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U.S. Says Arab Nations Will Help Fight ISIS; Abuse Scandal Plagues NFL; Ray Rice Expected to Appeal Suspension

Aired September 15, 2014 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo, Kate Bolduan, and the Michaela Pereira.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. And welcome once again to NEW DAY, everyone. It's Monday, September 15, 8:00 in the East now in this hour. We begin with the major strategy session to take out ISIS, happening right now is Paris.

Leaders from around the world including Secretary of State John Kerry are agreeing to support Iraq in its battle against the terror group, including providing military aids. Some Arab Nations are also offering to help.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Question becomes, what does help mean? Bombs will not be enough. So, who will be on the ground fighting among these 40 participating countries? This is all unfolding after what you're seeing right there -- the savage killing of a third Westerner at the hand of ISIS. This time a British aid worker named David Haines.

What is the latest?

Senior White House correspondent Jim Acosta joins us with the latest.

What is the latest, my friend?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, the latest this morning, Chris, is the Obama administration is announcing a new series of pilot programs in cities across the country aimed at countering violent extremism like what is posed by ISIS. And all that comes as the White House and Secretary of State John Kerry are making this pretty bold claim this morning there are Arab countries willing to participate in strikes against ISIS.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ACOSTA (voice-over): The violent rise of ISIS is terrifying governments across the Middle East to the point that Secretary of State John Kerry says countries in the region are willing to step up with airstrikes.

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: We have countries in this region, countries outside of this region, in addition the United States, all of whom are prepared to engage in military assistance, in actual strikes, if that is what it requires. ACOSTA: The Obama administration is so far unwilling to name those

Arab partners. But as one senior State Department official put it, I don't want to leave you with the impression that these Arab members haven't offered to do air strikes, because several of them have.

That show of support comes as ISIS is threatening to kill more hostages after a third Westerner, British aid worker, David Haines, was beheaded over the weekend.

MICHAEL HAINES, BROTHER OF DAVID HAINES: We hoped, we prayed in our way. Unfortunately, it was not in our hands. It was not in the hand of the government. It was in the hands of terrorists.

ACOSTA: British officials think Prime Minister David Cameron now knows the identity of the beheader.

PETER BERGEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: He's a part of a group sometimes referred to as the Beatles. That was a name their captives gave him. And he is one of, you know, 500 Brits who have gone to Syria to fight.

ACOSTA: Cameron says it's up to a global coalition to destroy ISIS.

DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: Islam is a religion of peace. They are not Muslims; they are monsters.

ACOSTA: A growing number of critics in Congress are questioning whether President Obama can defeat ISIS without putting U.S. combat troops on the ground. The White House says that job will go to Iraqi security forces and soon-to-be-trained Syrian rebels.

DENIS MCDONOUGH, WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: What's most important here is that the Syrian opposition on the ground fighting ISIL can count on American and coalition air power to supercharge their effort.

ACOSTA: That's not enough for South Carolina GOP Senator Lindsey Graham.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: This is a turning in the war on terror. Our strategy will fail yet again. This president needs to rice to the occasion before we all get killed here back here at home.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ACOSTA: And this will be a critical week for President Obama in taking on ISIS. Tomorrow, he's scheduled to meet with the man he's tapped to lead the ISIS fight, Retired General John Allen. Then, the president heads to Tampa on Tuesday for meeting Wednesday with top commanders at the Central Command headquarters, down there, to talk about what really is taking place in terms of the U.S. response to ISIS right now, what may be heading down the road -- Chris.

CUOMO: And, you know, Jim, people are going to hear about proposals to stop recruitment and deal with cultural change. They'll pooh-pooh them as, you know, not being forceful and about violence and military action. But they're probably every bit as useful stemming the tide going forward as anything that happens with bombs or boots on the ground.

Thank you for the reporting this morning, my friend.

ACOSTA: You bet.

CUOMO: Kate?

BOLDUAN: Let's discuss this further with Philip Mudd, CNN counterterrorism analyst and former deputy director of the CIA Counterterrorism Center. And Shibley Telhami, Brookings Institution senior fellow and a University of Maryland professor. As well as Hillary Mann Leverett, author of "Going to Tehran: Why America Must Accept the Islamic Republic of Iran."

Good morning to all of you.

A lot to discuss this morning, as this really is another critical week in the strategy against ISIS.

Philip, first to you. I mean, we have John Kerry over, he's been really flying all over the world at this point, trying to galvanize support and get coalition of regional partners. What do you think John Kerry is going to get coming out of this conference?

He said over the weekend that he has buy in now from Arab nations, some wanting to conduct air strikes, but we don't know who and we don't know what else these nations are going to contribute.

PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: My guess is not much. What he's going to get is optics. Not much on the ground.

Look, the U.S. is going to lead the intelligence flight. We've got drones flying in airspace over Syria. The Iraqi army has shown more backbone many in the past weeks. ISIS gains are slowing.

So, I think what he's looking for is modest air strikes my guess from people like Jordanian, UAE, maybe the Turks and the Saudis. But the real reason is he's getting this, after the year after 9/11, you don't want in the Middle East the U.S. leading another major military effort in an Arab county. You want the optic to have the Arabs are with us. And I think we'll have that at least in theory.

BOLDUAN: But on the most basic Hillary, isn't that's what's happening? United States is leading. The United States will not be putting boots on the ground though, but the United States is leading this effort. The president, he came out himself and said it. You think this plays into ISIS' strategy. Why?

HILLARY MANN EVERETT, GOING TO TEHRAN: Absolutely. Every piece of empirical data that we have, going back not just to 9/11 but before 9/11 shows that the U.S. bombing and/or perceived occupation of Muslim populations directly leads to suicide terrorism. Every piece of empirical data we have shows that. It drives recruitment among jihadists.

So, the president, unfortunately -- the administration is unfortunately pursuing a policy that will make things much, much worse. We've seen this bad movie before when we tried to act with our so called Arab allies like Saudis and the Emiratis. When we all went kumbaya into Libya. And now, we have a disaster in our hands in Libya.

We're now going to put that on a much more global stage with our European so called partners. And this is only going to drive recruitment for jihad terrorist and make this problem much, much worse.

And unlike, Phil, I think Saudis and others will do something real, important, dangerous which is to arm, train, fund yet more Sunni militants on their soil. The so-called Syrian moderate opposition, which is mythical, doesn't really exist, until the saw did Saudis, arm, train, fund it. Just like they help us do that with the mujahidin in Afghanistan before 9/11 and in Libya. This is a proven recipe for disaster for many different angles.

BOLDUAN: Shibley, do you agree? Do you think this is a recipe for strategy? Do you think that the strategy is going to make the situation worse?

SHIBLEY TELHAMI, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION SENIOR FELLOW: Well, think about the oddity of it. The United States goes to plead with Middle East leader for us to help save them. And, you know, this is really strange. When you do that, it looks like this is about America.

The president had a good instinct after the Arab uprising. Don't make this about America, because there is a fight within the region. And in some ways, ISIS helped him make that case, because unlike al Qaeda which is focused on confronting the U.S., ISIS at least in the short to medium term said it's after the Arab rule.

It's a horrific organization. But people in the region are beginning to sense that this is a threat to them. And, frankly, when it starts looking like this is America's fight, it's a problem. The administration is trying to distance itself from that interpretation.

But look what's happening in Jordan. Jordan is probably the most threatened country outside of Iraq and Syria by ISIS. You have the opposition both Islamists and secular opposition pleading with the king not to join, quote, "America's war." Yes, this is a problem. And perception is everything.

So, it makes it more difficult and in some ways it helps Arab leaders, because it removes heat from them when is focuses on U.S. and not them.

BOLDUAN: Yes, but then, Philip, what do you do if this is going to make things worse, if it looks like America's war? What should the U.S. be doing? You can't back out.

MUDD: No, I don't think we should. If you look at successes in global counterterror campaign in places like the Philippines, Indonesia, I think Yemen is modest success, long ways to go there. Somalia looks a lot different than it looked a couple of years ago. Most of these situations, local security forces including intelligence

and militaries are leading the fight. It's the U.S. providing a little bit of assistance, intelligence in the cases of Yemen, Somalia drone strikes.

So, I agree, I don't think this should be America's war. But there's a lot we can do, including identifying targets in Syria and striking them at the leadership of ISIS, and then letting the Iraqis and others take on sort of trench fighters of ISIS in Iraq. So, it doesn't have to be America's war, but we can bring a lot to bare as we were in other venues successful, I think.

(CROSSTALK)

TELHAMI: I don't know about the success. What you're talking about. We're a powerful nation militarily. We can destroy a lot. I mean, with Saddam Hussein, we got him out quickly, rapidly, against an entrenched army. But look what happened after.

It's what happens the morning after, and that is not in America's hands. So, ultimately, that's where you need the locals to get involved in a very major political way. And that's exactly what needs to happen prior to any serious military intervention.

BOLDUAN: Right, Shibley, but, Hillary, jump in on this. Why does it seem Arab nations are so reluctant to buy in?

MANN: Well, they don't want to as Shibley I think very correctly pointed out, be associated with what is seen as increasingly as America's war against Islam. We have just this week, we had one of the most powerful, most persuasive Sunni clerics in the Sunni Muslim world come out and say even that though he had been critical about ISIS and tactics, up until now, now it was America's war with Islam. That's something Sunni Muslims should take seriously and be against the United States further militarizing, further bombing within their civilian populations.

ISIS doesn't have command and control headquarters, or battalions or troops barracks, put in barracks. They're in populations. And so, bombing means killing civilians, which will generate even more resentment and drive recruitment further for jihadists.

We have to focus on the core problem here. The problem we reinvigorated ISIS, that energize them, gave them a new lease on life, was the militarization of the uprising in Syria. That's where we have to focus, a political resolution, conflict resolution.

Something we're rusty at because we think there's a military solution. There isn't. We need to focus on resolving that conflict. That is the only thing at this point.

TELHAMI: Well, one of the problems for the United States, it needs to define what is at stake.

BOLDUAN: That was going to be exactly my question. What is the definition of success and the end game at this point? Then, Phil, I want your last point.

TELHAMI: Absolutely. First of all, in terms of success, I'm not sure what it is, because, frankly, if we kill all of the leaders of ISIS, it could morph into something else if there's an environment that -- look at what happened to al Qaeda. I think you look at ISIS in Iraq at least, ISIL in Iraq as a morphing of al Qaeda and former Hussein military people.

So, the reality of it is, what is that success? From American point of view, it's bigger than that. Isn't -- are we defending allies? Are we protecting national interest in the long term? What are they? Why aren't we defining very well? Or are we doing humanitarian emission as we started in Iraq?

And that's the problem right now, is we're not clear on the exact nature of that mission. It's, of course, not clear to the rest of the world which in the Middle East, of course, they're suspicious of America's intention no matter what, even when we intervene for good reasons as we did in Iraq for humanitarian. They think we're doing it for other hidden purposes.

BOLDUAN: Philip, do you think the administration sees the risk as worth it? Does that convey when the United States continues to say we are will not be putting boots on the ground. Can they win if they're not the ones that are going to be leading with boots on the ground?

TELHAMI: It can be a political win.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Go ahead, Philip.

MUDD: I agree with that. Let me go to reality city here for a minute away from theory. If you're sitting in a chair at CIA or the FBI, there's a political process, I agree, that has to transpire in Iraq and Syria. But meanwhile, if you see plotting from leadership in ISIS in Syria, and that plotting involves Americans, Brits, French, and you don't act against that plotting, when there's a strike in New York City and you're doing congressional hearings, let me tell you what that feels like. It's not a lot of fun.

So, you can talk about the theory of political process, I agree. But if you choose not to intervene, when people are plotting, there is going to be hell to pay. That's my point.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Final point.

LEVERETT: Over the past few days we've seen an important "New York Times" reporting on President Obama's views that he gave in these dinner conversations, these hour long dinners conversations with foreign policy, the foreign policy establishment and media pundits. There he talks about how essentially he's been captured by the process. And he looks back and says, I wasn't here in Washington in the lead up to invasion of Iraq. I wonder if it was like this.

It is not clear -- we're not getting a clear message from the president that he thinks ISIS is a threat to the United States and he has an effective strategy to combat it. So, in that environment, it really behooves that to point the danger of the road we're going on, because otherwise he's in a vacuum captured by the political process that sees militarization as a solution.

BOLDUAN: An important part, there are dual narratives always when there's an important decision to take the country down the road. How big of a threat is ISIS to the United States? I think it's a different answer in the immediate and long term. But that also needs to be part of this reality and this honest conversation.

It clearly shows in this discussion, just talking about air strikes does not give anybody a clear picture of how complex the strategy is and how complex situation is on the ground.

Philip, Shibley, Hillary, thank you so much.

TELHAMI: Pleasure.

BOLDUAN: Of course.

Let's get over to Michaela, a lot of other headlines we're watching this morning.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Certainly are.

Fourteen minutes past the hour.

About 200 troops are in Ukraine for U.S.-led military exercises. Over a thousand troops from 15 countries are taking part in exercise, rapid trident, to promote cooperation among NATO and partner nations. This comes amid escalating violence in Eastern Ukraine. Shelling rocked the region Sunday as captive Ukrainian soldiers were released by pro- Russian rebels.

The White House is developing a major U.S. effort to help fight the Ebola outbreak in Africa. President Obama will present details of his plan during the Centers for Disease Control meeting in Atlanta tomorrow. The administration is asking Congress to approve a request for $88 million to fight the virus. The World Health Organization says at least 2,400 people have died so far in this outbreak.

Hillary Clinton returning to Iowa for the first time since the 2008 campaign.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: I'm back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: She appeared in an annual state fry fund-raiser Sunday. The main course, though, was a little bit of a political injury, with the crowd trying to divine if Clinton will in fact run for president in 2016. She admitted, it is on her mind, saying, quote, "It is true, I'm thinking about it."

That is progress from no comment.

BOLDUAN: I am on a team of --she's running until she tells me she's not running at this point.

PEREIRA: I'm with you there.

CUOMO: Like Iowa, spent quality time in Iowa. I'm not going there unless I'm running for president.

BOLDUAN: What? You don't like the steak fries?

CUOMO: I like steak fries.

BOLDUAN: They have a good steak fry there.

CUOMO: But you know why the polls go? You know why they go.

BOLDUAN: That's right.

CUOMO: But do we know what's happening with Ray Rice? Segue. He's going to fight his suspension. And you could argue he's going to win. Here's why -- the NFL domestic abuse policy is six games suspended for first offense. Why did he get suspended indefinitely?

Meanwhile, the NFL has a bigger problem on its hands. Two more players sidelined over domestic abuse. Will commissioner Roger Goodell survive it? There's a secret underlining situation revealed ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: It is week two of the NFL season. You could argue Jets season is already over. But it doesn't matter because what's going on off the field is more important and getting more attention than what's happening on it.

Ray Rice, who stepped out with his wife this weekend is reportedly set to fight his indefinite suspension for knocking her out.

Meanwhile, two other NFL stars forced to sit out Sunday because of violent incidents.

CNN's Nischelle Turner following developments for us. And there are plenty of those.

Good morning, Nischelle.

NISCHELLE TURNER, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, Chris, there are. The list seems to keep growing.

And, you know, you mentioned it. It's not just the players when we hear their names we say who are you talking about? In many of these cases, they're the stars of their team and stars of NFL. NFL fans are used to playing Monday morning quarterback lamenting over what happened to their favorite players on the field.

But once again this week, fans are playing legal analysts and talking what happened outside the white lines. Football is America's favorite sport, but once again, a handful of players and the commissioner himself are making headlines for all the wrong reasons.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TURNER (voice-over): Multiple reports this morning saying Ray Rice is expected to appeal his indefinite suspension from the NFL, after a video surfaced of him punching his then fiancee unconscious in an Atlantic City casino elevator. Both ESPN and profootballtalk.com cite sources saying he'll file the appeal.

However, the players association tells CNN that an appeal decision has not been made, saying, quote, "We don't know if or when our filing will come."

This weekend, Rice was spotted on the sidelines of his high school football game, his wife Janay by his side. It's the first time they have been to a public event since the video of the attack surfaced.

Two other NFL players also seen disciplinary action on Sunday. Adrian Peterson, star running back for the Minnesota Vikings, deactivated, after he was indicted on felony child abuse charges for whipping his 4-year-old son repeatedly with a switch.

PHIL GRANT, ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Obviously, parents are entitled to discipline their children as they see fit, except when that discipline exceeds what the community would say is reasonable.

TURNER: His attorney says Peterson never intended to harm his son, saying Adrian is a loving father who used his judgment as a parent to discipline his son.

ESPN's Cris Carter in an emotional pre-game rant says the Vikings did the right thing.

CRIS CARTER, ESPN: You can't beat a kid to make them do what they want to do.

We are in a climate right now, I don't care what it is. Take them off the dang field, because you know what, as a man, that's the only thing we really respect.

We don't respect no women. We don't respect no kid. The only thing, Roger, take them off the field, because they respect that.

TURNER: Some fans came out if support, wearing Peterson jerseys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know what? It's a personal life. I only care about what he does on the field. It's all I care about.

TURNER: This Vikings fan supported her jersey, along with as switch to the game.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He didn't do anything bad. He just disciplined his kid in a way that most people don't even know what a switch is.

TURNER: Also absent from the field Sunday, Carolina's Panther defensive end Greg Hardy, who was found guilty in July by a judge, beating up and threatening to kill his girlfriend. He is now appealing that ruling.

RON RIVERA, CAROLINA PANTHERS HEAD COACH: A decision was made, we believe this was in the best interest of the Carolina Panthers, this is a difficult situation that the league is dealing with right now. Teams are dealing with this. We are doing the best we can.

TURNER: A troubling time for NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell as calls for him to resign grow louder. Planes with banners reading "Goodell must go" flying over several stadiums on Sunday.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TURNER: Now, reports by ESPN and NBC Sports this morning say Ray Rice will file appeal today. But according to the NFL's collective bargaining agreement, he does have until Tuesday at midnight to do that. Now, on just the facts, it looks like he has a good case for appeal. In the court of public opinion, this could be a no win situation for him, because whether it's Rice, Adrian Peterson, Greg Hardy, Ray McDonald or Roger Goodell's woes, one thing the NFL cannot deny is they do have a PR problem -- Chris.

CUOMO: That's for sure. Let's turn to sports business analyst Keith Reed and former NFL player George Martin of the New York Giants.

He is also, Mr. Martin, author of the book "Just Around the Bend: My Journey for 9/11", a fascinating story.

It's good to have you back, George.

Good to meet you, Keith.

Let's talk off all news items and let people know where everything stands. Roger Goodell, does he go?

GEORGE MARTIN, FORMER NFL PLAYER: He does not go. I'm sure this is his version of Groundhog Day, here it is once again, deja vu all over. But I think in the grand scheme of things, Roger has enough clout among the 32 owner who are billionaires, that I think he's going to sustain this.

By the way, it's time, Chris, for us to change the narrative. We all express our moral outrage. We've all come to the indignation of what happened. But let's look at how can we turn this to something positive? And I think that's what the NFL is going to do eventually.

CUOMO: Keith, do you agree? Is there argument he should go?

KEITH REED, SPORTS BUSINESS ANALYST: I think there's something of an argument to be made that he should go. I don't think he's going to go. I think, like he said, he has may too much clout among the owners. He's done so much good for the league definitely in terms of how much money they make. And, of course, we know that is ultimately the bottom line.

CUOMO: So, now we get to George's proposition. How do we make things change? Ray Rice is going to litigate the suspension. I say he's going to win. The defense on the part of the league will say, no, you don't get the six games, you get it indefinitely because you lied to us about the matter. Are they lying when they say he lied?

REED: Well, they're really challenging that because the league already came out and said that they aired in terms of the disciplined that they handed him the first time around and they disciplined him again. The CBA says you cannot discipline a player twice.

CUOMO: Collective bargaining agreement.

REED: Collective bargaining agreement says you cannot discipline a player twice.

CUOMO: But even if the players union stand as down because they don't want stink on their hands on this, if NFL says, George, no, you're getting this indefinitely because you lied to us. Isn't that dangerous for them? Because when they say -- not only we did see the video, we had no idea what was on the video, isn't that a lie?

MARTIN: It's inherently dangerous because the burden of proof is not on Ray Rice. It's on the league. And, of course, they constituted what I considered to be double jeopardy. You cannot charge this individual twice. You've already administered a degree of punishment with the standard you set. And now you're going to reset hit after you view the video. I think that's injustice within itself.

CUOMO: Adrian Peterson, casualty for the PR campaign or is this the right move for the league?

MARTIN: I think it is right for the league under the circumstances, although I think we still have to establish, what is the proper amount of discipline? There's a distinction between discipline and what he apparently did which was abuse.

CUOMO: It's not spanking. He called this spanking. But, Keith, it's not spanking.

REED: Not so, but worse than that. I've got two sons. I've never done anything like that especially not at age four. When you leave welts on a kid's leg.

And there's a little bit cultural element to this, right? Adrian Peterson is from the South, this happened in Texas, you will hear people who are from the South who say, you know, go get a switch. This is the kind of thing that happens down there all the time. But you've still got to draw the line.

(CROSSTALK) CUOMO: Let's check the box. Does this fall under the category, Chris, you don't get it, you're a white guy. Listen to Charles Barkley.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLES BARKLEY: I'm from the South. Whipping is -- we do that all the time. Every black parent in the South is going to be in jail under those circumstances.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: I've got a lot of black friends who are from the south who say don't count me among that number. Does he have a point?

MARTIN: He has an absolute point. I'm a Southerner. I grew up that way. And trust me, I was administered the belt, switch, you name it.

And I was a product of discipline. I don't consider it abuse because I think that was a cultural thing we grew up in.

Also, Chris, to add to that, it's a generational thing, just because I was black and come from the south, I met many white Northerners disciplined by their parents with an open hand, fist. They considered it acceptable back in the day.

Of course, things have changed. Pendulum has swung. And we don't do that anymore.

CUOMO: Now, you make a great point. I'm going to take it a step further and I you're your take -- NFL is bad. You guys are too violent. Put on all this muscle. Look like George Martin, and you can't control yourselves. That's the problem, that's why we're seeing this.

I would argue that's not true. Numbers tell a different story. The number of arrests for anything, domestic violence or anything else much lower in the NFL than overall. OK?

And look at Ray Rice. No case was made by the police even though they had the video. What does that tell you? That they didn't feel the responsibility of the community to bring the case.

Adrian Peterson, not spanking, it's assault. He's indicted. It's going to stick.

What's the penalty for the first time you do something like what he did? Probation.

Is the problem us in society and we're just blaming the NFL for what we are in general?

REED: You know, funny thing is George and I had the conversation in the green room before we came on. We talked about when you see incidents, the PR fallout is really that people start to hit NFL, people start to hit sports. People talk about how hyper masculine and how overly aggressive it is.

These are not problems that are endemic only to the NFL. These are problems that we have in the larger society that often we don't like to have very honest and open conversations about until they happen to somebody else -- somebody who's high profile, an athlete, somebody that gives the opportunity to point the finger away from ourself.

This is the conversation, domestic violence, abuse, all of those things we've got to after dress on a very serious level and honest level in society, broadly not just when it happens to athletes.

CUOMO: The penalty to Adrian Peterson is harsher than what the law will allow. He'll get probation, the law says you can spank your kid. The only person you can legally hit except in self-defense is a child. And that's something society has to deal with. But we haven't yet, Mr. Martin.