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Making the Case

Pistorius Trial Continues; Mike Tyson on Rape Conviction

Aired March 10, 2014 - 22:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MARK GERAGOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST; Good evening. I'm Mark Geragos.

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: And I'm Sunny Hostin.

On the docket tonight, what made the Blade Runner lose his cool in court and lose his lunch?

GERAGOS: And one of Mike Tyson wants a pardon for his wrongful rape conviction. We'll talk to him in just a bit.

HOSTIN: Than and the cases we'd like to take and more tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Mark Geragos, America's best-known defense attorney, making the case for the defense. Sunny Hostin, former federal prosecutor, fearless child advocate, making the case for the prosecution. Together, they don't just take you into court: they get you inside the arguments.

HOSTIN: First up tonight, the most dramatic day yet in the Oscar Pistorius murder trial. Testimony from a pathologist about what the shots he fired did to his girlfriend, Reeva Steenkamp's body, words that reduced the Olympic Blade Runner to tears and literally made him sick.

Monitoring the trial, our Jean Casarez, who joins us now.

Hi, Jean.

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, Sunny, it was such an emotional day in court. It was the pathologist who took the stand, and he testified as to the gunshot wounds into Reeva Steenkamp.

One went into her skull. And there were multiple skull fractions. Another into her right arm. It broke her arm. One into her right hip. And these were hollow-point bullets, the type that fan out once they get into you and cause immense internal injuries.

Now, Oscar Pistorius, as he is sitting in court, he started to vomit. He got sick. And he stayed in court, but he continued to be sick throughout the duration of this testimony. Now another witness to take the stand was the security guard who got numerous calls from neighbors, saying, "We're hearing shots and screams" at the Pistorius house.

So he testified for the prosecution that he called Oscar Pistorius. And Oscar Pistorius said everything is fine. That, of course, shows Oscar didn't make the call, and Oscar was covering up what was happening.

But then on cross-examination, the defense attorney said, "Wait a minute. You know, according to the call logs, Oscar Pistorius called you, and what he said was vastly different."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PIETER, BABA, SECURITY GUARD: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE):

I found the house holder, Mr. Pistorius, on the cellular phone to inquire as to whether everything was in order.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: He said he's OK. But he was crying. He came down the steps, carrying someone in his arms. He placed the person down on the floor.

The important part is when you're asking, he said, he is OK. Do you see that?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: So he is OK. Not everything is fine.

Another important witness, Samantha Taylor, the former girlfriend of Oscar Pistorius, who really set the stage for many things with the prosecution about Oscar Pistorius and guns. He not only faces the murder charge but three gun charges that could land him in prison for the rest of his life -- Mark and Sunny.

GERAGOS: Jean, thanks.

Now we want to look at two key things in this case: the evidence and the unknowns. And let's start with the evidence.

Frankly, I think, it's inextricably linked with the unknowns.

HOSTIN: OK.

GERAGOS: The unknown here is there's no jury. So you've got a judge trial. South Africa abolished the jury back in, I think, 1969. So you've got a judge trial. And what's always the case when people talk about these kinds of sensational cases, is how did the defendant act? How did she react to thing? Well, you're one of the most visceral reactions you can have. You have someone vomiting in the courtroom when he is hearing this kind of gruesome pathologist testimony. And I think that's significant even to a judge. Hearing it without a jury.

HOSTIN: See, I don't think it's going to be significant to this judge, because people are dramatic in court. He's been very dramatic throughout. And we're talking about a judge who was a journalist and also a social worker. And so I suspect that that is not necessarily going to help Oscar Pistorius.

But Mark, I think when you talk about the evidence in this case, this judge would have to disbelieve everything that all of these witnesses have said, which is there was an argument. There were blood-curdling screams from a woman before the shots were fired, and then they heard four shots. What do you do with that?

GERAGOS: I'm not so sure -- I'm not so sure that this idea of the timing of the screams and the shots is as significant as everybody is saying. Because everybody knows that the mind plays games when you're listening to stuff like that.

HOSTIN: But there are several different...

GERAGOS: Yes, there's several different people, but it's -- they've done all kinds of studies about this. And people's memories of what came first, the shots or the screams, are -- is notoriously unreliable. I think it's -- I think it's -- the most significant thing about this case is what is the motivation? Why does this guy just wake up in the middle of the night, if that's what happened, and decide he's just going to shoot her through the door? And why...

HOSTIN: Oh, I can give that to you. I can give you the motivation.

GERAGOS: And why the door? What's the motivation for that?

HOSTIN: It's clear from his ex-girlfriend's testimony and from the testimony of others that this is an angry guy. This is -- he's an angry guy. He's a gun-toting guy; he's a jealous guy. And I think when you put that all together, he finds this gorgeous, gorgeous woman, and love makes you crazy. And I think we do a terrible job here in the United States and abroad of glorifying these -- you know, these athletes. Is it that an athlete can't do something like that?

GERAGOS: You base all of that...

HOSTIN: He's more likely to do something like that.

GERAGOS: I know you can take this idea of it's an athlete, he's gun-toting and everything else.

HOSTIN: And angry.

GERAGOS: But first of all, you're getting that through the prism of an ex-girlfriend. And she is -- understand something, she is the one who was dumped for this female.

HOSTIN: So she would lie just... GERAGOS: Well, I don't know she lies, but I don't know that the -- the kind of prism she's looking through is accurate and she's a great historian on this. And I'm not so sure that this kind of angry, you know, South African O.J. theory plays.

HOSTIN: Let's talk about the unknowns. Because I think that you brought up a good point: The unknown about the judge. You've always said, Mark, that...

GERAGOS: The trial is over when you -- after jury selection.

HOSTIN: What about this judge? Do you really think that this helps Oscar Pistorius, that he has won a black female judge who was a journalist. But also...

GERAGOS: But social worker is not a bad thing.

HOSTIN: Domestic violence.

GERAGOS: Most prosecutors I known, a social worker sits down in that jury, and they're bouncing you out of the journey. I mean, he prosecutors do not want social workers in a jury. Generally, that's a defense-oriented juror.

HOSTIN: I don't know. In a domestic violence type case I want someone like that on the jury.

GERAGOS: There is -- at least so far, there hasn't been any hint of a history of domestic violence. So you're not getting into this battered woman.

HOSTIN: That's not true. He's an angry guy.

GERAGOS: Angry guy because he shoots his gun at a -- at a signal does not rise to the level -- I mean, there are guys out there who like guns.

HOSTIN: His ex-girlfriend testified that she -- he's an angry guy who yelled at her and her family members.

GERAGOS: Never hit her.

HOSTIN: I mean, everyone has talked about this guy having that type of temper. What makes you think that this beautiful girl didn't make him crazy?

GERAGOS: I just don't -- just because -- well, made him crazy on Valentine's Day so that he's just going to get up and all of a sudden decide, "I'm going to murder this beautiful girl through the closed door in the bathroom"? Why that? I mean, if he's going to -- you'd think -- I mean, you would have to believe that he decided "I'm going to have this intruder defense. And because of this intruder defense, I'll wait until she goes into the bathroom, and then I'll say, 'Hey, I'm going to kill you right now. Start screaming," and then he shoots? That makes absolutely no sense. HOSTIN: But what does make sense is that all the witnesses, Mark, talk about -- these are the neighbors -- talk about this argument that they heard. A loud, loud argument. And then it also makes sense, and I think it's going to be very important, whether or not he put his prosthetic limbs on. Because if he did and he followed her into the bathroom and they're in an argument...

GERAGOS: I'll give you this much. I'll give you this much: if the prosthetic limbs are on, that makes it is a much tougher case for the defense.

HOSTIN: We've got to save the tape, so.

GERAGOS: So I'll save the tape on this.

HOSTIN: So I'm right on this one, right?

Next he went from rags to riches to rape conviction.

GERAGOS: Heavyweight boxing champion Mike Tyson making his case and making some noise.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE TYSON, FORMER HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION: No, but you're the prosecutor, Sunny. No, Sunny, Sunny -- no.

HOSTIN: This is what's the point, Mike Tyson.

TYSON: Sunny, no. You told us just now -- no, you told us just now that they like being -- and they...

HOSTIN: You see...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOSTIN: Each week we want to talk to someone directly involved in a case and let them make it for themselves.

GERAGOS: This week we're talking to boxer Mike Tyson, who went from Brooklyn street kid to the youngest heavyweight champion in history to tabloid husband and finally wrongfully convicted rapist.

HOSTIN: Well, he wasn't wrongfully convicted. He was convicted by a jury of his peers in 1992 of raping an 18-year-old Miss Black America contestant named Desiree Washington. And he served three years in prison for that crime.

GERAGOS: Just because he served three years in prison doesn't make it a rightful conviction. And to this day, he maintains his innocence.

Full disclosure, by the way, Sunny: he's not only a client of mine, but I consider him a friend, as well. He sat down with us recently, and wait until you see this interview.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GERAGOS: You know what I wanted to ask you about. And you and I have talked about this. And I want to talk about the rape conviction.

MIKE TYSON, FORMER HEAVYWEIGHT BOXING CHAMPION: OK.

GERAGOS: I want to talk about the idea of getting a pardon, and I want to talk about the fact that you believe you were wrongfully convicted.

TYSON: Wow. Which one first?

GERAGOS: You tell me. Wrongfully convicted.

TYSON: Yes, I do believe I was wrongfully convicted, because I didn't commit the crime.

HOSTIN: Let's talk about that night.

TYSON: Please.

HOSTIN: Because you know, I've got to ask you the question I think that every woman watching this, every woman in the world is going to ask. They're going to ask, "A pardon for rape?" Really? I've never heard, Mike, of anything like that.

You're saying that you didn't rape her. So the judge got it wrong; the jury got it wrong. Convince me. Pretend I'm the parole board, the pardon board. What happened that night?

TYSON: Well, all the evidence wasn't brought to the case. They wouldn't -- they excluded all the evidence that was in my behalf. The evidence that the witness saw her kissing on me and fondling me in the car.

HOSTIN: Did she fondle you and kiss you in the car?

TYSON: A hundred percent yes.

GERAGOS: And there were -- and there were three witnesses who came forward during the trial who were excluded. The judge excluded those witnesses...

TYSON: And then they came.

GERAGOS: ... because he said they came forward too late.

HOSTIN: But what happened after that?

TYSON: After that, of course, we went upstairs. I explained to her this is what we're going to do. She was...

HOSTIN: What did you say to her? TYSON: I spoke to her earlier that day. We were talking earlier that day when they were going through the Black Miss America, when they were going through their -- they were over going some of their rehearsals they were going to do earlier. And I wanted her and her friend to also come with me, but she came by herself. And she knew what we were -- we anticipated doing.

HOSTIN: How do you know she knew that?

TYSON: Because I asked her, and I said this is what we're going to do. She came to my -- what time did she come to my bedroom?

HOSTIN: What were the words you used?

TYSON: Huh?

HOSTIN: What were the words you used?

TYSON: We're going to (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

GERAGOS: She -- you ask that question.

HOSTIN: What was her response to that?

TYSON: "I'll see you after this concert." Because at first she was going to come to the concert, but she didn't come. But I called her. I called her, and she came to my car. And I believe this is early in the middle of the night, 2 a.m., 3 a.m. in the morning, something to that respect. So we're going -- what are we going to my room, to play checkers?

GERAGOS: Right. At 2 or 3 in the morning at the hotel room.

TYSON: Would you come to my hotel room at 2 or 3 in the morning after I explained to you what we were going to do? No, really, you come and put yourself in the situation. You're from the South Bronx.

HOSTIN: I'm from the South Bronx.

TYSON: Yes, that's right.

HOSTIN: So no.

TYSON: That's why you know. That's why you know.

HOSTIN: So no. But we're talking about someone else, someone that's sheltered, a young girl, 18 years old.

TYSON: She's not sheltered. She's not sheltered. No, you're wrong. She's already had a rape case already. She already accused somebody for raping her. She's not sheltered.

HOSTIN: Well, let's go -- let's go back.

TYSON: Hold on, but she's not sheltered. Take back that she's sheltered. HOSTIN: OK. OK. OK.

TYSON: Say she's not sheltered, Sunny. Please.

HOSTIN: I think she was sheltered.

(CROSSTALK)

GERAGOS: ... Someone who is sheltered if they've already made the accusation.

HOSTIN: Who's to say that she was not telling the truth then?

TYSON: Well, they threw it out. But now she's -- now it happened to her again?

HOSTIN: That doesn't mean it didn't happen.

TYSON: Does that mean that you would put yourself in another situation to be that way?

HOSTIN: There are several women, Mike -- I used to prosecute sex crimes. Yes, there are several women that are re-victimized over and over again. That's not unusual.

TYSON: Do they like being victims? Do they like thinking -- putting themselves in a position of being...?

HOSTIN: No. Of course not.

TYSON: How do you know?

HOSTIN: But I want to get back to that night.

TYSON: Because they keep putting themselves in the situation of being a victim. So you said no.

HOSTIN: I want to get to that night.

TYSON: No. You said no just now. Let's talk about what you said. They keep putting themselves in the position of being in the victim. So do they like that position of being the victim or saying, "This guy hurt me"? And they like people feeling sympathy for them?

HOSTIN: Was she a victim? Was she a victim?

TYSON: No. This is what you say. They like putting themselves in the situation of victim.

HOSTIN: Was she a victim?

TYSON: No, she wasn't, but she likes that situation of being a victim. That's what you said. You know people that keep putting themselves -- you're a prosecutor, Sunny...

HOSTIN: Doesn't mean she liked it. TYSON: No, no. You're the prosecutor, but she liked being in that position.

HOSTIN: But this is...

(CROSSTALK)

TYSON: No, but you're the prosecutor, Sunny. Sunny, Sunny, Sunny, no...

HOSTIN: This is what's important. Mike Tyson, this is what is important...

TYSON: You told us just now -- you just told us now that they like being...

HOSTIN: Do you think...

TYSON: Yes.

HOSTIN: Do you think, in retrospect -- you're a father now; you're a husband. Could you have misread the situation?

TYSON: Listen, I read it to the best of my ability. I've been through situations like that before, and this never was the outcome.

GERAGOS: You think part of it was that you didn't walk her downstairs or that you didn't...

TYSON: That's what they said.

GERAGOS: That's what everybody says. The urban legend.

TYSON: I'm not going to go with that. I'm not going to go with that. I think this is premeditated. This is what they wanted to do. Because the courts, in one other case, she said, you know how stupid he is and how much money Robin Givens got from him? Did you know that, Sunny?

HOSTIN: Yes. Yes.

TYSON: All right.

HOSTIN: You think she set you up?

TYSON: I think I was set up, and the system helped her.

HOSTIN: You think she lied?

TYSON: Yes. Implicitly.

HOSTIN: Well, then let me ask you this. I mean...

TYSON: Ask me anything. I always want to hear what you have to say. HOSTIN: Thank you. We now know that she -- well it's been reported she's changed the way she looks. She's had cosmetic surgery. She's changed her identity. She says that that night ruined her life. If she's watching this right now, what would you say?

TYSON: You did the wrong thing by changing your identity, changing your look. You should be proud when you feel that you've been victimized by me. You should -- I am the person. I am Desiree Washington, and this man abused me and I'm not changing my story for nobody.

HOSTIN: You think you owe her an apology?

TYSON: I don't think I owe her anything. No.

GERAGOS: No.

TYSON: I think she owes me an apology, because my life has been ruined more so than her.

GERAGOS: And that's why you want the pardon.

TYSON: A hundred percent. But do you think I get a pardon? No. Because I'm Mike Tyson, and I have my stereotype. You know what I mean? Anyway, anyway...

GERAGOS: Am I going to thank you for coming on?

TYSON: I don't know.

GERAGOS: Yes, I am.

HOSTIN: I hope you'll come back, because I have so many other questions.

GERAGOS: I think he will.

HOSTIN: So many other questions.

TYSON: No, no, you should ask them now. You should ask them now. I love talking with you. I'd love you to meet my wife. I think you're some strong woman. I think you're very -- I think you're an irritant and you're confrontational, but my wife thinks a lot of you.

HOSTIN: You don't like me then? You don't like me, Mike?

TYSON: No, I have nothing against you. I think you're adorable but you are just who you are. You are just who you are.

GERAGOS: Thank you, Mike. I appreciate you coming on here.

TYSON: Thank you.

GERAGOS: Thanks, Mike.

(END VIDEOTAPE) HOSTIN: Wow. What an interview. I will say this, though. I've had an opportunity to sort of think about it after speaking with him. I found him charming. I found him to be...

GERAGOS: He's very charming.

HOSTIN: He was very charming. I found him to be complex. And I think, most importantly, I believe that he does not believe he raped her. And I did not think that going into the interview.

GERAGOS: And the best part of this interview is how savvy he is, because he was able to figure out that you're irritating.

HOSTIN: I do seem to have that effect on people.

GERAGOS: Yes, you do. Yes, you do.

HOSTIN: Including you, Mark Geragos.

GERAGOS: Including me. And we'll be right back with the cases we'd take if we had our druthers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GERAGOS: Law students have moot court. Baseball fans have fantasy leagues. Sunny and I have a league of our own.

HOSTIN: That's right. Our own personal dream docket called "The Case I'd Take."

GERAGOS: I know, and I can only imagine what case you would take.

HOSTIN: Well, the case I'd take involves a verb I was unfamiliar with until a court in Massachusetts ruled on it and state lawmakers even weighed in on it.

GERAGOS: Well, the -- if you're talking about the upskirting case.

HOSTIN: I am. I'm talking about upskirting.

GERAGOS: A unanimous -- unanimous -- supreme court ruling by the Massachusetts Supreme Court, and the opinion, if I'm not mistaken, was written by a woman.

HOSTIN: And they're all wrong.

GERAGOS: They're wrong, you're right.

HOSTIN: And they're wrong because the supreme court of Massachusetts says it's completely legal under their peeping tom law to take a photograph of a woman under her skirt if she's in public.

And the problem that I have with it is that all of the undies...

GERAGOS: Oh, my goodness.

HOSTIN: ... women wear now are thongs.

GERAGOS: Don't tell me. There is no floor to this show.

HOSTIN: And do not tell me that you are partially nude when you are wearing something like this. If I have this on -- no, Mark. If I have this on underneath my skirt, I clearly have an expectation of privacy, because I'm trying to privatize my privates. And that's -- the only reason he's taking pictures -- that loser is taking pictures of women under their skirts is because they know -- he knows that they have thongs on.

GERAGOS: Look, in the defense of perverts and this guy, it wasn't like he was reaching up under her skirt. She was there. She was exposed. He took the picture.

HOSTIN: Exposed.

GERAGOS: And under the reading of the law, the statute, there was no crime. That's why the legislature ran away and...

HOSTIN: You can't...

GERAGOS: And 48 hours later changed the law.

HOSTIN: You can't possibly believe that. If your lovely daughter...

GERAGOS: It's what happened.

HOSTIN: He is a lovely father. I don't know if many people know that. He's got a lovely daughter. If a loser took a picture of your daughter's undies like that, you would be furious.

GERAGOS: I wouldn't worry about the -- I wouldn't worry about the state prosecutor at that point.

HOSTIN: Anyway, Mark, which case would you like to take?

GERAGOS: Look, this is one -- I can think of a lot of them. I mean, you can think -- I'd want to take Mike Tyson's rape case if I can defend that case.

But the case that got me to decide to become a criminal defense lawyer was when I was 12, my father was a prosecutor at that point.

HOSTIN: I like that.

GERAGOS: He got the -- he got the -- saw the light and became a defense lawyer the following year. But I went to court with him when I was 12. And I actually watched him prosecute an 18-year-old kid who was only six years older than I was and send him to state prison for being in a room where marijuana was smoked. That had the most unbelievable effect on me.

HOSTIN: Why?

GERAGOS: I mean, I said to my father, how in the world can you put an 18-year-old kid right out of the box into state prison for being in a room where marijuana was smoked? I just could not...

HOSTIN: I completely understand that.

GERAGOS: That has completely changed the career trajectory of me.

HOSTIN: Well, I completely understand that. If someone is in a room where they're packaging cocaine, or someone's in a room when -- where they are trading guns and illegally trading guns and do nothing about it and are, in fact, really participating in it, I don't see a problem with that.

GERAGOS: This is exactly why prosecutors need, like Prosecutors Anonymous or something. Because the idea that somehow you're going to go from being in a room where marijuana is smoked to international drug trafficking or...

HOSTIN: It's the same thing.

GERAGOS: ... gun trafficking, I mean, it's not the same thing.

HOSTIN: It's the same thing. It's a crime.

GERAGOS: Ridiculous.

HOSTIN: I think your father was right. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOSTIN: Unlike closing arguments in court, we're up against a time limit here.

GERAGOS: Thanks for watching "Making the Case."