Return to Transcripts main page

New Day

Former Prosecutor Wanted to Arrest Cosby; Iran Nuclear Talks Enter Final Phase; Why Do Women Marry Men Behind Bars?

Aired November 19, 2014 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: It's 7:30 on the nose. Let's look at the headlines. The city of Buffalo is buried under 6 feet of snow this morning. Look at it, five people have died. The National Guard has been called in. A 100-mile stretch of the New York state thruway has been closed down.

The National Weather Service says the all-time record for snowfall in a 24-hour period is 76 inches in the U.S., and that mark may have been shattered by this storm. Indra tells us, there's more to come.

Israel has promised harsh retaliation for a deadly attack on a Jerusalem synagogue and are demolishing the homes of the two Palestinian attackers. This appears to be a first step.

A fifth victim in a synagogue attack, an Israeli police officer has now died from his wounds. Four rabbis were killed when the two assailants broke in, wielding meat cleavers, knives and a gun.

New details about the looming immigration fight between congressional Republicans and our president. A senior House Republican floated a plan that essentially would allow lawmakers to pass a spending bill next month. But then allow them to go back later and strip out any money allocated for President Obama's immigration plan.

An update for you on comedian, Tracy Morgan, he is still struggling nearly six months after that deadly car accident. His attorney says the actor suffered a serious brain injury in the crash on the New Jersey turnpike.

That attorney says he may never again be the Tracy Morgan he once was. Morgan has since filed a lawsuit against Walmart after a truck driver crashed into his vehicle, critically injuring him, killing another passenger, a fellow comedian. We brought you the news here. It's disturbing to hear that he's going to be dealing with this for some time -- Chris.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: It's really terrible news. Let's hope he makes the recovery. There's another story that we're following. Two more women have come forward with allegations of sexual assault by Bill Cosby. One of them is former supermodel, Janice Dickinson.

Now doubts have been raised about some of these accounts because women didn't come forward at the time. But this isn't true in all cases. A local prosecutor had a shot at Cosby in 2005. He declined to file charges at that time and that case was eventually settled out of court.

The prosecutor is now saying he is disappointed that he wasn't able to arrest Mr. Cosby and he joins us now with his take on the situation. His name is Bruce Castor. He is the former Montgomery County prosecutor and now the Montgomery County commissioner.

Sir, thank you for joining us. Let's go back to 2005. The woman's name was Andrea Constan. She wound up suing civilly and settling the case. What was brought to you and what did you make of the allegations?

BRUCE CASTOR, MONTGOMERY COUNTY COMMISSIONER: Well, back then the desire on our part to move forward was pretty strong. We had a woman who but all outward appearances, was credible, had good job, had come to our county and had made these allegations that she had been sexually molested by Cosby.

The problem with the case was that she waited a year until she told police about it. She told the police about it in her native Canada, up in Ontario, I think. So the case comes to me a year old.

There are a number of problems that go along with a delay. We're used to seeing delays in reporting by children because it's a natural fear that children have of adults retaliating against them and what-not.

We usually don't see that with adults and it's not just the courtroom problem of why did it take so long and the reverse, you don't get the prompt complaint instruction that we prosecutors like to get.

But there's the additional problem that there's no corroboration. I had a theory that Cosby had drugged the woman, using something to make her sleepy and to make her defenseless or unable to recall what happened.

But because of the delay, I couldn't check her blood to see if there was any metabolites of that drug in her. I couldn't check urine to look for metabolites, even though time had gone by and it had gotten out of the blood.

A lot of people don't know, we can also check hair and fingernails for weeks to see if it had grown through that cycle. But when a year goes by, you don't have any of that opportunity for corroboration.

So further complicating facts are, you don't have, you don't have those pieces of information fresh in order to get a search warrant to look for things that are of value in Cosby's house. So it made the case very difficult.

CUOMO: So time was a killer. However, what about credibility? Did you think that this woman was telling you the truth? Did you think at the time, based on what you understood of the circumstances that Bill Cosby was guilty?

CASTOR: I thought that she was telling the truth. I didn't think there was enough evidence based on her statements alone to convict him beyond a reasonable doubt. So you know, I hate to parse words, but we lawyers do that, as you know. And did I think he probably did something inappropriate? Yes.

Did I think that I could prove beyond a reasonable doubt based on available credible and admissible evidence? No, I didn't and I worded my opinion that way.

CUOMO: You said when you talk about the situation you wished you could have arrested Mr. Cosby. What brought up those feelings in you?

CASTOR: Well, mine anybody who is involved in law enforcement, I was for decades -- you get a gut instinct about whether somebody is bad or did something bad. You get a gut instinct about whether somebody is telling you the truth and was a victim.

There's that sort of compassionate component, borne out of education of having been in the system for a long time and then there's the cold, logical component that has to be applied in deciding whether to arrest somebody.

The first one was satisfied. I thought that Cosby had done something that was inappropriate. Whether it was illegal in the sense that I could prove it beyond a reasonable doubt became the next question.

And I didn't have that last piece. I wanted something else. I had no corroborating evidence. I couldn't do a search warrant. I couldn't look for hairs, fibers or anything that would corroborate because of the time delay.

And I was given some information about other potential victims. But all of them were from far in the past and none of them had resulted in arrests. So I couldn't use any stretch of the imagination, what we call common scheme plan or design because there was nothing unique about it.

CUOMO: You're talking a lot, Mr. Castor, about making the case and I totally get that. You were the prosecutor. But in the investigatory phase, you can take some broad steps even if they don't get you to prosecution. Don't you think you had probable cause to bring them in and talk to them about it?

CASTOR: We did. We did bring them in and talk to them about it. We talked to him, we talked to her. You understand in Pennsylvania, the prosecutor can take over any investigation he or she wishes. And at that point, we had taken the case over and were partnered up with the local police. So we did conduct the interview.

CUOMO: What did you make of the Cosby in the interview?

CASTOR: I thought he was lying. I thought that he was evasive and I thought that those things would be of value if I had another piece to go forward with remember, the Corpus Delicti rule requires that we'd be able to prove a crime first before you are allowed to use any statements made by the defendant. CUOMO: Right, absolutely. He's not speaking about these allegations. We've never really heard anything other than legal denials. So it's very interesting to hear from someone who got a chance to sit across from him and ask him about a specific incident, how Cosby reacted in that. And you say you don't think he came across as credible. Why?

CASTOR: Let me back up a little bit, Chris. I didn't conduct interview personally because I didn't want to end up being a witness in the case, I was the prosecutor.

CUOMO: You had your assistants do it and you got to read the testimony of it. What did you think?

CASTOR: I thought that he was evasive. He was setting up the defense that she was there of her own volition and that nothing had happened. But that if anything had happened, now granted, this is ten years ago and I haven't read that statement in all that time, but he was setting up if anything had gone on, it was consensual.

But I didn't think that he was truthful about that. I was weighing the scales of justice, and which scales I could prove not necessarily what I could then say that he -- he said that was a lie. That of course is valuable, if you can prove the first part.

CUOMO: Right, I totally get the frustration that you're laying out in terms of the decisions you had to make. But again it's very interesting to hear from somebody who had any exposure to Bill Cosby's responses to the allegations about how he came across and why.

You're saying he gave you the even/if. Nothing happened and even if something did happen, it was all consensual. That's going to be interesting for people to hear.

CASTOR: Well, Chris, that's my recollection after all these years, until a couple of days ago, I never thought I would see this case again, which points to another interesting fact that I think we can take from this.

Back then, of course, we had the internet and I can read a newspaper accounts throughout the world on this case. But we didn't have like Twitter or Facebook or if we did, they were in their infancy and the whole world didn't learn about things instantaneously.

One of the problems that we see over and over again in sexual assault cases is women who are afraid to come forward. They think they won't be believed. They think that they're the only one this happened to.

And the fact that we have now, at least this case to show women that when it's proliferated out there, other people will come to back you up. It might help us in future cases.

Convince women to come forward and report even when celebrities are involved so that we can get the information and the corroborating evidence right when it happens.

CUOMO: And when they do come forward, they have to be treated the right way. Mr. Castor, thank you very much for your recollections on this, helpful, appreciate it.

CASTOR: Thank you, Chris.

CUOMO: Brooke.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, we know that negotiators, they are working to hammer out this nuclear deal with Iran as this deadline is quickly approaching. But will the country resist the tough restrictions on its nuclear program? We will take you live to Iran for the very latest there. Stay right here. You're watching NEW DAY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Welcome back to NEW DAY. We have Secretary of State John Kerry. We know that he is meeting with Saudi and French foreign ministers in Paris today over curbing Iran's nuclear ambitions.

But listen, time is of the essence, this deadline on a nuclear deal is looming. Western powers are still uncertain whether or not Iran will accept these tougher restrictions on its nuclear program.

But here's the thing, if a deal is signed, restrictive sanctions could be loosened. The question is will negotiators be able to sign a deal by next Monday. That's the deadline we are looking at.

Reza Sayah is our CNN international correspondent. He is live for us this morning from Tehran, Iran. So let's just begin with, you know, simple question -- where do the talks stand right now?

REZA SAYAH, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They are in the final stage. This is the final round, Brooke, but no outcome. No final agreement and we should point out that during these 12 months. These two sides have done a very effective job in keeping the talks secret.

So it's very unlikely that we're going to get any information about the final agreement until an official announcement is made. But all sides representatives from Iran and the P-5 plus one are in Vienna.

You know, the next five days, they have a shot at making history. Iran and Washington and the western powers have a real good opportunity to improve relations, normalize relations and drastically change the geopolitical complexion of the Middle East.

If there's a deal and if there is no deal, things will pretty much stay the same and the nuclear standoff will drag on. It all depends what happens in the next five days. A lot at stake, many people here in Iran eager to see what happens -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: I mean you mention of course that a lot of the discussions behind closed door, super-secret. What do we know as far as compromise, where is Iran willing to give?

SAYAH: Iran's position is they're prepared to make concessions. They're prepared to compromise if they get a fair deal in return. They argue that they've already made substantial concessions. They've abided by the terms of the interim deal for the past 12 months. They've agreed for now not to enrich uranium past that 5 percent mark. They've agreed to stop advancements in their heavy water facility in Iraq, and they've also agreed to increase inspections. You get the sense that they have room for wiggle room.

That they're willing to make more concessions, perhaps reduce the center of centrifuges, however, this is important, they point out that they're not desperate. That they're not going to sign a deal if any cause.

They believe it's their right to have a peaceful nuclear program based on international law. Like anyone else and they're not going to back down to unreasonable demands. Like any good deal, you have to give something substantial to get something in return.

We'll see if that happens. And another important point is, this deal has to be one with which both sides, President Barack Obama and President Hassan Rouhani can go back home and declare themselves a victor because if they don't, there's going to be a political price to pay.

So it's complicated, lots of moving parts, a lot at stake, we'll see what happens come Monday -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Top of mind for Secretary Kerry, as we mentioned, meeting with Saudi and French foreign ministers before he even gets to Vienna later this week. Reza Sayah, thank you so much in Tehran.

CUOMO: Right now, it's not easy to admit, but I'll tell you this --

BALDWIN: Something is not easy for to you admit? What?

CUOMO: I might as well just tell you, just don't tell anybody else. It took me years to get my wife to marry me. It was very hard.

BALDWIN: Here's my shocked face.

CUOMO: Here's what it is. If you're a masked murderer, everybody seems to want to marry you. It's a little bit of an exaggeration. Sometimes women are literally fighting to get into prison to marry mass murderers.

We told you about the 26-year-old who is just giddy about marrying Charles Manson. This happens often enough that it is studied by experts.

BALDWIN: It's a thing.

CUOMO: Is it just a cry for help or are we missing something? We will give you the science on it, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: Normally, we get excited about wedding bells ringing, but this one is disturbing to say the least. Wedding bells for Charles Manson, the 80-year-old mass murderer, serving a life sentence has been granted a marriage license in California.

He reportedly intends to marry his 26-year-old girlfriend, Afton Burton. She goes by the name Star. Star spoke to CNN's Ted Rowlands in 2009 about moving across the country to be closer to the killer. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Why come here and then why do that?

AFTON "STAR" BURTON, CHARLES MANSON'S FIANCE: Well, because I love him and somehow I've got half a brain. That I can see that he is the one that knows what's going on. He's the one that, that is in the truth, whenever nobody else is. And --

ROWLANDS: What is it about him compared to other people you've met in your lifetime that makes him so unique and different?

BURTON: Charlie always tells the truth, no matter what.

ROWLANDS: And that's the problem with anyone else?

BURTON: Very few people.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PEREIRA: We have to discuss this with somebody who can maybe try and help us make sense of it. Wendy Walsh is a psychologist and CNN human behavior expert. Wendy, my goodness, I don't even know where to start.

We hear stories and there have been lifetime movies made about women who marry men in prison, convicted killers, rapists, et cetera. What is drawing these women and why is this case different than those other cases we've seen before?

WENDY WALSH, CNN HUMAN BEHAVIOR EXPERT: Well, in general women are attracted to men in prison because they think that's the ultimate bad boy that they can change in some way. But also there's a power thing because they are his eyes and arms outside.

He's, they don't actually have to have a real marriage or real relationship. He is safely behind bars in almost like an instant to know the mother acting for him.

Now this case is different because this girl was 17 years old when she began writing to him. She began writing to a psychopath and listened to her sound bite from years ago.

She is saying, I had half a brain. Clearly she is admitting she is only half way functional, half a brain, she used the term, and she said he seems to always know the truth. In other words, she is already under his spell, which is very dangerous.

PEREIRA: Talk more about that because I think that is the psychology that we find so often. People could make jokes about the age difference, but the fact that this is a psychopath we are dealing with.

We know how he was able to convince his followers that he's a heinous and atrocious and gruesome murderer. This is really a devastating thing to think that another young person that another young person has been drawn in.

WALSH: That's exactly what happened. I don't think he will be eligible for parole. He will be eligible, but I don't think he will get out. It doesn't matter. For nine years, he has been able to manipulate this young woman from behind bars.

She is free to do what she wants, but she is under his spell. They are master at manipulation. They target people specifically who they know they can control. Plenty of his Manson family members came from good homes and the fact that he was able to control them in this way is terrifying.

PEREIRA: I wish that she had people around her to protect her maybe even from herself right now. Wendy Walsh, we appreciate you joining us giving us a little perspective -- Chris. Brooke. Both of you, either one of you.

BALDWIN: This is my reaction.

CUOMO: I don't get it.

Here's what I also don't get. These pictures in Buffalo, New York this morning, what they are saying are absolutely historic. The National Weather Service says snowfall totals in some of these areas approaching record levels in a 24-hour period, talking to the mayor of Buffalo at the top of the hour.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)