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Obama Authorizes Surveillance Over Syria; Alleged New Audio of Michael Brown Shooting; Interview with Congressman Steve Cohen of Tennessee

Aired August 26, 2014 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. reconnaissance flights could begin other Syria at any time according to U.S. officials, using possibly drones, U2 spy planes or F-18s.

The Pentagon is drafting options to strike inside Syria, but the U.S. won't warn the Syrian government who says carrying out airstrikes without their consent would be a breach of its sovereignty and an act of aggression.

It's unclear, however, how much the president's top military adviser, General Martin Dempsey, supports immediate U.S. military action.

A spokesman confirmed Dempsey is preparing options to address ISIS both in Iraq and Syria, with a variety of military tools, including airstrikes.

But the lack of action so far is prompting critics, like hawkish Republican Senator Lindsey Graham to charge the White House is trying to minimize the threat we face in order to justify not changing a failed strategy.

Before any bombs could fall, the U.S. has to get fresh intelligence.

REAR ADM. JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: We don't talk about reconnaissance and intelligence matters but in general when you are thinking about conducting operations like that, you certainly want to get as much of a view on the ground as you can.

PETER THEO CURTIS, JOURNALIST: My name is Peter Theo Curtis. I'm a journalist from the city of Boston, Massachusetts.

STARR: The debate comes as American Peter Theo Curtis held hostage by the Islamic militant group al Nusra for nearly two years in Syria gets his first taste of freedom.

NANCY CURTIS, MOTHER OF THEO CURTIS: He was over the top excited, I think obviously he's, he has to decompress. He's been through so much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

STARR: A senior U.S. official told me a short time ago if airstrikes are approved by President Obama, the goal will be to disrupt ISIS, to keep them from moving their fighters, their equipment, their weapons around, especially across that border between Syria and Iraq -- John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: It's the first stage. What's next is key.

All right. Barbara Starr at the Pentagon -- thanks so much.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Now a CNN exclusive, in the investigation into the shooting of Michael Brown. We are about to play you new audio which could be from the very moment police shot Brown in Ferguson, Missouri. This was recorded inadvertently by a man who lives near the scene during a video chat that he was having. CNN has not been able to independently verify this recording.

CNN's Stephanie Elam is in Ferguson with the very latest.

Tell us more, Stephanie.

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alisyn, what you're about to hear may be disturbing for some but try to listen past the man speaking and take a listen to what you hear behind him.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELAM (voice-over): Listen closely.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are pretty.

(GUNFIRE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're so fine. Just going over some of your videos. How could I forget?

(GUNFIRE)

ELAM: This audio obtained exclusively by CNN allegedly the gunshots fired during the shooting death of 18-year-old Michael Brown. A lawyer for a Ferguson resident says her client recorded this audio while video chatting with a friend when the unarmed teen was shot by Ferguson police. His lawyer says he was questioned by the FBI about the audio.

Listen again as you hear a series of gunshots fired, then a brief pause, followed by another round of shots.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are pretty.

(GUNFIRE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're so fine. Just going over some of your videos. How could I forget?

(GUNFIRE)

LOPA BLUMENTHAL, ATTORNEY: It's not just the number of gunshots, it's how they're fired and that has a huge relevance on how this case might finally end up.

ELAM: CNN cannot independently verify the authenticity of the tape and has reached out to the FBI for confirmation.

Facing the possibility of charges from the shooting, 28-year-old Officer Darren Wilson, the grand jury not expected to return a decision until mid-October.

Heavy police presence, protests and violence on Ferguson's streets thrust the small community into the national spotlight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today is for peace, peace and quiet.

ELAM: Inside the Friendly Temple Missionary Baptist Church Monday, a somber home going to lay Michael Brown to rest.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we call him the gentle giant. We call him Big Mike. We call him Mike Mike. He said, "One day, the whole world will know my name."

ELAM: Standing before her son's photos and his casket, his mother Lesley McSpadden grieving, wiping away tears. Among the thousands gathered inside were friends and family and many who came to pay their respects to the slain teen, having never known Big Mike personally.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're still not defeated.

ELAM: Including well-known public figures like the Reverend Jesse Jackson and Spike Lee, who tweeted during the service, "Our brother Mike Brown St. Louis Cardinals hat lays upon his casket here at the home going."

On this day, protesters stayed silent, but mourners were reminded of the need for change.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael Brown's blood is crying from the ground, crying for vengeance, crying for justice.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ELAM: And if the FBI does find that that record something authentic, what may play into the investigation is that pause between those two groups of shots. What people want to know is what exactly was happening during that time, Alisyn.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Stephanie Elam, thanks for all of that.

We're going to talk about it now. Let's bring in criminal defense attorney and HLN analyst Joey Jackson and Paul Ginsberg, an audio expert who has examined the new recording for us.

Gentlemen, let's play the audio one more time -- and, Paul, I'll get your analysis.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are pretty.

(GUNFIRE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're so fine. Just going over some of your videos. How could I forget?

(GUNFIRE)

(END AUDIO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: All right. Paul, what do you hear in the background of that video chat with that man?

PAUL GINSBERG, FORENSIC AUDIO EXPERT: OK, I was up pretty early this morning going over this, a number of times, in both real time and slow speed to precisely measure what we have. Essentially, there are six gunshots. There is a pause that I measure at 3.02 seconds, followed by four more shots.

CAMEROTA: OK.

GINSBERG: Same type of weapon, and about the same distance.

CAMEROTA: OK, six shots, a three-second pause, four shots. That's different than what we had heard before.

GINSBERG: Correct.

CAMEROTA: Joey, we had heard that Michael Brown had been shot six times but also heard from witnesses that there were stray gunfire found in homes along that street. So, that's fitting.

How do you think this changes the investigation?

JOEY JACKSON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY/HLN ANALYST: Big development, Alisyn, and here's why. What happens is the officer's, whether or not he's criminally culpable will turn on two things, did he act reasonably and did he act in a necessary way.

So, you examine that and then you look and examine the shots.

Now, when you look at them, you're going to have to determine, A, what was the threat that was being posed to him at the time those shots were fired? B, what was the immediacy of that threat? And, C, was the force used proportionate to any threat?

And so, the big question becomes for the grand jurors as they analyze this, what he did, examine exactly what the officer did, were those shots excessive and if the answer is yes, then it becomes problematic for the defense.

CAMEROTA: OK. But can this be fitting with what we heard from Officer Wilson's side which is that Mike Brown turned towards him and the officer perceived him to be charging towards him. Could that account for the three-second pause and more shots?

JACKSON: It could, Alisyn. And again, it all turns, There will be a variety of evidence presented and sometimes evidence is conflicting and ultimately ballistic evidence would identify the number of shots but audio is important because it helps the jurors grip it, it helps them understand it, it helps them internalize it.

And so, it could explain based upon the pause that he was charging, Michael Brown, towards him or it could not explain that and show the force was excessive, that depends upon all the evidence as presented.

CAMEROTA: Paul, you have analyzed scores of gunshots, including those from crime scenes. I should let our viewers know you were involved with the Newtown massacre, analyzing some of those gunshots. How instrumental do you think this audio will be in the investigation?

GINSBERG: Well, I agree that it can become a very crucial piece of evidence especially relating to credibility of the officer and other witnesses, so we'll have to see how it turns out. Right now, there are six shots, three seconds, and another four shots.

CAMEROTA: Joey, what do you think it changes?

JACKSON: Well, it changes the equation in terms of the excessiveness of the force or the appropriateness of the force. So, as you look at it, different witness will say things differently and perceive things differently. But what is a fact will be the amount of shots you hear on the audio and that's why you have people who forensically could determine how many there are.

But, ultimately, when you examine the officer's conduct, the questions the grand jurors are going to ask is, did what the officer did, was it absolutely necessary in order to end the threat that Michael Brown posed if he posed a threat at the time? And so, when they examined that, based upon the amount of the shots, will it be viewed as excessive or will it be viewed as necessary? And that's the critical question.

CAMEROTA: Paul, you were saying there's another level of examination I don't know what we're hearing in the tape and beyond what you've done this morning on your graph that we've put up, there is another level that investigators can go to determine more.

GINSBERG: Yes. Of course what they can do is try to recreate this type of recording by putting an iPad or a recorder at the location where this was made, and then having people go to the actual site of the shooting and fire six times, pause, fire another four shots, and then we can overlay the different wave forms and see whether, in fact, they agree.

JACKSON: Alisyn, critical to the case will be the officer's state of mind at the time he was firing the shots, what was he perceiving? Was he perceiving a threat? Was this overkill? Or was it something that he needed to do to preserve his life?

CAMEROTA: But he was going to say that he was perceiving a threat, and it sounds like if you're firing off that many shots in that rapid- fire succession that he felt, you can deduce afraid for his life.

JACKSON: Sure, could you say anything, Alisyn. The issue is whether it jives with the other evidence and so that may be true that he was fearing for his life. However, it depends on what the other witnesses say. Was he fearing at the time the hands were up or was he fearing because he was being bum-rushed as has been suggested? And that will be seen as the investigation unfolds.

CAMEROTA: All right. Fascinating, new developments.

Joey Jackson, thanks so much. Paul Ginsberg, we appreciate it. Thank you.

All right. We want to you weigh in on your thoughts on this new development, so you can join Chris Cuomo at 11:00 a.m. Eastern on our Facebook page for a chat about what happens next, as you know, chris has been covering this from the beginning. It's Facebook.com/NewDay and you can also tweet all of us, find me @alisyncamerota.

Let's go over to Michaela now for a look at your headlines.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Thanks so much, Alisyn.

Eleven minutes past the hour.

Here are your headlines:

In the Middle East, Palestinian officials say new Israeli airstrikes destroyed one of Gaza's tallest office and apartment buildings. Israel says the building was a Hamas command center. Palestinian officials say nine people were killed. Also overnight, rockets from Gaza hit a home in Israel. The family had escaped though, when warning sirens went off. All of this while Egypt is reportedly trying to revive cease-fire talks that continue.

Ukraine says it has captured 10 Russian soldiers who crossed the border into the Donetsk region. Russian media says the soldiers likely crossed over by mistake, this as Ukraine now says a Russian helicopter opened fire on a border post Monday, killing four Ukrainian soldiers. Russia, for its part, has denied involvement.

Today, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko is expected to meet with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Belarus. The two leaders are attending a trade summit. They will also meet to discuss the ongoing crisis in Ukraine.

Breaking in just the last few minutes, Burger King and coffee and donut chain Tim Horton's officially announced their merger. The company will be based in Canada and will have 18,000 locations worldwide. Basing the chain in Canada will help the company lower its tax bill -- a move lawmakers and the White House called unpatriotic. Timmy's, as it's lovingly known in Canada, enjoys a bit of a cult like status there.

BERMAN: Much like you.

PEREIRA: Pretty much like that. They don't call me Timmy though.

Take a look at video when you thought it was safe to go back in the water in Duxbury, Massachusetts. Well, check that out -- state police helicopters spotted a great white shark prowling just outside the swimming area.

CAMEROTA: He looks fine.

PEREIRA: About 1,000 beach-goers were evacuated while the 14-foot shark was in the area. After about two hours -- that's great video, by the way, these swimmers were let back in the water at their own risk and advised not to go more than waist deep.

CAMEROTA: That's troubling when you get that advisory.

BERMAN: Just on the cape, that's not OK.

CAMEROTA: They were there first. They live there in the ocean.

PEREIRA: In the water. We're not water dwellers, they are.

BERMAN: Stay away from my beach.

PEREIRA: He takes it personally.

CAMEROTA: I can see that. He's not even dignifying with a response.

BERMAN: No, I'm scared of sharks. I find things that can eat me scary.

PEREIRA: Agree.

CAMEROTA: Fair enough.

All right. Meanwhile, next on NEW DAY, more American surveillance is coming to Syria, so are airstrikes against ISIS there a guarantee? Or is the U.S. just gathering intelligence? We'll speak with the Democratic congressman right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: Welcome back to NEW DAY, everyone.

The United States now one step closer to taking military action against ISIS in Syria. President Obama has authorized air surveillance over Syria, and while that country says it will accept U.S. help fighting Islamic terrorists, Syria's warning the United States against taking unilateral action inside Syrian territory.

We want to discuss this and some other issues and some other issues now with Congressman Steven Cohen, a Democrat from Tennessee.

Thanks so much for being with us here.

REP. STEVE COHEN (D), TENNESSEE: Nice to be here.

BERMAN: Let's talk about Syria first. The United States conducting surveillance flights over Syria, airstrikes could possibly follow. Would you support airstrikes against ISIS now? COHEN: I think ISIS is a definite problem for the world. They are,

desirous of setting up a caliphate dangerous to our security and free- thinking people everywhere so I think it's important that we take action. And I think that the Defense Department and the president can come up with a strategy harmful to ISIS and yet not necessarily favorable toward Assad

BERMAN: Something like air strikes.

COHEN: Exactly and I think we'll see them.

BERMAN: And, quickly, you recall last year the United States was considering bombing the Syrian regime going after Assad himself. You thought it needed congressional approval. Do you think any action against ISIS requires congressional approval?

COHEN: I think it's different. I mean, ISIS does claim to be a state. Syria is a state. ISIS claims to be one. I support the president's action and I see no reason to come to Congress because if he does it will become a circus.

Congress is dysfunctional and no matter what the president does, the Republicans will oppose it and find reason to find fault. There's no reason to do that.

This is the real world. I think about the evils that are in the present and the threats to our security, the problems in Ukraine, the problems with Iran and nuclear armaments, the problems in the Middle East, with he need to act and act with, support our president.

BERMAN: Interesting. Democrats also say it should get congressional as well, Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia is calling for a congressional vote on the subject.

COHEN: There are some that will call for it and I understand. But I support the president and I think we need to take action, and I think Congress has become dysfunctional.

BERMAN: All right. I want to move on now to Ferguson, the shooting there, Michael Brown, 18 years old, his homegoing ceremony was yesterday. It was a moving ceremony, many people watched.

I know this is an issue you've been think being a great deal over the last several weeks. I want to bring you up to speed on the latest news reporting at CNN. CNN has obtained alleged audio of what could be the moments that Michael Brown was shot. We haven't been able to verify the authenticity of it, but it is very interesting.

I want to you take a quick listen.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are pretty.

(GUNFIRE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're so fine. Just going over some of your videos. How could I forget?

(GUNFIRE)

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BERMAN: Now, you heard a man talking there, this is being recorded during some kind of video chat, but what you did hear in the background according to audio analysts, 10 shots fired, could have been by the police officer, if this is an authentic tape.

We heard before that Michael Brown was hit six times.

COHEN: Well, the officer potentially could have missed, but the issue isn't really of that authenticity of the audio, it's the fact African- Americans are shot with police not resulting to deadly force as a last means after exhausting all reasonable means of apprehension.

I started my career as a police legal adviser, worked on police shootings. There are too many police shootings in this country. Police have a tough job and I support the police, and we need to have civil order. But there are too many killings and this was a situation where a man was unarmed, he could have been tasered, he could have been shot in the leg.

I know we all say you shoot in the middle of the cavity because it's the best target, it's the best if you're apprehending a felon, and there's a need to apprehend him because there could be a risk to somebody else down the line. But with Michael Brown, there was no risk to anybody. You could have plastered his calves and then stopped.

BERMAN: You know, you brought up an interesting term -- exhausting all reasonable means. You have a lot of experience, you say you thought about this for years and years. You know, what does that mean at a national level? How do you get that discussion going?

COHEN: Well, the Congressional Black Caucus, Elijah Cummings, congressman from Maryland, has suggested a police czar, somebody to give direction to the police departments that get federal funding. There's a lot of federal funding in police departments, there should be better direction and better carrying out of the use of the federal funds and I think that's a possibility.

BERMAN: The police czar sounds like, federal central control at some level over local police forces, which traditionally have been --

COHEN: It's not going to happen. The reality is the Republicans would never put it to a vote. But there needs to be more ties to grants and other grants to see they're used for the proper purposes.

The military equipment that's gone out is improper. I think some of the times I think policemen probably just like to shoot the M-17s for sport. I mean, policemen, they've got a tough job, I support police.

But at the same time they like guns. A lot of people in America like guns. BERMAN: You're suggesting the police just fire the guns at people for

--

COHEN: No, not at people, just recreational stuff. The M-17s have hardly ever been used by a police department in this country. They were used as a standup tool to intimidate people in Ferguson, but that's the only time I've seen them. I don't think they're actually used. I think people get them, and then they go out and they use them for sport.

BERMAN: The president called for review of a lot of the military equipment purchased or given to local police forces around the country. You want congressional hearings on this subject and others. What do you think the focus should be?

COHEN: Well, the focus should be the necessity of it. I can see a possibility in some community where you have a terror situation. You could have an Oklahoma City, and there could be a standoff and a situation police need some type of special equipment.

Generally, in that situation, you're going to have the National Guard called out and take action, but there should be limitations on what any of that equipment could be used for, and there should be some certifiable need for the equipment in the community. One of my smaller communities, 15 M-17s, it's absurd.

BERMAN: Can I ask you? What do you think would be the one thing that could be done by Congress, by you, maybe that, would keep us from having this conversation one year from now, where you would see another black kid shot at?

COHEN: Well, I tried to do something about it in 2008. I introduced and passed a resolution for the United States apologizing for slavery and Jim Crow. It did not pass the Senate in the same form because Sam Brownback put language in unnecessary about reparations because it never dealt with that.

I wanted to get a discussion of race in this country started, the president talked about it and also in 2008 in Philadelphia. That discussion needs to have taken place. It's a shame it hasn't. It still needs to take place and we need to have a major discussion on it and we need to take action.

There is a real problem in America with differences in opinions and opportunities for people based on race, and African-Americans have been redlined on capital, red lined where they live, redlined on opportunity over the years, and there needs to be an effort to bring these people forward.

We do a lot of things for people in foreign nations. We don't do enough for our own.

BERMAN: You're not saying an apology about Jim Crow would change policing, you're saying it would be the background to perhaps changing -- COHEN: Indeed, and problem of policing, it's part of the problem

coming through the years. I mean, it's been an institutional problem, 246 years of slavery, nearly 100 years of Jim Crow and after Jim Crow, it's been a slow, slow, slow slog, and we need more promise zone grants, we need more commutations from the president, I encourage him to do, because we're warehousing people in prison as part of the drug war.

The drug war is all basically a race-based, starting with Hispanics in the '30s with Harry Anslinger and with Nixon, went to African- Americans.

There's a lot of problems based on race in this country and a lot of expense and a lot of libertarians get behind the argument as well.

BERMAN: You wring up a lot of very, very big issues that certainly are a subject for discussion right now and need discussion going forward.

Congressman Steve Cohen --

COHEN: Thank you.

And I want to mention something I'm in this chair -- the last time I was in this chair was with Andrew Cuomo, and I want to say that I think Cuomo and Jackie Rose who handled the situation I was in a year ago, deserve an Emmy.

BERMAN: Chris Cuomo.

COHEN: Chris Cuomo, I'm sorry.

They deserve an Emmy. And I award them an Emmy today. They acted professionally and responsibly.

BERMAN: We're big fans of those as well.

Congressman, great to have you with us. I really appreciate.

COHEN: Thank you.

BERMAN: Next up for us on NEW DAY: a hurricane has formed in the Atlantic, that's right, a hurricane. Cristobal is set to churn north. Will it hit the United States? We're tracking this storm. We'll tell you where it's headed right after the break.

Plus, TV's biggest night delivers surprises. Many memorable moments and a lot of laughs. Congressman Steven Cohen a big fan of "Seinfeld", loving this moment. We'll talk more about it coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: Here we go with the five things you need to know for your NEW DAY.

At number one, President Obama has authorized reconnaissance flights over Syria. This move is seen as a possible precursor to air strikes against ISIS in the war-ravaged nation.

Exclusive new audio to CNN said to be from the very moment police shot and killed unarmed teenager Michael Brown. In it, you hear apparent gunfire, a pause, then more shots.