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Possible Scenarios for Spread of Ebola Examined; Interview with NIH's Dr. Anthony Fauci; Protests in St. Louis Held against Police Brutality; ISIS Continues Advance in Iraq; What is the Risk of Ebola in Pets?

Aired October 13, 2014 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: So, what exactly the breach in protocol was here? They don't know, but it was something at some point, infected bodily fluid touched her skin, got on. So, whether it was taking off the gown at some point, whether it was touching a part of her body with a glove, we don't know and there is a chance that we may never know exactly, because you really have to recreate your movements over that time period. But, that's what they're thinking.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: OK. Dr. Fauci, the CDC Director Tom Frieden suggested the Texas Presbyterian hospital that treated Mr. Duncan did two high risk procedures that may have exposed workers to the virus. Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. THOMAS FREIDEN, DIRECTOR, CDC: The two areas we will be looking particularly closely is the performance of kidney dialysis and respiratory intubation. Both of those procedures may spread contaminated materials and are considered high risk procedures. They were undertaken on the index patient as a desperate measure to try to save his life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Intubation and dialysis. Dr. Fauci, what do you think about that theory?

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Well, I think that's an important thing to consider, because if you have someone who is very, very far advanced, and sometimes we are in situations where a patient is not salvable but you want to put out all the stops. When there is absolutely no risk to a health care worker for doing that at that extreme late stage in an illness, then we often make the choice of, well, why don't we just go ahead and do it.

But now when you enter into the factor, and this is what the CDC is trying to find out -- they are down there now to really investigate this intensively -- is that if those kind of procedures heightened greatly the risk of a health care worker getting a deadly disease, that has to at least be put on the table to consider that you might want to take a look at the things you don't want to do when someone is so far advanced that it's unlikely you will save them. There are obviously ethical considerations in there, and I'm sure there will be getting ethical consultation on that.

CAMEROTA: Sanjay, they were trying to pull out all the stops, they say, to try to save his life.

FAUCI: Exactly.

CAMEROTA: Go ahead, Sanjay.

GUPTA: It's a way that things often progress if hospitals. You know, we heard subsequently that Mr. Duncan had what is known as a do not resuscitate order, which basically means do not used more advanced live-saving procedures such as applying electricity to the heart, things like that. So I don't know how this fit into all that.

But yes, the patient came in, you know, with his illness and they wanted to do everything they could to try to save him.

CAMEROTA: Sanjay, let me play you the plea from the National Nurses' Association who say that nurses and health care workers are not getting adequate training and protection. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are seeing caregivers who are not adequately trained are being blamed. And we are hearing that they have not followed proper protocol when we have been asking our hospitals throughout the country to provide us with training that allows us to ask the questions, with training about how to put on the proper and optimal level of personal protection equipment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Sanjay, why aren't they getting the training they say they need?

GUPTA: There is concerning, obviously. Let me give you a little context. Since 1976 there have been Ebola outbreaks in Africa. And Doctors without Borders and other organizations have been taking care of patients there, doctors, nurses. And up until this year, really, there had never been a transmission from a patient to one of these doctors. So we know in central Africa, West Africa, they were able to implement the protocols.

And I don't know, maybe can I ask Dr. Fauci the same question. When I went to medical school and you went to medical school, Dr. Fauci, we learned infectious disease protocols. And then we hear about Ebola. It's not respiratory, you don't have to worry about that part of it. It's just droplets protocol. What are we missing? That's a fairly straight forward thing, whether it's Ebola or something else. What do you think is happening?

FAUCI: Well, I think what is happening is that what the nurse pointed out, I had a back and forth with her last night on the air, and it is an important point. You really need to get trained very, very well t. The reason why Doctors without Borders have such an extraordinarily positive track record is they just get really, really good at it. The protocol, if you follow, it's been proven through Doctors without Borders that it works.

The issue of breach of protocol, we've got to be really careful that that word "breach" doesn't imply that the nurses did something wrong. They are amazingly courageous to do what they are doing. So a breach in protocol may be that the protocol is fine. They were not trained properly to be able to implement the protocol.

CAMEROTA: Right.

FAUCI: So we've got to totally get away from that.

CAMEROTA: That's such a good point, Dr. Fauci, because it does sounds like they're blaming the victim. That's what the nurses are reacting to. Sanjay, I know you have another question.

GUPTA: Are we at the point now where, on the one hand, Dr. Fauci, we are talking about moving patients to one of these centers around the country that takes care of these patients. I mean, is the a situation now where more specialists need to go to these other hospitals? Do we need Doctors without Borders sort of program now going to hospitals in the United States where Ebola patients are arriving?

CAMEROTA: Dr. Fauci?

FAUCI: Yes, Sanjay, I think that is certainly something to be put under serious consideration. But you have to remember, we still need to train people about what to do when someone goes to the emergency door, because people are not going to voluntarily pick out one of four or five hospitals to go to. So the idea of ultimately getting them to a place that really knows how to take care of patients should be seriously considered. Whether or not the logistics of moving --

CAMEROTA: But Dr. Fauci, why are we still considering this? Why isn't this being done? It's here. Why isn't the training happening today?

FAUCI: Well, let me finish and I'll explain. It is not easy to transport a patient. So what I'm saying is that every single hospital should be able to have the training to foe what to do when someone walks in the door. What you ultimately do to take care of them over a week or two weeks should be serious consideration.

The CDC is evaluating the intensity with what they are training. In fact Dr. Frieden yesterday in his press conference made it very, very clear that they are going to intensify the training in several important ways as opposed to assuming that hospitals are going to be aggressive if training their staff. The CDC is going to be much more aggressive in proactively putting forth the principles of how they should be trained, specifically in what Sanjay and others have said, putting on and taking off the PPE as opposed to assuming that if they read something on a website that they are going to do it right. There really has to be a confirmation of training. CAMEROTA: That makes a lot of sense and it sounds like it is time to do that. Sanjay Gupta, Dr. Anthony Fauci, thanks so much for all the information, really helpful. Let's go back to Chris.

GUPTA: Good to be with you.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking overnight, the weekend of resistant in St. Louis put the community on edge again. Protests against the shooting deaths of unarmed teen Michael Brown and armed 18-year-old Vonderrit Myers ranged from marches to confrontations. Over 1,000 protesters took to the streets overnight. Early Sunday morning, police in riot gear moved in at one point, arresting 17 people who were staging a sit-in at a gas station. Let's get to Sara Sidner. She's in St. Louis right now. Sara, what's the latest?

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We are on the campus of St. Louis University where will is a sit-in here. But on this night there were about 1,000 to 1,500 people who marched through the city of St. Louis, and they made it here to this particular area and decided they were going to stay overnight. Most of the crowds have gone home. But it was a peaceful march, and there was a concerted effort by the protesters and by the protest leaders to make sure it stayed peaceful.

Yes, there were police out in their riot gear, but they did not come into contact with these protestors. The protestors making it here have decided to stay here. This is all, though, because of an issue that people wanted to put forward to the American public. And they are saying they are tired, for example, of police brutality. They have been chanting things like "Black lives matter." And that's what we've been seeing from the protestors.

They are here also because of what happened on August 9th to Michael Brown. There are witnesses saying Michael Brown had his hands up and that the police officer Darren Wilson shot him while he had his hands up. That has caused quite consternation here. It has caused people to say something has to change. And that is exactly what they're hoping to do. They're hoping to see a change in the relationship between the black community and the police department.

When it comes to the other young man that was killed, the 18-year-old, same as Michael Brown, Vonderrit Myers, police say he actually had a gun and fired at them. The protestors, though, don't believe what they're hearing. And so there is this huge gulf of mistrust between the black community and the police department. And that is what they say needs to be worked on, and that's the story from here right now. We are expecting more protests into Monday. There is another scheduled event in the morning. Chris?

CUOMO: Sara, the problem is obvious, the solution not so much. We'll stay on it. Thank you for being there for us. Michaela?

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: All right, lots of headlines to look at this morning. Good morning, everyone.

ISIS on the march in Iraq and Syria. Despite U.S. led airstrikes militants are said to be in control 80 percent of Iraq's Anbar province. Iraq's military has given up a key base there. Joint Chief Chairman General Martin Dempsey says Apache helicopters were needed to help Iraqi forces beat back ISIS fighters who are only about 15 miles or so from the Baghdad airport.

Meanwhile, if Syria, the town of Kobani near the border with Turkey could soon fall to ISIS. So far, though, Kurdish troops have managed to hold them off.

Back here a sad new development in the Enterovirus fight, a second child has now died. This is little one Madeline Reed, just 21 months old, died at Children's Hospital in Detroit. Last week New Jersey's medical examiner confirmed that a four-year-old boy had died from the virus. According to the CDC this strain of Enterovirus has sickened nearly 700 people in 46 states.

Two New Hampshire toddlers are in the hospital after the bounce house they were playing in went airborne. Police say the little boy, who were two and three, snuck into the structure, became trapped as it flew 30 feet in the air. It was swept away by wind. The two-year- old, we are told, is in critical condition. Police say the bounce house was inflated to dry out following a rain storm. It was not opened for use. Certainly our thoughts and prayers go to those families.

Breaking news, Jean Tirole has won the Nobel Prize for economics. It is for his analysis of market power and regulations. The professor at the University of Toulous in France.

And, yes, check this out. Work it, a 14-year-old seizing the moment live on television in Las Vegas going full out diva. Check him out. Working it, owning it. He has moves, to, talking a little of a pout, a throwback. Pure gold. This apparently went down, one of the local stations there was covering the opening of a brand-new shopping center in Vegas and this video has gone viral. Making eye contact, working it. It's fantastic. Fabulous.

CAMEROTA: There is a lot of that that goes on.

PEREIRA: Can you make that happen? Roll the cameras one day when that happens. A lot of pouting.

CUOMO: He had a good head of hair and an interesting do.

CAMEROTA: I liked it.

CUOMO: I don't know if I feel about it.

CAMEROTA: Think about it. You have two more hours.

CUOMO: Thank you very much.

CAMEROTA: The concern about the spread of Ebola extending to our pet. The Dallas nurse who was just infected has a dog, and you'll remember the nurse in Spain also had a dog who ended up being put down by authorities. So can pets spread the disease? We will get those answers. CUOMO: Republicans piling on the criticism of the president's

response to ISIS, a new tactic to sway midterms to be sure. But what are they planning to do about the problem with ISIS? We have a political panel weighing in ahead. I'll tell you what I don't like.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: As a nurse in Dallas battles the Ebola virus, authorities have discovered she has a dog. Now on this one, they plan on keeping the dog alive. Remember, this comes not even a week after a dog belonging to a nurse with the Ebola in Spain pictured there, named Excalibur, was put down. The question is what's the right move? Who reacted the right way? Overreacted, underreacted? What's the real risk?

Joining us this morning is David Sanders. He's an associate professor of biological sciences at Purdue University and has a quality fedora on. Moving on from that, what is the bottom line real deal about pets and this virus?

DAVID SANDERS, ASSOC. PROFESSOR OF BIOLOGICAL SCIENCES, PURDUE UNIVERSITY: So we know dogs can be infected by Ebola virus, but they don't seem to have the same symptoms that humans, primates, have.

CUOMO: Can they give it to the owner or someone else?

SANDERS: OK, we really don't know that answer. So it wouldn't be transmitted the same way because they don't have the same symptoms. But we do know that, for example, fruit bats are very likely to be the natural host of Ebola and they also don't have symptoms. This isn't rare. Most of the viruses that we know don't harm their natural hosts, but they can hop from those natural hosts to other organisms.

CUOMO: So have fruit bats given Ebola to humans? I guess the answer has to be yes, otherwise how did we get it?

SANDERS: So there are two possibilities. One is that there was a direct transmission from fruit bats to humans. The other is that there was an intermediary of a non-human primate, and that the virus entered into humans in the bush meat (ph) trade.

CUOMO: Now, fruit bats, you're not going to a lot of pushback on what you do to a fruit bat that you find with Ebola, I would suggest. But a dog, now we're going to have serious sensitivity. So what do we know about what we can do with a dog with the virus?

SANDERS: We actually know relatively little.

CUOMO: Well, you can test for it and know if it has it.

SANDERS: We can test for it, but we really don't understand the course of the viral propagation in the dogs. It really hasn't been studied --

CUOMO: Have we ever cured a dog of Ebola?

SANDERS: We haven't cured any organism of Ebola. We don't have a cure for Ebola.

CUOMO: Well, but we allow -- we have, through treatments, an ability to get human beings through it. Have we ever gotten a dog or pet or an animal through it?

SANDERS: Right. Well, the dog doesn't actually have mortality because of the virus.

CUOMO: So it's not about the dogs dying or healing the dog.

SANDERS: That's right.

CUOMO: It's about deciding whether or not this dog is too great a risk to humans?

SANDERS: That's correct.

CUOMO: For it to continue to exist.

SANDERS: That's correct.

CUOMO: So what do you do?

SANDERS: My opinion is observation, testing and quarantining.

CUOMO: If it has it.

SANDERS: Right.

CUOMO: Now what?

SANDERS: So that's a good question. And that's a decision that health authorities need to make at the beginning. Right? They shouldn't just say, well, we're going to keep it alive and hope for the best. They have to make some sort of a decision. I would argue that it needs to be quarantined.

CUOMO: But why? If you can't rid it of the virus, what good does quarantining it do?

SANDERS: That's a good question. And it depends upon how long the virus persists in the dog. So the type of virus that Ebola is is called an RNA virus, and RNA viruses don't intend to persist in their hosts. So they come and go.

CUOMO: So it's not something they carry all the time.

SANDERS: They are not likely to carry it for the rest of their lives.

CUOMO: All right, it's not like a herpes situation.

SANDERS: Exactly. Exactly right.

CUOMO: All right, I don't know why I brought that up as an example.

SANDERS: Herpes is a great example because it's a DNA virus, and if a DNA virus infects --

CUOMO: So it stays in you --

SANDERS: That's right.

CUOMO: Occasionally manifests, can be passed on. Ebola is not like that.

SANDERS: That's correct.

CUOMO: Spain killing the dog, right move, wrong move? Better safe than sorry?

SANDERS: I can't make that judgment.

CUOMO: You must.

SANDERS: I cannot make that judgment. They decided that the risk was there and that they were concerned about it. Again, it depends upon what sort of resources you want to put into monitoring and quarantining.

CUOMO: Any idea how long it lives in the dog or the host pet?

SANDERS: We really don't know those sorts of things because dogs haven't been extensively studied as a host for Ebola. I mean, one of the things --

CUOMO: Even (INAUDIBLE). Is anybody looking into it?

SANDERS: Well, not right now. One of the things we had to think about Ebola, we really don't even know a lot in humans. We know more in humans than we do in dogs. But the number of cases that we've had is really not that large in the scheme of things, compared to --

CUOMO: But we have all the big shots --

SANDERS: -- our experience with (INAUDIBLE) or our experience with herpes, for example.

CUOMO: Right, but we have Fauci and we have Dr. Frieden -- Fauci from NIH, Frieden from CDC -- saying we know how you get Ebola. We know how it is transmitted. We know what the risk is. So calm down. You're saying we don't know? Now I'm not so calm.

SANDERS: All of what you said is true. We -- that's what they're saying. And we do know enough to know at this point that it's transmitted by bodily fluids and that we have to come in close contact with the patient. I mean, that's what we do know now and so we should be calm.

The -- again we have to think about these in a quantitative sense. How many cases are we talking about compared to how many cases of influenza there are in this country, for example, and how many people die from that? So it's important to be prepared. Panicking over this is just the inappropriate response? CUOMO: Not to be inhumane and I mean that as a double entendre here,

but when Americans hear that their pets are at risk of being put down, of something that they themselves are survived, for whatever reason, they're going to be very upset about it.

SANDERS: I understand that.

CUOMO: So they're watching what happens with this dog and they want to know. What do you do around pets? Last word on it. What do we do?

SANDERS: Observation.

CUOMO: Just watch?

SANDERS: And, again, if there is a case where a pet has been exposed to Ebola, you really need to be paying attention to that.

CUOMO: And they can test this dog. They'll know whether they have it.

SANDERS: Yes, that's right.

CUOMO: And then it becomes this analysis how long does the virus stay in the animal?

SANDERS: That's right, and the nature of the quarantine.

CUOMO: Thank you very much. David Sanders, appreciate it. It's a grey area. We need as much information as we can get.

SANDERS: I agree.

CUOMO: All right. Alisyn, over to you.

CAMEROTA: All right, Chris. Thanks so much. ISIS, Ebola -- President Obama has his hands full. But how will these crises affect the mid-term elections? Our political panel will tell us.

And ground zero of Ebola is Liberia, and American troops are already there to help. Hear why they say this is the most important fight of their lives.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: Welcome back to NEW DAY. Here's a look at your headlines at 26 minutes past the hour.

A nurse who treated a dying Ebola patient in Texas is now the first person to become infected by the virus within U.S. borders. Health officials now desperately trying to figure out just how this happened. The nurse has not been identified. However, we do know she was a member of the medical team that treated Liberian national Thomas Eric Duncan before he died of Ebola last week.

A fourth video released by ISIS of British hostage John Cantlie is raising questions of when it was taped. In the new posting, Cantlie talks about the videotaped murder of aid worker David Haines, which was posted a month ago, but he makes no reference to the beheading of another aid worker posted October 3rd. And he does not mention things that happened early last month, indicating the latest recording was made more than a month ago.

The remains of thousands of American soldiers killed in the Korean War are being moved due to what North Korea says are construction projects and flood damage. The U.S. suspended efforts to recover war remains in a dispute over Pyongyang's plan to launch a long range rocket in 2012. Some 8,000 U.S. service members are listed as missing from the Korean conflict that lasted of course from 1950 to 1953.

Over 150,000 people have been told to evacuate after a downgraded Typhoon Vongfong slammed into southern Japan. That storm battered Okinawa, injuring dozens. Train service and flights are reportedly disrupted in the southern Japanese island of Kyushu. The storm system is still dangerous. Right now, it is heading towards Tokyo.

Lifeguards had to scramble to rescue three swimmers who jumped off some cliff then were pummeled by huge waves. This all happened in San Diego. They ended up getting swept into a cove there, an area called Sunset Cliffs. The trio had to be hoisted, as you saw there, up by lifeguards using a rescue rig, putting them in jeopardy as well. One of those swimmers said to be in shock. Lifeguards say they jumped illegally, but they're not going to be cited because they actually weren't caught in the act. Thankfully, they all are expected to be OK. One of them almost drowned. Really frightening moments there and putting rescuers at risk there.

CAMEROTA: I think we have evidence that they jumped in.

Yes, but because they didn't -- right, I know.

PEREIRA: They didn't walk into this.

CAMEROTA: Thanks, Michaela.

CUOMO: All right, onto bigger wars that are being waged right now. The U.S. is really in two big wars, if you think about it. You have the obvious one, ISIS. But then have you this one against Ebola. It may not be U.S. specific right now, but certainly what's going on overseas is big. And at the center of both fights, President Obama.

With three weeks to go until mid-terms, Republicans are all over him about his performance in both of these wars. The criticism -- will it stick, will it matter? Here to help us break it down, CNN political commentator, editor-in-chief of "The Daily Beast", Mr. John Avlon, and CNN political commentator and Republican consultant, Margaret Hoover.

Good to have you both here. Let's start with Ebola, shall we? So you have John McCain says we need a czar, he says, to deal with this. Do you think that's a good step? Do you believe that there's any real point of criticism here, Margaret Hoover, about what the U.S. is doing with Ebola? We seem to have everybody running around. MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, there are not a lot of places where a conservative is going to make the argument that you should have a stronger role for the federal government. But the point of the federal government is to secure the citizenry, to secure the population, and a pandemic outbreak, or the possibility of a pandemic, and frankly the possibility of panic, begs for strong leadership, a clear line of authority, and for Americans to know -- nurses to know what to do, doctors to know how to act, individual citizens to know how to handle this, and that it is handled.