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Joy Behar Page
Penn State Sex Scandal; Suing Citizen Cain?
Aired December 06, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, accused child rapist, Jerry Sandusky gives another interview and admits he`s attracted to young people. Joy wants to know why his lawyer keeps letting him speak to the press.
Then Michele Bachmann is called out on her stance on homosexuality by a little kid. We`ll show you the video.
Plus we`ll revisit one of Joy`s favorite interviews, her chat with Martin Short.
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Jerry Sandusky just can`t keep his big mouth shut. The former Penn State football coach is charged with 40 counts of sexual abuse on children. As the first hearing in the case approaches, Sandusky continues to throw himself on the mercy of the court of public opinion.
Joining me to talk about this case and others are Dan Abrams, founder and CEO of Mediaite and an ABC legal news analyst; and Chris Cuomo, the chief law and justice correspondent for ABC News. Ok guys.
Most defendants keep their mouths shut. This guy is on TV. The lawyer is with him. What is with him? Why is he doing this?
DAN ABRAMS, FOUNDER & CEO, MEDIAITE: I blame the lawyer. I mean if the lawyer is letting him do this, the lawyer at the least should gone through all the questions with him. Right and say you`re going to get asked this. You`re going to get asked that. One of the questions you`re going to get asked is about being attracted to boys --
BEHAR: Yes.
ABRAMS: Particularly the second time you get asked that question.
BEHAR: Right.
ABRAMS: And both times he waivers on his answer. The second -- the most recent interview, his lawyer has to step in and say, wait a minute, you meant you`re not sexually attracted to boys. When you`re starting to give nuances on what the definition of attraction is, you ought not be doing that interview.
BEHAR: Ok. Can I show you that tape?
CHRIS CUOMO, CHIEF LAW AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT, ABC NEWS: Please.
BEHAR: Before we continue. Let`s watch that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JERRY SANDUSKY, ACCUSED OF RAPING YOUNG BOYS: If I say, no, I`m not attracted to boys, that`s not the truth because I`m attracted to young people -- boys, girls.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, but not sexually. You`re attracted because you enjoy spending time --
SANDUSKY: Right, I enjoy -- that`s what I was trying to say -- I enjoy spending time with young people. I enjoy spending time with people. I mean my two favorite groups are the elderly and the young.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Both of whom can`t run away from him too easily.
CUOMO: My first reaction is obviously he shouldn`t do the interview. And if he`s going to do the interview, he should have done it with me. So that`s my first reaction.
ABRAMS: Which would have been worst.
CUOMO: He needed to sit across from somebody in these types of interviews where you know that you`re going to be put out there in your best light. The problem for this guy is that he is using nuance, he`s using subtlety on something that`s very black and white. I think it`s a legitimate answer. I think it`s an honest answer. I think he`s trying to say -- I get you. I get you. It`s the wrong answer but I think what he`s trying to say is I love kids.
ABRAMS: I understand what he`s trying to say but why the word -- when the word "attracted" comes up and you`re accused of these crimes.
CUOMO: Well, that word -- it`s a bad word.
ABRAMS: You distance yourself.
CUOMO: It`s a bad word.
ABRAMS: You say, I don`t want anything to do with this.
CUOMO: He should have said liked kids, "I enjoy their company."
ABRAMS: Yes.
CUOMO: "It`s nice to have them around".
ABRAMS: And no, I`m not attracted to them.
CUOMO: I know. It`s a bad answer.
BEHAR: Maybe he`s -- do you think he`s delusional, this guy? I mean he goes out there. He doesn`t really understand what he`s saying because he`s in a deluded state.
CUOMO: Here`s the thing. We see people like this every once in a while. He is detached in some way from the reality of his circumstances. Ok. This guy is in a fight for his life whether he knows it or not.
Now, that may be a motivation for him to come forward and talk because he feels he`s in the fight of his life. And one thing we have to remember, Mr. Amendola, his attorney, he`s putting him out there. It`s his decision. It`s Mr. Sandusky`s attorney --
BEHAR: Would you? Would you do that?
CUOMO: No. No good attorney is going to say I would do that especially in light of what we`re seeing as a result.
ABRAMS: That`s right. Right.
BEHAR: Would you.
ABRAMS: No. No way. I mean you have to -- it has to be able help you at the least in the court of public opinion because you immediately know you could hurt yourself because you`re putting things on the record that can and will be used against you later.
CUOMO: Right.
ABRAMS: So you better do a cost benefit analysis where the benefits so significantly outweigh the costs. And here you have costs and more costs. And you have to say to yourself, why is he doing it?
BEHAR: So these remarks that he`s saying. That was to the "New York Times"; those are admissible in the trial?
ABRAMS: Absolutely.
BEHAR: Although I don`t know if there`s ever going to be a trial because there is a statute of limitation on these kinds of crimes -- which is outrageous.
ABRAMS: Well, not for the ones who are testifying. There`s a preliminary hearing coming up.
BEHAR: Yes. With the age of the alleged victims, right?
ABRAMS: And they all may testify. These are all people where they`ve charged in this case because they don`t believe the statute of limitations is an issue. Pennsylvania changed the law in 2002 to make it so that anyone under the age of 30 who says that they were abused can come forward.
BEHAR: These people are in their 20s?
ABRAMS: I don`t know exactly how old all of them are, some are certainly in their 20s.
BEHAR: That`s great.
ABRAMS: Don`t worry in terms of these 40 counts about the statute of limitations. You never know, there might be an argument from the defense with regard to that.
CUOMO: Right. They`re going to argue the other way. Amendola is also sending a bad message by saying, I can`t wait to cross-examine them. That`s always very dangerous in the law because when you say you want to go after that alleged victims, that`s a little tricky
But let`s also point a finger at somebody else and I`ll do it this way. Because the media is all over Sandusky and everybody like him to speak. They are hit with waves of people saying, we can help you on this, you should come on with us, we`ll show another side. So it`s a lot of pressure
ABRAMS: But the truth is -- and we don`t like to admit this as lawyers. But if he`s actually innocent, if he was actually innocent, and had nothing to do with this and all this was totally fabricated, he should probably go public.
CUOMO: I still wouldn`t put him out.
BEHAR: Now, one of the alleged abuse events happened on the premises of Penn State. Why aren`t they liable for all of that? And why aren`t they -- you know.
CUOMO: Liable means that they could be sued for money which may very happen down the road. Criminally responsible is a different thing.
BEHAR: Well, which would they be?
CUOMO: They could be both. Right? More likely civilly liable. It`s tough to charge an institution.
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: But remember there have been two -- wait a minute. There are two Penn State officials who are now charged with crimes.
CUOMO: And that`s the institution.
BEHAR: Yes. Right. Athletic director and a former senior vice president of the university.
ABRAMS: Right, charged with perjury in connection with a grand jury testimony.
BEHAR: Yes, that`s right.
ABRAMS: So that`s really significant. The fact that they`re going after these very senior members, the Penn State -- these were big deals at Penn State. They`re coming at them and saying, you lied under oath. And you also didn`t report, as is required by Pennsylvania law.
BEHAR: What about this other guy, McQueary, who supposedly saw him raping the child in the locker room.
CUOMO: I think we disagree about McQueary.
BEHAR: Why were no charges filed against him?
ABRAMS: What are you going to charge him with? I mean he`s the one who actually brought this all to light. You can say he brought it to light too late. You can say that didn`t do enough. Fair enough and those are absolutely fair comments to make about him.
But he`s the reason that these guys got charged with perjury, he`s the reason that these charges were filed is because he came forward and said, "I told them about this, I reported it." Now people are going to say, you didn`t do enough. Nothing happened.
But I don`t blame McQueary as much as these guys who were charged who allegedly lied to the grand jury. And I think are the ones --
BEHAR: There`s plenty of blame to go around here. He was not a kid when he saw that.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: The prosecutors, the investigators, they love him. They say he`s a hero, he came forward; everybody else was trying to cover himself, he didn`t. That`s the prosecutor`s side. You have to give him that.
The problem here is that McQueary`s alleged experience touches on what disgusts everybody here, which is the bystander phenomena.
BEHAR: Right.
CUOMO: The idea that you could walk by what you say you walked by and do nothing and anything that allows that man to leave with that child whom you are accusing of that action is not enough. And that puts stink on McQueary. That said, the prosecutors said if not for him, none of us would be here.
ABRAMS: Legally if someone`s dying on the side of the road then that --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: But it`s true. It`s not even moral. It`s illegal. It`s not legal. You don`t have a legal responsibility. That`s a bad rule.
ABRAMS: All right. So maybe then change the law.
CUOMO: That`s what I`m saying like we have to live by a different standard.
ABRAMS: But Joy asked if he would get charged.
CUOMO: No he`s not going to get charged, he`s their hero. He`s the one who testifies --
ABRAMS: And the reason he`s not going to get charged is because it is a legal matter or he has no duty to protect unless you`re a parent --
CUOMO: Only moral.
Remember Kitty Genovese is the big case, right, in the `60s, where everybody saw her and nobody did anything. But I`m saying no one`s going to love you for that. The prosecutor may love you because you helped make the case but they`re not going to love you for not doing anything.
BEHAR: It does shed a light. It sort of puts a light on that type of behavior and how people just don`t act when they know they should.
CUOMO: You have to. You have to. These are kids. You have to. That`s all that matters.
BEHAR: Ok. Let me change the topic because Herman Cain is still in the news because he keeps denying charges brought by all these women that are saying that he harassed them and this other one who say she had an affair with him, Miss White. Can he sue them?
ABRAMS: Sure he could.
BEHAR: For bringing these charges. What is he going to do?
ABRAMS: He could keep -- say anything that you said about me in public not in court documents, that is a lie and libeled me and defamed me, he could sue. It`s not going to happen. He`s not going sue.
BEHAR: But he`s calling them liars.
ABRAMS: Of course he is.
BEHAR: Why don`t they sue him?
ABRAMS: It`s easier for them to sue him than for him to sue them. But the reason if you were him, you don`t sue is it brings more attention to all this. What do you need? What do you need this for? You really want to go to trial on this issue.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Which happens to be the problem with being a public person. Let`s just look at this all pro-Cain for a moment.
BEHAR: Yes, ok.
CUOMO: If he`s right about everything, it`s tough being a public official, because they`re going to come out. They`re going to say things. People like me in the media are going to respond it to. We`re going to do very little checking of it and then you have a lot of stink on you that you can`t get off as a public person.
B; Do you believe though that he had a 13 year relationship with this woman because she needed money. He was giving her money and that there was no sexual favors involved in that. I don`t believe that. Do you believe it? I`m just a cynic maybe.
CUOMO: You`re not a cynic. You like to have an opinion about these kinds of things, you do.
BEHAR: What do you mean, I like it? I have. I admit.
CUOMO: You can have it but you like to -- you often don`t even get half of the facts out of my mouth and you have already formed a very good opinion that my mother believes with unqualified love.
BEHAR: That is so not true. That is completely a libelous statement. And I`m going to sue you for that.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: If not it would be slander because it`s coming out of my mouth. I didn`t write it down. I may write in an e-mail later.
BEHAR: All right. Slander -- it`s a slanderous statement.
CUOMO: I love you and I have to because my mother gets very upset if I say anything other than that. I`m a big fan of yours for all the right reasons.
You have a tougher job than we do.
BEHAR: Because?
CUOMO: Because you have to figure out, here is where I`m going to be on this and I`m going to stay there. Dan has a gift of figuring out how we look at this analytically. I am relieved of both of those burdens because I just have ask the questions and I don`t have to believe anything about it.
BEHAR: Yes.
CUOMO: And in a situation like that I chose not to believe because nothing`s proven.
ABRAMS: Well, I tell you I mean, and because I can offer a little bit of analysis. I mean, it`s hard to believe right? As a human being, a person.
BEHAR: Of course that`s right.
ABRAMS: Of course it`s hard to believe.
BEHAR: Right.
ABRAMS: That this is going on. It`s not impossible to believe. It`s not that it`s -- it`s -- but in particular when you listen to her tell her story, it makes it that much more difficult to accept because she --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Especially coming on the heels of all those harassment allegations.
CUOMO: That`s right and why would she come forward? It`s not great for her life.
BEHAR: Ok I`ve got to go.
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: Some would say for the money.
BEHAR: All right, you`ll get the subpoena in the morning, Chris. Thanks very much. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: At a recent South Carolina book signing, Michele Bachmann got an earful from a shy 8-year-old kid named Elijah. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MICHELE BACHMANN (R-MN), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What`s your name? Elijah, really good to meet you. Do you have something you want to say. You can say it louder. No, that`s all right. You said it but, you know, I think my ears were too far away. You want to come a little closer?
(INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ok. That kid -- that kid is lucky it was Bachmann. Newt Gingrich would have put him to work scrubbing toilets.
With me now to talk about this and other pop culture stories in the news are Rachel Sklar, editor-at-large for Medieit.com; John Fugelsang, actor and comedian and currently on the "Stephanie Miller Sexy Liberal Comedy Tour"; and Michelle Collins, comedienne and managing editor of Bestweekever.tv. Welcome to you guy, to this, to this that look on her face was priceless, was it not?
RACHEL SKLAR, MEDIAITE.COM: Oh my God.
BEHAR: I mean, what do you think went through Michele Bachmann`s mind?
SKLAR: Clearly nothing. She said nothing, she had nothing to say.
BEHAR: Do you think that she was embarrassed by the question?
JOHN FUGELSANG, THE STEPHANIE MILLER SEXY LIBERAL COMEDY TOUR: I think she was. There were cameras on her. And it`s awkward to begin with because Michele Bachmann is opposed to gay marriage and in one. But --
BEHAR: Why do you say that? Why do you say that?
FUGELSANG: Well, I`ll just say that every time Marcus Bachmann gives a speech, I feel like I should come out to my parents.
MICHELLE COLLINS, COMEDIAN: Marcus Bachmann has like an adorable gay lion face. I don`t know if he`s a gay man but he`s got like a little cat face.
BEHAR: They have a little cat face?
COLLINS: Like a gay lion face.
BEHAR: Well, he`s the one who wants to pray the gay away.
COLLINS: Yes.
BEHAR: And the lady doth protest too much keeps running through my mind.
COLLINS: Right.
FUGELSANG: Yes, I`ll place some federal funds for that as well though. (INAUDIBLE).
BEHAR: Oh yes that --
FUGELSANG: Yes, I`m going to suck the gay out of you. I`m going to suck it out. Let it come up to me. Come up to me, David. Come on to me, I cast thee out. That`s beautiful. I love it. And the greatest thing about it is that this is their form of Christianity despite the fact that Jesus never said a damn thing about gay people.
BEHAR: No.
FUGELSANG: It`s an insult against God to be a homophobe. And that`s the thing about this clip we`re seeing a lot of conservative brothers and sisters very angry because obviously this kid was coached. And when I want to watch somebody coached to repeat lines, I`ll watch Michele Bachmann in a debate.
COLLINS: Yes.
FUGELSANG: But you know what here`s -- then you go like Glenn Beck`s Web site it`s all rage. These evil lesbians forcing this child to push their propaganda. Yes a couple lesbian parents did a tacky thing to protest an evil thing.
BEHAR: They just -- he just asked a simple question the kid really.
COLLINS: Well but he didn`t even, here is my thing he didn`t wait for an answer. I mean, I think he should have stood there.
BEHAR: Yes.
COLLINS: They kind of got him out of there so quickly, that she in a way was given an easy out.
BEHAR: But you know she recently said that this is her quote, "That gay people can get married by the way to a man if you`re a woman and to a woman if you`re a man". Somebody needs to explain what it means to be gay.
(CROSSTALK)
FUGELSANG: Exactly.
SKLAR: She doesn`t need an 8-year-old to explain it to her. She didn`t actually understand this.
FUGELSANG: I mean, it worked for Liza but still -- and the greatest thing -- the fact that this kid didn`t realize. This kid didn`t really understand what he was saying shows that he hasn`t learned how to hate yet.
BEHAR: No.
FUGELSANG: Because being gay is natural, hating gay is the lifestyle choice.
BEHAR: Thank you and with that point I`m going to move on to the next story because it was so beautifully put.
Colin Quinn.
(CROSSTALK)
FUGELSANG: I stole it from Colin Queen.
BEHAR: My -- my pal Colin, I love Colin so much and he`s been tweeting and getting into the story because he`s saying he`s ashamed quote, unquote, "He was ever associated with `Saturday Night Live` after the show aired a controversial skits making fun of the sex abuse scandals at Penn State and Syracuse." Let`s watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was imperative to me that we make sure that nothing like that was going on right here at our program at Central. And I don`t think I`m alone in saying the first person who popped into my head as a potential sexual predator was Coach Burt.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, let`s be honest, Coach Burt has all the tell- tale signs of a sexual predator. I mean, he`s antisocial. Lives with his mom, he`s never had a girlfriend.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: He is just brilliant in that skit. But Colin Quinn will be here Thursday to tell us why he`s so offended. But what do you guys -- too soon, Rachel?
SKLAR: No not at all. I actually -- the funny thing is that I watched that sketch this weekend and I didn`t even think twice about it. I actually thought they did a really good job of pointing out -- not making fun of it but pointing out that this is endemic to an entire culture, it`s not just Penn State but Syracuse as well and who knows where else.
COLLINS: They`re also not making fun of child molestations.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Right, no it`s true.
COLLINS: They`re making fun of the way that Steve Buscemi look, which happens to be kind of like a child molester? And that`s what really, no and I love him. I mean, he`s the best. But you know that`s his thing is he is like budging eyes and you know.
BEHAR: If you`ve seen pictures of child molesters, they look like people that you would know in everyday life.
COLLINS: And they certainly they go this morning Joy I mean, they are -- people look like him all over but I see what you`re saying.
SKLAR: Like do you wear a moustache?
FUGELSANG: Well, yes.
COLLINS: Handsome.
FUGELSANG: The sketch itself doesn`t make fun of pederasts, it doesn`t make fun Penn State. It makes fun of this crucible like hysteria people get into of accusing people.
BEHAR: Exactly.
FUGELSANG: So I don`t really understand especially because -- and I love Colin. Colin is a great guy.
BEHAR: Yes.
FUGELSANG: But if you look at his Twitter feed, he made plenty of Sandusky jokes himself when it first leaked. So I don`t really understand where the allegation`s coming from.
BEHAR: Did he really?
FUGELSANG: That`s a guy who wear the trench coat around playgrounds I was offended by the sketch --
BEHAR: Ok wait a minute this is what he tweeted. "We like to push the envelope but never to where it made people go whoa." He says about his time. "Don`t get me wrong there`s a place for that kind of humor. It`s called the garbage disposal." And then Seth Myers tweeted, "I wrote the Coach Burt sketch Colin come out and fight like a man."
So we`ll see. I mean Colin`s coming Thursday. I`m dying to talk to him about him. Ok. More on pop culture after a quick break. They`re not leaving yet.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my panel.
Dr. Phil admits the biggest regret of his life is when he helped perform a vasectomy on himself at 29 years old. Reminds me of the time I helped with my own mammogram and got a hernia from trying to lift the left one? What can I tell you, Thelma is heavier than Louise. Ok, you know.
Now most men cringe at the thought of a vasectomy. You give it to yourself. Michelle, would you?
COLLINS: I wouldn`t give one to Dr. Phil, certainly, myself. I wouldn`t want to even know what`s going on down there. I find it ironic that a man who looks so much like a baby would be so against having another one. The guy is like -- I pictured Dr. Phil`s sperm to have little moustaches on it, he`s so spermy?
BEHAR: John, why was he in a hurry to get this vasectomy and there was no nurse present so he helped the guy.
FUGELSANG: No nurse present -- you know, I`m going to have to give myself one to get the imagery out of my head, actually. The thing is also -- it`s really a hallmark of a great psychologist when you give yourself a vasectomy and not consult your wife first, by the way. I want to put that out.
But yes. And then he realized that his wife was unhappy when he overheard her talking about it to someone else. So really, Phil, if you`re watching -- work on your communication with your family, Phil.
SKLAR: Even as a doctor, he basically opened a broom closet and grabbed a coat hanger.
COLLINS: That is a different procedure Rachel.
BEHAR: That is a different procedure.
Ok. Let`s do another story real fast. During the CNN special filmed at his house, the great Larry King made it very clear what he wants to happen after his death. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, FORMER CNN HOST: I want to be frozen. On the hope that they`ll find whatever I died of and bring me back.
CONAN O`BRIEN, TALK SHOW HOST: You would like to be frozen? This is news.
KING: The only hedging of a bet.
O`BRIEN: I just want to make sure that we stick with the headline here which is that you wish to be frozen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you want to live forever?
KING: Yes. You bet your ass.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: It`s said sad they will thaw him out 100 years from now and Dick Clark will still be hosting New Year`s Eve. That`s what`s sad. Is there any surprise here that Larry wants to be frozen? He loves his life.
FUGELSANG: There are less public ways to tell your wife you don`t want to spend eternity with her. But you know, the bright side about it is that when they do thaw him many years in the future, first our life expectancies will be so much longer, he`ll be a young 85-year-old whippersnapper.
BEHAR: That`s true.
FUGELSANG: And secondly, there`ll be a whole new pool of potential wives to marry.
BEHAR: Would you want that. Would you want to be frozen?
SKLAR: I don`t really know. I can`t get past the fact that that just would ruin my appetite if I was having dinner with him.
COLLINS: I would love to meet frozen Disney. Joy, I`ve told you before.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Disney. Oh, yes. He was supposedly frozen.
FUGELSANG: He was.
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: I will say this, Larry wanted to be frozen because he says that maybe in 100 years they`ll come up for a cure for whatever it is that killed him. I don`t think there ever is a cure for being 300 years old.
BEHAR: Thank you, guys. If you`re in Fort Lauderdale, check out John Fugelsang. He`s performing at the Parker Play House with the Sexy Liberal Comedy Tour. I didn`t say it. I said nothing.
We`ll be right back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Next up, which Republican candidate is most mentally fit to be president? Bethany Marshall psychoanalyzes the GOP field.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: The president of the United States is very powerful, which means we need to trust that he`s psychologically fit and stable enough to make the right decisions in case of a crisis, right? We don`t want him to invade the country because he might have daddy issues. With me now to put the current Republican candidates on the shrink`s couch and also President Obama is psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall. Hey, Bethany, how are you?
MARSHALL: Hey, Joy! Great. I `m looking forward to shrinking our GOP presidential candidates.
BEHAR: OK. I think we`ll -- we`ll try to touch on Obama, too, because he has his things, too. So, let`s start with ...
MARSHALL: Great.
BEHAR: Let`s start with Newt Gingrich, OK? He`s been -- he has this - - the profile, he`s been married three times, he seems to be a serial adulterer, also he`s hypocritical because he was trying to impeach President Clinton for his affair with Monica Lewinsky while he was having his own affair. OK, those are the facts. What do you make of that?
MARSHALL: Well, first of all, I love the fact that he used to be very divisive and he tore the country apart, but now he wants the job of pulling the country together.
BEHAR: Yeah. Yeah.
MARSHALL: All right, that`s so paradoxical. It reminds me of the abusive husband who prays on his wife`s fears, divides her from her friends, is pathologically jealous and then when she`s about to leave the relationship, he says, oh, let`s go to marital therapy and pull things together because I know what`s right for a relationship.
BEHAR: Oh, I see.
MARSHALL: But would you said about -- see, what I mean. He`s going to repeat that in his relationships everywhere. What you said about the serial cheater is very important. Because whenever his wife displeased him, he just replaced her with another newer better model, a trophy wife. And isn`t that what he`s done with us, the American public? We weren`t giving him enough, we just pleased him, so now he`s -- he`s replaced us with a corporate job, he`s going from a job with us to a trophy job, so he`s cheating on us, too, in a sense. And now he wants to worm his way back into our hearts.
BEHAR: OK. All right, now. He recently -- Another point about him and then we will move on. He recently said that poor kids could work as janitors. Let`s watch that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NEWT GINGRICH: Young children who are poor ought to learn how to go to work. It would be great if inner city schools and poor neighborhood schools actually hired the children to do things, some of the things they could do would be work in the library, work in the front office, some of them, frankly, could be janitorial.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: But he wants to put kids to work when they`re very young, it sounds like, so that they`re going to learn to work. We have child labor laws.
MARSHALL: Why just ...
BEHAR: Yeah.
MARSHALL: Why just poor kids? Why did he single them out?
BEHAR: Exactly.
MARSHALL: Why not rich kids as well?
BEHAR: Why not his kids?
MARSHALL: And it tells me -- why not his kids? And it tells me that he does not know what is developmentally appropriate. A nine-year-old working as a janitor cleaning up everybody else`s crap, what is that going to put into the child and how is that going to make the child feel about himself? It`ll be terrible. So, children are commodities just like the American people are commodities, just like his wives were commodities and he moves them around like chess pieces on a chess board so that he can prop up his own position, look better and reinforce his own power.
BEHAR: OK. Next up, let`s talk about Mitt Romney, now he is not a serial cheater, he is a serial flip-flopper? What does that tell you, you know? What does that tell you? All that he keeps changing his position. And it`s on tape. Everybody can see the flip-flopping that he`s done over the years.
MARSHALL: OK. Here`s the deal with Mitt. Mitt grew up in a super religious environment that valued giving, being good, benefiting society, which is wonderful, but often people like that develop what`s called a false personality configuration. They have a super pleasing conforming self -- that they put as a front to everybody else in the world and that`s why they seem so nice. But because of that, they don`t know who they really are. They`re not tethered to themselves and their own convictions and that`s why they flip-flop all the time.
BEHAR: So, I don`t think that he would make a great president in that case, because, you know, George Bush famously called himself the decider. So, this guy is like the un-decider. I mean neither position is -- makes me happy to tell you the truth.
MARSHALL: This isn`t true.
BEHAR: Because one is stuck in something and the other one is wishy- washy and doesn`t know what he`s saying. You need somebody in the middle.
MARSHALL: But there`s a difference between ...
BEHAR: Go ahead.
MARSHALL: Yeah, there is a difference between having religious conviction and being dogmatic. All right, and sometimes those people don`t know themselves very well, or somebody who uses religious conviction as a cover-up for not knowing themselves. And one of the things we saw recently, is he had some slips in terms of his rage or anger ...
BEHAR: Yes.
MARSHALL: ... and sometimes people who have a super nice, super sickly sweet exterior are covering up for rageful angry interior that they`re not well acquainted with.
BEHAR: OK. You know what? I`m glad you brought that up because I want to show people that tape where he does lose it. We see Mitt Romney as a very controlled kind of guy and that in this interview he reveals a little something about himself. Let`s watch that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS: So, Governor, you did say on camera and other places that at times you saw it would be a model for the nation.
ROMNEY: You`re wrong, Bret.
BAIERE: No, no.
ROMNEY: No, the tape out there keep -- continue to read the tape.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: OK, so he`s a little touchy when he`s confronted with this particular thing that he does. So, a little anger issues, what do you say there?
MARSHALL: He`s a tad bit touchy. People who are super conforming easily feel diminished. So, when someone criticizes them, they feel deflated, when they feel deflated they feel attacked, when they feel attacked, they go on the attack. So, that re-enforces my theory that there`s an ultra conforming personality, it`s like putting a cake in the oven at too high a temperature, it cooks so quickly that the outside looks nice and crispy, but then it`s kind of all gooey on the inside, it`s not fully formed. That`s why he flip-flops ...
BEHAR: OK.
MARSHALL: He`s not a fully formed self.
BEHAR: OK, now. Let`s talk about President Obama so we can talk - because he`s also running again in 2012. And he -- the president to me, whom I like very much. He seems to be a very good father, a good husband. He seems -- when I met him and Michelle Obama, the one thing I thought was these are sane people, these are sane, they`re not crazy. But he does seem very controlled in his attacks on the GOP recently chastising them for not passing his jobs bill. He said, maybe they just couldn`t understand the whole thing all at once so we`re going to break it up into bite-sized pieces so they can take a thoughtful approach to this legislation. A little snarky, but he seems to be ...
MARSHALL: A little ...
BEHAR: ... the way he says things like that where he`s putting them down like they`re a bunch of idiots, basically is what he`s saying, but he says it in this calm way. What do you think about it? Is he suppressing his anger? Do we have to worry about him, too?
MARSHALL: Yeah, when I hear -- Obama, what comes to mind is suppressed anger or suppressed rage. We have a term in my field that`s called "isolation of affect." It`s when you have a feeling and then you isolate it to the back of your mind. Now, what`s problematic about that is that rage and anger can be extremely organizing, helpful and useful in pushing our agenda forward. We all need positive aggression in our lives to push back, set our agenda, set our schedule with other people, assert ourselves appropriately. But if he is suppressing that anger, then he cannot use it as an organizing force in his life. Also, his -- this may have an inner generational component. His mother was abandoned by his father and she may have felt suppressed rage. And sometimes minorities are afraid, if they really come out with their true anger, that it`s going to be distorted ...
BEHAR: Right.
MARSHALL: ... that they`re just the angry underdogs, so he may be reacting against that.
BEHAR: So, he may not be able to be -- really show his anger even if it`s an integrated kind of anger because he cannot show the public the angry black man stereotype. Everybody will turn on him for that. So, he`s got a bit of a dilemma.
MARSHALL: Exactly.
BEHAR: Yeah, that`s a problem. OK. Herman Cain has left the race, but he`s still fresh in our mind with his alleged 13-year affair and allegations of sexual misconduct from four women. Now, we could mention him briefly, because he`s really gone, he`s out of the picture. But this guy actually thought in his delusional mind, I think that he could run for president. Where did he come up with this? Didn`t he think he would look into this stuff?
MARSHALL: Well, isn`t that the definition of grandiosity ...
BEHAR: Yes.
MARSHALL: That is associated with narcissism. And he is just a petri dish full of psychopathology. You know what I love about Herman Cain?
BEHAR: That`s so good.
MARSHALL: He said ...
BEHAR: Yes.
MARSHALL: He said he wasn`t going to decide whether or not to step down until he had a chance to talk to his wife. Why didn`t he talk to her when he was having a 13 year affair? Because people like him operate like pathological liars. They use words to rearrange reality like you and I rearrange furniture in a room. He didn`t think he was doing anything wrong because he lacks a conscience. In the moment, it wasn`t wrong. He`s not tethered and attached to the people around him and in a sense of like pathological narcissism, where the person feels like they`ve played by heir own rules rather than -- and the rules of society and that they deserve reward without achievement.
BEHAR: OK. All right, Bethany. I think we`ve pretty much nailed all of them. They all should really be in therapy. My opinion is every presidential candidate should have ten years of psychotherapy before he even says he`s going to be in the race. That`s my opinion. Thank you very much. We`ll be right back.
MARSHALL: Thank you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN SHORT, ACTOR/COMEDIAN: I can`t believe it is a white Christmas. I mean, it can`t be much more perfect, I must say. Thank you, Bing. As if he had anything to do with it. I bet in a way he did. Oh, this is insane. I have to get to sleep. It is like torture. What if I woke up in the morning and I found out my stocking was full? I think I would be found dead from excitement. Okay. That`s it. I have to go downstairs to see if anything has happened yet. Get to bed!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: I guess I`m not the only one excited about Santa. That is the character Ed Grimly from the classic Second City TV, a show that has spawned so many comedy greats, including the fabulous Martin Short, who is with me tonight. Hi, Marty.
SHORT: Hello, how are you?
BEHAR: I love you. I really do, I think you are just the funniest thing, and I loved your Broadway show, and everything, and I`m just taken with you.
SHORT: Well, thank you very much. You are atwitter.
BEHAR: I am atwitter.
SHORT: Well, I have a little crush on you, too.
BEHAR: Well, this is getting nauseating now. But you know --
SHORT: What do you mean now? It was nauseating in three seconds.
BEHAR: Exactly, well you know, the two of us are talk show host people.
SHORT: Yes.
BEHAR: You sat in for Larry or did you sit in with Larry? I don`t know what happened there.
SHORT: I sat in with Larry, but I did it as Jiminy Glick.
BEHAR: Yes, so it was just a -- so can you do an impression of Larry King?
SHORT: Not really. Obviously, I can`t. You know, I don`t -- I have done a lot of impressions particularly like filmed impressions, but what I would have them for about a minute, like, I would have the iPod and go, and let`s shoot it. And I would be suddenly Paul Anka singing "oh my darling don`t you know by now" but you know, you lose it ten minutes later. So I could do Larry King, but I`d need to work on it.
BEHAR: OK, now when you were a kid, I`m interested in comedians when they were children? Were you a wacky kid? What were you like?
SHORT: I think I was a funny kid. I fooled around in school. If the teacher was weak and vulnerable, and if they were they strict and in control, I was just as good as gold because you know; who wanted to get sent to the principal`s and gets your parents over.
BEHAR: Did you ever want to be a teacher?
SHORT: I want -- no. I wanted to be a doctor.
BEHAR: A doctor? An MD.
SHORT: Yes. I was in pre-meds for two years, but then I realized that everyone else in the class liked science, and I was just a fan of "Quincy" and that was not enough. It was not enough. You need more for life.
BEHAR: Yes, yes, yes.
SHORT: For a life.
BEHAR: You do. But someone told me that you created a fantasy variety show in your house.
SHORT: I did.
BEHAR: On Saturday night.
SHORT: I had an applause record from Sinatra at the Sands. I had looped at the end, and all of the people applauding, yeah, Frank. I put those all together, and had my own. So I had a variety show on NBC every other Tuesday which left me time to have imaginary film career, and I had the goose neck lamp, because even then I knew you know I needed lighting. And I had my applause record, I`d have you know Tony Bennett would come on, forget your troubles, come on, get happy and I would do the applause with the records. And then I`d sing a medley of songs that weren`t nominated, let`s say. And then I`d read from the Playboy magazine and have a hard- hitting interview. Then we had that section in there
BEHAR: Well, did your family encourage you?
(CROSSTALK)
SHORT: They were concerned. My brother, Michael, I used to have a rocking chair in my room and the arm was broken. And I had a tube of glue to fix it. And he sincerely went to my parents and said, look, he is sniffing that glue. He is not a normal child. People are outside playing road hockey, you know, and he is "weather wise such a coo coo day" -- I can see that from the window. I am concerned.
BEHAR: Well, it is very King of Comedy, you know, the Scorsese movie. It has a little tinge of that.
SHORT: Do you know what the weird part of it though, is I have three kids -- And you always wonder what --
BEHAR: How old are they?
SHORT: 25, 23, 20.
BEHAR: Are they ashamed of you or proud of you?
SHORT: Interesting question, doctor. No, they love dada.
BEHAR: They love daddy.
SHORT: Daddy mail boy they call me. But I -- you wonder, what will they ultimately should do -- and even as a kid, when I was up in my attic doing these shows, I still wanted to be a doctor. Nobody said, hey, maybe you should go into show business.
BEHAR: Why is that?
SHORT: Maybe it was Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, and not Manhattan, or maybe because it seemed like a fulfilling fantasy life.
BEHAR: Well, I was in Brooklyn doing the same sort of thing as a kid, and nobody told me to go into show business. They can`t see it.
SHORT: You know Frank Sinatra once said of the father that he was always there to piss on his dreams.
BEHAR: Oh, he was a bitter guy.
SHORT: And no, junior,
BEHAR: Oh junior. I think the father -
SHORT: No, I`m kidding -
BEHAR: It`s the father you are talking about.
SHORT: Of course. The barber. I`m on the barber side.
BEHAR: And also you were going if be a social worker, which I found was fascinating about you. So you have had many neither dreams all of them nor related to show business except the one. I mean a doctor, social worker, all of this sort of civil service.
SHORT: Well, I think it was tied to people. I think it was tied to interacting with people. I don`t think show business seemed like a realistic option.
BEHAR: That`s true, you know. It doesn`t to anybody.
SHORT: Yes.
BEHAR: Except crazy people like us. Now the Second City group is celebrating 50 --
SHORT: 50 years.
BEHAR: Holy molly. I mean, some of the people that have come out of there are Robert Kline, Joan Rivers, Bill Murray, Stephen Colbert, Steve Carell, Tina Fey,
SHORT: John Belushi, the Cast of SCTV.
BEHAR: Elaine May and Mike Nickels, two of the most brilliant from that group, don`t you think?
SHORT: Pretty astounding.
BEHAR: Pretty astounding.
(CROSSTALK)
SHORT: Yes, right there. That was the influence for me when I was a kid. Those two.
BEHAR: Those two? Yes. And also John Candy and John Belushi, Dan Aykroyd, and a lot of people, right?
SHORT: Yes.
BEHAR: And they will be reunited in some little thing?
SHORT: Well, no, it is the 50th anniversary in Chicago at Second City and Friday night we are going the do two shows a reunion for the first time in the States of the cast of SC TV. And this is to benefit the alumni foundation we started to help anyone involved in Second City through the years who has financial problems or medical problems, particularly, you know, in Canada we have socialized medicine, in the United States you don`t. So actors get into trouble, you know.
BEHAR: In this country.
SHORT: Yes.
BEHAR: So the Canadians have to help us.
SHORT: Well, you know, since I was 12, we had socialized medicine in Canada. It wasn`t until Glenn Beck told me that there was a problem with it that I started to -- I mean, we never had an issue.
BEHAR: I know. Only -- Americans like to say the Canadian system; we have to wait in line. You have to wait in line here too.
SHORT: That`s hilarious. I`ve had people forget that I`m Canadian and at dinners and they`ll say, you know in Canada, they`ll have to line up. And I`m like, come on.
BEHAR: You`re a witness to the entire system.
SHORT: Rush Limbaugh, those guys. That`s Joe the Plumber with a community college degree.
BEHAR: OK, we`ll be around here for another segment with Martin Shorts, don`t go away, OK. All right.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know you. You always want to do the right thing. I get it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you are asking me to do nothing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. But I need you to wait.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That was a very dramatic Martin Short in FX`s "Damages." So you have the Laurence Olivier in you also, huh?
SHORT: Well, you know, it`s called range. It`s called stretch.
BEHAR: It`s range, I`ll say.
SHORT: It`s rangy.
BEHAR: Rangy.
SHORT: I sometimes worry about people who are known for comedy now, you know, I`m going to be the assassin.
BEHAR: It`s a little hard to pull off. Woody Allan can never do a serious part.
SHORT: And in reverse, sometimes you don`t necessarily want to see those dramatic guys go wacky.
BEHAR: Do your Jerry Lewis for me.
SHORT: There`s many Jerries. There`s Jerry when he`s young, got to get my old tuxedo pressed, yeah. But then there was Jerry as his got older.
BEHAR: Yes and how did that go?
SHORT: Well, it was always like there was an imaginary lozenge in his mouth.
BEHAR: Yes, yes, yes.
SHORT: Can I tell you what a joy and a thrill and all good stuff it is to be here with you? On a marvelous super duper show? Oh lozenge, I`ll put it here.
BEHAR: How about now that he`s really older, is it more -- is there more stuff in his mouth now or what?
SHORT: Well, now he doesn`t take the wrapper off. It`s -- he forgets.
BEHAR: You know, a lot of times celebrity impersonations can be mean.
SHORT: Yes. Well, I think the secret is, truthfully, they can be mean. I think the secret to do an impersonation of someone iconic is that you have to celebrate their talent. So when I do a piece -- you know I haven`t done Jerry Lewis obviously for a long time, but when I did it on SC TV for example, I would make sure that Jerry as Jerry was hilarious in it. You know I would be running around --
BEHAR: That`s good of you.
SHORT: You know, light up and flame would go up, stuff he`d done, and sometimes if they`re just mean -- they`re not --
BEHAR: Then they`re not funny.
(CROSSTALK)
SHORT: So it`s like an Art Hirschfield (ph) sketch, you`re showing the warts but you are also celebrating the talent.
BEHAR: Well, look at Tina Fey how she did Sarah Palin. A lot of people think she was very much involved in taking down Sarah Palin.
SHORT: She was complimentary to Sarah Palin.
BEHAR: Well, not exactly.
SHORT: Oh, I think if you --
BEHAR: I can see Russia from my house is not complimentary.
SHORT: Sarah, I thunk I saw Russia from her house, that`s what Sarah said.
BEHAR: Oh so she was even nicer to Sarah than Sarah was, is that your point?
SHORT: That`s what I said until I stuttered. But you edit.
BEHAR: No, we don`t edit.
SHORT: You don`t? You know, that`s a big mistake.
BEHAR: We don`t edit. Listen before -
SHORT: If you edited, you wouldn`t be here on cable.
BEHAR: I have to wrap, but I want you to do quickly Katharine Hepburn`s sister -- because I don`t understand how you do that.
SHORT: No, cousin.
BEHAR: Oh her cousin, OK. Oh, her cousin, even more confusion.
SHORT: It was Nelson Hepburn, he was a hotdog vendor. He never met his aunt Kate, but he knew he would phone her and she would hang up. To hell with her.
BEHAR: OK. Thank you, Marty. Good night, everybody. Thanks, Marty.
SHORT: Thanks, Joy.
END
