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American Beheaded by ISIS; Brown Case Grand Jury; Police and Community Working Together; Interview with Kevin Ahlbrand and Antonio French

Aired August 20, 2014 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MAJ. GEN. JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: By entirely different rules, and that is there are essentially no rules. So how the United States responds, Michaela, is extremely important not just in terms of the message that is received by ISIS, but the message that is received by our friends that are in the region, those that we are trying to deal with, former folks who we probably would prefer not to deal with but might have influence within or over some leaders within ISIS and can be able to try to influence actions, not necessarily to moderate, but maybe to not behead this next American citizen, which would be a great outcome. I don't know what that outcome is going to look like. And also certainly our administration has to communicate with domestically as well as some of our international partners, other than those in the region. So it's a very delicate balance.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: You have said right here on our air that if we had acted earlier and more decisively in Syria, we wouldn't be where we are and likely the situation would be less exacerbated and aggressive. You still stand by that?

MARKS: Oh, Michaela, I think it's fair to say that. I mean it's always at this point, you know, we can look back and we can do an analysis and say what's some impossible outcomes, but we're trying to disprove a negative. We're trying to show that inactivity on the part of this administration in Syria, while it was bubbling, where we could have had some degree of a positive outcome, might put us in a different place. Our own what I would call alternative analysis would demonstrate that maybe this outcome was inevitable, irrespective of what the United States did. So we can put a whole bunch of angels and dance on the head of that pin, but I think it's important that the United States take some degree of action at this point to make sure that what ISIS is trying to achieve is not achievable from their perspective. This is nothing but ungoverned space.

PEREIRA: Right.

MARKS: And, you know, Michaela, chaos is just going to continue to grow with unlimited bounds unless you put some type of controls and you limit this ungoverned space.

PEREIRA: What kind of action do you think is appropriate?

MARKS: Well, the United States is -- right now is acting with a degree of authority, alongside both forces -- Peshmerga forces in the north in Iraq and with the ISF, the Iraqi Security Forces, in order to try to give some space and time so that those militaries, the Peshmerga and the ISF, can try to regain some momentum and they've been successful. This is, in fact, a very - a strategic outcome is that ISIS is held in place and cannot expand. That's a successful strategic outcome at this point. What we want to do, as we move down the road, is try to roll them back. That's not a possibility with our current situation right now.

PEREIRA: Something has to be done. As you said, we all take this very personally, the senseless and violent and brutal beheading of an American. Spider marks, general, thank you so much for joining us to talk about such a grim subject.

MARKS: Yes, ma'am. (INAUDIBLE).

PEREIRA: All right, we're going to take a short break here, but ahead we will have the very latest for you from Missouri, from Ferguson. Could a grand jury indict the officer who shot and killed Michael Brown? We're also going to speak with one of the officers who supports Officer Darren Wilson. Does he think Wilson would get a fair trial if it comes to that?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back. We are live in Ferguson, Missouri, this morning. Now nearly two weeks after Michael Brown's death. Right, it happened on August 9th.

There's still very little known about the man who shot and killed the unarmed teen. His name, Officer Darren Wilson. We do understand a grand jury could begin hearing evidence about a potential case against the officer today. So, what do we know? What could be in that? Who is this person? Joining us in Ferguson is Kevin Ahlbrand. Now he's the president of the Fraternal Order of Police.

So, do you know the officer that -

KEVIN W. AHLBRAND, PRESIDENT OF FRATERNAL ORDER OF POLICE: No, I do not personally know him.

CUOMO: OK. What do you know of him?

AHLBRAND: I know that he's a six-year veteran that has had no -- absolutely no discipline brought about him in his career from two different departments and that he is, from all the people I've spoken with, a very hard and diligent and fair officer.

CUOMO: Now, on one side, you have people saying, should have been arrested right away, would have given the community what they want, would have shown that there's an interest of justice here. From the police perspective, do you think an arrest was warranted?

AHLBRAND: Absolutely not. Apparently there was enough evidence that was evident right at the scene that - that perhaps this was a justifiable shooting and therefore it requires much more further investigation and interviews and gathering of evidence before a determination is made, which will be made by the grand jury, which is the proper thing to do.

CUOMO: What do you think was evident at the scene that made this suggestive of a justifiable shooting?

AHLBRAND: Well, and I'm not privy -- the only evidence I'm privy to is the evidence that has been made public and obviously the officer's statement, the locations of things obviously would have corroborated with Darren's statement or else an arrest would have been made immediately.

CUOMO: Do you think so? Do you think the police would arrest their own in a situation like this? Have you ever had that happen in Ferguson before?

AHLBRAND: Not in Ferguson, but certainly it's happened before.

CUOMO: Now, when you think about the idea of the body of Michael Brown left there four hours, OK, very inflammatory for the people in the community, seen as disrespectful, seen as maybe an intimidation tactic. Anything to that?

AHLBRAND: Well, I understand that, but the people have to also understand that the police realize that this would be a very emotional and sensitive investigation, and therefore, unfortunately, to gather all the requisite evidence that has to be done.

CUOMO: All right, let's bring in Antonio French.

It's good to have you

ANTONIO FRENCH, ALDERMAN, ST. LOUIS 21ST WARD: Thank you.

CUOMO: Introduce yourself to our audience. Who do you represent here?

FRENCH: I'm from the city of St. Louis, I'm an alderman, the 21st ward.

CUOMO: OK. Now what Kevin and I were just discussing is that the community's early reaction was, there should have been arrest. That would have shown that there's an interest in justice. Kevin says, at the scene, based on the statement and what they found there, there was no basis for arrest, so it being a police officer requires more investigation. An arrest wouldn't have been warranted. Your take?

FRENCH: Sure. I think that is a process. I think the mistake that the Ferguson Police Department though made was in the way they handled and the way they communicated. There was no communication to the community or even to the family of Michael Brown. Instead, within a few minutes we saw a line of police officers, weapons brought out, and then over the course of a couple days we saw a rapid escalation of the situation, which really created the situation we're in today.

CUOMO: So to be clear, an immediate arrest, you don't think that was required?

FRENCH: Um, I mean, all we had was witness testimony. I mean this whole process takes a little while and so the one thing we want everybody to understand is that a certain amount of patience is required, that the wheels of justice do move slowly. But we're in day 12 now and the problem I think we have now is that people expect to see something by now and they're getting frustrated.

CUOMO: So, Kevin, speak to the amount of time that this is taking and, you know, it just shows that we're having constructive dialogue that we even share a mike here as we're having it. And again, so that Antonio can hear it, four hours that body was kept out there, and I told you what that was suggested to by the community and the 12 days since, what do you make of those indications of how long things took immediately and thereafter?

AHLBRAND: Well, and I can empathize with the family and friends that have a problem with the body being out there four hours, but you only get one chance to -- on a crime scene and you have to make sure that it's right what do you. And I --

CUOMO: Could have covered the body?

AHLBRAND: And I can't speak whether the body was covered or not. I don't know that. But that -- that's done in some instances. But, like I said, there's only one chance to do that crime scene and it's got to be done right. And however long it takes, that's however long it has to take.

CUOMO: And the 12 days?

AHLBRAND: Well, like the alderman said, the wheels of justice turn slowly. Hey, we're all for a very vigorous investigation in this, and if that's how long it takes to gather interviews, look at the evidence and present it to the grand jury, then that's how long it takes.

CUOMO: Back to you, Antonio. Do you think that that's what we're seeing, the slow wheels of justice -- no question they move slowly here, everywhere else -- or do you see that they're just not turning?

FRENCH: Well, I think they are moving very slowly right now. I also think they, at times, have hit some bumps that weren't necessary. I think there were a lot of missteps done on the local level by the Ferguson Police Department. I think even the county prosecutor made some inflammatory comments throughout the week.

And to Kevin's point about how these investigations are conducted, we had a situation in St. Louis City yesterday, and I think both the police department and local officials showed how it should be done. There was immediate communication with the public. They make special efforts not to leave the body out there for a long time. And especially as crowds start to form and you know the situation is getting tense, you shouldn't take an adversarial approach. You should be more -- even more communicative to your people and get out there and that's what our chief did yesterday, he actually went into the crowd and talked to people to tell them what was happening, and that made a huge difference.

CUOMO: Proof, Kevin, that there is a learning curve involved here at least in terms of the relations between police and the community involved.

AHLBRAND: Oh, absolutely. There's no question about that, that there's a learning curve. And, hey, you know what, mistakes were made and unfortunately that's what happens. We've never seen anything like this in St. Louis or the region or Missouri or I don't know if across the country. And certainly mistakes have been made. But after this is all over, we need to all sit down together and figure out what was done wrong and what was done right.

CUOMO: Now, let me ask you something about the investigation, OK, because one of the reasons we need to create calm here as quickly as possible so there can be more energy and focus on the actual facts and circumstances surrounding what actually happened, because this is all a distraction from that. The officer's past. Early on Kevin said, Antonio, his past is clean. He's never been cited for anything like this. He hasn't been violated as an officer for doing something aggressive with anyone else, correct?

AHLBRAND: That's correct.

CUOMO: All right. Is his past relevant in assessing what he did on this day, August 9th, with Michael Brown?

AHLBRAND: Yes and no. That's hard to say. No one but the people that were actually there knew exactly what happened. So mind-set is a big thing for both parties involved. And, unfortunately, we don't know what that mind-set is.

CUOMO: Do you believe that the mind-set of the officer and the mind- set of Michael Brown is relevant?

AHLBRAND: Certainly that's relevant.

CUOMO: It's a quicker answer on Michael Brown.

Antonio, let me ask you the same thing. The mind-set of the officer, what he's done in the past, what kind of person he is, when you're judging competing stories, isn't that relevant? It would certainly be admissible at trial?

FRENCH: Of course it's relevant. And one of the reasons that tensioned flared up again this week is because the local police department felt it was necessary to release unrelated information on what they saw as the character of Michael Brown without --

CUOMO: Why is that unrelated whereas the past of the officer is related?

FRENCH: Because the video evidence that they released, they released it in a manner in such a way that it insinuated that he was pulled over at the time related to that.

CUOMO: So how they did it and how they made it relevant is the problem.

FRENCH: Right. CUOMO: But the fact that, if it's true, that Michael Brown was

involved in a robbery, relevant?

FRENCH: No. No. Relevant to him being unarmed and killed by a police officer because he shoplifted? No, I don't think so.

CUOMO: Relevant to how he may address an officer, how he may deal with confrontation or violence, relevant?

FRENCH: No, not relevant. I would call if more prejudicial actually. But I think the mistake here is how the police department has released information, not doing it quickly, waiting so long even to release the officer's name, and now we only have secondhand accounts of the man's character and record. I think this is stuff that needs to come out quickly so we can avoid this escalation.

CUOMO: Michael Brown, no record, relevant?

FRENCH: Yes. This was not a criminal. This was not somebody who had a criminal record.

CUOMO: The attorney for the family on the show this morning, when I say did he have a juvenile record, remember, Michael Brown only 18. In Missouri, criminal record starts at 17, he says whatever it was isn't relevant. But is it relevant? If he had a juvenile record, first of all, is no record, is that accurate, and is it relevant?

FRENCH: I think the central point in this case is that you have somebody who is unarmed, lethal force used, and an investigation has to be determined to see if it was warranted. And it doesn't matter if somebody was innocent with a pure record, or if somebody was a hardened criminal. They still have rights as well.

CUOMO: Alright now, the three aspects here that are very important moving forward, and I think people will be surprised to hear that you two will agree on some things that you don't usually hear agreement on here. What's actually going on, on the street here? Who is causing the trouble where it actually has been cited? You two are actually, I believe, going to agree on what this cause is and it's going to be surprising to many people. But, I want to take a break right now. The conversation is important enough to continue, agreed?

FRENCH: Yes.

CUOMO: So we'll come back after the break. We're going to have more here on NEW DAY about what is seen from the community's perspective and the police perspective on what should control this investigation, who should control it, and who's been causing the trouble here in Ferguson? You'll want to hear the answers. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: Alright, we're back in Ferguson this morning with a rare opportunity. We have Antonio French, he's an alderman for the 21st ward here in Missouri and we have Kevin Ahlbrand, he is the president of the Missouri Fraternal Order of Police. So, we've been talking about where you two disagree on the situation in terms of the nature of the investigation, what is relevant, what isn't and why this is happening. One other point that needs to be assessed, and then I want to turn to some things that I think you guys share. The first is McCulloch, the prosecutor. Do you believe he should recuse himself or do you believe he should continue with the prosecution?

FRENCH: I believe he should recuse himself, or I believe the governor should come in and put in a special prosecutor.

CUOMO: The governor said that he will not ask him to recuse himself.

FRENCH: I heard that. I would invite him to reconsider. The central thing behind all of this, whether you're talking about local police department or the county prosecutor, there's been a lack of faith between the community and whether justice is going to be done. We have to restore that faith and so not a lot of people have a lot of faith in the county prosecutor right now.

CUOMO: Does it put some stink on the police if it's McCulloch, because he's seen as having such close ties to the department? Might it be better for the department as well if it were someone else, or no?

AHLBRAND: Well, I don't think so. I think Bob McCulloch has a proven track record of fair and impartial prosecution.

CUOMO: Now last night, we all know what happened, and what did not happen. Truth of the situation, is it getting better?

FRENCH: I think we saw improvement last night. I mean, it was mostly peaceful. We didn't have to tear gas citizens. The police have taken a different approach, which is to kind of come in and try to extract those few individuals that are causing trouble and not punishing the whole crowd because the vast majority of people out there are there for peaceful protest.

CUOMO: With the help of local leaders who are coming forward, talking with police and identifying people who need to be removed, so as to not disturb what is seen as a peaceful process. Is that the truth?

AHLBRAND: That's correct, and the outside agitators are the problem. The peaceful protesters from Ferguson and from the immediate area are not a problem.

CUOMO: So that is the second point of agreement. Many people who are hearing this story here say no outside agitators. That's just the locals trying to excuse themselves from bad behavior, but you, as a representative of the police, you say no, it's not the locals here. There is an outside element that is agitating.

AHLBRAND: That's a very true fact, and we have people here from New York to California to Chicago, that have been arrested that are the agitators.

CUOMO: Underreported that there has been cooperation between the police and those who are peace marchers and protesters, demonstrators, whatever you want to call them, underreported, true?

FRENCH: Yes, I think the situation has changed a lot over the course of 12 days. In the beginning, especially when the local police were in charge and in command, it was just an escalation and the police department was almost at war with its citizens. Now that the governor stepped in and put command under state control, we have some more professional folks here and a lot of us are trying to work together because we know when this thing is all over, we have to live together. We're all part of the same community and communities do need police, and we have a lot of wounds to heal from these 12 days.

CUOMO: AG Holder coming here today. Unusual, seen as important. You believe it's a good step?

FRENCH: It is a good step. As I said, there's so little faith in local department and the county prosecutor that it's good to see that the federal government is stepping in and can take an independent look at it all.

CUOMO: Whether or not it leads to something as a prosecution, unlikely but symbolically certainly strong. And you agree, you think a full and thorough investigation is welcomed by the police?

AHLBRAND: We welcome a thorough investigation by anybody to come in. That's the right thing to do and we welcome that.

CUOMO: And you have confidence in what you understand in the situation that it will only serve to vindicate the officer?

AHLBRAND: Once again, I have limited knowledge of the evidence.

CUOMO: You're worried about overextending yourself in the interest of the brotherhood?

AHLBRAND: No, no, absolutely not. I'm just saying I don't have enough of my own personal knowledge of the evidence to make a conclusion, and that's what we're trying to do is to try to get everybody to wait to make a conclusion until all of the facts are presented.

CUOMO: What happens in this community if there are no charges filed against the officer involved?

FRENCH: I worry. I mean, we're going to have our work cut out for us to try to keep the peace.

CUOMO: You worried about that as well?

AHLBRAND: Well, certainly. I think the time is now for us to get together and really work hard on this.

CUOMO: Look, I think that for the audience, people have been following this story to see you, Kevin and Antonio, you've been set up as opposites. Not personally, but in terms of who you represent. It's about the police versus the locals. To see you guys agreeing on things and that there's progress here on the ground that involves cooperation, I think is going to surprise a lot of people. Let's see what happens when the attorney general comes today, let's see what happens tonight. Kevin Ahlbrand, Antonio French thank you very much for joining us on NEW DAY.

AHLBRAND: Thank you.

CUOMO: We're going to take a break right now. When we come back, we will have more on the investigation. As things quiet down, there could be more focus on that, especially with Attorney General Eric Holder expected here today. What can he really do? how will he affect the dynamic here, and will there be an eventual prosecution on the federal level of a civil rights crime? We'll discuss.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: There will be a lot going on in Ferguson today, and CNN will be reporting throughout the morning, the day and the night on it. Kate, Mickey, back to you in New York.

KATE BOLDUA, CNN ANCHORN: That's absolutely right, Chris. Chris will be on the ground for us, but time now for "NEWSROOM" with Carol Costello. Hi, Carol.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, Kate. Hi, Chris. Thanks so much. Have a great day. NEWSROOM starts now.

And good morning, I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me. We're following two major stories unfolding this hour, both in middle America and the Mid East. First, a savage message to America.