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Joy Behar Page
Penn State Rape Scandal
Aired November 16, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Penn State assistant coach Mike McQueary, who`s facing public outrage for apparently not doing enough claims he did follow up with police. Joy will have the latest on the Sandusky rape scandal and she`ll look at how the public nature of this case can re-traumatize the victim.
Then Donald Trump`s wife Melania dishes on life as a grandmother and her husband`s status as a political don.
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: Listening to Jerry Sandusky saying he showered and horsed around with young boys is really beyond troubling. But imagine what it`s like for the alleged victims.
The mother of one of the boys spoke out about her son`s reaction on ABC`s "Good Morning America". She`s in shadow so they could protect her and her son`s identity. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I said, why would it make you cry? And he -- he said, "Because I`m afraid -- I`m afraid he`ll go free.
Makes me really mad that my son can`t go out and have a normal life. He can`t go out and hang out at the mall because he might run into Jerry. He gets to go to the mall and his job and do whatever he wants to do. That aggravates me. He should be in jail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Here now to discuss this further are Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and marriage and family therapist; and Theo Fleury, former NHL Stanley Cup champion and the author of "Playing with Fire", who he himself was the victim of sexual abuse.
Welcome to the show.
Bethany, it`s heartbreaking hearing that boy`s mother talk about her son`s crying. What kind of an effect could Sandusky`s interview have on the alleged victims? I`m sure they`ve heard it at this point.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, I think it`s very interesting that the boy told his mother he`s afraid Sandusky is going to go free. And to put it in context, male pedophiles who molest little boys and extra familial offenders -- they offend outside the family -- are the most prolific of all offenders. They offend on average over 500 times over the course of their lifetime and they escalate as they get older.
What that tells me -- and they have fewer number of victims. A lot of acts against a few victims. What that tells me is that he stalked this little boy and the little boy cried to his mother. I guess he`s an adult now because he`s terrified that if Sandusky gets out he`ll start stalking him again.
And actually, that`s a very real possibility in this case if Sandusky goes free.
BEHAR: Yes.
Now, Theo, you were sexually abused as a child. Tell us what happened to you.
THEO FLEURY, FORMER NHL STANLEY CUP CHAMPION: I was actually abused as an adolescent. So from the time I was 14 to the time I was 17, I went through a grooming process of about a year before actually anything physical happened to me. But it was over a three-year-period. It completely, you know, obviously changed my life.
I had some horrible struggles with alcohol and drug addiction and sex addiction and food addiction and everything.
BEHAR: Who did that to you?
FLEURY: It was a guy by the name of Graham James. He had already been convicted before I actually came out a few years ago and filed some more charges against him as well. So we`re just waiting the trial for this next set of charges.
BEHAR: He was a coach or something?
FLEURY: Yes. He was actually a scout that found me when I was 14 years old. You know, basically knew that my parents had struggled both with addictions and weren`t really a huge part of my life. It was a perfect setup for him to start the grooming process and like I said, probably -- I was molested probably about 150 times over a two-year-period.
BEHAR: Was it -- well, I don`t want to get into graphic details. Any kind of molestation is traumatizing, am I right Bethany? Any kind. It doesn`t have to be a rape. It can be fondling, diddling, whatever you want to call it?
MARSHALL: Whatever. It is so traumatizing. What Theo pointed out, stalking is a part of the abuse. 150 times that`s stalking and sexual abuse. What makes it difficult for boys, I think in particular, and all children actually, when a child is abused, he or she is stimulated to feel sexual arousal physiologically.
So even though the boy doesn`t want it, he will still get an erection. That makes him feel guilty as if it`s his fault and then when he feels guilty, he attempts to repress the entire incident.
Now Theo, you are so brave to come out and speak on behalf of all victims. And what you`re talking about, alcoholism and sex addiction, that is such a predictable part of sexual abuse because you drink to block out the feelings. Boys are not socialized to talk about their feelings and then inappropriate and risky sexual behavior is often an outcome of childhood sexual abuse.
BEHAR: Yes.
FLEURY: Yes. And you know, I was molested in a dark room, so part of my -- you know, I never slept for probably 25 years of my life because every time I closed my eye, you know, I was brought back into that dark room.
The only way I could get any type of rest or sleep was to completely get annihilated on drugs or alcohol so that I could actually fall asleep.
BEHAR: Yes. But you never came forward at the time. You must have been frightened to come forward. Am I right? Is that what it was?
FLEURY: Well, my dream and my goal as a young person was to become a National Hockey League player. And this guy obviously stood in the way of that. 30 years ago our sexuality was nowhere near it was today. I knew if I blew the whistle that my dream of becoming a professional hockey player would have been -- I would have been black-balled and not been able to achieve my goal.
BEHAR: Yes. That`s interesting. It did cause you tremendous harm. You`re talking about alcohol abuse and sexual addictions.
(CROSSTALK)
FLEURY: But not only that, not only that, you know, I was absolutely horrible at relationships, you know. I`ve been married a couple times. My poor children had to go through everything that I went through.
But what I can tell you, Joy, is my life today is the greatest life you can possibly imagine. I have a loving partner and a fantastic wife. My kids have grown up and we`ve worked through the process of healing together and what not.
That`s what I want listeners to see, is that when they`re looking at me, they`re looking at me as a victor, not a victim or survivor. I am a victor over child sexual abuse, and my life is unbelievable. And I couldn`t -- cannot tell you how now I`ve become an advocate to protect children and to really stomp this out.
I think if we don`t start healing the men, that`s why the cycle continues, and when I`m out doing my speaking engagements and book tours and all that, those are the guys that I see, 40, 50, 60, 70-year-old men, who I am the very first person that they revealed to in their life.
BEHAR: Yes. I know it`s very hard.
MARSHALL: Can I say something about that, Joy?
BEHAR: Yes.
MARSHALL: The reason the men don`t reveal the sexual abuse is when a little boy is molested by a man. The little boy becomes confused about his masculinity, his sexual identity. There`s a huge social stigma against homosexuality. The adult child survivor is afraid he will be seen as gay, there`s internalized homophobia.
And Theo, what you`re talking about not being able to sleep in the dark in the past, that`s because your -- the terror and fear was so primitive, it`s as if you were living in the dark and you could not think about what was happening to you. The reason you had compulsion -- people who have compulsions have a build-up of feelings outside of awareness that can only be neutralized by an act, like sex addiction, drinking. The more you are aware of your feelings, the more it neutralizes the addiction.
Finally, being abused as a child does not have to doom you, it`s not a curse. Many people do survive and the key to survival is appropriate mature, trustworthy, adult relationships because we have incredible neural plasticity. We change and we grow over the life span and we can heal ourselves.
BEHAR: Thank goodness we do.
Let me say one thing. A question to you Bethany because Theo alluded to this. Do you think people are more dismissive of sexual abuse accusations by boys than by girls?
MARSHALL: Yes. For two reasons. Boys are taught that if they have a sexual interaction, it`s their fault and they`re always the aggressor. If a boy is abused by an adult woman he`s socialized to believe that it`s a conquest and it`s socially sanctioned. And so boys are much more terrified to come out than women are.
And only one out of three sexual abuse victims remembers the abuse and it is vastly under-reported.
BEHAR: Yes indeed.
Now let me go back to Sandusky for a second because he denies that the sexual abuse ever occurred. I mean he says it didn`t -- you heard the tape. Does this -- do you think that, Bethany, that this prevents other victims from coming forward just hearing that these kinds of people are always going to deny and then there`s a statute of limitations on them also?
I mean I think that this kind of media attention on him and showing him, that he is completely without a conscience and without any kind of guilt would prevent people from speaking, I think. But what`s -- what`s the point?
MARSHALL: Well, yes because he already -- he already told you that he was molested 150 times by his perpetrator. That means he was brainwashed, he was coerced. These victims are -- have been under a reign of terror. And when their terrorist, their perpetrator comes out and says that he`s innocent, can you imagine how frightening that would be?
BEHAR: Yes.
MARSHALL: And how they don`t -- they don`t feel that they`ll be believed. But I`m going to tell you, asking Sandusky if he`s sexually attracted to children is like asking Imelda Marcos if she likes shoes.
BEHAR: Exactly.
MARSHALL: I mean come on please.
BEHAR: I know.
MARSHALL: Of course, he is.
BEHAR: I know and he paused, that pregnant pause of his.
Before you go, Theo, I hear that you are starting an organization for fellow abuse victims. Quickly, tell me about that.
FLEURY: Yes. Yes, we`ve started the Theo Fleury Society for Abused Men up in Canada. And we`re basically starting from scratch. Because we really -- because I`ve been so prominent and so -- in the forefront around the issue. We really -- our -- our society doesn`t want to get run over by having all these men come forward and not being able to have the back office set up where we can send these guys to the proper places.
BEHAR: Right.
FLEURY: Because -- because we get one chance with guys.
MARSHALL: Right.
FLEURY: We get one chance. If they come out and they don`t have a good experience with help, we never see them again.
BEHAR: They go back in the closet. Yes.
FLEURY: Yes. So we want to make sure that when we come out, when the society comes out that we`re ready to go and we`re ready -- we`re ready for business.
BEHAR: Ok, all right.
FLEURY: And we start to get these guys, you know, on that road of recovery and healing and completely empowered.
MARSHALL: Admirable.
BEHAR: Thank you -- thank you for that.
FLEURY: Thank you.
BEHAR: And thank you keep up the good work.
And we`ll have much more on this story when we come back. Thanks.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: People are outraged that Jerry Sandusky spoke to the media. Why did he decide to speak out? And doesn`t his denial hurt the victims all over again? Still with me is Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst; and joining us -- joining us is Lisa Bloom, author of "Think" and the founding partner of the BloomFirm.com.
Lisa, why does his lawyer let him talk to the media?
LISA BLOOM, FOUNDING PARTNER, BLOOMFIRM.COM: I would assume that this was done over his lawyer`s objection. I would never let Sandusky talk to the media if he were my client. I represent a lot of people on high profile situations and if you`re accused of wrongdoing, this is the dumbest thing you can do. Because he`s now inflamed the victims. He`s made public statements. If this thing goes to court, which I`m sure it will, all of those statements can and will be used against him.
BEHAR: Right. Exactly.
Let`s listen to what Sandusky said about kids. Just watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JERRY SANDUSKY, FORMER COACH, PENN STATE: I have horsed around with kids. I have showered after workouts. I have hugged them and I have touched their legs without intent of sexual contact.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Bethany, what other reason would he have to touch their legs? Doesn`t that make him sound like an even bigger perv just to listen to him?
MARSHALL: Well -- you know what I hear, Joy, when I hear that, when he says, I touched their leg, I horsed around, can you hear the longing in his voice? He`s re-living.
BEHAR: Yes, oh, God.
MARSHALL: Pedophiles have such a rich fantasy life. I wouldn`t be surprised that when he`s doing that phone interview he`s having fantasies going through his mind and he`s re-living. And Joy, one of the things we know about pedophilia, is pedophiles massively project their own impulses into the child. What I mean by that is just because they`re turned on by the child, they imagine the child is turned on by them.
BEHAR: Yes. Yes.
MARSHALL: So in a -- in another sound bite, he says about one of the male victims, he slid across the floor, he was turning on the showers. He might as well have said it was that little boy`s fault, he`s trying to turn me on. Can you hear that, is what he`s saying?
BLOOM: Blaming the victim.
BEHAR: Yes, yes and also this implication that the child is also having fun, that he`s sliding around and enjoying it.
MARSHALL: That the child wanted it. That`s what he`s saying. And also, when he says, I just touched his leg. Well, what`s close to the leg? The penis.
BEHAR: That`s right.
MARSHALL: So he`s really -- he`s minimizing it, he`s saying, well, it wasn`t that close, it wasn`t the penis, it was just the thigh. That`s like a little kid saying, oh, no, mommy, I didn`t take that cookie out of the cookie jar, it was already lying on the counter.
BEHAR: Yes exactly. I had a guest on my show, I think it was last week, an abuse victim of Sandusky. And he said that he was not violated in a rape situation but that Sandusky would be driving a car using his left hand to drive and his right hand would be on the kid`s thigh. For 50 or 60 times he would do that. So it takes all forms.
MARSHALL: Well that`s -- that`s why, Joy -- it takes all forms but most sex offenders are also what we call interpersonal offenders. By interpersonal offender they exploit the emotional life of the child for their own gratification.
So it`s not just arousing the child, it`s prematurely exposing the child to sexual feelings that the child is not yet prepared to feel. It`s treating the child like a peer, treating the child like he`s married to the child.
BEHAR: Yes.
MARSHALL: I mean, isn`t that kind of like what a guy might do with his girlfriend, put his hand on her leg while he`s driving.
BEHAR: Yes indeed.
MARSHALL: There`s that quality of this boy is my little girlfriend. That`s what I hear in that story.
BEHAR: Ok. Lisa, what do you think when Sandusky says there`s an answer for all the charges? What do you think he`s talking about?
BLOOM: Well, I suppose he`s going to say that he`s innocent as he is maintaining and that simply innocent touching was misconstrued as sexual touching. The problem is there`s an eyewitness to at least one very serious incident. There are multiple victims here, which is very helpful to the victims and very bad for him.
So I think he`s really got an uphill road. I mean, I have to emphasize he is presumed innocent and we should hear out his side of the story but if I`m representing the victims and that`s who I represent in these kinds of cases. I`ve represented many child sexual abuse survivors, I`m glad that he`s talking. Get him out there on camera.
BEHAR: Right.
BLOOM: Let him talk over and over again because now, we have him admitting to showering, to touching --
BEHAR: Right.
BLOOM: -- you know, to a lot of stuff. That`s getting me halfway there as the victim`s attorney.
BEHAR: Ok. We`ll continue this. I have to take a break, Beth. Wait until I come back.
MARSHALL: Ok. Ok.
BEHAR: We`ll be right back. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Still ahead, Hope Solo gets kicked off "Dancing with the Stars". Was it because of her bad dancing or her bad attitude?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`re back and talking about the Penn State abuse scandal.
Bethany, you know, this creep`s house overlooks an elementary school. How do you like that?
MARSHALL: Well, you know what people with compulsions do? They organize their whole life around the compulsion, like an alcoholic might get a job in a bar, a sex addict might work in a strip club.
What`s pedophile going to do? Move across from a school, get a job as a coach, work in a school where there`s a power differential. Oh, and start a non-profit organization for underprivileged boys so that he can groom them because their parents are poor and have to work all the time so he has access.
BEHAR: Right.
MARSHALL: That`s how I read that situation.
BEHAR: Now, this other guy, Mike McQueary, is that his name?
BLOOM: Yes.
BEHAR: He witnessed Sandusky allegedly raping a child and everybody jumped on him. Now, he says he stopped it and he told the police. Is he just protecting himself or Penn State? And also it`s his word against Sandusky at this point or the police at this point, really. Do you think he really did that? What do you make of that, Lisa?
BLOOM: I think it`s very common for witnesses to change their story. But if they`re an adult and they change their story significantly, it`s a problem and good for Sandusky at trial. But we`re going to have a police report to corroborate what he said to that police and what he did at the time. So that will back up his story or it will destroy the story if it conflicts.
BEHAR: Now, Sandusky`s lawyer, this guy Amendola, I think is his name. He said this about his client. Let`s watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE AMENDOLA, JERRY SANDUSKY`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jerry Sandusky is a big overgrown kid. He`s a jock. For anybody who`s ever played sports, you get showers after you work out. I mean when people hear he got showers with kids. My goodness, he got showers with kids. That makes him guilty, right? Obviously anybody who gets a shower with a kid who`s an adult has to be guilty of something.
But the bottom line is, jocks do that. I mean they kid around. They horse around.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Bethany, what the hell is he talking about? He`s 67 years old. The kid is 10 and they`re not jocks. Those kids were not even jocks. They were kids they brought into the locker room.
BLOOM: Thank you.
BEHAR: And it sounds like it was always -- it was always alone with the kid. It`s not like there was a group of kids there. He was alone. Bethany.
MARSHALL: I think this attorney needs a consultation with a clinical psychologist so he can really understand the disorder pedophilia so he could shut his trap.
BEHAR: Yes.
MARSHALL: Because if he knew about pedophilia, he would not be saying that. Because fixated pedophiles which are pedophiles who never want to be with an age mate, they only want children as opposed to regressed who might get married but then regress to children under times of stress. This guy sounds more like a fixated. The fixated pedophile only chooses child-like activities because in his mind he is a child. That`s why these other children feel like age mates to them.
Adult men do not want to shower with boys. They just don`t. But we`re talking about someone with a compulsion, organizes their life around the compulsion. So what is a person with a compulsion for children going to do?
BEHAR: Yes.
MARSHALL: He`s going to be in a situation where you can shower with boys. So I think his attorney is sinking his ship, quite personally.
BEHAR: You know, Lisa. What bothers me also is that there`s the statute of limitations.
BLOOM: Yes.
BEHAR: I believe these allegations are from 15 years ago. I mean he could just walk away, can`t he?
BLOOM: Well, the statute of limitations reform is very important because most children who are abused are not prepared to deal with it until they`re adults.
BEHAR: Right.
BLOOM: In Pennsylvania, it`s not too bad. For civil cases you have until age 30. For criminal cases, until age 50. So there is still time for claims to be made, for claims to be brought, especially as here, where there claims to be an eyewitness. I can`t emphasize how important that is.
BEHAR: Right.
BLOOM: In all my years of doing these cases I never had an eyewitness in any of my cases. And boy, is that powerful evidence to convince a jury.
BEHAR: Thanks ladies.
We`ll be right back.
Thank you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: On last night`s Dancing with the Stars, Hope Solo and her partner, Maksim Chmerkovskiy were eliminated after a season full of run-ins with the judges. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The grace and the fluidity of it sort of suffered.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 7.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 7. The same thing I got in week one. Kiss my booty.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re just here for our fans and to have fun. So the scores at this point (inaudible) mean nothing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The ins and outs of this are what`s really important, and going in and out. You can smile like that, that`s fine, Max. But the truth is--
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s nothing to do with me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: It`s nothing to do with him. Au contraire, mon ami. With me now to talk about this and other pop culture stories in the news are Melania Trump, model and jewelry designer. Rob Shuter, naughty but nice columnist for the Huffington Post, and NeNe Leakes, co-star of the Real Housewives of Atlanta.
Welcome guys to the show. Lovely to see you all. So Rob, let me start with you, what got them kicked? Was it bad dancing or a bad attitude?
ROB SHUTER, HUFFINGTON POST COLUMNIST: Bad attitude. The public didn`t like it, the judges didn`t like it. I think we`re all talking about how the judges really got annoyed with these two for their attitude. But we all see that on TV, so I think people at home, too, thought these two were not playing very nice.
BEHAR: But don`t they hire, they use, what is the word, they raised her to a higher standard because she`s an athlete maybe?
NENE LEAKES, REAL HOUSEWIVES OF ATLANTA: You think?
BEHAR: Maybe.
LEAKES: I wasn`t very excited about the contestants for the Dancing with the Stars this season. I think they could have done better anyway, so that`s my opinion.
BEHAR: Who would you have put on there?
LEAKES: I would have put me on there.
BEHAR: I guessed that before you even said it. Melania, what do you think about Maksim Chmerkovskiy?
MELANIA TRUMP: He`s a great dancer. And he has a lot to say. So a lot of people at home, they vote if they like you or not. So this is the show that you have a vote or you don`t have a vote.
BEHAR: Yes, but he says things that are like snotty sometimes.
SHUTER: He does. But I think that`s part of his image now. He`s making sort of like a name for himself as that snarky guy.
BEHAR: Like Simon Cowell.
SHUTER: Exactly.
LEAKES: Like NeNe Leakes. He should keep it real and tell it like it is. That`s OK.
BEHAR: So everything is going to be about you tonight.
LEAKES: Well, that`s the truth.
BEHAR: All right. Let`s do another story. Patti Labelle, OK, she`s being sue for allegedly cursing out and throwing water on an 18-month-old baby and her mother. Apparently all this started when Patti confronted the mom over the kid running around the lobby. Patti was channeling Naomi Campbell, I think, but what do you know, Melania? It was in the Trump building this all happened.
TRUMP: It was in the Trump building. And you know, I think she just got annoyed and I guess the mother was busy packing and she didn`t see the child running around. So I have a 5-year-old boy and he has a lot of energy. You know, I don`t know if she had the nanny or somebody to keep the child in the place, but I guess she just -- Patti just lost her mind.
BEHAR: NeNe, how would you have handled it? Let`s say the kid was totally obstreperous in the lobby. What would you have done?
LEAKES: I don`t know. Maybe put ear plugs on. Listen, I don`t know. Patti Labelle is a legend. I`m so surprised to hear at her doing something like this. You never hear things like that about Patti. I`m surprised that even happened. I really am.
BEHAR: She was having a bad day maybe, Rob?
LEAKES: Really, having a bad day, throwing water on a baby? I`m surprised.
SHUTER: I think it`s very hard though when you try to reprimand somebody else`s child. I think parents get very angry about that. You get in the elevator, Patti, you leave the lobby. You don`t need to be harangued (ph). Move.
BEHAR: It`s unusual behavior. But I mean, let me ask you, sometimes you see somebody on the street reprimanding or spanking their kid. Do you want to say something? Would you dare say anything?
SHUTER: I think I would want to say something, but I wouldn`t.
BEHAR: You wouldn`t.
SHUTER: Unless something really bad happened.
BEHAR: Let`s say they`re hitting the kid?
LEAKES: Well, maybe they need to be popped every now and then.
TRUMP: I don`t agree.
BEHAR: What don`t you agree with?
TRUMP: It`s abuse.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Who knows what goes between the four walls at home. If she can do that in the street in front of everybody, who knows what she can do at home when nobody`s watching? You don`t know. The child is what, young child, cannot help himself, herself.
LEAKES: I would have to disagree. I would. Some of these kids are out of control. I`m not saying abuse them, but a pop, get back in line. I don`t see anything wrong with that. Get it together. There`s nothing wrong with that.
(CROSSTALK)
LEAKES: We have two different parenting skills here. You know, a good old pop helps sometimes.
BEHAR: People say that, but do you really think it helps or does the kid just remember you popped them?
LEAKES: And then the tears dry up, and let`s go on about our day, honey.
BEHAR: When you ask a kid later on, were you hit as a child? They say, yes, oh, I deserved it. I don`t know about that.
TRUMP: You need to tell them, you need to tell them, even if you need to tell them five times, tell them. They need to learn. Who will they learn if not from the parents?
BEHAR: That`s right.
(CROSSTALK)
LEAKES: There`s two different ways to parent. She parent one way, I parent another. You have children?
SHUTER: I don`t have children.
LEAKES: OK, well, your opinion doesn`t --
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: How do you discipline Donald is what I want to know. A little spanking here and there.
TRUMP: No.
BEHAR: In the corner.
OK, here`s another good story. "People" magazine has revealed that 2011 sexiest man alive is Bradley Cooper. OK. He`s gorgeous, huh? Clearly the editors haven`t seen Ron Paul in a speedo. That`s all I have to say. Where`s that picture? We don`t have that? There he is. Scary. OK. NeNe, is Bradley Cooper really the sexiest man alive?
LEAKES: I don`t know if he`s the sexiest man alive. He`s definitely sexy. I can`t say he`s the sexiest man. We haven`t seen them all yet.
BEHAR: What about you, Rob?
SHUTER: A lot goes into these covers. First of all, they`re in the business of selling magazines. So not only is this guy very sexy, he is a known quantity, he sells magazines. So it doesn`t matter if you`re the best looking guy the world. If you aren`t going to sell copies of "People," you will not be on the cover. Also, I think he has movies coming out. His publicists have been pitching for this. It`s a whole process to get on this very cover.
BEHAR: Exactly, so it`s not that he`s the sexiest man alive.
SHUTER: He`s not -- he`s the sexiest man at the moment who`s going to sell the most magazines, make the most money for people.
BEHAR: Who do you think is the sexiest man alive?
TRUMP: My husband.
BEHAR: We knew you would say that. Let`s say Donald didn`t exist?
TRUMP: I don`t have an answer.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You were saying it was Simon Cowell.
LEAKES: I like Simon. I like Tyler Perry. They`re sexy men, in my opinion.
BEHAR: You just think Simon Cowell`s sexy because he`s rich.
LEAKES: I do not. I love that he`s outspoken. I think that`s kind of sexy.
BEHAR: All right. He`s kind of cute. But what about -- they`re always picking young guys, how about a couple of old guys?
SHUTER: Larry King.
BEHAR: There you go.
OK. All righty, here`s another story. An online petition calling for E channel to cancel Keeping Up with the Kardashians and all other shows relating to the family, already has more than 70,000 signatures. They want that show off the air. They say that it`s because of the vanity, greed, promiscuity and vulgarity. Hello, "The View." Isn`t that what most of television is, vulgar, greedy, vain, promiscuous? I mean, those words apply to every show practically.
LEAKES: You know, I`m a reality star, so I`m kind of against the whole petition thing, I am. I don`t think it`s fair. I think people need to stop living vicariously through other people. They have a reality show, these girls are beautiful, they have their mom is managing them. I don`t see anything wrong with the show being on there. If her marriage didn`t work, it just didn`t work.
BEHAR: Do you think, Melania, this is like a blowback to the fact that Kim was only married for 72 days?
TRUMP: You never know what really goes on, right, until somebody really gives an honest interview, you don`t know how she feels, what was really going on with him, with her. So how we could judge it? If you don`t like the show, don`t watch it. You can change the channel.
BEHAR: That`s true.
SHUTER: That`s the best answer, like don`t sign these petitions, just don`t watch it.
BEHAR: But you know what, look at "Marie Claire" magazine, which came out -- the timing was off on "Marie Claire," because what it came out was an article about how madly in love she was with Kris, how -- and then 72 days later, he`s history.
TRUMP: But those magazines, they shoot, and you give interview like for three, four months before. I did a lot of magazines and I`m still doing it. Before they come out, it`s a long lead. So I guess she was still OK with the marriage, still OK with everything.
LEAKES: I agree.
SHUTER: Which might make us think that it wasn`t fake. Because if she`s going to sit down and do that interview with "Marie Claire," she clearly didn`t know she was going to be breaking up with him, or she wouldn`t have said that.
TRUMP: You never know what he did or what was going on.
BEHAR: We don`t know. That`s why this story has legs and why we keep talking about it. We don`t know what happened. We all want to know what really happened. Until we find out, I will not rest.
SHUTER: Watch E this season.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: The Kardashians were supposed to be on my show. They`re canceling all this media stuff. Why?
SHUTER: I thought you were close with them. (inaudible).
BEHAR: I`m very close.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Especially Khloe. I love Khloe. They were going to come on and they canceled.
SHUTER: Is that why we`re here?
BEHAR: No, not tonight.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: We have a couple more topics. Stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`re back with my panel. Now, Sandra Bullock`s philandering ex-husband, Jesse James, is at it again, reportedly cheating on fiancee Kat Von D with 19 women while they were together. And I think Joyce Kilmer (ph) said it best when he said I think that I shall never see a cheating dog such as thee, from Sandra to Bombshell to Kat Von D, I really don`t care as long as they don`t come near me.
OK. My poetry reading for the day. This Bombshell McGee has come out of the woodwork to tell -- to say that she warned Kat Von D about the 19 women. Taking advice from a woman named Bombshell McGee, first of all, is a little odd.
SHUTER: She didn`t take the advice, she ignored her and jumped into this relationship, got engaged, and found out he was cheating on her.
BEHAR: Do men like him, if they cheat on the first wife, are they going to cheat on the second wife?
LEAKES: I think once a cheater, always a cheater. That`s what I think.
BEHAR: You do? I don`t know about that. Some guys, they cheat on the wife because they fall in love with someone else. They marry the next one and they just stay with them and [ EXPLETIVE DELETED] out of them for the next 25 years.
TRUMP: Everything in the relationship, how is it works, right, and it`s almost like, you know, you never know what happens, day-to-day. You never know about the man, so it could be trust, that only you could rely on and it could only trust yourself as well, know where you are.
BEHAR: Do you have any sympathy, Melania, for women who knowingly cheat? Or any of you? Sympathy for these women?
SHUTER: I think it`s always sad when this happens, but the chance of it happening is pretty high.
TRUMP: I think she knew him before she went into the relationship. She was with him when he was married to Sandra.
SHUTER: That`s right. I believe that`s true. I`m not sure if that`s true. Check that.
(CROSSTALK)
SHUTER: No, he was cheating on other people when he was with Sandra. Not this one. Not this one, no. A different tattooed lady.
TRUMP: But she knew that. She knew that.
BEHAR: She knew his reputation preceded him. Yes. What about Sandra, the best thing that ever happened her was this guy dumping her.
(CROSSTALK)
SHUTER: This story is coming back again. I wanted Sandra just to be left alone and we never speak his name ever again. I feel sad that she must be watching this show and other shows like this--
BEHAR: Probably not. I don`t know, I would think that she`s keeping, you know, like don`t turn the TV on.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I like Sandra Bullock. She`s good.
SHUTER: I like her too.
BEHAR: And she has that lovely little baby that she adopted. Do you have anything to say on this topic?
LEAKES: No, I don`t.
BEHAR: OK. Miley Cyrus has launched a Twitter war after being called fat by the tabloids. She tweeted a photo of an emaciated model saying "by calling girls like me fat, this is what you`re doing to other people," and she showed this picture of this anorexic girl.
You know, I think there is a war against girls going on. This topic irritates me, because the magazines, everything conspires in every industry around here to make girls feel bad about themselves. Do you agree with me?
LEAKES: I do.
SHUTER: Most women are buying these magazines, not men, so women stop hating women, like stop buying the magazines.
BEHAR: We can`t stop, it`s like an addiction of some sort. And people like Anna Wintour, who is the editor of "Vogue," is like the pusher. She is like the pusher. She needs to be put in jail. Here, little girl, look at this picture, look at how hot Melania looks here. Too bad you don`t look like that. You know what I mean? It`s annoying. They`re all tall and skinny, too. Nobody`s chubby, nobody has curly hair, maybe once in a while if they`re really thin.
TRUMP: But that`s a different magazine. "Vogue" is "Vogue," it`s a Bible of fashion. And I think they`re doing a great job. You know, everything has, of course, what they called Miley Cyrus, it`s terrible, it`s bad.
SHUTER: Big girls can be fashionable.
TRUMP: They can, but there are different magazines. "Vogue" an issue -- one-year issue of different shapes. And they put them in, nothing wrong. But really, the big designers --
BEHAR: I am going to start my own magazine, "Big and Fat and Fabulous!" And just have all these chubbies walking around.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Has this helped Miley? Because she was having trouble with her salvia little thing she was into.
SHUTER: She certainly changed the subject and she`s made herself a hero of people like you.
BEHAR: That`s right. You go, Miley! You go, Miley! And she also, this was interesting to me, she tweeted a picture of Marilyn Monroe and she said, "proof that you can be adored by thousands of men even when your thighs touch."
I really think -- I really think that women are appealing to other women with some of this stuff, it`s not about men. I think that men like a curvy women, they like a woman with some meat on her. It`s Other women that make women want to be thin, I think.
SHUTER: There was a survey or (inaudible) once that said the people behind this are fashion designers, and they were saying some of which are gay men and they weren`t designing for real women, they were designing for --
BEHAR: For boys.
SHUTER: Yes.
BEHAR: What do you think of that?
TRUMP: They`re designing for hangers.
BEHAR: That`s true. But I mean, do you think that`s true?
SHUTER: I`m not sure it`s completely true, but there are several gay designers out there who you see their shows, and the people on the runway don`t actually look like women. They do look like--
BEHAR: That`s interesting. So maybe we just need a gay designer who`s a chubby chaser.
LEAKES: Oh my God.
BEHAR: I have one more story here. I think I`ll go to this story. Ricky Gervais is now going to be hosting the Golden Globes. Now, remember when he did those faux pas things he was doing? Nice, right?
SHUTER: And the ratings were through the roof. So let`s be honest here. He`s coming back for one reason. He can upset as many people as he wants as long as he doesn`t upset the viewer.
BEHAR: I think it`s great he`s coming back, don`t you?
LEAKES: I do think it`s great he`s coming back.
BEHAR: What about Billy Crystal?
LEAKES: What about him?
BEHAR: He`s hosting the Oscars.
LEAKES: He is.
(CROSSTALK)
LEAKES: I wanted to see Eddie Murphy do it.
BEHAR: You did?
LEAKES: Yeah.
SHUTER: How about Kim Kardashian.
BEHAR: Kim Kardashian, I like that.
OK, thank you guys very much. And you can see NeNe on Real Housewives of Atlanta Sundays at 9 pm on Bravo. We`ll be right back. I`ll be back with Melania. Melania is going to talk about stuff now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Melania Trump, wife of the Donald. Although you were telling me before the break that the Donald, it`s like a foreigner`s way of saying something, right?
TRUMP: It`s a big thing when you say the Donald. It means he`s bigger, bigger than life.
BEHAR: Exactly, yes. They never say it about a woman. I`ve never heard the Joy.
TRUMP: The Melania?
BEHAR: The Melania, I`ve never heard that. No. So you`re selling your jewelry on QVC, which -- your jewelry is very nice. It looks real, I have to say. When I look at it. Like you know, I look at this ring and I say, that looks like a real diamond ring. That`s good.
TRUMP: Well, I`m wearing tonight -- I`m wearing this is tomorrow and tomorrow morning show and tomorrow night. It`s the ring, the earrings, the watch, everything is very affordable, under $200.
BEHAR: Yes. Very good. I mean, you`re an entrepreneur now.
TRUMP: Yes, and it`s fun, you know? I have my own business now, and when everybody is out of the house I`m doing my business, and it`s very creative. I like to design, I love beautiful things, and women across the country love the jewelry because I see the way they respond, and the feedback and the way they buy. And -- beautiful watches.
BEHAR: Women love a good-looking watch.
TRUMP: They do.
BEHAR: Let me ask you about Donald for a second, because he has become like the Dalai Lama of the Republican Party. They all go to him for some -- I don`t know, like the Godfather, almost, you know? How do you feel about all that? Do they come and go in your house?
TRUMP: They come in the office. Sometimes they come in the house. And you know, he`s the one that everybody wants to support them.
BEHAR: Does he like all the candidates? Does he have a special one that he likes in the Republican Party?
TRUMP: Some he likes more than others, of course. And he still didn`t make the decision. And he`s very passionate about the country. And it`s a big mess. The country is in a big mess.
BEHAR: Listen, he was the first one to tell me at "The View" that George Bush was a disaster. I hope he`s not going to endorse somebody who is another disaster like George Bush was.
TRUMP: I don`t think -- you know, he`s watching it closely. He really knows what, you know, what`s going on, and he`s really into it. So I don`t know what will happen. I don`t know. It will be in a few weeks that if he endorses somebody or not.
BEHAR: He`s not going to run -- is he going to run? He gave that up now?
TRUMP: He`s still thinking about it.
BEHAR: Oh, really.
TRUMP: He said, I will make the decision in a few weeks, and because he really wanted to see who is out there, the right person to run this country. Because it needs to go--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: There are 13 more debates coming up, so he can jump in at any point.
TRUMP: Well, that`s right.
BEHAR: You tell him I said hello.
TRUMP: I will.
BEHAR: OK. Thank you, Melania. And by the way, Melania will be showcasing her jewelry on QVC tomorrow from 6:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m.
TRUMP: No, 6:00 a.m. and 8:00 p.m.
BEHAR: And 8:00 p.m. Oh --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I thought it was all day.
TRUMP: No.
BEHAR: OK. Check it out. Thank you for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
