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New Day

New Witnesses Say Michael Brown's "Hands Were Up", McCain and Carney Debate on Middle East; Pistorius Found Not Guilty of Murder

Aired September 11, 2014 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Police in Missouri arresting dozens of protesters and thwarting a planned highway shutdown in response to the shooting of an unarmed teenager Michael Brown.

Also new this morning, exclusive compelling video and new witnesses to the shooting are coming forward. This cell phone video shows how two contractors reacted just moments after that gunfire ended. What did they see?

Our Randy Kaye tracked them down.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RANDY KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Just after 12:00 noon, Ferguson, Missouri, the men you see in this exclusive cell phone video hear gunshots. They are about 50 feet away from Michael Brown and Officer Darren Wilson.

The unidentified person recording this video captured the witness's reaction during the final moments of the shooting.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had his (EXPLETIVE DELETED) hands up!

KAYE: Both men were contractors working in the area. They did not want to be identified.

The man on the left pink shirt told CNN they heard one gunshot. Then about 30 seconds later, a second shot. He says he saw Michael Brown staggering. Then, he says, Brown put his hands up and said, OK, OK, OK. The witness told us the cop didn't say get on the ground, he just kept shooting.

That same witness described the gruesome scene saying he saw Michael Brown's brains come out of his head, again reiterating his hands were up.

Watch how he motions on the video.

The video these witnesses say was taken shortly after the shooting ended. If you look closely, you can see a police officer in the distance beginning to put up crime scene tape. Both men told us by the time it was over, there were three officers on the scene. But only one involved in the shooting. Another voice is also heard on the tape. The contractor in the green

shirt told me, that voice belongs to a man he didn't know, who pulled up alongside them, yelling this --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was no (EXPLETIVE DELETED) threat at all!

KAYE (on camera): That same contractor in green also told me that he saw Michael Brown running away from the police car. He said Brown put his hands up and that the officer was chasing him. He also said that officer Wilson fired another shot at Brown while his back was turned.

(voice-over): The contractor in the pink shirt also shared this -- that a second officer who arrived later to the scene also drew his weapon. He said the one cop was the one who shot him. Then, I saw the other officer pull a gun out. But he didn't shoot.

That same worker described how Brown staggered dead after the second shot 20 to 25 feet to the ground, explaining, "He was like a walking dead guy."

Randy Kaye, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PEREIRA: A great and difficult reporting for Randy Kaye. Thanks so much for that.

Let's break it down with CNN legal analyst Paul Callan. He's here with me. Mo Ivory, an attorney and radio host.

Good morning to you both.

Mo, I'll start with you -- this video compelling, describing these witnesses, describing Michael Brown as having his hands in the air. Is this damning for Officer Wilson's case?

MO IVORY, ATTORNEY: Oh, absolutely. I mean, Michaela, what we're seeing is such consistency in the statements of the eye witnesses. You know, we yet, of course, still do not know or have heard from Officer Wilson, but we have such consistent statements, one after the other, continues to say that Michael Brown was turned and the officer shot at him.

The forensics show there could have been a shot from behind. That he then turned around and said -- had his hands up and spoke something. Now, we hear the OK, OK, maybe it was that.

What we know for sure is that it's consistent, his hands were up. So what is the reason why Officer Darren Wilson has not been arrested as of yet?

PEREIRA: There's one area where there is a bit of an inconsistency. I'll talk about that in a second.

But, Paul, what struck me is that this is a real-time account of what they're seeing and their reaction to it. We hear the witnesses say he had his beeping hands up. We see him sort of mimicking how he had -- Brown had his hands up.

Another witness is heard saying, he was no bleeping threat at all. We see police putting -- I mean, there's just more and more. It's really compelling, this real-time testimony, if you will.

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, this is very, very compelling testimony. And it's extremely damaging to the police officer's case. Now, to play the devil's advocate --

PEREIRA: OK, go ahead, yes.

CALLAN: -- and just tell you how I think defense attorneys will try to deal with the situation. Well, they're going to say number one, we don't know -- the account is inaccurate because they're only talking about two gunshots that they actually heard. Wouldn't any have heard six gunshots? Doesn't that suggest an inaccuracy in their statement?

And the idea that he, when they see Michael Brown, he has his hands up. That's consistent with what we think is the officer's testimony. That Michael Brown turned and started to charge the officer, maybe with his hands up to tackle him.

So, what might look like a surrender gesture from one angle is an attack gesture from another. Now, I'm not --

PEREIRA: You're playing devil's advocate.

CALLAN: I'm playing devil's advocate. We only know this on the basis of one phone call that was made by an alleged friend of the officer. But I know how things play out in the courtrooms and it's quite possible that that will be the approach --

PEREIRA: And you mention the fact, and, Mo, I want you to address this, too, they -- these two contractors talk about the fact that they hear one shot and 30 seconds later, they hear a second shot. They don't mention any other shots at all. That is not consistent with the other testimony we've heard.

IVORY: Well, you're right and you've heard -- we've heard them say there were several shots after that. But I don't necessarily think that's inconsistent. I mean, people like depending on what was happening right where they were at 50 feet, the noise level, you know people come into a scene at all different times.

So, the facts are that they saw Michael Brown's hands up in the air. However many shots came after that, we know there were two shots to the head. I think that that is definitely something that the defense is going to say is inconsistent. But that's not going to be crucial to the point of whether there was excessive force used.

There only needs to be one shot that was fatal that killed him for the excessive force to have happened. So, I mean, I understand the idea that the defense attorneys are going to try to break it all down. But I don't think that that's going to have as much impact as seven, eight, nine, 10 people saying the same thing, that Michael Brown had his hands up. CALLAN: And I agree. And, Mo, I want to add one other thing that I

think is very important about this and I hate to throw the racial angle into it. But these appear to be white witnesses.

PEREIRA: How significant is that?

CALLAN: I think it's very significant, because the defense will try to play this up as -- you know, this is a black-on-white case and the black witnesses are siding with Michael Brown. But now you have white contractors who apparently just happened to be in the area.

PEREIRA: Well, let's bring that up.

CALLAN: They're going to be portrayed as more independent witnesses. This is a very big --

IVORY: Michaela --

PEREIRA: They're working from outside the area. They were contractors in the area. They didn't have a connection to the family, to the area. They just were there.

IVORY: Right, they don't know the Brown family. They don't know the Wilson family.

I know that people who defend Darren Wilson are really dismayed that this white corroboration came forward last night. But this really does change for all the people that continue to try to make this about you know black people saying that, you know, that he was a thug and all this. This corroboration, I said it last night, white corroboration almost makes this real now. And what I want is, yes, it's a game-changer and arrest Darren Wilson.

PEREIRA: A game-changer for you, Paul Callan? Final thought and we have to move on.

CALLAN: Not at all and I disagree completely. Wait until all the evidence is in before we make up our mind about arrests in a murder case.

IVORY: I'm not talking about an investigation and the grand jury. I'm talking about probable cause to arrest, which is completely different. Peaceful protesters have spent more time in jail than the person who caused the killing.

CALLAN: Police officers don't, you don't generally arrest in this situation.

PEREIRA: We're going to have to end there. We have to end it there. We have a lot of news we have to get to today.

Mo Ivory, Paul Callan, as always, a lot of passion on the topic. We appreciate it. Thanks for bringing in your voices.

CALLAN: Thank you.

PEREIRA: Chris?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: We have breaking news in another case that inspired a lot of passion.

The South African judge in the Oscar Pistorius case says the blade runner cannot be found guilty of murder. She says the state failed to prove premeditated murder. The judge is still summarizing testimony and evidence that's been presented at trial before announcing her final verdict.

Remember, there are multiple charges and options there. You remember also that Pistorius fatally shot girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp on Valentine's Day in 2013. The prosecution's claim, it wasn't intentional. The defense, the shooting was a tragic mistake. We'll give you more information as we get it.

Also, air strikes in Syria, more troops in Iraq. President Obama laying out his plan for destroying ISIS. Did it go far enough? Can it work? We have to do more.

We're going to talk with a congressman who just returned from a trip to the Mideast, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: On the eve of the 13th anniversary of the September 11th attacks, President Obama laid out his plan to eliminate another terror group that's threatening American interests in the Middle East.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

BOLDUAN (voice-over): The president authorized air strikes in Syria, saying the U.S. will hunt down ISIS wherever they go and stressed that while the fight will involve risks, it will not involve U.S. combat troops.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

BOLDUAN (on camera): Let's talk more about the strategy and what the president said last night with Congressman Eric Swalwell. He's a Democrat from California. He's on the House Homeland Security Committee and he recently visited the Middle East. Congressman, its great to see you. Thanks for coming in.

REP. ERIC SWALWELL (D), CALIFORNIA: Good morning, Kate.

BOLDUAN: So what is your take on the strategy that you heard from President Obama last night?

SWALWELL: I'm better informed now, having gone last week to the Middle East and I met with Prime Minister Netanyahu of Israel, the president of Egypt, and King Abdullah of Jordan. With the president laying out to the American people what the threat is and knowing that we can stitch together and lead a coalition of Arab nations who are most directly affected by this, to insure that we're protected at home, I feel much more comfortable going forward. I do believe, though, that Congress must authorize any future

expansion of the operations in Iraq or Syria. I think it's required, and it also will have the benefit I think of strengthening the president's hand as we go forward.

BOLDUAN: Why don't you think that the president -- let's clarify this. Why don't you think the president needs authorization right now? Because it was one year ago to the day that the president was talking about needing authorization to conduct air strikes in Syria. Now he thinks he has authorization.

SWALWELL: We're talking about expanding the map, and when you start to talk about Syria and wherever ISIL may be, I do believe that invokes Congress's constitutional authority. And I also think, as I said, we will be much stronger if Congress is able to buy in on this. We learned in 2003, in the rush to judgment there, that there were not enough controls on what the president was doing and I think we can put tighter controls on the president's actions, go after ISIL, and assure the American people that we are not going to repeat the same mistakes that were made 11 years ago.

BOLDUAN: So you think there should be a vote now, even though the president doesn't think he needs it?

SWALWELL: I think we should have a vote now and I think the president will get the authority from Congress. I think the American people understand that this could come to our homeland, that there are hundreds of foreign fighters, Americans who are fighting shoulder to shoulder with ISIL, and they're only about an eight to ten-hour airplane flight away from coming back to the United States.

I met yesterday, I sat in on the daily threat briefing with Administrator Pistole. I know that the TSA is doing everything they can to track these foreign fighters. It's very close to our shore and we must really scrub ISIL over in the Middle East before they come here. This, I think, can allow the president to do that in a much more effective and symbolic way.

BOLDUAN: Let's talk about your meetings overseas, do you trust in your meetings, and what you heard in your travels, do you trust that the coalitions with regional partners, that they will stand up? Do you trust that the regional actors will pull their weight, if you will? Because do you think this strategy can succeed without them?

SWALWELL: Our allies in the Middle East have no other choice but to stand up. While the threat to the United States is real, this is an existential threat. A threat to the very livelihood of countries like Jordan, of countries like Egypt, Iraq and to the fighters in Syria. They have no choice.

That's why I believe the U.S. can provide resources, intelligence, special operations assistance and air strikes. But these countries, they're going to have to be the ones that put men and women on the front lines and defend their very existence. Otherwise, ISIL will just run right over them and move closer to establishing their caliphate throughout the Middle East. BOLDUAN: Congressman, the president did not talk about a time table,

if you will last night. Did he define the end game well enough to you? Did he say enough to convince you that this will not suffer from mission creep, that this will not become another Iraq war?

SWALWELL: I think that's why Congress has to act. And Congress has to authorize what the parameters are for the president. The president has laid out the strategy, he's the commander-in-chief and sets the policy. But I think Congress can really tighten up just what the president's authority is to make sure that we do not have that mission creep. And he can come back to the Congress as we show progress, and we shouldn't forget that there has already been progress since the president acted just a month ago with air strikes. So I think the president shouldn't be afraid to go to Congress and Congress should exert its authority.

BOLDUAN: Make sure you're sending that message to your leaders, because right now it sure does not look like your leaders are ready to hold any votes ahead of this mid-term election. That seems to be something they're very happy to run away from at this very moment. Congressman Eric Swalwell, its great to have you here. Thank you very much, we'll have you back on soon.

SWALWELL: Great. Thanks, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Alrighty. Chris?

CUOMO: It is CNNMoney time. Your money. Chief business correspondent Christine Romans has news on the student debt crisis. Doesn't get enough attention, but it sure does matter.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: It does matter, Chris. Even more Americans are crushed by student debt. The analysis this week, new analysis, shows 40 million Americans have at least one outstanding student loan. That's up from 29 million in 2008.

Borrowers have on average $29,000 in loans, and that number is climbing every year. Here are three ways to keep down the debt in the first place. Number one, pick a college you can afford. You can't afford a Mercedes education on a Honda budget. Don't borrow too much. Number two, graduate in four years. Long gone are the days of five- year bachelor's degrees. You can finish in three years. There are universities who will design programs for this. Three years, even better. And number three, speak S.T.E.M., science, technology, engineering, math. That's where the jobs are. Whatever your major, translate your skills for that growing part of the economy. You get a bigger paycheck to pay down the loans. Chris?

CUOMO: I'd throw a fourth in there.

ROMANS: What?

CUOMO: You know, we've made borrowing for so many things easier, but not for student borrowing.

ROMANS: You're right. CUOMO: The rates are still higher, its not the same incentives that you get, lets say, for a home.

ROMANS: Yes.

CUOMO: I know you and I agree about that.

ROMANS: You're right. Keep the tuition down, too. Why does tuition have to go up so fast?

CUOMO: Exactly right. Strong point, strong point. Christine Romans, thank you very much.

We have much more on the Obama strategy to take down ISIS wherever they are.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

CUOMO (voice-over): Fighting words from the president. The key question, is the plan he laid out a good one? Will it work? We have a reaction to the speech from a prominent Republican senator who's looking at 2016 maybe to be president himself. Marco Rubio, ahead.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We will degrade and ultimately destroy ISIL. If you threaten America, you will find no safe haven.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The president really doesn't have a grasp for how serious the threat of ISIS is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: AP quoting an anonymous law enforcement source says that they shared the video with the NFL.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The cops had already seen the video so I assumed it wasn't a forceful blow.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two new eye witnesses and their spontaneous reaction after Michael Brown was killed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had his (EXPLETIVE DELETED) hands up.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: Good morning, welcome back to NEW DAY. Today is September 11, the 13th anniversary of those cowardly attacks on our shores. 13 years later, another president talks about another threat from the Middle East.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP) CUOMO (voice-over): In a nationally televised address, President Obama tells ISIS fighters, quote, "If you threaten America, you will find no safe haven." The president vowing he will not hesitate to launch air strikes against ISIS targets in Iraq and also Syria. So, he says he will deploy 475 additional troops to Iraq in a non-combat role. That will be controversial. But it makes it clear, that the United States is in for a long fight. Let's bring in Jim Acosta live from the White House. What is the response this morning?

(END VIDEOCLIP)

JIM ACOSTA, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Chris. Well, on this anniversary of 9/11, the president said there is no ISIS threat against the U.S. homeland. But he also came out talking tough, announcing his decision to order air strikes on ISIS in Syria, but the questions have already begun on just how he will get this job done.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

OBAMA: My fellow Americans --

ACOSTA (voice-over): It was a cautious commander-in-chief no more, rolling the dice with an ambitious plan to wipe out ISIS.

OBAMA: Our objective is clear. We will degrade and ultimately destroy ISIL through a comprehensive and sustained counterterrorism strategy.

ACOSTA: The president's biggest leap, ramping up U.S. air strikes on ISIS targets in both Iraq and Syria.

OBAMA: I have made it clear that we will hunt down terrorists who threaten our country wherever they are. This is a core principle of my presidency. If you threaten America you will find no safe haven.

ACOSTA: To help expand those air strikes, the president is sending 475 more U.S. service members to Iraq, raising the total there to 1600. Add to that, a new mission to equip and train moderate Syrian rebels. To make that happen, the president has been working the phones to build a global coalition, that officials say includes Saudi Arabia, which will host a training program for anti-ISIS fighters. But the president also insisted the war on ISIS will be different.

OBAMA: I want the American people to understand how this effort will be different from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. It will not involve American combat troops fighting on foreign soil.

ACOSTA: But Mr. Obama's decision reopened old wounds, as Republican senator John McCain and the president's former press secretary and now CNN contributor, Jay Carney, clashed over whether the president is to blame.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: The fact that they didn't leave a residual force in Iraq, overruling all of his military advisers, is the reason why we're facing ISIS today.

JAY CARNEY, FORMER PRESS SECRETARY TO THE PRESIDENT: I think that in the question of the residual force, you know, there was another player in that, which was the Iraqi government, a, b, it was the fulfillment of the previous administration's withdrawal plans.

MCCAIN: You are again saying facts that are patently false.

CARNEY: Senator, I can posit with great respect for you, that we disagree on that and --

MCCAIN: No, you can't, because you don't have the facts.

(CROSSTALK)

MCCAIN: You don't have the facts, Mr. Carney. That's the problem.

CARNEY: Senator, I understand that you present the facts that you believe are true based on the argument that you've made wrong - -

MCCAIN: No, not I believe are true. They are true.

CARNEY: - - for long time, sir, that we should leave troops in Iraq in perpetuity. That's just not what this president believes. That's you know, obviously he was elected president to fulfill what he believed was right for our country and right for our national security.

ACOSTA: Looking forward, expect more debate over the Syrian rebels that will take the fight to ISIS on behalf of the U.S. Senior administration officials say they're being vetted, but Republicans were skeptical before the speech.

(END VIDEOTAPE)