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Another Nurse in U.S. Diagnosed with Ebola; U.S. Government Ebola Containment Protocols Discussed; Interview with Rep. Tim Murphy; Sean Kaufman Criticizes Original CDC Protocols

Aired October 17, 2014 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Chris. Well, here in Northeast Ohio at this hour, a dozen people are quarantined because of contact with nurse Amber Vinson, and there is this. Health officials are also looking for anyone else who might have had contact with Vinson during a three-hour visit to a bridal shop on Saturday. Health officials would like to talk with them.

And there is new information about fellow Ebola nurse, Nina Pham. We are hearing from her for the very first time.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDIOTTI: Overnight, the first critical care nurse to contract Ebola arriving at the National Institutes of Health clinical center in Maryland, 26-year-old Nina Pham, transferred from Texas health Presbyterian in part because of concerns about the limited number of qualified people to care for her.

And for the first time, we're hearing from Pham while in isolation, the Texas hospital releasing this video of a doctor thanking her for taking care of the now-deceased Liberian, Thomas Duncan. This on the heels of a shocking revelation, that the second nurse to contract the virus may have been feeling ill since she left Dallas, flying to Cleveland last Friday.

DR. CHRIS BRADEN, CDC: We can't rule out the fact that she might have had the start of her illness on Friday.

CANDIOTTI: A federal official tells CNN 29-year-old Amber Vinson said she felt fatigue, muscle aches, and malaise while she was in Ohio and on the flight home. But Amber's uncle says it's not true.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She felt fine. She felt well until Tuesday morning.

CANDIOTTI: The CDC now expanding their outreach to all passengers on board both Frontier Airlines flights to and from Cleveland, and anyone with potential risk will be actively monitored. Vinson's family said she felt she put no one in danger and called a Texas health official who told her the CDC said it was OK to fly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If in hindsight someone decides there should have been flight restrictions, that's fine. But to misrepresent and to say restrictions were in place when they actually weren't is inappropriate.

CANDIOTTI: It was while in Ohio for a bridesmaids fitting, according to Vinson's uncle, where she first learned fellow nurse Nina Pham tested positive for the deadly disease. The bridal shop owner says Vinson did not look sick at all.

ANNA YOUNKER, STORE OWNER: She was probably here probably about three hours, maybe. I had no idea that anything was wrong with her.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CANDIOTTI: And that store owner last night telling me that health department officials came to her home, Chris, because they wanted to do a role-playing scenario, asking the shop owner to show them exactly how she interacted with nurse Vinson, exactly what happened there. And the health department is offering to clean up the store if they decide that it's necessary. The shop is now closed, being closed by the shop's owner, only as a precaution. Chris?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: As you know, Susan, they're balancing trying to be safe with how the broader circle makes people even more fearful. So it's a very tricky situation. Thank you for the reporting, we'll check back with you.

Now, officials at Texas Health Presbyterian hospital say they are keeping close tabs on workers who came into contact with Thomas Eric Duncan. But even after two infected nurses were transferred for specialized treatment, one of their colleagues is blasting those same hospital administrators. So let's get to CNN's Elizabeth Cohen following developments from Dallas. Elizabeth, competence and confidence go together, and questioning what the management says is going to be part of this, and we're certainly hearing it from this nurse.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this nurse is certainly telling us there were problems inside this hospital, that they didn't have proper protocol, and even when nurses spoke up and said they didn't feel protected, that they weren't listened to. And at a Congress hearing yesterday, lawmakers grilled an executive here, and he admitted there was no training for -- to treat Ebola patients.

Now, in doing this transfer, the hospital said they did it for several reasons. They said it created an opportunity to prepare for what might come next. Now, they were vague about that, but certainly CDC director Tom Friedan has said don't be surprised if more hospital workers come down with Ebola.

And Chris, you know, another reason why they might have wanted to transfer these patients out, a CDC doctor who works inside this hospital tells me the hospital is two-thirds empty. Financially that is a huge hit. I'm sure that the hospital wants things to go back to normal. They want people to stop being scared to come here to be treated for other diseases. Chris?

CUOMO: All right, they have to be honest about what they did there so they can get better, and hopefully hospitals around the country, Elizabeth, are learning from the mistakes that were made. Thank you for the reporting. Alisyn?

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Let's go to Washington, D.C. President Obama reconsidering his stance on an Ebola czar, saying it could make sense. He's also authorizing deployment for the National Guard to West Africa. But he is not agreeing to a travel ban despite growing calls from lawmakers, including a Thursday's tense hearing on Capitol Hill. CNN's senior Washington correspondent Joe Johns is live for us with the latest developments. Good morning, Joe.

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Alisyn. You know, the president has been not been able to get his choice for surgeon general through the confirmation process on Capitol Hill. That's been cited by some as a reason why he might want to appoint a czar even though the surgeon-general typically has been seen as more of a figurehead position. Nonetheless, the president now saying he thinks it might be a good idea to get somebody in there to check all the boxes. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, (D) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It may make sense for us to have one person in part just so that after this initial surge of activity we can have a more regular process just to make sure that we're crossing all the t's and dotting all the i's.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNS: Now, on the issue of a travel ban on people coming here from the hot zone, the president says he is not philosophically opposed to that idea. However, he thinks the procedures already in place for screening of people coming to this country from there might be better. There have been some who have expressed the position that those coming from the hot zone might actually try to go underground to avoid detection in the event they're actually was a travel ban.

One more note, the president has now signed an executive order allowing as many as 4,000 reservists to travel to West Africa to try to deal with the crisis. There's no timetable on that. Nonetheless, it gives the Pentagon the option and makes it a possibility for them to start planning for the future when they do send some or all of those people to Africa. Back to you.

CUOMO: All right, Joe, good to know.

CAMEROTA: That's for you, Chris.

CUOMO: Sorry, Alisyn, I was so moved by what he was saying. It's good to know that they're doing more on the African side of this, obviously, Alisyn. The question is what are we going to be doing on the U.S. side? They don't seem as sure of a plan there.

Let's bring in Congressman Tim Murphy. He's a Republican from Pennsylvania and the chairman of the House subcommittee that held Thursday's hearing on Ebola. And let's also bring in chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta from the CNN Center in Atlanta simply because Sanjay always is helpful. So it's good to have both of you. Congressman, let me start with you, a couple of questions quickly.

You beat up on the management of the hospital yesterday. They probably deserved it. It made for good theater. But it's also as we see in the hearings, often more heat than light. What did you learn yesterday and what are you going to do with that knowledge?

REP. TIM MURPHY, (R) PENNSYLVANIA: Well, actually for the hospital administrator, I think it was helpful that he said, look, there was some mistakes being made, and I didn't hear that same thing from the CDC and other federal agencies. I think there are mistakes being made. I don't agree with the issue of travel restrictions would cause people to necessarily go underground because that's saying people would be deceptive. And the issue is right now I think we're prone to people being deceptive, perhaps being deceptive to get into this country.

Secondly, I don't think the screening taking place right now is going to work on all levels. Someone could take an analgesic or something for their temperature for a while. They've and change the threshold body temperature that will be significant. Also, Mr. Duncan's temperature was below that line, as was the nurse. So I still think with regard to quarantines, restricting travel for people who have been exposed to someone with Ebola, I didn't hear the CDC being willing to move on that. Governors are in states where now people are traveling to. But I love it if the CDC would do more of those important steps.

CUOMO: All right, so the question then becomes, what do you want done? The governors are in charge. This is complicated so we ignore it a lot. But for the purpose of this conversation, you know the CDC doesn't have big teeth when it comes to telling states what to do. That's changed over time. States are much more in control. But they're also desperate for guidance on this because they're afraid of being the next Texas. So what specifically would you recommend be done by the CDC, by the White House? What are your ideas, congressman?

MURPHY: Well, the travel ban quarantines, we asked the CDC repeatedly and I talked with Dr. Friedan about this. Tell us what other authority you need, Congress needs to grant you. Tell us if there's any other advance of funds we can move forward. What authority does the Health and Human Services secretary now have to move funds where they need to move? Let's speed up the advancement of vaccines and other treatments for Ebola so it doesn't get caught up in the multi- year process as we go through.

So we laid out eight different proposals there for CDC to act on. And I think that those are things that the president can do by executive order, secretaries can do by executive order, and if they need to call Congress back to do it, let's do it.

CUOMO: All right, now, if the president does it, don't sue him over it, congressman, because we know what happened last time he started using his executive authority too often for you guys.

All right, so let's take those suggestions, Sanjay and put them to you. Do you like what you're hearing from the congressman? Do you think they will help?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, certainly I think the idea of getting a vaccine sort of fast-tracked in some way. There's a scientific option maybe that would be on the table that would be helpful in West Africa and maybe eventually helpful to health care workers here as well.

The travel ban issue is something that's come up a lot obviously. And I know it's gained some momentum. I heard a lot of those questions. There are a couple of concerns, there's real concerns, and the congressman was talking about some of these things. We've got a map. Let me put up the map for a second here. We talk about West Africa, we talk about the areas. If somebody was in one of those countries and was worried that they had suffered an exposure to Ebola, even if you had a travel ban, you worry that they could go to another country by land, as you can see several of those countries there. And then perhaps travel somewhere else around the world, including the United States. I don't know that that travel ban would prevent that from happening.

And the concern is those people then wouldn't be tracked. They're no longer somebody coming from an infected country. They may not get the appropriate screening and tracking once they get to the United States.

But I think more to the point, and again the congressman touched on this, you know, it would impact the amount of help getting into that area. You know, I've seen this firsthand. I've worked with these aid organizations. We know the military can get in. But the doctors actually taking care of patients, it's going to be more challenging. You tell them they can go in, but they can't get out? These people work in shifts of a few weeks at a time. It would be really, really challenging to get them the mobility. And as a result, the problem would start to get worse, I think, in West Africa.

Medically, here would be an analogy. It would be like somebody who is having a heart attack, we're going to give them a lot of pain medication so their left arm pain may go away, but we're not taking care of the heart problem itself. Eventually that's going to cause a body-wide problem. The body in this case is the world.

CUOMO: All right, so, Sanjay, the congressman is shaking his head. We've discussed this before. I want to hear your response, but also, remember, you've said in the past congressman, we would let in the aid workers. We would just restrict other travelers. But Sanjay's point is if you make it tough to get in it becomes tough for everyone, no matter what your intentions are. So what's your response?

MURPHY: We could have other flights authorized to help people move in and out. The president is sending thousands of soldiers in. We can also authorize health workers whether they're coming from nongovernment agencies, such as Samaritan's Purse or Doctors without Borders. We could do those things. I think to put up these false barriers only adds to the fear here. We can do these things. We're the United States of America. We can make those things happen.

Another thing we need, however, is there's only two airplanes capable of handling one person at a time to bring people over here. And that's another one of my recommendations. We need to authorize, equip and pay for more planes to do those things as well.

Look, America is worried about this. Most countries now in Africa have travel bans. Caribbean countries now having travel bans. Countries around the world are developing this. We can say that if you're an American citizen, someone coming over here, you're going to be quarantined for a while when you come back home if you've been exposed to West African countries or near Ebola. We can do some other screening than just the quick fever check, which I think is unreliable. But we ought to be doing more here than just saying we can't track people around the world so let's give up on that. I don't buy that.

CUOMO: There's definitely some issues out there that we have to figure out. There's some changes that have to be made. There's some difference of opinion there. That's for sure. We got to leave the conversation there for right now. But also when we pick it up again, there are blood tests that can be done that cut down on this 21-day period. We don't hear about them being done enough. There's a lot of technology out there to do screening. We're not hearing about it being used, even though the NIH paid for the research for a lot of it.

But thank you very much, Congressman Murphy, for giving us some ideas and holding people accountable, and Dr. Sanjay Gupta, always a pleasure to benefit from your insight. Michaela?

GUPTA: Thank you.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Chris, thanks so much. It's 13 minutes past the hour. Here's a look at your headlines. Just in to CNN, the Syrian observatory for human rights says ISIS has gained control of three war planes and that former Iraqi military officials are training ISIS members to fly them. Those planes were reportedly seized from Syrian military airports. We know the president will be holding a closed-door meeting this afternoon to discuss ISIS wth the vice president and his National Security Council.

The youngest son of Vice President Joe Biden says he is embarrassed by his actions after being discharged from the Navy back in February for testing positive for cocaine. The 44-year-old Hunter Biden says he respects the Navy's decision but is not addressing the drug allegations. Biden is now working as a managing partner at an investment firm.

Meanwhile, Turkey's lack of action against ISIS might have cost them an important place at the United Nations, a seat on the powerful Security Council. Turkey campaigned hard with the General Assembly member states but came up short in the vote to fill one of the five open spots. New Zealand, Spain, Angola, Venezuela, and Malaysia were selected. They will serve through 2016.

Imagine holding your next fundraiser here, the Sistine Chapel. The Vatican holding its first outside fundraising event there Saturday, Chris, sponsored by Porsche. It includes an after-hours concert inside the chapel and dinner in the Vatican museums. A mere $6400 to attend, with the money going to support Pope Francis' charities.

But can you imagine how beautiful that would be, an evening event there? Lovely.

CAMEROTA: It sounds wonderful.

PEREIRA: Doesn't it?

CAMEROTA: I want to go right now.

PEREIRA: I know.

CAMEROTA: It sounds great. Let's do that.

CUOMO: Yes, you go get on a plane right now.

CAMEROTA: Field trip!

All right, meanwhile, the CDC is under fire this morning. Next, we'll talk to someone on the front lines of the Ebola outbreak, who calls the CDC guidelines, quote, "irresponsible and dead wrong".

CUOMO: That's not good.

President Obama says a travel ban is not the way to go. But he is considering appointing an Ebola czar. Is that the fix? We have a political perspective ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: He's Sean Kaufman, he is training the health care workers on the front lines in Liberia. Sean, how are you?

SEAN KAUFMAN, OVERSAW INFECTON CONTROL AT EMORY UNIVERSITY (via telephone): I'm doing great. How are you doing this morning?

CAMEROTA: We're doing well. Tell us what the situation is in Liberia this morning?

KAUFMAN: You know, I think today, you know, we're continuing to face the serious challenges of any infectious disease, where there's an outbreak. You know, signs of denial that it even exists and fear, you know, hiding it and being afraid that you actually are sick with it, coming to terms with it. And then being careful not to label people who are sick and stigmatizing them because if these are things that you do, it's just going to suppress and push the disease down further. So it's going to hide it, which will put people at greater risk.

CAMEROTA: That makes perfect sense. You are training the health care workers there in Liberia. Do you follow CDC guidelines there or do you go further?

KAUFMAN: Oh, absolutely not. In fact. I continue to be very disappointed in how CDC has not only talked about personal protective equipment, but the processes that they're using and in removing the personal protective equipment, especially in recommending personal protective equipment in clinical situations with patients who are sick with Ebola.

CAMEROTA: You have been very outspoken. You told "The New York Times" quote, "The earlier CDC guidelines were absolutely irresponsible and dead wrong." What was the problem with them?

KAUFMAN: Well, I think there were several problems. Number one, the quantity of PPE was way off. Meaning when you have somebody who is sick and can produce large quantity of diarrhea and vomiting in an instant and bleeding out, as some patients with Ebola do in the later stages of the disease, it's not enough PPE.

And then when you look even closer, they have you in essence removing your gloves first. And if everyone were to look at their fingers around their fingernails, there are tears and cuts around cuticles. And when you have unprotected hands taking off dirty gowns and dirty eye protection, it makes absolutely no sense and it's completely opposite to what we would be recommending in a high- containment lab facility.

CAMEROTA: Sean, how could the CDC not know that?

KAUFMAN: Well, I think CDC does. I think this is an indicator of a cultural issue within CDC. Because instead of looking at it as a collective group, because I know for a fact, people that I have trained myself at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, I know for a fact there are people who work in high-containment labs that would look at this protocol and be just shocked.

And so I think it's an indicator that there are clinicians writing protocols for very, very serious contaminant issues, and CDC needs to come together at the table and talk about this and produce a better process for doffing personal protective equipment.

CAMEROTA: We should tell the viewers right now that the reason you know so much about this is that you were on the CDC's response team during the anthrax attacks and the SARS outbreak. You also oversaw the treatment of the two Americans who recovered from Ebola, Dr. Kent Brantly and Nancy Whitebol. So you know all about how this should work.

So are you saying, in terms of the culture at the CDC, that clinicians, who are sort of academic and removed from the front lines, are writing the protocol, rather than the people like you, who see how it works?

KAUFMAN: Well, I think that -- you know, to clarify, I can't take the credit for treating Nancy and Kent. I was really there to protect the nurses and the doctors and making sure they were doing what they needed to do.

But, you know, the one thing that really frustrates me is that I think leaders need to stop talking and start listening at this point. And what I mean by that is I don't care if you are a general, or if you are an ambassador, or if you are the president, with all due respect, or if you're the director of the CDC. Until a nurse who is the front line of health care, says that they are comfortable with the PPE guidelines that CDC is recommending, I will again continue to say that CDC is not doing enough.

These nurses work with patients; they're on the front line of this outbreak. And they have the right to feel protected and safe when doing so. And they know that a patient at a moment's notice could produce high quantity of fluids that would put them and others at risk. So, again, I do not see a nurse coming to me today saying I feel comfortable with what the CDC is recommending.

CAMEROTA: So very quickly, Sean, you're saying until the nurses feel protected at places like Dallas Presbyterian, they should refuse to treat any incoming possible Ebola patient?

KAUFMAN: No, I feel that it is irresponsible to not train the workforce. So a nurse has the right, and as do doctors, have the right to say this is something we are unprepared for. And until we have the ability to prepare for it, we're at risk. That is clearly evident in the Texas case.

CAMEROTA: You're right, and that is what the nurses are actually coming forward and saying now this morning. Sean Kaufman, thanks for all the good work you're doing and for taking time for us. It's great to talk to you this morning.

KAUFMAN: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Chris, what's coming up?

CUOMO: I'll tell you, what's amazing is these health care workers are so dedicated to doing such a dangerous job, even though they feel they're not getting the training and protection they need.

CAMEROTA: Absolutely.

CUOMO: Special people. And in terms of what the fix is, how about an Ebola czar? Some people are talking about it, Republicans and Democrats. The Obama administration at first said no, we don't know. But now they're thinking maybe this is the way to go. Is there a better idea? How big a deal is this going to be in the elections coming up, by the way? We have a political panel debating it.

CAMEROTA: I look forward to that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: Almost half-past the hour, here's a look at the headlines.

Breaking overnight, Hong Kong police armed with wire cutters and riot shields tore down the site occupied by pro-democracy demonstrators. Our CNN team on the ground said most protesters didn't put up a fight. Now, at this point, it is unclear if this all will affect talks on long-term reforms, which are set to take place next week.

A recall from Chrysler to tell you about this morning -- 900,000 vehicles, most in the U.S., are affected. Certain Dodge, Jeep and Chrysler sedans dating back to 2011 could have issues with the alternators; that could cause those vehicles to crash. And some Jeep Wranglers from 2011-2013, they have a problem with heated power mirrors that could cause a fire. So far, one accident has been reported. We'll keep an eye on that for you.

Federal investigators will be on the scene this morning of a train wreck in the Ozark Mountains in Arkansas. A sight-seeing train full of passengers collided head-on with a freight train Thursday about 20 miles from Fayetteville. 44 total injuries were reported, five of them serious. We'll continue to monitor that situation.