationships with a couple of men, although I -- make no mistake, I`m gay and I always have been gay. But I haven`t spoken with Brad. I have gotten -- received some well wishes. I know Vince is happy that I`m happy, and that, of course --
BEHAR: Can`t they help you a little bit? Sort of push the industry to book you? I mean, Toby Keith was on my show a few weeks ago. He`s very supportive of gay rights. People like that need to speak out.
WRIGHT: Yes. Well, and that`s a big deal. I`ve had a few people in my industry reach out privately, but very few have publicly spoken out and said, hey, what Chely did is important and great, and we support our gay -- the gay community. Because once you put a public voice to it, then it just takes the stigma away.
BEHAR: Absolutely.
WRIGHT: And they could use their power so, so profoundly.
BEHAR: Let`s tell them, hey, guys, you have to speak out about this. It`s not enough to just talk to each other about it. Because speaking out is key.
WRIGHT: It`s key. We need our straight allies. We`re nothing without -- the movement is nothing without our straight allies.
BEHAR: OK.
WRIGHT: And I`ve got, you know, I`ve had some support out of Nashville, but I`d like to see more. I`d like to see more.
BEHAR: Well, maybe this -- I hope they`re watching. I hope it`s not just your mother watching, maybe Toby`s watching and Vince --
WRIGHT: I`ve known Toby for a long time. He knows me on a human level. I know he likes me.
BEHAR: He`s a great guy.
WRIGHT: I`m glad to hear he supports--
BEHAR: I only have 30 seconds, so I want to talk about "You`re Like Me." Tell me about it.
WRIGHT: Well, we are opening an LGBT community center in my hometown of Kansas City. It`s called the Like Me Lighthouse. And things are starting to really heat up. And it`s getting exciting to know that young kids that grew up where I grew up will have a place to go for resources and social events and education with their families.
BEHAR: That`s great. That`s great. I hope this helps a little.
WRIGHT: Thanks for having me on.
BEHAR: You`re terrific and you`re beautiful.
WRIGHT: Well, thank you. You`re cute, too, Joy.
BEHAR: Thank you.
WRIGHT: But I`m married.
BEHAR: You`re married. So am I.
WRIGHT: I`m married. Oh, yes, I knew that.
BEHAR: Yes. Chely`s memoir, "Like Me: Confessions of a Heartland Country Singer" is now available in paperback. Thank you for watching. Good night, everybody. Be kind.
END
