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New Day

White House Implementing Strategy against ISIS; Effectiveness of U.S. Strategy against ISIS Debated; Increasing Calls for Roger Goodell to Resign

Aired September 12, 2014 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The warden was quick to defend the prison and emphasize lane's recapture.

KEVIN JONES, WARDEN, ALLEN OAKWOOD CORRECTIONS INSTITUTION: Obviously I'm not happy that it's happened. No warden in my position would like something like this to happen. But the facts are I'm happy to announce that we have Mr. Lane back in our custody.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROWLANDS: And Chris, clearly the people in Chardon not happy this happened, but relieved that T.J. Lane is back in custody. The prison officials are reluctant to give details until a full investigation has been conducted. However, we do know that T.J. Lane and the two other inmates who are all in custody now were able to escape by scaling a fence.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Ted, you know this, but many will be surprised to hear that criminals who do terrible things aren't always in maximum-security prisons. Thank you for the reporting. We'll track back with you later.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: All right, now to preparing for the battle against ISIS. The administration is conducting surveillance flights over Syria on ISIS positions. The president and his national security team mapping out potential targets for air strikes based on this new intelligence. Joe Johns joins us now from White House with details. This as Secretary of State John Kerry saying no, the U.S. is not at war with is. The words are important.

JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's true, Michaela. It sure sounds like a war, but a source telling CNN the administration is trying to avoid elevating the international status of ISIS any more than has already occurred, and that's why they're not calling it a war.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHNS: This morning, U.S. surveillance flights over Syria are under way, the military now developing potential targets for future air strikes against ISIS militants a U.S. official has told CNN. This as CNN learns the CIA's estimate of the size of ISIS doubles. Now said to be between 20,000 and 30,000 fighters, and the number of westerners in their ranks, up to 2,000, including about a dozen Americans. Secretary of State John Kerry in the Middle East building a coalition,

nine Arab nations signing on in the battle against ISIS. Saudi Arabia agreeing to train anti ISIS fighters, but none of the nations expected to participate in military strikes.

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: I think that's the wrong terminology.

JOHNS: In an interview Kerry with CNN's Elise Labott Kerry took issue with this action being called a war.

KERRY: What we are doing is engaging in a very significant counterterrorism operation. And it's going to go on for some period of time. If somebody wants to think about it as being a war with ISIL, they can do so. But the fact is it's a major counterterrorism operation that will have many different moving parts.

JOHNS: Moving parts including money to arm Syrian rebels to fight is.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN, (D) WEST VIRGINIA: I'm going to have deep concerns about us investing taxpayers' dollars at $500 million to a group of rebels we're not sure how it will be used to our benefit.

JOHNS: But many parts of the president's plan receiving skepticism on Capitol Hill.

REP. JOHN BOEHNER, (R) HOUSE SPEAKER: An F-16 is not a strategy. And air strikes alone will not accomplish what we're trying to accomplish.

JOHNS: With one house Republican and former air force surveillance pilot in Iraq predicting a long slog.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think we are looking at a multi-year war in front of us, and I hope the American people are patient for it, because anything short of destroying this group is going to lead to many, many problems in the future.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JOHNS: Congressional force authorization debates can be agonizing political theater for the party in control of the White House. But without it, some say the administration runs the risk of being accused of running this outside of the law. Michaela?

PEREIRA: Joe Johns in Washington with the latest there. Chris?

CUOMO: All right, there are a lot of questions now as we're getting in the phase of how this is going to work. So let's get into the practicality as well as the politics here. We have Reza Aslan, he's the author of the "New York Times" best seller "Zealot, The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth." We have Mr. Philip Mudd, CNN counterterrorism analyst and former deputy director of the CIA counterterrorism center, and we have Hillary Mann Leverett, author of "Going to Tehran, Why America Must Accept the Islamic Republic of Iran." Thank you all of you esteemed panelists. Let's try to answer some of these questions that are plaguing the conversation right now. Reza, I start with you. Are we at war? Why are we playing with this word? Why do we hear the secretary of state playing with this word?

REZA ASLAN, AUTHOR, "ZEALOT": Because of course there are legal ramifications to the term "war." You know, we never really declared war against Iraq. And so for many people the very term itself brings up a lot of sticky issues that this is an administration that doesn't want to deal with it. So I think right now, what we're really focused on is a kind of counterterrorism program very much like we've been doing in places like Yemen and Somalia, as the president himself said.

CUOMO: Hillary, I hear you saying that you can't hear Reza. Can you hear me?

HILLARY MANN LEVERETT, AUTHOR, "GOING TO TEHRAN": Yes, I can.

CUOMO: So the question is this, Reza is saying if they use the word "war" it brings up some sticky legal questions. I think by that he means constitutional ones. But aren't those the exact questions we should be asking and getting answers to right now. Enough of the sleight of hand and allowing the executive to do whatever they want with the military. Shouldn't Congress be addressing these things and voting and declaring war and moving forward together.

LEVERETT: I think clearly there is a domestic imperative here for the American people to understand what is going on, which is why there is this constitutional requirement to go to Congress. But I think even more important, and that is something that to me is my biggest concern about the president's new strategy, is that a war against ISIS will play into the strategy of ISIS as it played into the strategy of Al Qaeda. Their strategy, their spoken, articulated, proven strategy, is to draw the United States into the region, to overreach, to be invading and occupying Muslim lands in order to generate recruits among a billion-strong pool of people.

That's why all of a sudden today we're shocked to hear that the CIA says that there are more members of ISIS than we thought that there were. In part that's because they've been able to successfully recruit in opposition to an increased U.S. bombing campaign. So the administration has to be very, very careful. If they actually want to do this campaign, they're trying to somehow subtly thread a needle here that it's not really a war, so people in the Middle East, especially Sunni Muslims, shouldn't get upset and shouldn't follow ISIS. I think that's going to be quite a leap.

CUOMO: In case, they should have said it's not a jihad. They could have used the word "war." But I'll tell you, luckily for us, the questions you raised can be answered by the man in the middle, Mr. Philip Mudd. The suggestion is that, hey, what you're doing right now is the opposite of what will help squash the idea. Do you agree with that? And the notion that the number is getting bigger, isn't that because we wanted them to be small when we were saying they were a jayvee team. We now want them to be big because we're going to dedicate all the resources. What's your take on those two points?

PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: First of all, if you look at the campaign since 9/11, on 9/11 when we were sitting in the threat chair at the CIA, we didn't have a good sense of the adversary. In our case I think we were on the back foot. Al Qaeda was on the offensive.

If you look at the areas where Al Qaeda has been damaged, Indonesia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Somalia, North Africa even, Yemen. In every one of those cases, U.S. military, U.S. intelligence, law enforcement, diplomacy, the same tools the president is talking about use against ISIS in Syria, the tools that I think have been fairly successful elsewhere. Measured problem, that is ISIS, they're not a huge problem, they're a measured problem, measured response.

In answer to your questions about numbers -- first of all, the term CIA estimate gives the word "estimate" a bad name. This is a guess. It's a lot smaller than what we faced against the Taliban in Afghanistan. Remember, we do have an Iraqi army that is modestly capable. Modestly willing to take the fight to ISIS, present on the ground. So I think the president is looking at this saying, hey, we've used tools elsewhere against a terror target and we have a partner here who can beat the insurgent target.

CUOMO: Philip Mudd being unusually general this morning.

LEVERETT: But this strategy that my colleague, Phil, has articulated, instead of being a success has been an unmitigated disaster. We now have a much more profound --

MUDD: Nonsense.

LEVERETT: -- a much more widespread, much deeper, much more complicated threat on our hands.

CUOMO: Philip Mudd says nonsense. Hillary, hold on. Why nonsense, Philip?

MUDD: Look at every one of the areas where we went in against this adversary without using U.S. force. Al-Shabaab in Somalia, heavily damaged. Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, less of a threat than they were two years ago.

LEVERETT: They never were a threat.

MUDD: Excuse me, they had a suicide bomber --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: One at a time.

LEVERETT: The heart and soul of this is in the middle of the Middle East, is the goal to take over Mecca and Medina, which ISIS wants to do, and that's why they can galvanize support. And that's why what we're doing feeds right into their strategy.

CUOMO: What's the alternative, Hillary? Or actually, Reza, you tell me what's the alternative?

ASLAN: Hillary is making an argument that's been made before on a number of occasions. But the problem with that argument is that we have no intention of invading or occupying any country. And secondly, let's not forget ISIS is profoundly unpopular. Nobody likes ISIS.

LEVERETT: That is not true. That is not true. There's a Saudi --

ASLAN: Please allow me to finish.

CUOMO: Hillary, don't be part of the problem. Be part of the solution, let him speak.

ASLAN: ISIS is not Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda had a popularity that ISIS does not enjoy. On the contrary, in fact perhaps the most remarkable thing about ISIS is the way that it's brought these enemies together. Both Sunnis and Shia, Iran and Saudi Arabia, Turks and Kurds --

LEVERETT: That's wishful thinking.

ASLAN: So I think that an aerial bombardment that is also supplemented with Arab troops on the ground, with Kurdish troops on the ground, perhaps even Iranian boots on the ground, is a proper strategy for dealing with an insurgency problem.

CUOMO: Hillary, Hillary --

LEVERETT: That's wishful thinking.

CUOMO: Hold on, let's frame the debate, so we keep it going, because we want to make sure you respond to what matters most. What they're saying is this -- there's been a galvanizing of anger for and against ISIS. Now, you say that's not true. What is your proof that it is not true?

LEVERETT: We have data. The Saudis have actually polled among their population. A Saudi-owned newspaper did a major poll in July that found that 92 percent, 9-2, 92 percent of Saudis think that the values and adherence to Islamic law that ISIS promulgates, puts forward, accords with their own. That's enormous support. We're in denial about the support that ISIS can tap into, and that's why we're always shocked, shocked that this happened.

CUOMO: I'm with you. I understand where you're coming from on it. But let's unpack the poll, Philip Mudd, 92 percent say they like the values of is. But isn't it true that what they don't like is that it's an alternative to Wahhabism and they accept their own version of those values and are against ISIS' holding of those values and that's why they would ultimately be against ISIS?

MUDD: Look, let's go numbers versus numbers. First, we're not in a fight against values. I don't care what people think about values. I care about what they think about beheading people and putting them on stakes. If you look at polling, Pew Research for example, going across the Middle East in the past 13 years, the number of people who support either Al Qaeda or suicide bombings has declined. We're not in a fight against ISIS values. We're in a fight against people who are suicide bombers, raping women, and putting heads on stakes. People don't agree with that. I agree with Reza.

CUOMO: So, it is a complicated situation to be sure. Thank you for laying out the plus-minus on this. We're going to have to see. Unfortunately sometimes we have these cliches, you know, we will see. This is actually one of those situations. As the actions take place on the ground, and supposedly our Arab allies get involved with the west, we'll see what changes and what actually gets fomented. Reza Aslan, Philip Mudd, Hillary Mann Leverett, thank you very much for joining us. We'll be talking to you again and have a good weekend.

John, a lot of news this morning. Over to you, my friend.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, let's take a look at the headlines, Chris. Ukrainian government forces and pro-Russian rebels traded prisoners Thursday night. The swap was part of a ceasefire negotiated during peace talks in Belarus last week.

Meanwhile, new economic sanctions against Russia go into effect today. The European Union sanctions are in response to Russian support of anti-government rebels in Ukraine. The new measures freeze assets and ban travel for several Russian officials and rebel leaders.

The mother of American James Foley lashing out at the U.S. government, saying she is embarrassed and appalled by how the government dealt with her son's case. In an exclusive CNN interview, Diane Foley says she thinks they considered the family's efforts to free her son, quote, "an annoyance." She says they even threatened her with prosecution if she tried to raise ransom money. James Foley, of course, is one of two Americans executed on video by ISIS terrorists. We're going to hear her interview coming up.

Dozens of homes evacuated after heavy rains caused flash floods in Memphis. More than 30 people had to be rescued from cars stuck in high water. In a dramatic rescue caught on video, one man was pulled to safety from his car just before it really disappeared into the floodwaters. More rain expected in the area today and a flash flood warning in effect through this evening just in time for the weekend.

PEREIRA: Goodness, what a mess.

CUOMO: You see that picture?

PEREIRA: Hang on, Memphis.

CUOMO: There are going to be more of them. Thanks for that, J.B.

So another day, another report that says NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell is lying about when he saw the Ray Rice elevator video. The question is now not so much about Ray Rice and what he did, but really, squarely on the league. And the question is can the commissioner keep his job without his credibility?

PEREIRA: Also, if you check out the state of Iowa over the next few days, you just might think there's a presidential election already under way there. Hillary and Bill Clinton will be there. Up ahead we're going to have brand new CNN poll numbers that you and Hillary Clinton might want to take a look at.

CUOMO: I wonder if she's the favorite? (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: Welcome back to NEW DAY, growing calls for the resignation of NFL commissioner Roger Goodell after an ESPN report says Goodell knew months ago, we're talking in June, what Ray Rice did to his then- fiancee, now-wife Janay Palmer, Janay Rice, in a casino elevator. Four different sources told ESPN that Rice came clean to the NFL and to the commissioner about punching Palmer when he met with Goodell earlier in the summer. That directly contradicts what Goodell said just last week on CBS.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROGER GOODELL, NFL COMMISIONER: When we met with Ray Rice and his representatives, it was ambiguous about what actually happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: Goodell says it wasn't clear what happened until he saw the video that TMZ released, despite the "Associated Press" report that said the NFL had the tape for five months. Joining us now to sort it all out, if we can, Greg Anthony, CNN political commentator and former NBA player, Chris Draft is with us, he's a former player for the Atlanta Falcons and the president and founder of the Chris Draft Family Foundation. Gentlemen, good morning and thank you so much for being here.

PEREIRA: Make sure we've got communication, can you hear me just fine, Chris? Okay. Let's start with you, Greg. Alright, so this new report that Ray Rice told Goodell exactly what happened in the elevator. ESPN has four different sources about knowledge of the conversation. Yet this discussion of ambiguity. No ambiguity there, methinks.

GREG ANTHONY, CNN POLITCAL COMMENTATOR: Not at all. And it's interesting, when I was playing in the NBA I was ALSO vice president of our players association. So the process that is utilized when it comes to determining fines, they're pretty thorough, the leagues have their own investigative tools, if you will, to go about and determine what the actual punishment is going to be. So for them, either way this looks bad. Because if he punished him with not having all the information, that in and of itself, to me, doesn't make any sense.

And if he did it knowing all the information and now is trying to back-track it, it's also bad. Either way you look at this thing, it's really going to create a serious problem for Roger Goodell. And his tenure, potentially. Because it's really bad, now this has become a bigger story than what the original story was with Ray Rice. And this thing is going to drag out potentially, because now they have an investigator, Robert Mueller, coming in to try to determine what actually happened. So this is really a black eye for Roger Goodell. And the commissioner's office.

PEREIRA: For the commissioner's office for the NFL, for the Ravens, I mean there's so many arms to this. I want to talk about the player aspect, Chris, if you don't mind. We see a lot of players coming out. We've seen tweets coming out. Directed at Goodell. But it's interesting, you know, let's be fair, some of those players have their own axes to grind with the commissioner.

CHRIS DRAFT, FORMER NFL PLAYER, ATLANTA FALCONS: Yes. It's a difficult situation. Because when you look at it, the fact that he was only given two games, there was already a, I guess an upswell that was saying man, how can you get two when there are other issues from substance abuse and you know, in performance-enhancing drugs, you know how can that work? I think when you look at it, the NFL, when it's come to issues that are outside kind of substance abuse and performance-enhancers, have really kind of followed the court system a little bit more.

They haven't been one to bring in other evidence. So the issues were dealt with in the court and unfortunately, I think when you see this issue, they didn't see the bigger issue that potentially could happen. So they looked at Ray, they said Ray, he was, he was I guess up front as much as he could. You know, there's some debate in terms of that. But they felt like in his case, that he was, his character before that had allowed him to have a little bit more leeway. But I think it's clear it wasn't enough. Think that's where people are mad, and that absolutely it's very clear that they didn't have a clear domestic abuse policy. So there wasn't a guideline that said it was really more by individual. And that's really what has to come out of this, is a clear policy. And to send a message of where the NFL stands on this issue.

PEREIRA: I want to talk about that in a second. But first to Goodell, Greg, if you will. You talked about the tenure of Roger Goodell. We know the players have been, a lot of players have been vocal. We know the National Organization for Women has been very vocal. Other voices have been very vocal, calling for his resignation. The players, obviously, can't fire Roger Goodell. They can put pressure, maybe, I don't know, or can they, on the owners? The owners for their part, they're backing Goodell for the most part, it would seem.

ANTHONY: And as they should. I mean, really up until this incident, if you look at his tenure, I think he's done a pretty good job as a commissioner, that plays in his favor. But, having said that, what's ultimately going to determine whether or not he remains is how the public responds and whether or not this starts to have an impact on their business. Listen, we just went through this with Donald Sterling and the NBA. There were people who had, who kind of knew the type of person Donald Sterling was, but until it started to affect the business of the NBA -- you didn't see a lot. And so that's what's going to have to play out here. Does the business of the NFL start to be affected because of the way they mishandled this entire Ray Rice situation. And that, ultimately, I think is going to determine what happens in terms of Roger Goodell.

PEREIRA: And the Sterling situation, we saw sponsors say no, right now we don't feel confident about supporting the Clippers or Donald Sterling. We'll take our money elsewhere. And that's a question right now that remains to be seen. Will sponsors have the same reaction. Greg, or rather Chris, 16 -- getting into politics now -- 16 female U.S. senators sent a letter to the commissioner calling for a real zero tolerance policy. And you alluded to that before. There have been some changes made to the domestic violence policy within the NFL. There needs, there are many voices calling for more to be done. More substantive things to be done. Any suggestions? Any thoughts, any ideas?

DRAFT: You definitely have to bring that, you have to take that under advisement. It's a huge issue right now. I think the hard thing for the NFL without having something in place, is that they're making a decision based on what happened with Ray Rice, where you have a clear video, where there's evidence. And I think you know, really in this situation, without having something in place, they really didn't have something to go by. So they really underestimated. They underestimated how that video would play out where this wasn't about kind of an internal issue that just needed to be worked out. This was going to be something that was going to get to the public.

And regardless of if they saw the video from inside the elevator, eventually that was going to come out. It was going to come out. I think where you see the real issue was not anticipating, if it came out what would happen and then really not seeing the bigger picture of, you know, what kind of message does the NFL have to send in this case. And really understand that we're in a different world right now. And really making that decision. So if anything, it just didn't handle it well enough with realizing that this was not about Ray Rice just individually and his wife. But really, about a bigger message that was going to send a message to the country.

PEREIRA: Speaking of messages, perfect segue, Greg, final thoughts from you, last night. The Ravens played, we know CBS changed their initial plan for the broadcast yesterday. Rihanna was scheduled to have a recorded performance, a lot of people were questioning the appearance and the optics of that. How did they do overall, what kind of grade would you give the Ravens organization for last night's handling, given the backdrop that they're in right now?

ANTHONY: Listen, I don't know that there's a perfect way to do it when you're dealing with this. A lot of this is unprecedented. You know, most teams haven't had these kinds of experiences. So I would say for the most part, they handled it well. I just think, listen, no one is prepared, that's part of the problem and that also why a lot of people are upset with Roger Goodell, is when you get to a position of authority, people expect you to have solutions. And have the right solutions. When they were faced with something as difficult and as public as this, they didn't necessarily handle it well. Moving forward, with last night, I thought that was, other than the fact that I'm a Steelers fan and my guys got pummeled, I thought the Ravens overall did about as good as they could. And I thought you saw a lot of people there supporting Ray Rice. Which you would have expected as well.

PEREIRA: Well it's a new world order, as you said. Hopefully we all of us can learn from this and move forward and not make the same mistakes in the past. Chris, Greg, great conversation with you, thanks so much for joining us.

ANOTHONY: Thank you. PEREIRA: Oscar Pistorius, he's behind bars after a judge found him

guilty in the shooting death of his girlfriend, Reeva Steenkamp. We're live from the courthouse in Pretoria, South Africa. With reaction to the verdict.

And who will control the Senate after this year's elections? A handful of races will be key, including the one in Iowa. Brand new poll numbers might show you how tight that race is getting.

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