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Conversation with al Qaeda Insider; Astronomers May Expand Solar System to Include 12 Planets

Aired August 16, 2006 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: He lives with the name and the stigma of his family's tight connection to terrorism. CNN's Zain Verjee met a real life son of al Qaeda with a different outlook and the vision to question it.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ABDURRAHMAN KHADR, SON OF AL QAEDA MEMBER: My father was a great person. He was always my idol and he's always going to be the greatest person in my life.

ZAIN VERJEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Abdurrahman Khadr's path has been shaped by his father's violent philosophy. As a child, conversation at home was war and terror, religion and righteousness. Born in Canada, raised in al Qaeda's training camps in Afghanistan, we met the 23-year-old in Toronto.

(on camera): What would they teach you?

KHADR: Why we're here. Why we're fighting America. Why we're, you know, why we're taking this way, why the suicide bomber is an honor. Why it is right religiously. For a lot of people they took it as it is and never questioned. There were some people that questioned.

VERJEE: Did you question it as a child, when you were there?

KHADR: I mean, I did. I was another child there. I did. I had my questions. I was lucky that I had my father.

VERJEE (voice-over): His father, a personal associate of Osama bin Laden.

KHADR: For me, he was just the father of the kids that I played with. And he was kind of the big person in the compound.

VERJEE: He describes himself as a troublemaker, constantly questioning al Qaeda's philosophy of death and pulling childish pranks, including one that got him in trouble with the man who would become the world's most wanted man.

KHADR: There was one incident with the children. We were playing with a Coke can outside in the compound. And I filled up the can with gun powder and we put it on a rock and laid it up. We thought it would just go away. You know, we would light it up and it would just fly out of the pound. And it flew and started turning and at the same time, Osama bin Laden was coming out of the guest house with all of his bodyguards. So everybody got into the position and everybody was pretty, you know, ready for war. They thought something was happening. All the other kids, because they were Osama's kids and because it wasn't really them that lighted the can, they got away and I got in big trouble. They started running. I had to go behind my dad and stuff.

VERJEE: Abdurrahman said he liked bin Laden.

KHADR: For us he was an OK guy.

VERJEE: But bin Laden's violent ideology was not OK.

KHADR: For me, you know, I don't agree. I don't agree with the suicide bombs, obviously. But I agree with him that the Americans should be out of Saudi and they should be out of Iraq and we should find some kind of peaceful solution in Iraq. There are a lot of things I agree with him. I just don't agree with the violent suicide bombings.

VERJEE: September 11th and then the Americans invade Afghanistan. Soon everyone Abdurrahman knew was dead, on the run or in jail, including his father and brothers. One of them, only 15 at the time, was sent straight to prison at Guantanamo Bay. Abdurrahman was also captured, then approached by the enemy, the CIA, and asked to be an informant.

KHADR: They said, would you like to work for us and you'll get paid and this is a good job opportunity for you. You speak a lot of languages. You're socially capable and I agreed. They put me through a lot of questioning, put me through polygraphs. They try to establish if I'm capable of working for them or not. And when I was, they decided to send me to Pakistan. There was an incident and they changed their mind and sent me to Cuba. From there I went to Bosnia.

VERJEE: The CIA wanted to send him to Iraq, he says. But he resisted. He's convinced that if he had gone, he would be dead by now. Instead, he's disillusioned.

KHADR: I saw a lot of similarities between al Qaeda and the CIA, the way they work.

VERJEE: How?

KHADR: Their blind belief in that just made me think I can't work, I had a lot of discussions with my officers about things like the American soldiers and I always looked for someone to be able to sit down and be like, yes, let's discuss this and tell me what you think and I'll tell you what I think, right? But people were, no, this is how it is and that's it. That's usually what I got from al Qaeda too, you know, that suicide bombing is the way and that's the only way. That's why I decided no.

VERJEE: He quit the CIA just as he quit al Qaeda, abruptly. After fighting a long legal battle, he was eventually allowed to come back home to Toronto. Abdurrahman says he wants to do things his way now. He doesn't keep up with the news because it reminds him of his painful double life. He just wants to move on.

KHADR: I decided that I don't want to be al Qaeda. I'm not al Qaeda. I don't want to be CIA. I'm not CIA. But the point where I found myself in between these two people and not believing either their ways and trying to find my own way, you know, of understanding things, that was very big for me, you know. Because a lot of people are usually followers. I think this whole experience was me following and I need to find a way to lead my own self.

VERJEE: He likes to race cars now and dreams of going pro. More than anything, he says, he wants a normal life. But his complicated, sinister and surreal past always lingers in the shadows.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Zain Verjee joins us live from Washington now. Zain, why should anyone believe his story?

VERJEE: You know Kyra, when we talking in Toronto, I asked him exactly that, why should anyone believe it. He said, look, he said his story has so much detail that he couldn't have just made it up. He also said that he underwent three polygraph tests, including two from the CIA and they checked out, he says. And lastly, he said that he was subject to quite intense photo identification process. So he stands by his story and says that it has checked out.

PHILLIPS: So any other interesting stories that he might have shared with you about his interactions with bin Laden?

VERJEE: You know, he did. He said that he had met bin Laden on numerous occasions. Bin Laden in fact had attended his sister's wedding. One thing that I remember he said was that bin Laden had a love for horses and he wanted to buy a horse, so he said, do you mind coming down and looking at this horse and seeing what you think. Bin Laden said, sure, OK, and went down, looked at the horse and said, you know what, you're not going to get a good price for this horse, forget it. So, you know, he recounted stories and anecdotes like that and said bin Laden was an OK guy but he just didn't believe in his ideology of violence and suicide bombings, so he had to walk away.

PHILLIPS: What does this young man want to do now? What is he doing now? And does he have communication with his family members?

VERJEE: He lives with his extended family and immediate family in Toronto. What he wants to do now, you know, he says he wants to race cars. That's really his passion. He was very, very excited about a movie deal that was in the making. And he wanted to write a book. And he says he just wants to have a normal life. He doesn't even turn on the TV because he says it reminds him of his past. And he just wants to spend time with friends, going to barbecues, he says. But he struck me, Kyra, as fairly intelligent, very affable, articulate and media-savvy guy as well.

PHILLIPS: Zain Verjee, interesting report. Thanks for sharing it with us. You can join us Wednesday night, August 23rd for a special "CNN PRESENTS: In the Footsteps of Bin Laden." It's a CNN special investigation. Our team traveled to four continents, ten countries just to discover who this man is. You can tune in Wednesday night, August 23rd at 9:00 Eastern.

Let's get straight to the news room. Carol Lin working details on a developing story. Carol, what do you have?

CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: Kyra, this is a murder case that goes back 55 years. The bombing of a house that killed two civil rights activists in Mims, Florida. There have been several investigations, but the most recent one appears to bring this to a case closed. We just heard from the attorney general, the state attorney general there, Charlie Krist (ph), who now says that there is enough evidence that he feels to convict four Ku Klux Clan members.

The thing is, Kyra, all four are dead. In fact, three of them died in the following year after this bombing, in 1952. And the last one died in 1978, but before he did, apparently spilled all the beans.

When they reopened this investigation, they actually went to the scene of the bombing. There was a big excavation where they were looking for detonators and other physical evidence. And after interviewing hundreds of people, the attorney general said that he feels confident that if these suspects were alive today, that they would have enough to go to a grand jury.

Kyra, you know, you could ask, well, why did they continue to investigate this and why is this coming out now 55 years later? I can't give you the answer to that except to say that the attorney general said that he wanted to give some conclusion, some resolution to the Moore family descendants, that the state did everything it could to find the perpetrators.

PHILLIPS: And we're actually seeing it every couple of months or so, we're seeing another one of these cases reopen like the Emmitt Till case. We covered that a lot. So it's interesting just to see just that push, and I think it is for a sense of peace for a lot of the family members that remember this and that a lot of these cases were never solved.

LIN: Exactly. Exactly. Resolution for those families who wanted to see justice.

PHILLIPS: Thanks, Carol.

Third grade science turned upside down like the universe. Our planetary roster may be expanding. Find out how.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Let's go back to the newsroom. Carol Lin with details on another developing story. It's turning out to be a busy day, Carol. LIN: Yes, busy day. And this was a moment that residents in Huntsville, Alabama, had been waiting for. All the word on the street was when is the C.C. Clay Bridge going to be blown up? Here they have a new bridge over the Tennessee River, but there was all this suspense and all these people were gathering and people said, you know, the state officials were saying get back, get back, it's going to be too dangerous.

The bridge finally went down. Let's listen in.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two, one, blast off.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: There you go. They were concerned about all the dust, so they had stopped traffic. They stopped boat traffic. But this was the moment people were waiting for. Police had to stop traffic on both sides of the bridge for this to happen -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. So, wait. Do you just let it sink or do you pull it out of there? What's next?

LIN: Details, details. It's a working story, it's a work in progress here but, you know, Kyra, it was so funny, people -- this was really all the buzz, when is this bridge going to come down and we want to see it and where should we stand. And then the police were worried that somebody was going to get hurt or traffic was going to pile up because of the dust.

PHILLIPS: It's like the old hotels in Vegas, right? Everyone just wants to see it come -- they want to see the big explosion, and see it coming down. All right, well, we have to got work part two.

LIN: There you go. Kyra, you know, I've been digging deep. You have to ask the critical question, who is C.C. Clay?

PHILLIPS: Yes, there you go.

LIN: All right, former governor of Alabama, and a U.S. senator before the civil war. That's his legacy, yes.

PHILLIPS: There you go. All right. There's the history on the name. Now we'll find out where the heck that bridge goes next, unless it just becomes a site for divers.

LIN: The recycle bin.

PHILLIPS: Yes, there you go. Thanks, Carol.

All right, well, planets, cheaper by the dozen, what do you think? Astronomers may expand our view of the solar system to encompass not nine plants, but 12. "AMERICAN MORNING's" Miles O'Brien got a little spacey with Neil Degrasse Tyson of New York's American Museum of Natural History.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON, AMERICAN MUSEUM OF NAT. HISTORY: Well, first consider that the word planet has not been defined for 2,500 years, not since ancient Greece, where it was just the wanderers against the background stars.

And so now, after considerable attention and thought given to what would work and what would be cleanly definable, they agreed to define a planet that anything that's round in the solar system, that's not otherwise orbiting something else that's round.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: You like it? Does that work? I mean ..

TYSON: It's clean.

O'BRIEN: Clean is good.

TYSON: Clean is good. And I applaud the fact that a nice, clean decision has come up, and now everybody can stop fighting.

O'BRIEN: All right, we think. We'll see about that.

All right, let's first of all go through how this affects immediately what's going to be on elementary school walls throughout our land.

Number one, three planets immediately added to the system. We're going to tell you about those in a moment. Pluto keeps planet status in this case.

TYSON: Yes, it does.

O'BRIEN: Are you OK with that?

TYSON: I'm OK. That's fine. I don't a problem.

O'BRIEN: All right. Pluto and two others are called, however, like a subcategory; "plutons," they're going to call them. I don't why.

TYSON: Round things that are far away from the sun.

O'BRIEN: Is a pluton?

TYSON: Plutons, yes.

O'BRIEN: All right.

TYSON: That sounds. It's OK.

O'BRIEN: It's OK. So onward, here we go. The interesting thing that there is one pluton right there, Ceres, which kind of caught me by surprise. TYSON: Well, that wouldn't be a pluton -- it's not far enough away from the sun. It's just a planet.

O'BRIEN: Well, are you sure? Because they're saying it's a pluton in this graphic. I don't know about that. I thought this call from the International Astronomical Union.

TYSON: Pluton would be something beyond Neptune, yes.

O'BRIEN: OK. All right. Well, here we've got of course Pluto, and then, Charon, its moon, which actually is its own -- because it kind of has its own orbit, correct?

TYSON: That's correct, because, you know, objects -- normally we think of a moon orbiting a planet, but in Pluto's case, they are orbiting such that the center of mass is between them in space, so they kind of this. So you classify it as a double planet, which is just fine.

O'BRIEN: So here we go. Here are the three that are immediately on there. We're talking about Charon, Ceres, and then this one, 2003 UB313, which definitely needs as P.R. firm to get it a better name.

TYSON: We've got top people working on that.

O'BRIEN: That's what kind of really turned this debate around, when Mike Brown, an astronomer out in California found this one, because it's actually -- is it bigger than Pluto, or is it of the same size?

TYSON: It's certainly bigger than Pluto.

O'BRIEN: All right, bigger than Pluto, and it's the same category of these so-called Kuiper Belt items.

TYSON: Objects. Yes, sure.

O'BRIEN: Sort of leftover items from creation of the solar system.

TYSON: Not swept up by any large object out there.

O'BRIEN: But once you include 2003 UB313.

TYSON: If that's planet, Pluto's a planet. That's how they ...

O'BRIEN: But then also look at these other potential Kuiper Belt objects which could also be included, and I'm told immediately we could get up to 53 objects in our solar system, including these plutons, right?

TYSON: Which alerts the elementary school curriculum that perhaps counting planets is not a useful exercise.

O'BRIEN: There you go, which is your point, always has been your point. Here are some of the big -- let's some you some of the big Kuiper Belt objects, which could immediately get into this pluton category.

And finally, let's go to the next graphic, and we'll give you a sense of what we're doing here. Now, as you know, we have had this mnemonic. You probably remember it. It goes like this, my very -- and this is by first name of the planets -- educated mother ...

TYSON: First letter, yes.

O'BRIEN: ... first letters -- just -- for Jupiter -- served us nine pizzas, right?

TYSON: Yes.

O'BRIEN: So that's the mnemonic. What are we going to do now? We've got a mess, right?

TYSON: I think the mnemonic, while fun, is not scientifically enlightening.

O'BRIEN: Here we go -- here's my idea. Now, see, 2003 UB313 actually has the -- a lot of people call it "Xena"...

(CROSSTALK)

TYSON: Yes, for now, for now.

O'BRIEN: So here's what I suggest. My very educated mother just -- what -- can't just serve us pizzas with chovies excluded.

What do you think?

TYSON: That's fine, until they discover -- until, you know, Mike Brown comes up with another dozen planets.

O'BRIEN: There you go. And that's the point, isn't it? The solar system is an amorphous thing, right?

TYSON: The solar system is a rich, dynamic place of -- look at the moons, with ice volcanoes and oceans. And if all you think of it this enumeration of is planets to be memorized, you are missing out.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Well, you can catch Miles O'Brien, AKA space geek, weekdays on AMERICAN MORNING starting at 6:00 a.m. Eastern.

So where were you on this day in 1977? Well, thousands of adoring Elvis fans know the answer, marking the occasion nearly three decades later.

(MUSIC)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) PHILLIPS: Twenty-nine years later, the faithful still remember their late king on his last day. I speak, of course, about Elvis and his untimely death in 1977. The annual candlelight vigil was held last night at Graceland, where thousands flocked to commemorate and commiserate. Among those sending regards, President and Mrs. Bush, whose letter was read to the fans.

Time now to check in with CNN's Wolf Blitzer. He's standing by in "THE SITUATION ROOM," thinking about Elvis and also about to tell us what's coming up at the top of the hour.

Hey, Wolf.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN REPORTER: Hey, Kyra, thanks very much.

Terror jitters. Jets scramble and passenger luggage spread across the tarmac. We're going to tell you how one passenger touched off a security alert.

Also, a CNN exclusive. My interview with the attorney general, Alberto Gonzales, on the alleged plot to blow up planes headed to the U.S.

And hunkering down. Israel says it will not leave Lebanon until U.N. troops arrive, even if it takes months. We're covering the story from both sides of the border.

And voices of survival and death. 911 calls from 9/11. Hear newly released tapes of how the day unfolded from inside the World Trade Center.

Kyra, all that coming up right at the top of the hour.

PHILLIPS: Thanks, Wolf.

The closing bell and a wrap of the action on Wall Street, straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Well, it's everything you ever wanted to know about one of rock's biggest stars. Jon Bon Jovi talks to Larry King tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Your bandmate, Richie Sambora, made a lot of headlines with his break-up of his marriage to Heather Locklear. How did that affect the band?

JON BON JOVI, MUSICIAN: It's been a hard year with Richie. He celebrated a birthday this week. And we -- you know, as I talked to the guys on the way out to the stage last night, I said, you know, let's just start the year fresh, happy birthday, pal. Last year's behind you. He didn't look for this to happen. He didn't want it to happen. He's a doting dad who adores his daughter. And it's heartbreaking not only for him and his parents and his daughter, but for Heather, too.

That is -- that all said, it didn't do anything else to affect us. You know, he's the pillar of, you know, greatness.

KING: Who left who? She left him?

BON JOVI: You know, the tabloids will say one thing. But honestly, it was a long time coming. They were both -- it was time.

KING: (INAUDIBLE)?

BON JOVI: Yes.

KING: How is it going with him and Denise Richards?

BON JOVI: I think it's actually going rather well.

KING: Have you seen them together?

BON JOVI: Sure. She's on the road with us occasionally. She seems like a very nice girl. And, you know, I hope he finds peace.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Jon Bon Jovi, tonight on "LARRY KING LIVE."

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