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New Day

News Conference With St. Louis Mayor; Rudy Giuliani's Views on Ferguson; Ferguson Erupts Following Grand Jury Decision; Snow on the Way for Eastern Seaboard

Aired November 25, 2014 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: The cops have a difficult job. There is no doubt about it. And if Michael Brown was coming at Officer Wilson, as really the evidence really does seem to indicate that, that is obviously the key evidence in the jury finding no indictment. I'm just thinking perhaps there was a better way to handle this.

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I have to disagree totally with Jeff on this. Police officers, when someone is running at them trying to attack them, they don't have an obligation to run away. They're allowed to stand and hold their ground.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: He turned around and he didn't get on the ground.

CALLAN: We know from the grand jury testimony that he was -- there were witnesses who said he was charging the officer. The officer has testified that Michael Brown was charging him. Now, yes, he could have run away. But I don't think it's the proper thing to say police officers now have an obligation to run away from suspects.

CAMEROTA: No, the question is that the officer perceived that he was charging him. He may not have been charging him. He may have been turning around with his hands up, which other witnesses said was happening.

CALLAN: Well, the hands up thing I think is very interesting. We could go to that because some of the witnesses say hands up in a surrender gesture. Other witnesses seem to suggest that it was a charging gesture.

But putting that aside, it's kind of -- you see what your -- what you want to see, all right? Depending upon your attitude toward the police. But the thing that I find interesting is from having presented a lot of these cases to grand juries myself, is that the second thing that happens in a case is a police officer, if he's got a guy who is surrendering says down on the ground. And the next thing that happens is the cuffs are put on.

That never happens in this case because the officer says, he never complied. Michael Brown continued to charge him. So it wasn't really a surrender gesture, says the cop. CAMEROTA: That is what was in the testimony, you're right. He claims, Officer Wilson said, he claimed he said get on the ground and that didn't happen. Jeffrey Toobin, Paul Callan, great to get your perspective. Thank you so much for being here.

We have more coming up on the situation in Ferguson, including a live news conference from the mayor and the police chief of St. Louis.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Plus former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani has strong views about the Ferguson protests and how the police response has been. He will join our conversation live.

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FRANCIS STAY, ST. LOUIS MAYOR: It really sets back the cause of social justice. Violence doesn't solve anything. And if we're going to have real change in this community, it's going to take all of us working together. And not committing violence.

What happened in St. Louis City, largely, largely peaceful protests, but there was some violence as well. As you can see, walking up and down the street, a number of windows were broken. We had about 21 windows broken here in South Grand, about seven windows broken in other places in the city of St. Louis.

There were 21 arrests, six city, six city violations as well as about 15 felony violations. The chief is going to talk a little bit more about that.

I will tell you that you know, here on Grand Avenue, this is a, a very good community of a lot of people who care deeply about our city, who are vesting in their community. They are working hard to really bring back this area of the city.

They don't deserve it. People of our community do not deserve even this kind of violence that occurred in the city of St. Louis. I will tell you that you know, we're going to be prepared for this evening as well.

And I'll turn it over to the chief to let him give his thoughts about what happened and what we're planning on doing as we go forward.

SAM DOTSON, ST. LOUIS POLICE CHIEF: Thank you. Good morning. As the mayor said last night, I couldn't have been more proud of the police officers that responded to this. They were able to address the issues that were presented to them. We worked well with the organized groups to facilitate their marches up and down Grand.

But at some point individuals, criminals, began to break windows, along this corridor, began to act in a way that none of us really like to see in our city. None of us want to see in our city. At that point we gave an order to disburse, we asked the individuals to leave the area. Many of them did.

But those that didn't continue to break windows along this corridor, again the mayor said 21 windows smashed. We had felony arrests for unlawful use of a weapon, possession of firearms, so protesters brought guns to the environment.

Again I couldn't be more proud of the officers, the plan that we had with the National Guard to deploy them throughout the city at about 45 locations, I believe did have a positive impact.

We did see bands of individuals roaming throughout the city looking for opportunities to commit crime and at every turn. They encountered police officers or members of the National Guard. And so I was very pleased with the way that plan worked.

So as we move forward, we're going to continue to see the presence of the police department at organized events, just as we have seen. But you're going to see more of them and very early on, because we know what's capable of happening in these crowds.

Now very early on, you will see an intervention when we see criminal activity. We do not tolerate criminal activity. We do not tolerate window smashing, looting, crime associated with these.

So while we support everybody's right to come out and have their voices heard, you will see a large police presence and when crime starts you'll see as an intervention much more quickly than we did last night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you disappointed the rules of conduct didn't hold better?

STAY: Well, here's what I will tell you. First of all, I'm disappointed in any and all of the violence that occurred. And as the chief says, we don't tolerate violence. The people that were committing violence, the people looting, smashing windows, that's not protesting.

That's criminal conduct and it's even more than -- I'm more than disappointed, I'm outraged by it and it's something that we're not, as the chief said, we're not going to tolerate.

Also say this I will also echo what the chief said about the men and women of the St. Louis Police Department. I'm very, very proud of them. They did a great job last night dealing with large crowds and a lot of activity going on at once at different locations.

They were professionals. They handled themselves with restraint and again, we learned, we're learning as we go forward as well. We learned you know since August 9th on how to do things better and also we learned last night, some things we can do to help prepare us even better for tonight as well.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chief, can you talk to us about the shutdown of --

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: All right, we're listening in on a press conference with the mayor and police chief of St. Louis right now. On the other side of your screen, you're looking at live pictures, the first one as the sun comes up here in Dellwood, Missouri, neighboring here. They're still fighting fires. Some dozen buildings were set ablaze last night, many of them still burning this morning. The police chief said if there's violence tonight, you will see police officers responding more quickly than they did last night.

Still an open question as to whether or not the National Guard will be used more perhaps specifically to protect property, which was very damaged last night. Let's get you back to New York and Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK, Chris, thanks so much. Joining us now is former mayor of New York City, Rudy Giuliani. Mr. Mayor, thanks so much for being here.

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: Good morning.

CAMEROTA: Do you think officials in Ferguson were prepared for what happened last night?

GIULIANI: Obviously not. I mean, the evidence on your television screen demonstrates they weren't. And I fear that they reintroduced a theory that is very, very false. It's cooling off theory.

We had two riots in New York City and Washington Heights and in Crown Heights, with an excellent report actually written by Chris's father's administration, Governor Cuomo.

You don't let them cool off. Last night I was listening to, you know, they're throwing things, they're throwing things. The cops are backing off. The cops are giving them a little room. You have every right to protest.

You have every right to protest. You have every right to scream. You have every right to yell. The first time you throw something at a police officer, you get handcuffed, arrested, and taken away.

The first window you break, you don't get 15 or 20 minutes of a cooling off period. The report demonstrates that cooling off period leads to worse and worse violence. Secondly, they didn't have enough police.

They should have had -- I was -- I was opposed by the way to declaring a state of emergency. I thought it created a psychological atmosphere. What I would have done is I would have masked my police, secretly.

I would have had twice as many, three times as many police as they had, but I would have had them hidden all over the city. The minute it started, they would have been overwhelmed by police. And they would have been arrested, at the first moment they threw something. Not after a half hour or an hour of having a cooling off period.

CAMEROTA: Would you have had your police to use tear gas on the protesters?

GIULIANI: I would have had them do anything necessary to stop them. My concern now, last night, my concern was for the Brown family. I feel terrible for them. I believe it was a correct verdict. In fact I think it was the only verdict the grand jury could reach.

CAMEROTA: Why?

GIULIANI: I'm going to tell you why, as a prosecutor you couldn't possibly have won that case. One of the things I was a United States attorney for 11 years. You consider two things when you decide an indictment -- one, do you have probable cause? I don't think there's any question, they didn't have probable cause.

But past that, number two, can you win this case at trial? They would have been destroyed at trial by a halfway competent defense lawyer, because of all the inconsistencies. And frankly, the prosecutor was generous.

Because of all the perjury that was committed by witnesses whose testimony was contradicted by physical evidence and whose testimony is contradicted by themselves. There are several witnesses, who gave three different versions including under oath.

So you could never have won this case. This riot you see today would have taken place six months from now when the officer was acquitted by a jury. If you can't prove probable cause, how are you going to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt when the witnesses are contradicting themselves?

CAMEROTA: I know Chris Cuomo has a question for you from Ferguson -- Chris.

CUOMO: I got a lot of questions for you, Mr. Mayor. This is a situation that you became all too familiar with. Not riots, not fights over criminal justice. But how do you deal with situations when they go wrong.

One of the things I've been suggesting and I want your take on it, sir, is that there's a vacuum of leadership here. The explanation of why this grand jury had to find what it had to find. That you will arrested at the first moment that we are ready.

And here's how it's going to go and most importantly -- here's how we'll heal. Those are things that a leader has to say and this community seems to have a vacuum on that right now. Is that a fair criticism, sir?

GIULIANI: It's absolutely fair. In fact when we go back and study this, that should be part of it as when we went back and studied the Crown Heights riots and learned from that, there was a vacuum of leadership, a cooling off period for two days that made the riot worse.

No attempt to really bring the communities together that really worked. Obviously all that work they did since August bringing the communities together was completely for naught. This riot was worse than the one in August.

They went from bad to worse. And no one was saying the right -- no one was saying the right things. No one was talking about the fact that you can protest, you can yell, you can scream, you have every right to be very angry about this.

If you want to the first minute you throw a can, the first minute you hurt a car, the first minute you break a window, you are put in handcuffs and you are taken away. And by the way, there will be three times as many police here as you. So don't mess around with us.

CAMEROTA: Let me play for you, what the police chief and Ron Johnson, Captain Ron Johnson, who, of course, was heroic back over the summer for coming in and quelling some of the outcry. Here is what they said at the height of this last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JON BELMAR, ST. LOUIS COUNTY POLICE CHIEF: What I've seen tonight is probably much worse than the worst night we ever had in August. And that's truly unfortunate.

RON JOHNSON, MISSOURI STATE HIGHWAY PATROL: We did not see a large number out tonight and the few we saw didn't have a voice with the crowd.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: It sounds like he's saying had there been more clergy interspersed in the crowd that they could have helped to abate the violence.

GIULIANI: There's no question. We have in New York, a community affairs unit, a very large, very important. They are involved in every single possible civil disturbance. They're people who know the community. They're people who work in the community.

They're employed by the city, but they work in the community and they sometimes can ameliorate some of the anger between the police and I don't know, honestly it wouldn't be fair to criticize, I don't know if they had such a thing. But they should have had that.

CAMEROTA: And Mr. Mayor, I want to ask you about some controversial comments that you made on "Meet the Press" over the weekend. You seem to be suggesting that the real focus here should be black-on-black violence. And that white cops wouldn't have to go into black communities if black communities could sort of better police themselves.

GIULIANI: I said the same thing the president the United States said and I was accused of being a racist. The president of the United States said because the minorities typically are subject to more crime, they need law enforcement more than anybody else. When he said it, he wasn't accused of being a racist.

When I said it my adversary said I was a racist. The point is no New York City the way you determine where we put our police is not racially. We determine it by the numbers. If there are large amounts of crime in this community, we put more police there. If we didn't do that, we would be racist. If I put all my police on Park Avenue and none of my police where five times more crime is taking place, then I would be accused of being a racist. The police follow where the crime is committed. And this is possibly because of our history of racism.

Possibly because of social problems, other problems that we're not dealing with, but the amount of crime in the black community is excessive, 70 to 75 percent of the murders in New York City are committed by blacks.

Now I don't say that out of any racial motivation. I say that as a factual statement and as a plea, please, do something about that. When the president was talking last night about training the police, of course, the police should be trained.

He also should have spent 15 minutes on -- training the community to stop killing each other. In numbers that are incredible, incredible, 93 percent of blacks are shot by other blacks. They are killing each other.

And the racial arsonists, who enjoyed last night, this was their day of glory, the racial arsonists. They don't talk about that. When do you hear them talk about how do we really reduce crime. What are the causes? What about family problems? How do we solve them?

CAMEROTA: Wouldn't it also help to have police officers who know the community? Whereas, Darren Wilson didn't know Ferguson, he wasn't from Ferguson.

GIULIANI: It does help. But we've had some terrible shootings by police officers who knew the community. And some police officers will tell you, that the police officers that know the community are tougher sometimes more difficult than the ones who don't.

I think, I think this is a situation in which people have to stop committing so much crime. If you commit 75 percent of the murders in a city, 75 percent of your police presence is going to be concentrated on you.

CAMEROTA: Mr. Mayor, I know you've lost your earpiece, but I want to you put it back in for a second. Because Chris Cuomo in Ferguson does have a final question for you as soon as you can --

GIULIANI: I'll get it right in there.

CAMEROTA: OK, go ahead, Chris --

CUOMO: All right, Mr. Mayor, I know you weren't trying to avoid my question. Here's what we want to know. We have an urgency in front of us. There are a lot of big issues about why crime exists. We know that blacks kill blacks.

We know that whites kill whites. We've known it for a long time and we know that those root causes have to be dealt with that's not going to happen today. What is your advice for the leaders in this community for how they avoid what happened last night? GIULIANI: Good point. It's not going to happen today. It's going to take years. And blacks kill blacks and whites kill whites except blacks kill blacks seven times more than whites kill whites. Only 8 percent of the murders in New York City are white, 75 percent are black. So there's a vast difference.

The way it should be dealt with is the community should get together. The clergy should be brought in everyone should be brought in. The police should be doubled or tripled for tonight.

The first person, the first person that commits a crime hurts property, hurts a person, tries to loot a store -- should be arrested immediately by a large number of police that completely overwhelm them.

And all of those public officials should say -- look, it's not going to happen. You're not going do riot. You're going go to jail. You're going to be arrested. No cooling off period, no acceptance of a little bit of violence. Little bit of violence leads to more violence and then it gets out of control and I'm not just telling you this.

This is the wisdom that emerged from the report that was done in the Crown Heights riot and I followed that as mayor of New York City and one thing I never had was a riot.

CAMEROTA: Mayor Giuliani, great to see you. Thanks so much for coming on NEW DAY.

We're following, of course, the latest on the overnight protests in Ferguson. We have it for you all morning.

But next a monster storm is also set to impact holiday travel for millions of people. We're tracking that and what you need to know. Stick around.

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CAMEROTA: A big storm is headed for the northeast just in time for huge holiday travel for millions of Americans.

Let's get right to meteorologist, Indra Petersons, keeping track of all this.

INDRA PETERSONS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Bad timing. The message is if you can get out now do so. Everything changes in the next 24 hours, all things to the slow making its way up the coastline I'm pausing it at noon tomorrow, pretty much your last chance to get out before the rain shifts into snow.

And it all has to do with the placement of the low for the forecast, keep in mind by Thanksgiving already kicking out of here, the biggest travel day of the year for the major cities, Boston, New York, Philly, even D.C. are going to be right on the border of the rain or snow line. What does that mean a tiny shift in the forecast completely changes how much rain or snow you have. The first model heavy amounts of snowfall. You barely get this over just offshore changes everything more of a wintry mix and lighter amounts of snowfall.

Looking at all the models the best we can give you on the higher end, New York City, four to eight inches of snowfall, but look at places Western Massachusetts almost a foot of snowfall, same thing as you go in through New England. We'll be carefully monitoring, things change and they change quickly.

CAMEROTA: OK, thanks for showing us all the different models.

PEREIRA: All right, let's look at some of our headlines we're keeping an eye on for you. An American is among eight people freed from abductors in Yemen. Sources from the Yemeni government say the group was freed from terrorist in a pre-dawn raid. Several of the abductors were killed during that raid. It's unclear exactly where this operation was carried out.

President Obama is looking for a new defense secretary. Chuck Hagel is resigning and will stay in place until a successor is named. The change is being billed as mutual. However, sources tell CNN that Hagel was forced out. Hagel had only been on the job since early last year.

PEREIRA: University of Virginia officials are holding an emergency meeting today to discuss policies on their campus regarding sexual assault. The campus experiencing days of unrest after that explosive "Rolling Stone" article revealed details of gang rape at a UVA fraternity house.

Now the associate dean of students is now under fire for admitting some students who confessed to sexual assault were not expelled. You can imagine there will be a lot of unrest in the days coming because of that.

CAMEROTA: A lot of protests there.

All right, meanwhile, more on our breaking news coverage from Ferguson, Missouri, when we come right back.

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