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New Day

Some Call for Prosecuting Attorney in Michael Brown Shooting Case to Recuse Himself; Eric Holder Visits Missouri Today; Interview with Daryl Parks; Grisly Video Shows ISIS Beheading American Journalist

Aired August 20, 2014 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: There's a lot to find out about the investigation. Let's get to George Howell. He's following it for us. George.

GEORGE HOWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Chris, good morning to you. So, yes, a lot playing out now here on the legal front. In the forefront, as you mentioned, Attorney General Eric Holder coming here to Ferguson, promising people a complete and thorough federal investigation.

But in the backdrop there are questions about St. Louis' prosecuting attorney, the St. Louis County prosecuting attorney, and whether he can handle fairly a case like this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HOWELL (voice-over): Attorney General Eric Holder's promise to St. Louis, a full commitment to the investigation of Michael Brown's death. Holder, who has been briefed on the preliminary findings of the federal autopsy, arriving today in the St. Louis suburb. Addressing the people in an op-ed, he writes, quote, "This is my pledge to the people of Ferguson -- our investigation into this matter will be full. It will be fair. It will be independent."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police shot this boy outside my apartment.

HOWELL: The first evidence of Brown's shooting may be presented to the grand jury today, including eyewitness testimony.

ROBERT MCCULLOCH, ST. LOUIS COUNTY PROSECUTING ATTORNEY: We will do a full, fair, complete, and impartial investigation into this.

HOWELL: Robert McCulloch, chief prosecutor for the past 23 years in St. Louis, is the man who is responsible for pursuing any prosecution in the shooting. Community members are demanding that he be taken off the case because of his strong ties to the police department.

JAMILAH NASHEED, (D) MISSOURI STATE SENATOR: Voluntarily recuse yourself from this investigation. The people and the African-American community, they do not have the confidence that you will be fair and impartial.

HOWELL: Missouri state senator is also asking for a special prosecutor to take over the case.

MCCULLOCH: You know, I can't guarantee and won't guarantee and nobody can any particular outcome on the investigation because we don't know where the investigation is going to end up.

HOWELL: Several members of McCulloch's family are police officers, including his father, who was murdered in 1964 while on duty. The man convicted was African-American.

CHARLIE DOOLEY, COUNTY EXECUTIVE, ST. LOUIS COUNTY: They don't believe that this person is committed to justice for them, and that's important to recognize.

HOWELL: Tens of thousands have signed this online petition asking for McCulloch's removal from the case. His office has released this statement to CNN, quote, "He's been reelected every four years by an overwhelming majority of St. Louis County. The people have faith in Mr. McCulloch, and he'll continue to do his duties."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOWELL (on camera): And new this morning, we also got information from Governor Jay Nixon's office. Basically the governor saying that he would not ask Mr. McCulloch to recuse himself from this case, so no political pressure for that to happen. Instead, Chris, it would have to be a decision that Mr. McCulloch would make personally. It's a situation we continue to follow today, along with the attorney general coming to town. A lot happening today for sure.

CUOMO: You could argue, George, that the governor just helped himself with that statement, because there's plenty of pressure on the local prosecutor to step down. We'll see what happens.

Part of that is being felt with the introduction of this federal investigation as well by the grand jury, so let's bring in someone who understands the dynamic very well, Robert Driscoll, former deputy assistant attorney general in the civil rights division of the United States department of justice. Of course, that's what the A.G. heads up. Mr. Driscoll, thanks for joining us. Let me ask you a couple of procedural things here to get to the point of needing a federal investigation. McCulloch, do you think he should recuse himself given the distrust of the community and given his strong ties in his own family to the local police force?

ROBERT DRISCOLL, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT A.G., JUSTICE DEPARTMENT: I don't know the situation on the ground there well enough, but absent very unusual circumstances he's an elected prosecutor. The community has elected him to handle difficult cases like this, and I don't see a reason for him to recuse himself. I sympathize with members of the community who may not trust local law enforcement and want a federal investigation as well, but I'm not aware of anything that would require McCulloch to recuse himself.

CUOMO: Now while people are welcoming the A.G. investigation at the federal level, it's also a vote of no confidence in McCulloch. But let me ask you something -- do people have too high an expectation of what this will lead to. Do you think this investigation, even with Holder coming to town is going to lead to a trail?

DRISCOLL: I fear people's expectations are too high. The bar for a criminal civil rights indictment is very high, much less a conviction, and I think that the community and onlookers should be prepared for the possibility that there won't be sufficient facts to bring a criminal civil rights investigation. Simply because the attorney general is going -- is going to be on the ground does not mean there will be any particular outcome. The government would have to prove that the officer intentionally violated Michael Brown's civil rights, which is a much different standard than simply that there was something amiss with the shooting.

CUOMO: And, again, here on the ground, that's exactly what people think. But thinking it and showing and proving it in a court of law is something else. You know, you pointed that out in an op-ed, and I think a lot of people will remember this, eyebrows popped up, you got a federal investigation from the attorney general into Trayvon Martin. Nothing ever came of that one. We never heard of it again. Do you think that this is the kind of situation that we'll see here with Michael Brown?

DRISCOLL: That's the risk of getting too far out in front in a situation like this is that the community wants some kind of action, and you take action which suggests that there's going to be a particular outcome, but then in the long run you have to explain what the standards are and why these cases are difficult to bring, and maybe the attorney general may have to explain months from now from a criminal civil rights indictment isn't in the cards. So it's a question of whether you have a difficult conversation now and explain to people how tough these cases are or whether you end up having a difficult conversation later.

CUOMO: Or no conversation at all and you hope people forget. I mean, how much criticism is fair in this situation that this is more show than go on the federal level, that you come in here, you get people's expectations up, you do your own autopsy, you say you've interviewed hundreds of witnesses, you say you have 40-plus FBI guys on the ground, and then nothing? Does it deserve criticism right now?

DRISCOLL: I don't think so. It's appropriate in every police- involved shooting everywhere in the country that the FBI and civil rights division will at least open a file and take a look to see if there might be some kind of police misconduct that's worthy of a federal criminal indictment. But I think if you go back and look, those indictments and prosecutions and convictions are rare, particularly in police-involved shooting cases. But I don't criticize the attorney general for being on the ground.

CUOMO: At least it gives the situation attention, it shows an urgency, it shows some level of importance here that will help the community. And who knows? If they find something unique, maybe it does take the situation in a different direction. They could obviously share information.

Let me ask you this. On local level, McCulloch, the prosecutor here, is maybe going to start presenting to a grand jury. You understand grand juries very well. Why not an arrest, a criminal complaint, and a probable cause hearing where there's a judge unlike in a grand jury? Do you think that would have been a better route to take here?

DRISCOLL: I think it's a judgment call, but I think that the motion behind a grand jury is you have got members of the community making these decisions. It's an important case. It's very high profile, and I think that sometimes the view is if you want to emphasize that the process has not been politicized and you're not looking for a particular outcome you leave it in the hands of the average citizens who are on the grand jury. So that's not a decision I can find fault with at all sitting in Washington today.

CUOMO: But as we both know, when you go to a grand jury, you can also be seen as punting, putting it off on the people, saying the people didn't want a charge, that's how it is. But you don't know what evidence was presented. You don't know how forcefully it was made because it's a secretive proceeding, whereas if they had a probable cause hearing off a criminal complaint you've got a judge, it's open to the public and media scrutiny, and there's an arrest that goes along with it, even if there are no eventual charges or prosecution and that would have inspired confidence as well. Fair criticism?

DRISCOLL: Again, I don't think so, because I think that if the prosecutor acts on his own and makes an arrest, then the accusation is that that decision is politicized and either he's responding to kind of mob justice in a sense by arresting the officer because essentially the community wants him to right now or he declines prosecution and is criticized for that as well. So I think, that you know, there's problems either way you go and the route they have chosen is not a typical route, and so I can't criticize it.

CUOMO: And I appreciate your take on this because what I'm hitting you with is exactly the set of suspicions and questions we are hearing on the ground with a lot of media and analysts looking on as well. So it's good to get the take of somebody who knows the business.

So finally, the A.G. is actually coming. That is unusual. And you could say the way president has been dealing with and the administration in general is somewhat unusual given what we know. Do you think this is a strong move for the attorney general coming here, or do you think it's fraught with risk?

DRISCOLL: He has to walk a fine line, but I think it's a good move. It's an important case. Everyone is very concerned about the case. I think he can add some confidence by showing up. But he has to walk a fine line because to the extent his presence is seen as a commitment that certain specific federal action will eventually be taken, he runs the risk of disappointing people. But certainly in terms of conveying that he's paying attention, he's on the ground, he's looking at the specific facts of the investigation, I can see why he's doing it, and I hope he does a good job today calming things down.

CUOMO: So without cynicism you have to look at this more as a political situation than a practical one, and as you just said, Bob Driscoll, if Eric Holder can help heal the community, that's a benefit all and in itself. Again, Robert Driscoll, thank you very much for your perspective on this. Appreciate it.

DRISCOLL: Thank you, Chris.

CUOMO: Other news going on as well outside Ferguson, so let's get you back to Michaela for that. Michaela?

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Chris, thank you so much. Nine minutes after the hour. Really gruesome video released by ISIS in Iraq showing the beheading of kidnapped American James Foley. These are still images of his final moments. We are not going to show you the entire video. It is far too graphic. The extremists say it's retaliation for U.S. air strikes against them and they are now threatening to kill another captive American if the bombings do not stop.

In the Middle East peace talks breaking down after militants in Gaza launched rockets at Israel, breaking a temporary cease-fire Tuesday. Israel responding with deadly air strikes attacking dozens of militant sites, 14 people reportedly killed and more than 100 others wounded in the violence. The Israeli military has called up 2,000 reservists for active duty.

A defiant Texas governor Rick Perry vows to fight an abuse of power indictment, calling it a political attack. He was booked and photographed Tuesday. Prosecutors allege Perry abused his power by vetoing a state public integrity unit when the democratic D.A. running it rejected Perry's request for her resignation following a drunk- driving conviction.

Going to show you dramatic video here -- wow, look at that. In Arizona, flash flooding trapped an elderly woman in a minivan when the overflowing stream washed over the car's roof. A rescue worker was able to get through that rushing water, reaches the van, breaks through the driver's side and opens the door. With a little help he carries the elderly passenger to safety. We'll talk to our weather team, and more thunder storms and water and perhaps even some flooding could be in store.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: We see how fast that water --

PEREIRA: They had a busy day yesterday.

All right, up next on NEW DAY, the Michael Brown case could be in the hands of a grand jury as soon as today. Will Officer Darren Wilson face charges for the teenager's death? The Brown family attorney will join us.

BOLDUAN: Also looking at this, ISIS threatening to kill another American after releasing that horrific video showing the beheading of American James Foley. We're going to speak with a former CIA counterterrorism official about their threat.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: Welcome back to NEW DAY. We are live in Ferguson this morning after a night of mostly peaceful protests. However, at some point, it did turn tense once again. Police had to get aggressive. They say bottles were thrown at them. They report 47 people being arrested, some of them for threatening to kill police. Now, despite the flare- up, there was no tear gas, no smoke canisters, no shootings. That may seem like a high bar but you have take progress where you find it, Kate.

BOLDUAN: That's absolutely right, Chris. And today Attorney General Eric Holder will be arriving in Ferguson. His visit comes as a grand jury could begin to hear evidence in Michael Brown's death to decide whether Officer Darren Wilson will be facing charges.

Let's get reaction, let's discuss all the latest developments with Daryl Parks. He is an attorney for Michael Brown's family. Mr. Parks, it's good to see you again.

DARYL PARKS, BROWN FAMILY ATTORNEY: Good morning.

BOLDUAN: So Eric Holder is going to Ferguson today. I've heard maybe some differing accounts. Is the Attorney General meeting with Michael Brown's parents?

PARKS: It's not scheduled as of now.

BOLDUAN: Do they want to meet -- or are there conversations? I've heard both. Yes, he's meeting and nothing is on the schedule.

PARKS: Let me clear it up. Thursday of last week, representatives from the Civil Rights Section of the Department of Justice and the U.S. Attorney's Office of the Eastern District of Missouri met with the family. That was the first meeting. Second, late on Friday, agents interviewed the mother; that was part of the official investigation. So the whole Department of Justice investigation has been ongoing since mid-week last week, so the A.G. is coming, that's a great thing, however, but the actual work began last week.

BOLDUAN: I would imagine though that they would want to meet with the Attorney General if he was open to that meeting.

PARKS: If he needed to, yes, but, remember, the real work are the agents who are out questioning people. So when we met, there were two agents assigned to the case last week initially, and then they called in additional agents over the weekend, which we weren't aware of. And as you know, the Department of Justice does not share any detail of their investigation with us, so we're glad they are doing what they are doing. We welcome the A.G. and have great respect for him, and his presence certainly shows that President Obama and him see that this is an issue of great importance to the Michael Brown family but also to the American public. Because people are very concerned about this case.

BOLDUAN: Well, and Mr. Parks, what does the family want to hear from the Attorney General? It is very rare and very significant that, in the midst of an investigation, the Attorney General himself is going to the scene?

PARKS: Well, I think he's already started to see -- I mean, the amount of resources that the Department of Justice has devoted to this situation, along with his presence, certainly lets us know that they're taking this seriously.

Remember now, up until now, the locals that you've had leaks of information. We've had straight distrust created by various scenarios that have happened thus far since Michael's death. So for the feds to take the serious approach that they're taking is welcomed.

CUOMO: Daryl Parks, Chris Cuomo out here in Ferguson. Let me give you an opportunity to respond to a couple of points, a pushback that we've been hearing here as the case progresses.

First, what that Michael Brown past as a juvenile? There's speculation that, oh, it's inaccurate to say that there's nothing there. It's only as an adult there's nothing there. Is there any truth to that, that he had altercations or any kind of record as a juvenile?

PARKS: Let me say -- I'll say this, Chris. He was a typical kid. He may have had some situations that may have occurred as a juvenile, but, you know, we need not to be at a point where we start to blame the victim for what he did. I think this officer's background is the one in question, because his actions are the ones that took Michael Brown's life.

CUOMO: I understand you, but you know that is information that people are going to try to get. And at some point, that's going to be seen as somewhat of an analysis about how forthcoming your side is and what they say about it. But I understand your point about not blaming the victim.

And that takes us then to the account of what happened that night. Any concern on your part and the part of the family about how the friend that night, Dorian, his story may be changing a little bit. Now he's saying that he heard the officer say, "I'll shoot you." He heard the gunfire from that first shot. Story changed somewhat there. Is that a concern?

PARKS: Not a concern. One great thing in this case, Chris, is that you have numerous witnesses who witnessed this incident. And so that's one witness, and the witness testimony must be taken into totality as you would have in any case, so it's not a big concern here. We believe that given the great number of witnesses, without question this officer should be charged.

BOLDUAN: Mr. Parks, the grand jury could also take up the case today, begin hearing evidence in this case. Many people are saying this is quite fast that the grand jury could be starting to look at evidence. What are you -- what do you know about it and what do you make of it?

PARKS: Well, I think it's OK. We must remember there's some evidence in this case that's not going to change, so witnesses that they have spoken to, preliminary parts of the autopsy report, radio communication. Bullet casings were found in the case. That stuff won't change. There's a small amount of evidence that requires further additional testing that may take some time. BOLDUAN: Do you trust the county prosecutor?

PARKS: Well, I would hope that he would do his job, and I think his job and the fed's job are important. Without question, the state law allows far greater charging authority than the federal law, so we welcome both investigations.

BOLDUAN: Are you going to be watching him closely? Does the county prosecutor's background -- is it a concern for your legal team? It's been called into question.

PARKS: Well, let me say this. I mean, you would hope that there possibly would be a different prosecutor. But if that doesn't happen, I believe that this lawyer hopefully will do his job and understanding the world is watching. He has no vested interest with all the eyes watching this case to do nothing but the right thing.

CUOMO: Daryl, I think you should explain something to the audience. You haven't liked the idea of a grand jury from the beginning. To people, that's an impressive thing, ooh, grand jury, that's serious if that happens. You've been saying no, an arrest would have been serious. They didn't have to charge him. They could have had a probable cause hearing with the judge. Why would you have preferred that route? Why would you have seen that as equal justice?

PARKS: Well, I think it's the prosecutor punting on the situation. When the prosecutor in any situation can choose to do a direct file, and file a complaint and the case can move forward within the system, especially when you have a great number of witnesses who come forth thus far.

CUOMO: And you're saying because it would have been an open process, and there would be a judge involved so you'd know what evidence was presented -- grand jury sounds great but it's a private, closed proceeding and you don't know what happens.

PARKS: For sure. For sure. I mean, when they go into the grand jury room, we'll never know what was presented, what weight was given to certain evidence, how it was presented. I think, given a case like this one, given the information that we have already, it's far proper to charge and to let there be a public trial, let everyone present evidence, let the evidence be tested and confronted and move forward.

BOLDUAN: Kind of on that question, what more have you heard of Officer Wilson's account of that day?

PARKS: Well, only that the third party who came forward is all we've heard. We haven't heard anything about his background. There's plenty of information about this officer that the department could have put out there in the public that should be public about him, who he is and his history. We obviously are doing some investigation of our own to track down some of the things that we see in his past.

BOLDUAN: Is there anything that you can tell us? I mean, there's not a lot released. Everyone is looking for more information. PARKS: Well, I think there's going to be some interesting things

you're going to learn about him. I'm not going to say it right now, but we found some things thus far that will certainly draw your eye.

BOLDUAN: Into his background as a police officer?

PARKS: Into his background as a police officer, and his interaction with other people.

BOLDUAN: Daryl Parks, attorney for the Michael Brown family, thank you very much for your time. We really appreciate it.

PARKS: Thank you for having me.

BOLDUAN: Of course, of course.

All right, we're going to take a break. We'll be getting back down to Chris in Missouri in just a second, but also we're going to be focusing on this. Gruesome new video shows the execution of an American at hands of ISIS. The militant group is also threatening another American in the very same video. We're going to speak with a terror analyst about the group's ultimatum.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: Welcome back. Outrage and horror this morning after an American was beheaded by ISIS militants. The terrorists released new and very disturbing video shows James Foley's execution. We're showing you still images. We will not show the video. It's entirely too graphic and too upsetting for to you view, for us to show you. The militants blame U.S. air strikes in Iraq for his death, and now ISIS is even threatening the life of another American if those air strikes don't stop.

Want to turn to Philip Mudd, a CNN counterterrorism analyst and former CIA counterterrorism official. I have so many questions for you. You know, I think this is just so gruesome and horrifying. It hearkens back to Daniel Pearl, you know, in 2002. Extremely upsetting and disturbing.

Give us -- if we can, I know this is your -- your area, give us an idea about the mindset and psychology and the mindset, et cetera, of these guys.

PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Boy, this brings me back to what I was witnessing at the CIA back 10, 12 years ago. You mention Daniel Pearl, we saw beheadings more than a decade ago in Iraq. We saw them in Saudi Arabia.

You have to understand, when you're looking at these typically young people, that it's not just a terrorist group, it's not an Islamic extremist group; this is a cult culture. This is small cells of people who sit around among themselves. We've seen this, by the way, among youth in America with other ideologies. They sit around amongst themselves and other ideas can't penetrate of that small group. Think of them not just as ISIS; think of them as a cult. PEREIRA: You know, for some of us, it's really hard to get beyond the

grisly nature of this, but I know that you look at this in a different way. We had Errol Lewis just a moment ago on our air say that this is sort of a desperate sign of a desperate group. How do you see it? What do you see beyond just the grisly nature of it?

MUDD: No, I don't see this as a sign of a desperate group. Within these groups, you have small slivers that are on the fringes, if you will. The fringe of the Islamic State, to my mind, is larger than the fringes I've seen in other groups. This is a fairly significant segment of the Islamic State who believes that these kinds of acts will prove their credibility and will prove to be a magnet for extremists coming in from places like Europe.

PEREIRA: But will it?

MUDD: By the way, I think that's probably one reason why you have a native English speaker on the video. This is not by accident. We've got more than 1,000 Europeans going to places like Syria and Iraq to fight. This is a message to extremists in Europe that you can penetrate the core of the Islamic State even if you have a British accent.

PEREIRA: So you think that this is not just a fringe group that's going to have a hard time rallying the base of Muslim followers and believers.