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New Day

Dozens Arrested in Ferguson Clashes; First Hand Accounts of Protests

Aired August 19, 2014 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRIS KING, EDITORIAL DIRECTOR, ST. LOUIS AMERICAN: The instigators, we're going to get them run out. And the economic leadership needs to pressure the police to slow down on the Gestapo tactics.

And above all, quit gassing residents. Tear gas has been shot into the backyards of residents. There are videos of this. That's not acceptable.

Captain Ron Johnson should not accept any gassing of residents in the neighborhood or peaceful protesters, but especially, the collateral damage of residents is shameful and most stop.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: But you know how quickly it gets confused and chaotic and in the response is just general not as targeted as possibly it could be.

But, Chris, this is an ongoing conversation. Let's see what happens tonight. Let's hope we have less to talk about of this type of gassing and reaction tomorrow than we did after last night.

Thank you very much. We appreciate.

Let's take a break here now on NEW DAY.

When we come back, we're going to have more what really happened when Michael Brown was shot. Information is trickling out. It is slow. But we are starting to hear from friends of the officer who shot him. We're going to hear some of what they say happened from him coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to NEW DAY.

Let's give you a look at some of your headline.

And we start in Iraq. President Obama saying Kurdish and Iraqi forces have retaken control of Iraq's largest dam from ISIS militants with help from some 35 U.S. airstrikes. Pope Francis weighing in now saying efforts to stop militants from attacking religious minorities in Iraq are legitimate. But he said the international community should decide collectively how to intervene.

Israel and Hamas have agreed to extend their cease-fire. Another 24 hours. It is set to end midnight local time. This will allow time for negotiators in Cairo to hammer out a long-term peace deal. Now, according to an Israel official, Prime Minister Benjamin

Netanyahu tried to hide a draft cease-fire plan from cabinet members. Netanyahu told cabinet members if a draft agreement was presented that met his commands, he would bring it to them for discussion and for a vote.

Ukrainian military claims rebel forces killed dozens of refugees in an attack on a civilian car caravan. Authorities 15 bodies have been recovered so far. However, rebels are denying any attack took place. Those civilians were reportedly attacked with rockets and other weapons imported from Russia, to the rebel-held city of Luhansk.

In the meantime, Russian's foreign minister said there's no progress in talks aimed at a ceasefire between Ukraine and pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine.

Back here state side -- quite a scare in Southern California. It looks as though police have prevented yet another school tragedy. They have arrested two students who allegedly plan to shoot and kill three staff members and as many students as they could at South Pasadena High School. Officials at the school tipped them off and one of the suspects tried to flee from police. Psychologists and counselors should be at the school when classes begin Thursday -- certainly a shadow over an otherwise sleepy, little town. Very close to where I used to live. Anecdotally, not something they, I think, anticipated. Family members and school officials and parents glad that police acted quickly.

BOLDUAN: Of course. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Let's turn back to the breaking news now that we're following all morning. Violent protests overnight in Ferguson, Missouri, 10 days after the shooting death of Michael Brown. The community is still outraged and searching for answers.

Well, now, there are reports a grand jury could look at evidence in Brown's shooting. Some point as early as this week. This is reports of Officer Darren Wilson's version of events are just starting to come out.

Joining us now to discuss, Paul Callan, CNN legal analyst, former prosecutor and criminal defense attorney. And Mo Ivory, an attorney and radio personality.

Good morning to both of you. A lot to get through this morning.

We're going to put the protest aside, because I want to talk about the investigation, the version of events, and the autopsies that we now are learning more about. I want us to first remind viewers and have you guys listen to the version of events. This is by a person who only is known a Josie. She called into a local radio station, KFTK, gave her version of events that came from Darren Wilson -- a source close to the investigation with detailed knowledge of the investigation says, "This is accurate in the sense that this is what Darren Wilson told investigators."

Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSIE, CALLER ON KFTK: Michael takes off with gun get to be about 35 feet away and Darren, first protocol is to pursue. So, he stands up and I was freeze. Michael and his friend turn around and Michael starts talking about him. What are you going to do about it? You're not going to shoot me.

And then he said, all the sudden, he started to bum rush him. He started coming at him full speed. And he just coming. So, he really thinks he was on something. Because he kept coming. It was unbelievable. So, the finally financial the final shot was in the forehead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Very different version of events, Paul, than what we've heard previously to the point. What do you make of it? Probably not a surprise that the other person involved in this is a very different story.

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it's not a surprise to me, because I find in these cases when there are a lot of witnesses to an event, as those witness accounts are revealed, you find that they're different perspectives and you also find there may be an entirely different story.

BOLDUAN: Why haven't we heard the perspective yet?

CALLAN: Well, I think we haven't heard because traditionally in these officer-involved shootings, the prosecutor will be handling the case, ultimately, keeps a very tight reign on the information.

And normally the public isn't looking that closely at the particular case. It's only maybe the family of the person who was killed. And you don't have the kinds of problems you're seeing here.

I think this is the kind of case, because of the rioting, maybe we have to throw out the rule book in how these things are traditionally handled and make the investigation more transparent.

I think the officer's side of the story should have come out a lot earlier so people could see why there might be a delay in making a decision.

BOLDUAN: Mo, what do you make of this version of the events?

MO IVORY, RADIO PERSONALITY: Sure, I agree completely with Paul. I mean, it seems there is caution taken for any statements that relate to the officer, but when it comes to information about Michael Brown -- or any of the witnesses that have testified to what they have seen -- what they saw in his killing, then it's free reign. Put the information out quickly.

I'm concerned with the prosecutor being willing to hold back on information as it relates to the officer versus information as it relates to, you know, the victim, which is Michael Brown, and which is the actual, you know, sort of person he is supposed to be trying to find justice for. So, the cries for him to step down I think only increase when this kind of information comes out and being protected for the officer.

BOLDUAN: For me, I guess, there's a little bit of a question, Mo, and I want to get your take -- the difference between prosecutor here and the local police force, if there is a difference. Because one of the criticisms early on is that there were such a selective release of information coming from the police, that it fed into the lack -- complete lack of trust from the community. That's not even come from the prosecutor.

IVORY: Sure. I mean, I actually do think that there's -- we all know that there's a difference between what the authorities are supposed to be doing and what the prosecutor is doing. But even very early on when Ronnie Johnson was appointed, the prosecutor made a comment about not agreeing that Ronnie Johnson should come in and take over for the police department of Ferguson.

And he even made a statement that said he didn't feel it was fair to the police, because it made them feel inept. So, we're trying to the boundaries between the prosecutor and the police department. It would be in the best interest of the prosecutor to stop commenting on his thoughts about the police department.

BOLDUAN: Do you think also, Paul, that the prosecutor, the local prosecutor here, there's a chance he could be stepping down. What would it do to the case? What would do to a change of venue type of situation? What do you think?

CALLAN: Well, you know, Kate, you're going see a shift now in attention toward the prosecutor.

BOLDUAN: There sure is. I'm already seeing articles that are calling into question his background.

CALLAN: Well, Bob McCulloch, the prosecuting attorney, who is the man in control of the investigation he's the guy behind the curtain, very close ties to the police -- mother, father, uncle, cousin, brother. All employees of the police department at one time or another. His father actually was killed in an incident involving the arrest of a black suspect.

BOLDUAN: In your mind, it discredits him to handle the case?

CALLAN: No, it doesn't necessarily in terms of him as a lawyer. He may be the fairest person in the world. But you know people in the community will be sensitive to this. The federal government is investigating. So, Eric Holder could supersede the locals at any point and take over the investigation. You may also see pressure for a special prosecutor to be appointed by Governor Nixon in the case.

That's why I think McCulloch is convening a grand jury this week to start hearing the case -- BOLDUAN: It's moving along?

CALLAN: It's moving fast. Usually, these cases move along more slowly, believe it or not, because he doesn't want to be supersede by other prosecutors.

BOLDUAN: Go ahead, Mo.

IVORY: Sure. And, Kate, and it's also important to look at the prosecutor's record. And, for example, he prosecuted a case where two African-Americans who were killed by two white police officers at the Jack and a Box were not charged.

You think about his skills as a lawyer that's one thing. His perceptions and the idea behalf he believes and how he prosecutes the case is what's really important.

So, here you have a prosecutor who has a family line of police officers, a father who was killed by an African-American, and another case where he didn't prosecute two African-Americans who were killed by two white police officers. It just doesn't seem right.

CALLAN: You also have to say, though -- you know, we're talking about elected officials in a county.

IVORY: Absolutely.

CALLAN: He's the elected, selected by the people prosecutor for St. Louis County. So it's really, you know, hard to say we should throw him out the prosecutorial role until we see actual evidence of bias.

IVORY: Sure.

CALLAN: I don't know we've seen that yet.

IVORY: Well, I'm not sure we haven't. Also, when you say elected by the people -- and this is not to make an excuse for black people not voting. But we know there isn't a huge turnout of black people in Ferguson, Missouri, or even in the area that come out to vote. So, he's elected by the people that, you know, are always represented to the advantage.

So, that's no excuse at all. People need to vote. That's how things would change.

BOLDAUN: That is one of the, I think we can say, many lessons that can be learn from the situation. First and foremost, trying to understand exactly what is happening in the case. And exactly what version of events is the truth. That's with where the investigation needs to be focusing. That's what we'll be talking about more here on the show.

Mo, thank you very.

Paul, thanks so much. A lot to work through on the case and beyond. Coming up next on NEW DAY, we're going to continue to cover more of

this and look at the chaos in Ferguson. A CNN crew on the ground caught in the middle of the violence. We're going to hear their account of how peace so quickly turned to mayhem.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

CUOMO (voice-over): The headline now much broader than just the shooting of Michael Brown. The picture tells the story. Another night in Ferguson, Missouri. Another night turmoil.

As you just saw, peaceful demonstrations, that's how it started, but they did deteriorate once again into violence as opportunists, or instigators, or whatever you want to call them, took over. Those opened fire on police, leaving two protesters wounded. More than 30 arrests were made after that. Stun grenades, tear gas also used. Several members of our CNN crew caught in the thick of the madness, including our correspondent Ed Lavandera and producer Steve Kastenbaum. They are with us now.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

CUOMO (on camera): Guys, so you were in the middle of it last night. A lot of this footage is your own. In your opinion, Ed, what went wrong?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I just think that they were trying to control these more militant elements of the scene here. That is just something that the authorities here haven't been able to figure out how to do that.

CUOMO: Why not?

LAVANDERA: I just think, a couple of moments that just stood out to me from last night. We had religious leaders out there, community leaders that were, had a little bit more street cred, if you will, right? And even those guys couldn't get through. You could see them. They were up in their faces like if you do this, if you do this, don't do this. I mean, it was tense.

CUOMO: Obstinate youth, or Steve do you buy into the instigator theory that maybe these guys are out of towners, or maybe they're people being told things, you know, and wicked up before they get there at night. What do you think?

STEVE KASTENBAUM, CNN PRODUCER: There definitely are out of towners here. Last night I saw the t-shirts from several organizations that I recognized from when I covered Occupy Wall Street, for instance, and other demonstrations. Not just Occupy, I'm not meaning to single that out. But we definitely saw people there last night who were intent on being defiant, going head to head with police and, like Ed said, refusing to listen to the community leaders who are telling them not to do this. At the same time, night after night after night we've heard the gunshots. There are people in this crowd who are here to do more than just protest who come here armed. And they're a very small number. The police have talked to us about this. They showed us the guns tonight that they confiscated and we heard the gunshots while we were up there.

CUOMO: You saw somebody lightening a fire, also.

KASTENBAUM: Yes. During that really tense standoff with police right around where Mike Brown was shot. The tear gas canisters were going off, flash grenades were going off and right around then we saw somebody, an individual, try to light a building on fire while we were up there. And this is a small number of people compared to the hundreds of people that came out yesterday and were protesting, marching up-and-down peacefully.

CUOMO: Ed, is it the same themes that are bringing people out? You know, are they feeding off the information that is coming out about the investigation, or are these long-held feelings that are just bubbling over because of what happened with Michael Brown?

LAVANDERA: I think you get a little bit of both. The Michael Brown -- that's the case. But their bigger point is what you're talking about.

CUOMO: An arrest of the officer, does that make this go away?

LAVANDERA: From the sense that I get I think anything short of a conviction is going to be tough to swallow for a lot of those people. I'm not saying that's right or wrong. Obviously this process needs to play out. I don't sense a lot of, you hear repeatedly a lot of people wondering why he hasn't even been indicted yet. This case hasn't even gone to a grand jury, as far as we know.

CUOMO: Well, they maybe have one in panel, maybe taking a look. You can rest without indictment, as we all know. That investigation, of course, being parallel with just this overall social condition. There's been a lot of talk about the militarization of the police and heavy-handed tactics. But, Steve, you did Occupy Wall Street, so did I. We've all, Ed, we've seen so many bad situations around the world. This is only a half mile street as you guys laid out the area to me. Is there an argument to be made that there is tolerance by the authorities here, because they could overcome this area very quickly and suppress this number of people very quickly if they wanted to. Is there a little bit more tolerance night after night by the authorities?

KASTENBAUM: I think we saw more restraint from the police department last night than we had seen in previous nights. They stood their ground, they formed lines and then they didn't move in on the crowd. On the previous nights, we saw them within a short period of time move in on the crowd after they did not obey the orders to disperse. Last night, the order came multiple times and yet they did not move in. When they saw somebody throw a bottle at the police out of the crowd, a bad actor as the police have been calling them, you saw the riot police pointing. They identified the person in the crowd then a small team would emerge from the larger - -

CUOMO: A specific targeted removal of that person. KASTENBAUM: Right. Exactly.

LAVANDERA: Chris, let me also say too, because what I saw from the authorities, what I've heard from several of the police on the ground. When you ask them about why are they going - - or they're being asked, not us asking, but they're why are you coming in here with the tanks and that sort of thing? They have to disperse into these neighborhoods and find the people who are firing off the shots. I hear repeatedly from the officers out there that you can't send a patrol car in there. The bullets will fly right through the door so you can't send a patrol officer in there. You need that heavier equipment. Now, it's up to other people to debate whether or not that's right or wrong. I'm letting you know what these officers are saying. They bring in those tanks, you have an officer up high. They're able to see above the crowd. That makes them feel a lot more secure.

CUOMO: Captain Johnson last night, as you guys said, more emotional than we've seen him in the past. He's worried about the kids in those houses, you know, and the drive by shootings and doing whatever he can to stop the violence. Hopefully tonight gets better. Guys like you, Steve and Ed, putting yourself in harm's way. But without you, we wouldn't know about this instigator group, we wouldn't know about this component. It would look like its just cops versus locals. So thank you for the reporting and thanks for being here.

KASTENBAUM: Thank you.

CUOMO: I'll be with you tonight.

Coming up on NEW DAY, much more on the chaos that continues to overwhelm this community in Ferguson. We're going to talk with a bishop who tried to keep the peace. Remember, there is a vacuum of leadership, then you have the investigative side. We'll have a forensic pathologist who took part in the private autopsy of Michael Brown. That's the one you've heard about, not the state's autopsy. We'll find out what it shows from their perspective. Stay with us.

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