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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Private Autopsy; Restoring The Peace In Ferguson, Missouri; Two Shot In Ferguson Chaos Overnight

Aired August 18, 2014 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And it's Monday, August the 18th. Welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

In just the last hour we have learned some brand-new details about a second autopsy that was conducted on the body of 18-year-old Michael Brown. The attorneys for Michael Brown's family spoke alongside dr. Michael Baden, a well-known forensic pathologist, who was hired to do this independent autopsy for the family. He and his assistant, Shawn Parcells, both saying that Michael Brown was shot at least six times. Two shots hit him in the head. Others hit his chest and arm. And the fatal shot went into the top of his head.

Our George Howell is live in Ferguson, Missouri, at the Quik Trip, where so many people have been protesting.

George, I want you to try to break down for me, a, the bulk of what we learned in this family news conference and then key right into these forensics and what they tell us or don't tell us.

GEORGE HOWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well it basically says that the injuries, the gunshot wounds, there are several different scenarios that could have played out to result in what happened here. It really raises a lot of questions and a lot of people will be looking at it. We know that people are certainly outraged by the fact that it's taken so long to get information on the autopsy. People are upset that it's taken so long to get information about what led up to that shooting.

I also want to talk about, Ashleigh, and just changing gears here for just a moment, what's happening here right now. It's a scene that's playing out where police officers are on the spot here and they're telling people that they're not allowed to congregate here at the QT. Keep in mind, this has been a rallying point for many protesters to come together to hold signs, to chant, you know, basically demanding answers, demanding justice in this case.

What we saw of the other night, protesters came together on the streets, they were told to disperse. This is a place that they've always believed that they could come to do so. They're told that they can't do so now. And that is an issue here that is being discussed and seemingly worked out between people.

But going back to the autopsy, it really opens the door to a lot of questions. I want you to hear from the assistance pathologist and what he said just a few minutes ago about it. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHAWN PARCELLS, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST ASSISTANT: This wound to the medial aspect of the right arm, just generally speaking, happened right about here. OK. So what Dr. Baden and I feel that occurred -- and by the way, this red mark is showing that same wound. This is not a separate wound. This is showing the same wound in the same location in that arm, but you're looking at it from the back. And as the attorneys were saying, there was a witness statement that said that he was walking away and the gun goes off and he kind of jerks. So the question asked to us was, could that wound occurred from him walking away and then he turns around? It's consistent with that.

However, understand, too, that while the shot could have come from the back, because if I'm standing here, walking along, and get shot from that direction, you see I pull my arm up, it's in that same general area. The arm is a very mobile part of your body, so it also could have occurred when he was putting his hands up. So I put my hands up and you see where that wound is at. It could have happened if he put his arms across in a defensive manner. We don't know. And we still have to look at other aspects of this investigation before we can really start piece things together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOWELL: And really, this is the first time that we're getting information, some real insight into the autopsy report. There are several other autopsies that will take place in this case, but it is the beginning of getting some answers for people here who are demanding answers. Again, I want to show you, Ashleigh, a live picture here at this QT. The situation has grown a bit. More people surrounding these police officers demanding the right to assemble here. But, again, police are telling them that they can't do that here at this point.

Keep in mind, all of this is under the direction, as we understand it, of Captain Ronald Johnson, who took over by the state patrol. But now we know that the National Guard will step in as well. We believe that they will work in concert with state troopers. So, again, you know, we're just watching all this play out, but it seems like a change of policy, at least here with the QT during the day.

BANFIELD: And we're going to check in on that new change of protocol with the National Guard coming in just a little bit. George, keep an eye on things for us and break in and let us know if anything changes.

HOWELL: Yes.

BANFIELD: But, right now, things look relatively peaceful where George Howell is.

I now want to bring in Dr. Jen Garavaglia from Discovery Health Dr. G Medical Examiner program. She's live in Orlando. And also here with me live in New York, criminal defense attorney Midwin Charles and CNN legal analyst Mark O'Mara.

Dr. G, I'd like to beginning with you, if I can. We've just all been learning at the same time what this independent autopsy from Dr. Michael Baden shows us and perhaps doesn't show us. And from your trained eye, I'd like to get your perspective and your thoughts about what information we now know that we didn't know before from what they've given us.

DR. JAN GARAVAGLIA, MEDICAL EXAMINER IN ORANGE-OSCEOLA, FLORIDA: Ooh, from my trained eye, we don't have very -- still don't have very much information, and neither does Dr. Baden. We don't have the pictures. I can't analyze how he's interpreting this wound. He has not seen the x- rays. He's not seen the clothing. He has not seen - oh, the car. So you really can't even start to try to reconstruct this shooting.

You know, justice takes a long time. The medical examiner's independent and the original one that did the autopsy. And I would much rather wait for that independent autopsy with pictures that we can evaluate than I would go on a second autopsy, which is probably why they're doing a third autopsy.

BANFIELD: And I just want to be very clear on what Dr. Baden said if his live news conference because so much depends on what happened in that initial struggle. Dr. Baden said there's no forensic evidence to suggest a struggle occurred, but does that also mean there's no forensic evidence to suggest a struggle didn't occur?

GARAVAGLIA: Right. Most of the time with a struggle, you will see some evidence of close-range firing. But not all the time. And you certainly would need to look at the clothes. You want to make sure that those wounds didn't go through something first that would stop any evidence of close-range firing. And, keep in mind, the body's already been washed and manipulated by the time Dr. Baden has gotten it.

BANFIELD: Actually that was another question I had for you. We're talking about a second autopsy. And there is still to be a third for the federal authorities. How much does a body - and I hate to speak in these terms, but it is critical -- how much does a body get compromised each time an investigator like yourself finishes his or her work?

GARAVAGLIA: Right. The first autopsy is going to be the most critical one to look at, to look at their pictures and to look at the x-ray, because once that -- organs are taken out during the autopsy, it's very difficult to follow the path. The body is washed and then made ready for the funeral. And then Dr. Baden looks at it. So he's got to relook at what the wounds look like originally before he can really make a determination.

If you notice very closely when they stated that there was a federal autopsy would rely on some of the findings of the first autopsy, that's critical. That's what should be done. These take a long time to sort out.

BANFIELD: Yes. Do they ever. And that is something everyone is being asked to be patient because there are a lot of facts that need to be assessed. And to that end, Mark and Midwin, I want you to weigh in on this. You watched this live news conference along with Dr. G and me and the rest of those who have such a stake in this. Did it tell you anything? And I know specifically, Mark, you have such an integral feel now for police procedure, et cetera, given the work that you had to do on the Zimmerman case.

MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: We dealt with this a lot. And I think what Dr. G said, is that it tells us less than it tells us more. It gives us some indication, for example, those who believe that he was shot in the back a few times, we know that's not true. But what it really doesn't tell us is how far away it happened, what position each body was in, who was reacting to what. That's going to come from the witnesses and, obviously, from the officer's statement when we finally get that.

What I don't like, and I said this before, is that we're now letting out these snippets of information. People want to know, but we're letting out snippets of information that gives a completely incomplete picture and then we throw speculation into the vacuum. It doesn't help.

BANFIELD: So - and that is one of the issues, I think, that even the local authorities have been wrestling with, when to release something, when not -- whether it's been politically released, whether it's not been politically released and we're not here to judge that.

Midwin, from the years that you've spent inside a courtroom, when you see something like that, it looks like evidence. It sounds like evidence. We often see those pictures inside a courtroom. But how incomplete do you think it is or how complete do you think it is?

MIDWIN CHARLES, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it's incomplete. And at this point, it should be. The problem is we're not trying this case. All we - I think all that the people in Ferguson are looking for are the basic facts. And the reason why now -- and I actually agree with Mark when he says that this sort of trickle of information is problematic, and it is because it allows room for conjecture and speculation.

BANFIELD: Can I just add (INAUDIBLE) though?

CHARLES: But had basic information been presented at the outset, there would be no need for Dr. Baden to come in and do his autopsy.

BANFIELD: So what we've seen -- you've seen at least six shots. You've seen the positions of the shots. You've heard some of the witness testimony. Not all of it. But is there enough, and I'll just get a quick answer from either of you, both of you, actually, is there enough for an arrest in this case?

O'MARA: Not yet. Absolutely not.

BANFIELD: Is there enough for an arrest in this case?

CHARLES: Of course there's enough for an arrest. There was enough for an arrest the day he was shot and his body was lying in the street for four hours. Absolutely. BANFIELD: So clearly you say yes and you say no.

O'MARA: Why rush through arrest and put the prosecutor under a speedy trial issue (ph) when you don't have to?

BANFIELD: Because probable cause and indictment they often say it's a ham sandwich. I know it's not true but --

CHARLES: Absolutely.

O'MARA: The grand jury should decide this case.

CHARLES: If anyone shoots and kills someone and we know who did it, they're arrested right away. And then the prosecutors have the time to put on the evidence and either go to a grand jury or start to try the case. We have to follow this as though he were a regular -- this is how it happens in almost every case. There's a double standard here at work.

BANFIELD: Well, when you do the arrests (INAUDIBLE) -- once you start the arrest ball rolling, you better have your ducks in a row because you have a finite amount of time before you have to prosecute.

CHARLES: Yes, because - yes, and you have a dead body.

BANFIELD: Yes.

CHARLES: So someone has to account for that. That's how the justice system works.

BANFIELD: Jan, last statement?

GARAVAGLIA: That is not how it works with police shootings.

BANFIELD: Oh, continue. Continue.

GARAVAGLIA: That is not how it works with -- you don't automatically arrest the police officer. You have to get all the facts and you have to reconstruct the shooting to see if it's justified or not. He has a legal responsibility to carry that gun.

BANFIELD: All right, Dr. Garavaglia, your insight has been so valuable. Thank you for taking the time to talk to us today.

And, Midwin, as always, thank you. Mark, stick around, if you would please.

After a violent night of protests in Ferguson, what will the National Guard strategy be to try to keep the peace in a place that has been less than that? Who is it committing the violence in Ferguson? Some people are saying it ain't the people from Ferguson, that they've come from the outside. We're going to dig for answers to those questions coming up after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BANFIELD: With the National Guard being deployed, we still have no clue what today and tonight are going to be in Ferguson, Missouri. What kind of action those streets might see. Last night, what began as peaceful protests spiraled into chaos after two people were shot and injured. The highway patrol says those civilians were not shot by the police, and they say some protesters were hurling Molotov cocktails at the police as well. All of this despite a curfew that was in place. And Michael Brown's attorney asking for calm. Our Don Lemon is on the ground for us in Ferguson, Missouri.

Don, who is it that it is supposed is causing the trouble at night? Because by day things are calm. By night, does anyone really know who these people are?

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: No, they don't really know, but they have some idea that some of it is caused by outside agitators. Some of it is caused by people who are within the town. They believe that some of it may be caused by gang bangers, but they believe that it's an orchestrated effort.

And the small amount of people, small number of people I should say who are committing the violent protests, the unruly protests, are people who just want a reason to act out anyways. They want a reason to steal. They want a reason to loot.

They want to reason to fire things into the crowd. So it is believed to be obviously younger people as well. But they also think there's some outside agitation coming in from groups, anarchistic-type groups who come in and they like to see chaos and these things occur.

I like to keep reiterating, it's a small number of people doing that. Most of the protesters here are peaceful and they just want their voice heard.

BANFIELD: And, Don, is there any sense -- every day, there's new information and it sometimes raises more questions than answers. We've just had this news conference from Dr. Michael Baden and the family of Michael Brown with regard to the second autopsy. Has that information filtered down to the street yet and is there any sense on how it's being digested?

LEMON: Absolutely. Everything gets here pretty quickly and usually during press conferences, depending on where you are, if you're at one of the protest places, you'll hear the press conferences on loud speaker and people are listening intently.

They believe from the number of shots from the autopsy at least six shots that it was overkill or it was excessive, I should say, it's a better way of putting it. They believe that it was excessive. They believe that obviously his hands were up, as witnesses have been saying.

And they also think that the shot to the head, this is in their opinion, their belief, that that was over the top. That's what killed him and that was unnecessary. So yes, it's trickling down. And so Ashleigh, there are a number of factors here that we have to really look at and we have to take an honest look at and we have to be vigilant about.

That is, number one, the autopsy results that people are not happy with. Number two, the National Guard coming in and concerns about people feeling like they are occupied again. And then of course the possibility of violence here.

Where we are, just moments ago, they said that people couldn't congregate here, that they could protest if they wanted to, but they couldn't stop, they couldn't congregate. It appears, if you look around, that police have backed off of that because it caused some consternation here.

People were saying, you know, it's my right, I want to assemble here. Rather than cause some anger and some resentment, the cops relented a bit and now they're just standing here, having a presence and keeping a close watch.

BANFIELD: OK, Don Lemon, keep an eye on things for us, if you would. Let us know if anything changes over the course of this hour. Our Don Lemon has been doing terrific work in the streets of Ferguson.

Now I want to bring in Retired U.S. Army Lieutenant General Russel Honore in Baton Rouge, Louisiana along with Cedric Alexander who is the president of the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives. He's also the public safety director in DeKalb County outside of Atlanta.

General Honore, if I could begin with you. You heard Don Lemon just reporting on the notion that people feel as though with the onslaught of the National Guard arriving in Ferguson, it's feeling a little like they're occupied.

What would your recommendation be for this community, given what we've seen transpire over the last week, night by night by night? Is the National Guard the right thing to do?

LT. GEN. RUSSEL HONORE, U.S. ARMY (RETIRED): Well, it's a decision about a governor, it's one of the options you've got, to be able to bring more police in, in this case he has two military police battalion and the army national guard in the state under his command.

So whether it's the right thing to do, I think it's a logical progression. When you look at what has happened the last few nights, and the on the ground decision is they need more police, than at the disposal is the National Guard.

They're well trained. They should come in well equipped with modern equipment that's used for crowd control. In terms of shields and the right masks and gloves to protect themselves.

So they can help push a crowd back without using weapons to intimidate them to get them to move in certain directions. So that is an option. And then coming in there, from what I saw, the mission to do law enforcement.

BANFIELD: I think, you know, Mr. Alexander, there have been a lot of critics who have said this police presence, be it the county, be it the state, highway patrol or, now, the National Guard, they're damned if they do, damned if they don't.

When they held back, when the looting happened, they were criticized. When they went in too hard because the protesters wouldn't disperse, they were criticized. Does the National Guard have any kind of blueprint that they can follow so as not to take it from either side of this debate?

CEDRIC ALEXANDER, PUBLIC SAFETY DIRECTOR, DEKALB COUNTY, GEORGIA: Well, I will certainly lean to the general to probably more appropriate person to answer that question, considering his experience. However, I will say this from my own experience, is that the National Guard historically have had a great reputation.

We've seen that over the years and being able to manage crowds under these types of circumstances. So I believe we have to give the Guard an opportunity to go in there tonight, based on how they're trained, with the equipment that they're going to bring with them, that will probably be far more appropriate for what we're seeing out there on the streets in Ferguson.

BANFIELD: Yes, I'd only have to just add that the National Guard didn't have such a good reputation in the '60s, given, you know, peaceful protests and people who were fired upon. But things have certainly been different since.

General Honore, sometimes it seems at least recently that the presence of more law enforcement, especially a militarized appearance of law enforcement, begets more violence. Meaning those who don't like the notion of law enforcement only see more and only get angrier. Do you not see there is this strange cycle playing out?

HONORE: Well, from the last few days, again, as I've come to realize, Ashleigh, I think they're going to have to find a political narrative that they can connect with the people on and move in that direction.

Because I don't think more police is going to solve the issues in this town. They can provide security and hopefully provide safety for the people, but they're not going to solve the problem, more police.

BANFIELD: Mr. Alexander, General Honore just used that term "political narrative." I'm going to you a two-pronged question. That is number one, are you advising any of the law enforcement still in operation in this community?

And if you are still advising them or if you could, what would you recommend the political narrative be for the way they actually effectuate their work in the streets at night?

ALEXANDER: Well, what I will say going forward, I think it's an opportunity for the guard right now to be at the forefront of this so that the police can somewhat fall to the back. I think part of the problem here, much of the problem is here, is that there is a great deal of distrust between police in that community.

The community there just does not trust the police whatsoever. So that's where you get to the point of where being darned if you do, darned if you don't. Those bridges are going to have to be worked on.

But it's very difficult to work on those bridges when each and every night, you have the police saying that is the crowd is making actions towards them that's creating these types of events.

But yet, still, if you listen to the crowd, they would say that it's the police. So I don't know who the observers are in this who can be objective, but I think, in life, we can't determine that, and it is somewhat suspect on both sides, in my opinion.

I think it's important that the Guard come in at this point. We're going to see, going forward, potentially, who's the real initiators in this. One thing I'm very comfortable with, the National Guard, in recent years, have certainly demonstrated they can manage these types of crowds.

If we see that tonight and night2s going forward, that might give us a clearer indication as to what direction we need to be going into.

BANFIELD: I certainly hope we do see exactly what you're suggesting. Yes, go ahead, General Honore.

HONORE: If I might say, Ashleigh, Missouri is one of the few states with two military police battalions. All those troops have deployed at least once. They're well trained. They have the right type of troops, military police, to do law enforcement.

In many cases, some states don't have military police so they'll put infantry troops. This governor has at his disposal two battalions of military police. They're sending about 200.

So these are trained policemen that are coming in to assist in this task, and I assume that's who he selected for this task. We'll see if the coming hours here as they show up.

BANFIELD: OK, General Honore, thank you so much for your time. Cedrick Alexander, thank you as well. Just invaluable input at this time when it is so critical to have your very moderate voices and your very wise voices. Thank you to you both.

Another witness to the final moments of Michael Brown's life coming forward. Ahead, what her cell phone video reveals and what she says she saw that day.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: We've got some brand-new video from a witness to the shooting of Michael Brown exclusively into CNN. I want to warn you before we show it. It is difficult to watch. And for some people, may be too difficult.

The woman who shot the video, her name is Pencha Crenshaw and she was at home getting ready for work when she witnessed shooting. Then grabbed her phone and captured video of the aftermath, including images, of Brown's body lying in middle of the street.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bless his soul, police shot this boy outside of my apartment. They killed him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)