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Ferguson Erupts After Grand Jury Ruling; Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel Resigning; Holiday Storm Headed for Northeast

Aired November 25, 2014 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: One is his reasonable fear came from two moments -- one, that he thought if he got punched another time, he may pass out or die. OK. That would be one thing that would be heavily cross-examined.

And then you have blood 160-plus feet away and 150-plus feet away, and the determination becomes what happened in between those two spots. He says I believe he was charging me.

When you look through the testimony, Mark, how compelling is that version of the event?

MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I tell you the last point you made is the most compelling to me of all of the evidence, because there was a question whether or not Mike Brown was surrendering or charging. And when we know that there was a 25-foot difference between Mike Brown's furthest point and coming back. That 25 feet would have given Darren Brown the opportunity to tell him to stop -- I'm sorry, Darren Wilson -- stop, get on the ground, whatever, which is consistent with what he said, and the failure for that to happen over that 25 feet is going to inform Darren Wilson's perspective as to who Mike Brown was and the fact he wasn't going to stop.

Most compelling piece of evidence was the fact that there was the come-back by Mike Brown.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: So, Mark, I want to ask you about another point that Chris just made, which is the punches to the face. There was an altercation at the patrol car and Darren Wilson felt scared by that altercation. He says he felt the third punch might have killed him. When you look at the post-fight pictures from the police station, they don't look like fatal blows were administered to Darren Wilson.

O'MARA: The difficult thing is when you think you're in fear of great bodily injury and when are you might be different. We look at --

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Irrational fear or --

(CROSSTALK)

O'MARA: We look at him the day after and say there was no significant injury caused to Wilson. There just wasn't.

In his mind, did he think there was? He certainly presented in a way to the grand jury to convince them that he felt that there was.

PEREIRA: Mark O'Mara, so many questions for you. We'll have to wait for another time for what lies ahead now for Ferguson, for Officer Wilson, for the community.

O'MARA: Tough times.

PEREIRA: Tough times indeed. Thanks so much for joining us.

CAMEROTA: All right. More on the drama in Ferguson coming up.

Plus, the Chuck Hagel era is over at the Pentagon. The defense secretary announcing his resignation. Why is he leaving now and who will replace him? We have a live report on that, just ahead.

PEREIRA: And a nor'easter could affect millions of holiday travelers on a big Thanksgiving getaway day. Indra Petersons is tracking the storm for us. She'll tell you what you need to know.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: Welcome back to NEW DAY.

This morning, there are so many questions about why the grand jury did not indict, but we do have the entire record of what they were presented with.

Let's bring in Evan Perez.

When you're looking at this evidence, what do you see?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, you know, Chris, one of the remarkable things is you know, Darren Wilson's testimony is basically as you just mentioned, unchallenged here. You know one of the things I was surprised about is he was going to testify at all. Usually, you know, you're in this situation, you don't want to testify to a grand jury.

CUOMO: Especially in front of a grand jury, because the prosecutor's show.

PEREZ: Right, it's the prosecutor's show. In this case, it turned out to be the genius show, because it really was the difference-maker, I think. You know, you see him describe a lot of things that you know normally would be challenged by a defense attorney -- by a prosecutor, including --

CUOMO: Such as?

PEREZ: Including his perception of this neighborhood, the Canfield- Green area as hostile environment to police. You know that may be true, maybe not. But, you know, that played perhaps, into the way he was behaving that day.

CUOMO: That a third punch may have killed him.

PEREZ: That a third punch might have killed him.

CUOMO: That he had to fire based on his fear of what happened in the car --

PEREZ: And his aggressive way in dealing with what were jaywalkers in the beginning.

CUOMO: Right.

And when you're looking at it, there's also a function of how you perceive the prosecutor, right? He's gotten a lot of criticism. He didn't need to go to the grand jury, that he punted.

But you picked up some things listening to him last night.

PEREZ: Right. I was in the room when he was delivering this. He was defiant. You know, he was -- in some ways, typical politician who has been facing a lot of criticism over the way he's handled this case. He's -- there have been a lot of in-fighting not only between him and local officials, but him and federal officials. He wanted the feds standing there next to him last night. They declined to be there.

And in some ways, what was interesting is his tone was one of almost Darren Wilson's attorney. He was not just a prosecutor.

CUOMO: That's important. That's not just about style, it comes down to substance of how he tested Wilson's story at the grand jury, because it's his show.

PEREZ: Right.

CUOMO: The great irony we were discussing before here is that this, when you have all of this testimony that, that is in conflict with one another, the temptation of a grand jury is discount both of them. Evan says red, I say blue, we're both out.

Darren Wilson was largely unchecked and that would enhance the power of his testimony to them.

PEREZ: Right. I think -- you know, look, today there's going to be a lot of second-guessing of everything, including Bob McCulloch's decision to announce this late in the evening. There's going to be all of this second-guessing of how the local police were prepared for this.

Look, the people who destroyed property last night, the people who rioted, they're responsible for their behavior. But there's a lot to say about the tone this prosecutor took last night, and whether it was inflammatory, frankly.

CUOMO: And remember, it ain't over.

PEREZ: It is not over.

CUOMO: We're hoping today calmer heads prevail and we don't have a night like we had last night. Evan, thank you very much for your perspective.

Alisyn and Michaela, back to you in New York.

CAMEROTA: OK. Chris, we'll get back to you shortly.

PEREIRA: Shall we take a look at some other headlines that are making news right now?

CAMEROTA: Right.

PEREIRA: All right. Here we go: An American is among eight people freed from abductors in Yemen. Sources from the Yemeni government say the group was freed from terrorists in a predawn raid. Seven of the abductors were killed during the raid. It's unclear exactly where the operation was carried out.

CAMEROTA: And University of Virginia officials are holding an emergency meeting today to discuss policies on sexual assault. The campus experiencing days of unrest, after an explosive "Rolling Stone" article revealing details of an alleged gang rape at an UVA fraternity house. Now, the associate dean of students under fire for admitting in a recent interview that some students who confessed to sexual assault were not expelled.

PEREIRA: Russia's economy could plunge into a recession, those words of warning from the country's finance minister. He said Russia is losing up to $140 billion annually because of falling oil prices and Western-imposed sanctions due to Russian aggression toward Ukraine. The country's currency has lost 25 percent of its value against the U.S. dollar since June.

CAMEROTA: And the Veterans Affairs Department has fired the director of its Phoenix Medical Center. Sharon Hellman had been on an administrative leave for six months amid revelations that some 1,700 patients had been on never-ending wait lists and may never have received care. The findings first exposed by CNN led to the discovery of similar problems throughout the V.A., and the resignation of the department's chief.

PEREIRA: President Obama is heading to his hometown of Chicago to meet with business leaders about his executive order on immigration. Days after he said he'd grant amnesty to nearly 5 million undocumented immigrants.

In the meantime, incoming Texas Governor Greg Abbott accused the president of violating the Constitution and says he's going to reach out to other states to join him in filing a lawsuit within the next two weeks.

CAMEROTA: And another top story today, President Obama's defense secretary is out. Chuck Hagel announcing his resignation after less than two years on the job.

So, did Hagel quit or was he forced out? And who will take charge of the Defense Department? CNN's Barbara Starr is live at the Pentagon for us.

Barbara, what have you learned?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Alisyn.

By all accounts, the president's only Republican cabinet member, Chuck Hagel, forced out for perhaps shall we say political expediency. Rumors had been rampant for weeks that the White House wanted to make a change in the foreign policy team. No indication that it would have been Susan Rice, the national security adviser or Secretary of State John Kerry, pretty much leaving Chuck Hagel essentially as the last man standing.

No matter what the White House says about it being a mutual decision, the indications are Hagel was basically pushed out.

Now, who will take over? One of the top contenders is a woman named Michele Flournoy. She's a former top Pentagon policy official. She has a lot of expertise, she is well-regarded.

But all the indications are, she, too, would, anybody will face a very tough confirmation hearing in the Senate. Because for the Senate, the question now is -- what makes the real difference in policy in the war against ISIS? Was it really Chuck Hagel? Or as many Republican senators believe, does there need to be a full airing of the president's security policy? Is this really a White House issue and much less an issue about Chuck Hagel? Alisyn?

CAMEROTA: So interesting. Barbara Starr, thanks so much for the update.

PEREIRA: All right. Well, we want to talk weather we know a big storm is headed for the Northeast, disrupting holiday travel plans for millions of Americans.

Indra Petersons, our meteorologist, is here. I was thinking, we've got everything planned, the extra little bit of turkey, extra chair -- you might now have to prepare for the weather, too.

INDRA PETERSONS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Necessarily always plan for this, right? It hinders these plans, it's like a deja vu of last year, where major hubs in the Northeast can once again be affected by a storm. Take a look, if you can go out today, go now. It will all change as low makes its way up the coastline.

I'm showing you noon tomorrow. It's one of those, you're saying "I have a chance" moments, rain has not switched over to snow just yet -- at least according to the latest models. Once you get past the afternoon that's when everything shifts, unfortunately, by Thursday, it's already out of here.

So, it's the biggest travel day of the year. That is going to be affected, to make matters worse, look at the major cities. Look at New York City, Philadelphia, D.C., right on the peak, even Boston. That is that line, right between rain and snow. So, tiny shift in the forecast completely changes everything. It's such a difficult forecast. Here's one of the models right along the coastline, heavy amounts of snow in through the major metropolitan cities. You shift it just barely offshore, everything changes and the amounts are lighter. So, this is the best we can do for you right now. The higher end in towards New York City, about four to eight inches of snow. D.C. about one to two.

But keep in mind, a foot of snow possible in places like New York, Vermont and New Hampshire.

PEREIRA: A foot of snow? OK, all right, well.

CAMEROTA: But I love that you're letting us in on how hard it is to forecast.

PETERSONS: That's right.

CAMEROTA: Indra Petersons, thanks so much.

Chris Cuomo has been on the ground in Ferguson, Missouri all night. Let's get back to him now.

Chris?

CUOMO: All right. We'll keep following the breaking news that is going on right now here in Ferguson. There is obviously a violent reaction to the grand jury's decision to not indict the police officer in the fatal shooting of unarmed teenager Michael Brown.

So, how does Ferguson move past the anger? And what went into this grand jury decision? We have answers for you this morning.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: Welcome back to NEW DAY.

I'm on the ground at the command center in Ferguson, Missouri. Following a tense and violent night after the grand jury decided not to indict Officer Darren Wilson.

Let's discuss the response on the ground and why this may have happened with the grand jury.

We consider Chris King. He's the manager editor of the "St. Louis American", one of the oldest and certainly well-connected and continuously published African-American newspapers here in the city.

And Eric Zahnd, the prosecuting attorney in Platte County, Missouri.

It's good to have you both.

Let's deal with the reaction on the ground. This fair appraisal by me was worse than we expected and did not seem to be handled as well as we expected?

CHRIS KING, MANAGING EDITOR, THE ST. LOUIS AMERICAN: Correct and correct.

CUOMO: Why?

KING: Well, I think the police did too much and too little.

CUOMO: How do you do both?

KING: Well, in some cases, too much tear gassing, a little bit indiscriminately and too little guarding of some of the properties and guarding the firefighters who could have put out the fires rather than let them burn.

CUOMO: But there was gunfire going on. And, you know, people keep saying, where was the National Guard? You have very -- this community was very critical of bringing in the National Guard at all. And now, hindsight is 20/20, they're saying why weren't they out there more. Is that fair?

KING: Well, the role of the Guard was misunderstood from the beginning. They were coming into to guard the federal facilities and to be on the back line. So, the trained police officers could be on the front line. That wasn't a bad plan, but I think the command could have responded differently to the threats as they emerged.

CUOMO: You understand this community very well and what's going on. You know there are outside agitators. You know that there are more divisions among protesters than there were in August.

What do you think we see tonight, tomorrow night? Have we seen the worst?

KING: I think we've seen the worst. Yes.

CUOMO: Good.

KING: I think we'll see more of the midline leaders coming out and creating that bridge between the young angry folks and the millennial leaders that have captured the world's attention, and I also think the outside agitators will be run out of town as they have been before.

CUOMO: And you were saying before, yes, the authorities had a plan. But you believe the outside agitators and bad guys had a better plan, that a lot of the arsons were planned.

KING: Well, I see some outsiders of those arsons. There was some graffiti the night before in a peaceful protest that promised some burning. That seems to me that same group probably promised it and delivered it.

CUOMO: Now, we get to why did this happen. Looking over the record prosecutor, when you see the testimony of Officer Wilson, the irony is usually we don't want to put people in front of you guys in a grand jury because you run the show. But here, looking at the testimony, he didn't go through the withering cross-examination his story wouldn't have gone through otherwise, when you balance it with a lot of conflicting testimony, he probably wound up being the most pure version of events the grand jurors heard, true?

ERIC ZAHND, PROSECUTING ATTORNEY, PLATTE COUNTY, MISSOURI: I think there's a lot of truth in that, Chris. And it's dramatic when the grand jury hears from the target of the investigation, because that rarely, rarely happens, in this case, he willingly came forward, we know that he talked a lot to the grand jury.

And so, I think, I think what he had to say was important to the grand jury. It also, though, appears it was backed up by a lot of forensic evidence in the case as well.

CUOMO: And, again, if there's conflicting testimony, it winds up being more powerful to hear from the people involved.

Is it fair criticism of the prosecutor to say he didn't check Wilson's story the way he could? It was his show he could have peppered him with questions all day. It doesn't seem like he did.

ZAHND: Yes. You know, I don't think that's necessarily fair, because here's what we did, not only was Officer Wilson there, but many other witnesses were able to tell their stories as well. And they didn't go through withering cross-examinations, either, from the small parts that I've seen.

And so, what the grand jury got to hear was what these witnesses had to say. About what happened, that terrible, terrible day. And in the end, nine of them could not agree that there was problem all cause that any crime was committed.

CUOMO: When I say the prosecutor, mine his whole office, obviously he's not the one running it because he doesn't want to be a witness in his own potential trial.

One other legal point, in Missouri law specifically, the prosecutor was explaining to me that you can use defense of life, deadly force, if you fear a felony may be happening to you. Explain what that and what means for the officer?

ZAHND: That's correct. There's a unique provision in Missouri law that says if you believe you're going to be the victim of a forcible felony.

CUOMO: A forcible felony. Not that someone's going to kill you.

ZAHND: That's right. And in Missouri, it's also a forcible felony to even attempt to cause physical injury to a law enforcement officer.

CUOMO: So, if I'm a police officer and I believe you want to punch me in the face, I can shoot and kill you?

ZAHND: Theoretically, that's true under Missouri law. When people talked about what should the law be, is the system broken here?

You know, that's something that perhaps we can look at in Missouri law. But that's the law as it stands now. CUOMO: All right. Thank you very much prosecutor and Chris King,

very good. We will stay in touch with you and we want to hear what's going on in the community so we can prepare for later. Hopefully, we'll have a very different night than we had last night.

Gentlemen, thank you very much.

Alisyn, back to you in New York.

CAMEROTA: All right, Chris. We'll be back to you in a second.

But the images of the violence overnight in Ferguson are startling, several businesses and a row of cars at a dealership were engulfed by fire in the nearby city of Dellwood. You can see this here. Firefighters were not able to respond because of gunshots they say. So, how can Ferguson bring the chaos under control moving forward?

Let's bring in Juliette Kayyem. She's a CNN national security analyst and former assistant secretary in the Department of Homeland Security. Tom Fuentes, CNN law enforcement and former FBI assistant director, and Mel Robbins, CNN commentator and legal analyst.

Great to have all of you with us this morning.

Tom, let me start with you.

Michaela and I have been talking all morning -- it seems like releasing the information at 9:00 p.m., at nightfall, as things were just getting ginned up there, that seems like a bad decision. What's your take on that?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I have seen both sides of this. Alisyn and I think Chris Cuomo hit it right on the head earlier when he said, you know, that there would be less people about. Businesses would be closed, schools would be closed, there'd be, you know, a lot lighter traffic in the area. And there would be fewer people to deal with for the police, as opposed to rush hour traffic at 9:00 in the morning or the middle of a business day, or shopping day when stores are open.

So, you know, there is two sides to that argument.

PEREIRA: There are two sides to the argument. You look at it right now, the images -- these aren't black and white images from the '60s. Juliette, Kayyem, this is 2014. We had time, we had advanced warning, we had time to plan. There were plans in place.

Could these scenes have been avoided?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Probably not, all the scenes that could have been avoided. I mean, look, everyone knew whatever the verdict was going to be, there was going to be some violent reaction.

And just picking up on what Tom said, you know, in hindsight it is obvious that the decision do announce at 9:00 p.m. was a bad decision and I'm racking my head to figure out, why not Wednesday before Thanksgiving? I mean, they could have controlled the timing, knowing that this was inevitably going to happen.

And I think you know, sort of the build-up and the excitement about what the verdict would be or what the decision would be, led to this sense that the sort of explosiveness. And now, the job is just to get people to ratchet back, get them to focus on the holiday. And hope that it eases.

CAMEROTA: And, Mel, we're talking about the inevitability of this. The police should have been prepared, you would think. We talked about it for a long time. About the combustible situation that might happen.

Yet the people on the ground were saying where was the National Guard? Where were the fire trucks, in order to put out soft flames? They felt that the officials were woefully unprepared.

MEL ROBBINS, CNN COMMENTATOR & LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it seems like they were unprepared on a number of levels. When we heard that the announcement was going to happen at 8:00 last night Central Time, I was back in the green room with a bunch of the legal analysts, you're going to see all day long on CNN.

And my immediate reaction was -- oh, well there must be an indictment. Because why on earth after everything would you make the announcement at night? Because they had been talking about wanting to protect people's right to peacefully protest, and wanting to protect people's right to assemble. It is very difficult to control a crowd at night or it's much more difficult than it is during the day.

And so, I agree with you. I think that you know, we got to separate what we're talk about. There's the grand jury decision as one topic and there's how they handled it, which was irresponsible, disappointing, tragic, embarrassing on all counts.

And I think you know, I agree with Juliette and Tom, while I see both sides, I still don't understand why they didn't wait until this morning.

PEREIRA: Let's pivot and turn to the pile of papers that's on your lap here. You've been up all night looking through this as have all of our legal analysts and law enforcement analysts here. First of all, let's pull back and say is it unusual to see Officer Wilson testify at a grand jury? I think a lot of people would want --

ROBBINS: I keep hearing my colleagues say it's unusual. It is not unusual --

PEREIRA: OK, why?

ROBBINS: -- to have a defendant that's accused of a crime, that is a credible defendant, whose guilt or innocence is going to hinge on his testimony be put into the grand jury. I can cite case after case, even in New York, where they've done it in major police shooting cases. And the reason why is because, if you're thinking about it as a

defense attorney, police officers are often very credible. And also, the law hinges on whether or not their point of view is reasonable based on all of the circumstances.

CAMEROTA: I want to get to the heart of what's in that testimony. Tom, let me bring you in. Because it's the first time that we hear Darren Wilson in his own words talk about what escalated the situation. And he testifies that there was this altercation at the car, as you know with Michael Brown and that he was afraid of Michael Brown.

He said when brown stepped back and then looked at him this is a quote, "with the most intense aggressive face, the only way I can describe it, it looks like a demon. That's how angry he looked."

So, Darren Wilson basically from the altercation at the car, thought in his mind, perceived he was fighting a demon. That helps explain why he thought he had to use deadly force -- but I'm not sure it explains that all police would have done that in that case, Tom.

FUENTES: Well, that's, that's difficult to say what all police would do. I was a street cop six years. I have seen that demon face myself. And if you don't believe it, look at the videotape of the convenience store wildfire he steals the cigars? You know, he shoves the clerk, that's one time. He starts to walk out and that could have been over. But he made the U-turn and coming, facing the cam remarks you see that look on his face, and this is about 10 minutes before the encounter with Officer Wilson.

So, you know, Wilson is backed up and I think the reason he becomes so credible is, it's not just his word, it's not just because he's a police officer. It's not just because he's a white police officer. It's because all of the forensic evidence actually backs him up -- the attack at the car, what happened on the street coincides with what statements he made and that was at a time before he knew what the forensic evidence would be.

CAMEROTA: Tom Fuentes, Juliette Kayyem, Mel Robbins, thanks so much. We'll be talking more about this testimony throughout the show, great to have you all here. Thanks so much.

All right. We're following a lot of news, let's get right to it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I join Michael's parents in asking anyone who protests this decision to do so peacefully.

PROTESTERS: Hands up, don't shoot! Hands up, don't shoot!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They said if there was violence tonight, it would mar the memory of their child.

(CHANTING) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Y'all should have seen this coming!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were promised we would be protected. I don't see the National Guard.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need to get out of the street or you will be subject to arrest.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we're going to survive at all, we're going to have to come together.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: Welcome back to NEW DAY. I'm Chris Cuomo in Ferguson, Missouri, where the reaction was worse than anyone expected.