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Violent Protests Erupt in Ferguson; When Will Clashes End?; Interview with Art McCoy of Ferguson; Interview with Forensic Pathologist Shawn Parcells

Aired August 19, 2014 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to NEW DAY. We're live from Ferguson, Missouri, following the breaking news once again. A calmer scene now, thank God, after a night of chaos that you just saw. Nothing unusual here.

The question is when will it end? The city clearly struggling to cope with protests and clashes with police. What started it? Everyone knows the answer. Michael Brown's shooting as well as the troubling images coming out of Ferguson that raise big questions about what really motivates the frustration and the anger.

The question here is what I'm going put to you, Mr. Art McCoy. The first African-American superintendent of schools here, and that was the Ferguson Florissant School District, resigned just in March.

And I know that was a situation that feeds into your feelings about how race is constructed. There's the word. When you say it in the media, race now means race baiting. It's inflammatory. It's incendiary. It's a distraction.

But what do you make of have. When you look at the situation in the community and why we're seeing what we are seeing, can you ignore that race matters here?

ART MCCOY, FIRST AFRICAN-AMERICAN SUPERINTENDENT, FERGUSON: First, I want to extend my condolences to the Michael Brown family and anyone affected by this situation. Race is like oxygen in the air. It's present. It's always present. People may not always see it or claim it, but it definitely impacts what is occurring.

I have to quote the words of Michael McDonald, who graduated from Ferguson in this area. You don't know me, but I'm your brother. And the issue of race is this issue of empathy and connecting and understanding that some people are living in a living hell every day.

But some others have the privilege of not knowing that and not being a part of that. Race has a way of making it hidden, insulated, and people withdraw to their own corners, and say that's their problem. This is a humanity issue. It makes us have to come together or at least acknowledge some things that have been here for a long time.

CUOMO: Is the reality of what has been here for a long time is that there are too many mothers who see their kids in Michael Brown. There are too many young Brown men that said it could be me because I just don't get treated the way that a white kid would.

MCCOY: For certain. Many protesters are here and they stand as 10,000. They come as one, but they stand as 10,000. What we see is people who have many issues and no other means to be heard. Riot is mentioned often as the language of the unheard.

We don't applaud or encourage or incite riots. We have to acknowledge that we need listen to individuals who have been voiceless. Individuals who have been underserve.

But also understand that there's a commonality between those individuals and the individuals that may not be here today. We need to understand that there's a connection with this.

Because the welfare of one affects the welfare of all. If there's injustice one place then there's a possibility of injustice anywhere.

CUOMO: I think you see that in the truth of situation. Let's be honest, why do people watch. It's tantalizing. There is fighting in the streets and people are drawn by the picture. The media is drawn to it.

The question is what do you do with it? The people said we need to find out what happened with Michael Brown. It's much bigger than Michael Brown. Not to diminish his loss, his family's loss.

But what happens here day in and day out in this community that you worked in with the cops and the community.

MCCOY: Definitely. I work with cops and the community. I'm a part of the community. I grew up five miles from where we're standing here in the community. I'm still a part of it. What we see is the need for sustained, united leadership.

It's easy to come one day, it's easy to come for one week. It's even been done for a month. But sustained united leadership, white, black, brown, all in between to understand and to talk about what we need to make our community better.

CUOMO: Fair criticism. Don't loot. Don't blow stuff up. Don't try to attack the cops. If you stop doing that, the cops won't bother you.

MCCOY: Definitely.

CUOMO: What is the reaction?

MCCOY: The reaction to that is that again, riot is the language of the unheard. Individuals are taking actions. This is their form of speech acts. We need to tell those individuals that there's a productive way to do this and that violence has no place here.

Violence brought us to this point right now, but violence has no place here in this situation. We will not be heard or respect if we do things in a way that's not respected.

CUOMO: Now one thing we do see growing here, there is more clergy. There are people coming out organically almost as the head of the community to try and deal with the legitimate side of this protest.

But my question to you is where are the people at the head of the parade, where are those big elected leaders and the locals who come with their security and their staff that feed the community what it need to keep focussed on what really matters. I feel like there is no one at the head of the parade at night when they come to protest.

MCCOY: Definitely. It's a great question. You know, many people voice their concerns with the fact that elected officials show up several days later both black and white. Ultimately that's the issue here. There's not always been a sustained presence of --

CUOMO: They don't feel spoken for. They feel when they go back home like they're being told to right now it ends.

MCCOY: That's right. On the other hand, I was present with many officials in a rally as well as at the church service to make sure that we come together and raise structures for feedback loops in order to be heard and have representative government serve its true purpose.

So different systems and different organizations are coming together. There are also grassroots. I'm part of my Brother's Keeper Initiative and Boy Scouts of America Initiative. Two very different groups. The Boy Scouts of America has primarily white.

I'm not white, but at the same time, we're bridging to make sure that the people in leadership are doing something to mentor students and youth. Now we have to target those who feel unheard. It's a different population that we have to touch.

CUOMO: Just as the cycle we're seeing here in Ferguson repeats night after night. If you don't have better dialogue in between these moments, that cycle continues as well.

MCCOY: Yes, it does.

CUOMO: Art McCoy, thank you very much. Thank you for being straight with us about it. When you ask the questions alone, just saying what about the looting. Stop it. It's offensive. It's divisive. People want to fight.

But then you see situations like here in Ferguson and what will make it end? Nothing. Nothing unless the community comes together and if you have unity here. Not just among police and protesters, but this community as a whole. We'll keep talking about this as we cover the situation here.

Right now a quick break on NEW DAY. When we come back, the information that you're hearing about what happened to Michael Brown's body is a function of a private autopsy. It raised a lot of questions, certainly as many as it answered. We are going to talk to a forensic pathologist who helped with that procedure and get their take. Also asking what the results will tell us about the shooting and what the investigation may yield going forward.

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KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: We're following the breaking news for you as you saw a violent night of demonstrations erupted in Ferguson, Missouri overnight. It came hours after the release of the independent autopsy commissioned by Michael Brown's parents. It found that the unarmed teenager had been shot six times.

Joining us this morning is Shawn Parcells. He is a forensic pathologist, who took part in that private autopsy. Sean, thanks so much for joining us this morning.

SHAWN PARCELLS, CONDUCTED PRIVATE AUTOPSY ON MICHAEL BROWN: No problem. Thank you for having me.

BOLDUAN: Of course. There's a lot of attention, as probably not surprised at all to you, on these autopsy results and what you found. Of course, on the gunshot wounds. I want to call up that diagram of one of the things that we saw there. Where you're kind of pointing out entry and exit wounds and where it landed.

When you see the diagram, it looks like it's all on the front of the body. From your analysis, is it possible that he could have been shot from behind? Can you explain what your analysis has shown?

PARCELLS: Yes. The one shot in particular that could have come from the back would have been the gunshot wound that happened to -- and keep in mind when you look at that chart, you're talking about the body being in the anatomical position.

We really don't stand in that position. But we call this the medial aspect of the forearm, and if you're standing up, like I'm facing the camera now and I put my arm down like I'm walking, this portion of your arm is actually facing backwards.

So if a shot came from the back, it could have hit this part of the arm and that shot actually exited out of this part of the arm. It was a through and through.

BOLDUAN: Shawn, is it your analysis that he was shot from behind or just that it's a possibility you cannot conclude that?

PARCELLS: We can't rule it out. We can't conclude 100 percent that's where the shot came from. Because you could also put your arm up this way as if you're running or you're putting your arms up like you're surrendering and the shot comes from affront.

It can hit that same region of the body, or it could have been a shot like this where you're putting your hands up to block something like a defensive type wound. BOLDUAN: And the head wound, Shawn, is where a lot of attention must be as it seems to be the fatal wound. From your perspective, from your analysis, what you see on Michael Brown's body was he falling, was he charging?

And I asked that because now we have this new account coming out from someone that the officer's account of events is beginning to come out. One of the things that is said is that Michael bum rushed the officer. Seemed to be charging at the officer. From your analysis, what do you think?

PARCELLS: Sure. Both are possibilities. I did hear he charged the officer. I heard it yesterday. Also, keep in mind that Mr. Brown was a very tall individual. We don't know from our forensic analysis yet, how tall the officer is compared to Mr. Brown.

And the fact that the two shots to the head, one coming in right above the right eye brow and one at the top of the apex, if the officer is significantly shorter than Mr. Brown is, then Mr. Brown, as he's charging toward the officer is going have to be bent over to achieve the trajectories we saw.

However, if you look at Mr. Brown falling, just falling straightforward as he's going toward face first toward the ground then the same trajectories can be met as well. Again, we have to really have a reconstruction of the shooting scene. We've got to know the distance.

We've got to know what events occurred in the car. We have to know how tall the officer is compared to how tall Mr. Brown is to really put this information back together and say more conclusively what is a better theory as to what happened?

BOLDUAN: And that gets to, I think, an important question. Not only what you know but also what you don't know. What is the biggest unknown what is missing to complete your analysis, would you say?

PARCELLS: Well, number one, Dr. Baden and I really need to see the first autopsy. We need to understand what that pathologist saw. We need to see the photographs, the report. We need understand his analysis, the toxicology report. We need to see Mr. Brown's clothing to see if there were any gunshots at close range because we didn't see the clothing and the clothing can filter out gunshot residue that won't get on to the skin.

I know, there's been talk about a possible gunshot going off in the car. We need to know what events occured there. What processing of the car the authorities have done? We need to understand, also, as I said, the officer's height compared to the height of Mr. Brown.

Also, very importantly the officer's account. Not the friend's account but the officer's account of what happened. If you have ten witnesses that say something that they saw that the attorneys can filter out down to five who are credible.

We put those together and start ruling out theories that don't make any sense. Then you come down to one or two theories and say this is probably what happened.

BOLDUAN: And you can fit it into your science and what you found in your autopsy. Shawn Parcells, thank you very much for your time this morning.

PARCELLS: No problem. Thank you for having me.

BOLDUAN: Of course. Coming up next on NEW DAY, much more on what really happened when Michael Brown was shot. Friends of the officer who shot him are starting to speak out. We're going to hear some more of what they say happened coming up.

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PEREIRA: Good to have you back with us here on NEW DAY. Violence and unrest flaring up again overnight in Ferguson, Missouri, following the death of 18-year-old Michael Brown. There are differing accounts of what happened during that shooting, an apparent friend of Wilson, the officer involved, has come forward.

Claiming that the officer was bum-rushed by the unarmed teenager, but witnesses on the ground say Brown was not attacked, was not attacking the officer.

We want to discuss this all and so much more with Mark O'Mara, CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney. We also have our Jeffrey Toobin here, CNN senior analyst as well.

Gentlemen, there's so much for us to wade through and I'll ask for your patience because there is really a lot. Right off the bat, Mark, we understand that the spokesman for the St. Louis County prosecuting attorney says all of the evidence could go to a grand jury as early as tomorrow. Does this seem like a reasonable time line? Is this unusual?

MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think it's rushed. I think it's rushed for a bad reason. If I understood what he said correctly they're going to get this to the grand jury almost piecemeal. As it comes in, they'll present it to the grand jury. I think that's the worst thing that they can do.

Because it will cause the grand jury the same problems it's causing the public, not to mention after the fact, if an indictment should issue, I or some criminal defense attorney will look at the case and go wait a minute, you did this so unusually that it may cause a problem.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Actually, I don't think that's necessarily the truth. There's a lot of evidence here. We're talking about the grand jury, which is a body that will consider the evidence in an organized way.

There's a lot, they have to provide it a little bit at a time. They can't just throw it all in the grand jury, and I don't see anything wrong with proceeding expeditiously getting some evidence to them as it happens, so that the matter can be resolved. After full consideration of all the evidence, but not necessarily waiting until to put it in.

PEREIRA: The rush to justice I can understand and I think many of us could the need for that, because of what is going on, on the ground, and the scenes that we're seeing play out overnight.

It does make one wonder if this is the best course of action for getting to justice for the family, because that's the key here right now. I think the community wants one thing, but the family certainly needs some answers.

O'MARA: The family deserves answers and I'm hoping and it seems to be the case that they are involving the family and their representatives in the information. I hope that the family, for example, knew the cop's name a lot before the rest of us did. There's no reason not to.

They have to be involved. My concern is this sort of rush to judgment, there's a lot of issues to address, a lot of principles to address, if we rush through it, you'll have more critics about the way it was done.

PEREIRA: Can I play the sound from the radio interview? It was Radio America, the Dana show, a woman named Josie calls in to share the officer, Darren Wilson's, version of events. Let's listen to it real quick.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

"JOSIE," CALLER ON "THE DANA SHOW": Michael takes off with his friend. They get to be about 35 feet away and Darren, of course, protocol is to pursue, so he stands up and yells, freeze. Michael and his friend turn around and Michael starts taunting him. What are you going to do about it?

You know, you're not going to shoot me, and he said all of a sudden he just started to bum-rush him. He started come at him full speed and he just started shooting, and he just kept coming, so he really thinks he was on something because he kept coming. It was unbelievable, so he finally ended up, the time shot was in the forehead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: To you, Jeffrey, does this change how this all, the fact at the end of the day a teenager is dead?

TOOBIN: Let's start with the fact that this was at best a thirdhand account.

PEREIRA: Sure.

TOOBIN: Josie spoke to the girlfriend of the officer, so I mean, whether this is an accurate version of what he says, you know, is very much an open question. It is suggestive of an account that is helpful to the officer, but it raises a lot of questions, too. I mean, just cause someone is running at you, doesn't mean you shoot him six times.

PEREIRA: That's the question, is it reasonable. TOOBIN: You have to know a lot more about the scientific evidence, how far away he was when the shots were fired. I mean, yes, it is suggestive of a defense, but the scientific evidence may refute it as well.

PEREIRA: And police have confirmed that that is the account that Darren Wilson has given. Overall, Mark, a lot, if you step away, I'm not a legal mind and not an investigator, to some, this is looking like an investigation that is at best botched. Agree or disagree and Jeff, I want your reaction.

O'MARA: If I was a prosecutor I would come out and say this is my investigation, hands off. If a cop says something about this investigation I'll have him fired. Take control of the investigation, give the public a persona to look at and say I'm in charge of my investigation. We will do it right, we'll take the time we have to take and the result is going to be fair and just, when we get to it, but I'm not going to rush.

TOOBIN: Someone has to be in charge. I'm not prepared to say it's botched yet. Let's let them assemble all the evidence, reach a resolution, and then decide whether they're right or wrong. I think there are two very different things going on here, the investigation, I don't know whether it will be a success or failure and I don't know what success or failure is. The crowd control efforts are an entirely separate issue --

PEREIRA: Entirely separate issue.

TOOBIN: That has been a total failure.

PEREIRA: That needs to be brought under control. Calm needs to come to Ferguson. Mark O'Mara, Jeffrey Toobin, thank you so much for bringing your legal minds here. We appreciate it.

Short break here, on NEW DAY, ahead much more on the ongoing unrest in Ferguson. We're going to speak with a woman who knows the very pain that Michael Brown's parents are feeling, the mother of Trayvon Martin joins us live. She has her words for the slain teen's family.

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