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Dozens Arrested in Ferguson Clashes; Violence Continues Days after Death of Michael Brown

Aired August 19, 2014 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Last night was a little bit of a different situation but, the result, the same. People disbursed. Tear gas came out. Stun grenades.

Last night, gunfire. This of course is going to prompt another cycle of talk about how to make it get better here, Kate. We were in the middle of the reporting last night. We'll take you through this morning.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Absolutely. This all comes as more details start to emerge about the investigation including Officer Darren Wilson's side of the story. We're going to break down what we know now. The very different perspective that he has offered investigators.

But for now let's get back to Missouri and Chris -- Chris.

CUOMO: Now literally, Kate, you have the world watching basically a half mile stretch of road here in this suburb of St. Louis, Missouri. Last night it was another ugly scene.

It started off the right away. You had community leaders, you had protests, you had a message coming, but then again, it overheated. Over the course of a few hours despite the best efforts of the community and of state police, and help from the National Guard, 31 arrested and two were shot.

That did not involve police by every report we had. Now police did have to fire tear gas and stun grenades once again to disperse the crowd after they say they were being targeted with rocks, bottles, and even Molotov cocktails.

George Howell has been reporting it from the beginning. He was there last night. George, what do we know?

GEORGE HOWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So, Chris, look, the other night they tried something different. They lifted that curfew to allow for peaceful protest. What is a peaceful protest? It means some people go and yell in police. It means some people get in the face of police but nothing violent.

Protests are fine as long as they're peaceful. Look, police are trying different tactics. They tried a different tactic last night, but got the same results. Again, peaceful protests that were undermined by a few people who wanted to cause problems. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HOWELL (voice-over): Chaos on the streets of Ferguson yet again. In what was one of the most tense nights yet, police say some protesters provoked violence throwing Molotov cocktails, starting at least two fires, even firing upon police.

CAPTAIN RON JOHNSON, MISSOURI HIGHWAY PATROL: I listened on the radio and heard the screams of those officers who were under gunfire. I went back to our squad vehicle and saw the gentleman laying in the back who had been shot.

HOWELL: Officers responding with stun grenades and tear gas. Two people shot, civilians shot by civilians, police say. Both expected to survive. CNN cameras caught one protester appearing to ignite a building. Flames filling up inside. Police say it was a small number of agitators who incited the violence and their response.

JOHNSON: Bottles were thrown from the middle and the back of a large crowd. These criminal acts came from a tiny minority of lawbreakers.

HOWELL: Our own crews forced to take precautions.

(on camera): Listen, there's tear gas in the air here, and our crew is being overcome.

(voice-over): Ferguson residents coming to the aid of this freelance photographer overcome by the smoke. The night had started peacefully and remained that way until around 11:00 p.m. local. Even in the face of heavy police presence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now why they're doing this I don't know because there is no threat going on here. None.

HOWELL: But the peaceful protesters unable to stop a small number of troublemakers. Community leaders even forming a human chain walking hand and hand to block out the agitators.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's to my understanding that someone threw a water bottle and it ignited the police. They started acting like we were regular -- at the end of this we're going to be classed as insurgents. Nobody is out here for war.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOWELL: That's the frustrating part. Quite honestly. You have people who really want to come out and voice their anger and their concerns. They want answers in the case, and again, you know we're also waiting to hear more from police.

There are always two, three sides to a story. We want to bring all of those together. The problem is there are certain people who will come into these crowds and will come out to provoke the police, Chris.

And again, we see night after night these cases of violence just continue to play out. It's almost like you rewrap what we talked about the other night. It seems to happen over and over again.

CUOMO: George, and the question will be what stops the cycle of behavior. I think we are going to have to look to leadership. I think you put your finger right on it. It's the third side of the story.

You have what the police are saying. You have the protesters, and then you have this other small group that seems to be making everything get much, much worse. Reporters are in the middle of all this.

You know, George has been there. You've seen the CNN folks here from the beginning. Ed Lavandera is one of them. You're hearing what George is saying.

Now first, this idea of three sides. OK, you see it play out every night. Truth that you see people that becoming familiar. They don't seem to fit in with the rest of the protesters and they do seem to be agitators.

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Everything goes very smoothly. In fact, someone asked me last night do you think it's going to be calm? I said, you know, it's going to be calm until 5 minutes before things go bad. That's how quickly things have unravelled. You can sense it coming, but you don't really sense it until it's right on us.

CUOMO: Now a lot of heat given to the police last night. Why are they wearing all these? Why are they so militarized? You know, everything is fine. It wound up not being fine. They did have to take action. It got hot very quickly.

Now when you see Captain Johnson and seeming to me, at least, very emotional about what he was doing. What is your take on how the police are handling the situation?

LAVANDERA: I want to talk about what I saw last night. I thought it was very targeted. I thought it was a little bit different from what we've seen in other nights. A couple of clips of video that we have.

We were doing an interview. First of all, they let various community leaders to try to calm tensions down. So before that line of police moved in, there were various community leaders with bull horns talking to people.

CUOMO: Had been missing, right?

LAVANDERA: It had been out there. It was about 30 to 45 minutes. Might even gotten to an hour of them kind of holding things down and then it just kind of fluidly happened when we're talking.

And all the sudden this armored tank moved up right next to us. And you see the guy, they jumped out. They ended up not arresting this guy, but they came in to search him. Very targeted.

And then just seconds later another armored vehicle came rushing past us and immediately blocked in the black sedan trying to get out. They pulled out two men. Turns out later Captain Johnson pulled out two handguns. They were found in that car.

Those people had been pulled out not 15 feet from us. It was very targeted. You saw they move in, get the people they wanted to get out, and then they would retreat back. That's what I saw repeatedly last night.

CUOMO: What do you think the cause of inciting the problem each night is? Is it the police presence, the people feel they're being oppressed by the police, or do you think there's a push of agitation on the side of non-protesters but people who are present?

LAVANDERA: That's what I saw last night. For several hours, you had hundreds of people out here. There were a group of kids who had come out with, like, five dozen red roses and handing them out to people. The rule was keep walking.

As long as you're walking around, things are fine. They didn't want people standing around loitering. At some point, those agitators tried to get people to get into the middle of the road and start pushing up the road toward this location.

They got very close last night. It was clear that police were not going to let it happen again. They made that line in the sand in the middle of the road. But there are people in there. We had video of one man who was arrested.

He had a milk jug with some pink fluid in it. I noticed he had a glove in his hand. I don't know if it was a Molotov cocktail. This man was 5 feet away from me --

CUOMO: But he's asking for trouble and he is doing it in an obvious way.

LAVANDERA: They moved in quickly grabbed the two guys. There was a crowd of people around him. The authorities you can tell that they have seen those guys. They were coming in, grabbing them out and coming out. But in the moment of that arrest, it's very chaotic and people get caught --

CUOMO: They don't know who is being grabbed and why.

LAVANDERA: To be clear, I think this is important, this confrontation here that we're seeing. It's on the southern end of the road. This was not where the tear gas was deployed.

At some point, the group of protesters moved further up the road closer to the gas station that was burned down. Two armored vehicles moved that way. Those officers were more isolated. That's when shots were fired. The buildings were set on fire. That's when we saw the tear gas explode.

CUOMO: All right, Ed, thanks for keeping yourself safe, doing the reporting. I'll be out there with you tonight.

You know, as Ed was laying this out for me, all of this that the world is watching is happening in the half mile stretch of this suburb of St. Louis called Ferguson.

A freelance photographer from New Mexico, Albuquerque, he was tear gassed last night. A canister was thrown. Many were thrown. He had to drop to a ground. It was a tough night. There was a CNN crew there.

They put milk in the eyes to deal with the gas. His name is Leo York. He's the photographer you're looking there right now. He's made a splendid recovery. He joins us right now. Leo, you're looking good. How you feeling?

LEO YORK, PHOTOGRAPHER: Pretty good. It was bad for a little while, but I made it.

CUOMO: Now you had been in the military, you know what it's like to go through the chamber when they expose you tear gas to get you ready. Nothing like last night though.

YORK: It seemed a little worse. I think it's because you weren't expecting it and all the sudden you're in pain and you can't breathe and not and tears coming down your face. It's part of the job, but you don't expect it to happen.

Especially when you're media. I saw, you know, before I got hit with it, I saw them purposely shoot a tear gas canister to the media section. Maybe not on purpose, but I was shocked and it hit me.

CUOMO: What do you think was going on that set all this off?

YORK: It was just people put cones in the road. You know, maybe these people are instigators or tired of being treated this way. I don't know why. The police made it clear for about 30 minutes to get out the road then they put cones in the road and it's like all hell broke loose.

CUOMO: The flash point was maybe Molotov cocktail maybe it was water bottle. Did you see anything at all?

YORK: I saw a water bottle. I want to clear up the Molotov cocktail because I've been out here for five nights now. I have yet to see one. That word is thrown around a lot. I know, for sure I saw water bottles.

CUOMO: Now this idea of agitators in the crowd. It's a growing theme about why they're unable to get the community under control. When I say they I mean the community. The leaders came out and they were saying we can control this. What are you seeing? Do you see an insurgent group there?

YORK: Yes. I was hiding with a few people last night and they were telling me that people were coming from Chicago, California, West Virginia. It's not us doing it. Those are probably a few, but they are saying mostly the people are coming here to steal from the stores just to take advantage of the situation.

Because the police presence can't be focussed everywhere. So, you know, people of Ferguson have been really awesome to me, and they've opened doors for me. Give me food, given me water on the big standoffs. So they're just trying to send peace.

CUOMO: What do they say they want? When you're with the people from Ferguson. We're dealing with a very small community here. What do they want right now and what is their reaction to the police insecurity?

YORK: They definitely want justice for what happened. You know, they're getting this treatment for holding signs and protesting, but the guy that shot and murdered somebody at point-blank range or in the back, however it will come out. He's, you know, in a house somewhere, you know, on paid leave.

CUOMO: The officer you're talking about shot versus murdered is a very big distinction. That's what the investigation is all about. You get the sense that people are following the investigation. Do you think it's simple frustration right now? Not so much information driven but emotional.

YORK: I think it's a mix of both. I think they're holding on to every word that leads closer to the decision of what he did. So it's tough to say are you seeing emotion, are you seeing frustration. At the end of the day, they just want justice.

I think that's the leading feeling, because they've been going through this for years and, you know, racism is terrible. It's sad to say in 2014, it's still here in Ferguson.

CUOMO: And yet for all and we also keep hearing that for all the media and people like you, all the messaging going on. There's a call for leadership here and the community leaders are coming out and starting to develop their own. There's a little bit of a leadership vacuum. Will you be out there tonight?

YORK: I believe so. It depends on funding for the project. We'll see what happens. I would love to.

CUOMO: All right, be safe if you're out there tonight.

YORK: Thank you.

CUOMO: All right, Kate, back to you in New York.

BOLDUAN: Thanks so much, Chris. Let's talk about what Chris is really hitting on, on the ground. The police response last night in Ferguson.

Let's bring in Lieutenant General Russell Honore, who was involved in the response after Hurricane Katrina, of course, and also Eugene O'Donnell from the John Jay College of Criminal Justice and a former New York City police officer. Good morning to both of you.

General, I want to get your take. When you see the video and hear the accounts from our reporters, from some of the peaceful protesters on the ground, it was peaceful for a large part of the night then something ignited another round of chaos. What do you make of the police response and how it unfolded?

LT. GEN. RUSSEL L. HONORE, U.S. ARMY (RETIRED): I think you have to look a little bit what is causing this and the approach of civil disobedience. In the process of civil disobedience, the intent of the crowd or the people is to try to get the political attention that things are not going right.

So the very thing that got us here. Police allegations and some documentation of not just the Michael Brown incident, but a continuous process of what people say heavy-handed police work against a group of people.

So civil disobedience is to get your attention, to cause a political change. In this particular case, I think the very thing that got us here is the same thing they're trying to use as a solution, Kate, to get us out of here, which is overwhelming police use of firepower.

BOLDUAN: Is that the right answer?

(CROSSTALK)

HONORE: Communicate with the people and to allow them to demonstrate without putting tear gas on them, at the same time as a criminal element that has to be deal with in burning buildings.

BOLDUAN: General, what is your prescription, if you will? What is the better alternative at this moment? The National Guard has been brought in, though, when you look at the video from last night. You don't see a big presence of National Guard. Their job was described very narrowly as protecting the command center. The police command center.

They were brought in -- that was thought to have been by some going to be the escalation. But it really seemed to be another night of chaos. What is your prescription how to calm things down to get the focus back on the investigation?

HONORE: I think they have to continue to walk with the people as opposed to walk against them. To allow them to demonstrate until there's a political or justice that is going deal with the particular case. Understand this is the case that people are protesting about. But it's a broader narrative.

I think, you know, with the attorney general coming to town, they might have to figure out a way out of this. This is bigger now than Ferguson. It's happening in Ferguson.

That's my assessment of it, that they're going to have to find a political way out and the judicial way out because people are going to continue to protest. Unfortunately, when people protest, it's a sign of civil disobedience that they're not buying what the politicians are saying. And the political and justice in this country need to find a way out of this that convince people the right things will be done and there will be changes made on how they deal with people that have been arrested and once they're arrested, how they're treated. BOLDUAN: And, Eugene, I want to bring you in on this, because I mean,

it seems pretty clear, bringing order and peace are not the same thing, especially what we're seeing on the ground in Ferguson. I saw you describe bringing in the National Guard is a worse case scenario.

Is that what we're seeing play out or is it something else?

EUGENE O'DONNELL, JOHN JAY COLLEGE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE: Well, as the general indicated it's a political issue. There's been a collapse of engagement, civil engagement. It's about as bad a situation as you can get.

BOLDUAN: And what do you do? Do you agree with the general that the answer is a political solution though? Because tonight it seems that political solution might be the right prescription in the long-term, but in 24 -- 20 hours, they're going to be on the streets, potentially.

O'DONNELL: I mean, this is hard for the police. Don't forget -- they do events like trained conferences where they do a year to planning, contingency planning and they still don't do a perfect job of it. And this is something they're basically doing in real time trying to stand this up.

But, obviously, community engagement and there's very positive signs that leadership has stepped up in the community. Clergy stepped up, and the general is right. There needs to be space for people to protest if people want to do civil disobedience.

But the isolation of troublemakers can come from the community. We saw it in New York on Occupy Wall Street, where to the credit of most of the people organizing there, they did not tolerate people in the midst even though they had dramatic of, you know, the American establishment, they did not tolerate people agitating for violence.

Violence -- you know, the cost of violence, especially for a community like Ferguson would be astronomical. So, they need to continuously reengage the community. That's your first line of defense in this.

BOLDUAN: One thing we've heard is it seems by night the approach of police, the tactic, if you will, is changing, that much to the frustration and the confusion of those who are trying to peacefully protest. They don't know what is allowed from one moment to the next.

Is that a change in strategy or is that a example of a failure of strategy, if you will, on the part of law enforcement?

O'DONNELL: It's very hard to get it right. One of the critical issues here having the competency to do it is doing it in the past, having experience doing it and having the multi-agencies there. I would assume they're running many contingency plans and sort of flying by the seat of their pants.

But they have to continue to focus. They can't get so tactically involved they don't understand the focus the engagement in the community and a peaceful resolution of this has to be consistently on, you know, the top of the agenda.

BOLDUAN: As we're seeing it night after night, it does not seem to be calming down. So the community engagement is going to be more and more important as the days progress.

General Russel Honore, thank you so much. Eugene O'Donnell, thank you as well.

We're going to continue the coverage. Obviously, a lot of breaking news coming out of Missouri this morning.

Coming up next on NEW DAY, who is triggering the violence in Ferguson as we're talking about? Are they outsiders -- is it the outsiders creating the chaos? We're going to go back down to Missouri, where Chris is, live in Ferguson.

Plus, new reports that a grand jury could look at evidence in Michael Brown's shooting death as soon as this week. What does it mean for the officer involved?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)

CUOMO: You're watching a scene from last night in Ferguson, Missouri a half mile stretch of road that is being literally viewed by people around the world to see what will happen next after the shooting of a young man here by a police officer. So, last night, another attempt at peaceful demonstration thwarted.

The question is why. Was it about police? Was it about a group of instigators doing this, all surrounding again the shooting of Michael Brown?

Now, Missouri Highway Police Captain Ron Johnson, he has been put as the commander of the situation. He says much of the violence came not from protesters but from, again, these instigators. He called them troublemakers who have infiltrated the crowd, possibly from out of town.

We have Chris King here. He's the editorial director of "The St. Louis American" newspaper. He works this community. He knows it very well.

Chris, thank you for joining us.

First, the immediate. Last night the tear gas came out. We see what happens on camera. People are suffering from the tear gassing and the disruption here in general, true?

CHRIS KING, EDITORIAL DIRECTOR, ST. LOUIS AMERICAN: Most immediately, Canfield-Green apartments is where this movement started and those folks are suffering. I was hearing from people last night, couldn't get their children to bed, loud, suffering from the tear gas.

But also in the neighborhood, our is staff at "The St. Louis American" live here. And they have tear gas on the front porches, you know? It's a problem, the effects of this.

CUOMO: Now, the question is, what makes it stop? From a far there seems to be a vacuum of leadership. Yes, you do have Captain Johnson, who was appointed from the highway police side, but the local leaders, you know, your politicians. Doesn't seem to be the infrastructure of leadership here, is that what the community feels?

KING: St. Louis has lacked across the board, and certainly not only in the black community. The corporate leadership in St. Louis should be doing something. They should be doing more to knock heads.

And this is bad for our region and the economic leadership knows this. What are they doing? I don't see them doing anything.

CUOMO: Now becomes the big question. This is the fault of the police, they're militarized. They're scaring us. That was the early take.

Then, it was -- no, you're not here to protest. You guys are here to start violence, and that's what's wrong with this community in the first place. Those were the battle lines.

You're saying there is a third answer here you believe is closest to the truth. You say you have information there are instigators, is the word you used, coming into the community and trying to start trouble and ruining protests. Yes?

KING: Yes. I mean, the militarized police tactics are partly a response to it. The first conflagration came from a Molotov cocktail. Those were never in Canfield-Green until now.

CUOMO: You came here. You live here. You have never seen that.

KING: Never. It came from Chicago. A communist group from Chicago, they came into the Canfield Green apartments. They showed the kids how to make them.

And they're still here, but they're not going to be here long. We're going run them out.

CUOMO: Now, is this what you're told or do you know it?

KING: I know it. We have a photojournalist embedded with them and many eyewitness residents in the community. One of them said to the governor of Missouri to fix the problem. He didn't do anything. But the community, the citizens are going to run them out.

CUOMO: Now, the translation becomes what we see on camera. I don't see right communist types getting arrested. I see who seem to be African-American locals. What are you saying, they're training them up?

KING: Well, they were arrested. There are pictures of arrest.

CUOMO: All right, good.

KING: And we're working on it. They're going to be run out.

CUOMO: All right. And when you say run out. What do you mean? Because the last thing we want is things done the wrong way.

KING: No vigilante justice. We'll going to make sure they're not here, though.

CUOMO: By how? Are you going to expose them for things online, let media like us knows it, so we can tell the truth of what's happening?

KING: We're working on it.

CUOMO: All right. I get your being secretive because you have your own process. But remember, what matters most is stability right now. This is a very small place we're talking about here. It's having big reverberations because of the issues involved.

Now, that takes us to the last point here. The community says it wants justice. All right?

The question becomes, what will justice mean? You have the "St. Louis Dispatch" saying they may have as many dozen eyewitnesses who will back up what the officer said what happened that night. The autopsy, as you know, had somewhat of a revelation. The thought it was done from behind. The autopsy may suggest otherwise.

What happens here if the officer winds up having had a justified shooting?

KING: Well, first the can the prosecutors manipulating this process --

CUOMO: How so?

KING: All the information should have come out at once as a group. But leaking out in pieces, he's encouraging the speculation and dragging it out. The innocence or guilt of Officer Wilson and he is innocent until proven guilty is one matter. We want justice in the case of Michael Brown.

But the police -- the Ferguson police in the unit when he was killed stood around the man for four hours while the community howled in pain and grief. It was torture on the community. Those are torture tactics that are common in Ferguson and St. Louis County and St. Louis City. That is what we're going to stop through the movement.

CUOMO: So, you're saying you're looking at the micro and macro. What happened with Michael Brown is horrible any way you look at it, has to be investigated and fully understood. But you're saying it tapped into other issues that this community is living with for a long time. It's just as a big a problem, that's not going away no matter what this situation results?

KING: "The St. Louis American", our newspaper, we're in it for the long run. We're going stop intimidation tactics of the black community by police in the St. Louis region. It's going to end with the movement.

CUOMO: Do you see hopefully tonight -- it's too early to know now. But when we're there, hopefully, we see more community organizers, more people coming out trying to control what it is so we can separate the instigators from the people who just want progress.

KING: Antonio French and others have been asking for men, black men would be most helpful to stay later and help cool down these young kids. The instigators, we're going to get them run out. And the economic leadership needs to pressure the police to slow down on the Gestapo tactics.