Return to Transcripts main page
New Day
Brown Shooting Witness Speaks Out; Riots in Ferguson Overnight; Analysis of Grand Jury Decision
Aired November 25, 2014 - 08:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PIAGET CRENSHAW, EYEWITNESS TO MICHAEL BROWN SHOOTING: Well, it just seemed as if, you know, they kind of cross-examined before the time and they kind of put words in their mouth almost to where you had to tell them, no, this is not what I said and this is not what I meant, but this is what I said and this is what I meant.
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: So you felt that they were testing your story?
CRENSHAW: Yes.
CUOMO: And pushing to see if it were true or not?
CRENSHAW: Yes, which is completely understandable in some respects, but, yes, completely.
CUOMO: Did you get to hear anybody else's?
CRENSHAW: No, not at this time yet.
CUOMO: And -- so you were - only because of the leaks, otherwise you thought there would have been an indictment?
CRENSHAW: I thought maybe.
CUOMO: And that goes to what you think you saw, right?
CRENSHAW: Yes. I thought just maybe because there's a whole - it's a whole group of people are telling the same thing, a whole bunch of people aren't going to make up the same lie.
CUOMO: Oh, you know what the prosecutor says is that there was a lot of inconsistencies. Like you said red, I said green.
CRENSHAW: Yes.
CUOMO: Or, you know, you said red and I lie about saying green.
CRENSHAW: And that happens.
CUOMO: And when that happens, if you were sitting in the box and listening to it, as one of the grand jurors, you start dismissing everybody and then Darren Wilson gives his testimony and he doesn't have that problem of people, you know, checking him on his story the same way. CRENSHAW: Right. Of course, because when you compile your story after
witnesses compile theirs, what more could you get?
CUOMO: So let's go back to what you think you know. All right, what do I say it that way? Because I'm a lawyer and as you know, counsel, that's what it's all about. Testimony is always a variability between what we think we saw and what maybe we actually saw. What do you think you saw on that day?
CRENSHAW: Well, definitely what I saw was his hands go up. And rather - whatever -- whoever other witnesses looked like to say that his hands were down by his side or up in the air or (inaudible) even perpendicular, whichever way, his hands were still visible in a manner you could tell he was unarmed. So at that point where his hands were at, he was unarmed and should not have been shot.
CUOMO: Unarmed. OK. But -- so there's unarmed and then there's surrendering.
CRENSHAW: Yes.
CUOMO: Do you think you know 100 percent that that's what Michael Brown was doing?
CRENSHAW: Yes. I don't believe anybody would show their hands to the police unless they were surrendering, or unless they're trying to tell them there's no weapon in my hand.
CUOMO: And when he did that hand gesture, this was near the end -
CRENSHAW: Uh-huh, sorry (ph).
CUOMO: This was near the end when he had his hands out like that, right?
CRENSHAW: Oh, right before he got shot and his hands were up.
CUOMO: They were up?
CRENSHAW: Yes.
CUOMO: What happened after he put his hands up and the -- before the shooting began? In that moment, what happened?
CRENSHAW: Before he put his -
CUOMO: From when his hands were like this, to when the shooting happened, what happened?
CRENSHAW: Well, it all happened so quick, I can't really, you know, specify every little detail of everything. But I just know that he got shot really quickly. And one of those shots did go to his face and that's the part that really got me.
CUOMO: The officer says, "I thought he was coming at me." CRENSHAW: And even if you did - even if he did appear to be moving
closer, you could still see that he was visibly unarmed. And even if you had a good amount of distance between you guys, I don't understand why he would fear for his life.
CUOMO: But do you think that the officer is telling the truth when he says, I thought the kid was coming at me?
CRENSHAW: Well, honestly, yes. And just like all the witnesses, how everybody's story was just a bit - you know, I mean, off a little bit.
CUOMO: But you saw it.
CRENSHAW: But in everybody's eyes they saw what they saw.
CUOMO: But you saw -
CRENSHAW: So, in his eyes, he saw what he saw.
CUOMO: Would it be something that - could it be explained that way that, yes, his hands may have been like this or however you say you saw them, but that he was moving towards the officer?
CRENSHAW: And that's the part that I don't understand. That's why - that's why I really thought it wouldn't -- might have just been an indictment and taken to trial just because of the hands (inaudible), whether they were anywhere, they were visible, it doesn't matter.
CUOMO: But did you see him moving toward the officer?
CRENSHAW: I did not.
CUOMO: What did you see him doing?
CRENSHAW: I saw him fall.
CUOMO: Just fall.
CRENSHAW: Falling.
CUOMO: You never saw any moving toward?
CRENSHAW: That's what I didn't see. So --
CUOMO: So how do you explain it?
CRENSHAW: That's what - that's - that's what everybody else is asking, how do you explain this? That's why half the city's torn up now.
CUOMO: What did you think of what happened last night to your city?
CRENSHAW: Honestly, honestly I was appalled that -- about all the fires. I expected the looting, but the fires, I honestly, Ferguson Market, somebody set on fire. I took the time out myself, as a woman, took three gallons of milk and put the fire out just so the Ferguson Market wouldn't have to burn. I asked people for help, and nobody wanted to help. So I did that by myself. So, honestly, me, as just somebody who has to live around there, we already don't have a Quick Trip (ph) anymore. We already don't have a side street - you know what I mean - I'm sorry, a (inaudible) anymore. Now this is all we got here. You (ph) just completely tearing it up.
CUOMO: The people are angry, but you believe they're hurting themselves -
CRENSHAW: Yes.
CUOMO: Because it's their community where they live.
CRENSHAW: Completely obvious and sad to say it's really my generation that's doing this. The more - the older people, the more wise people, they're coming out to protest and they're shutting 44 (ph) down and leading (ph) peacefully. The young people, the high schoolers, I saw middle schoolers out there just like of good decision making really. It's just -- it was all bad decision making, really.
CUOMO: What needs to happen here? How do you get past this?
CRENSHAW: Honestly, it needs to be a total reform. That's the only way I could see, like a total reform. The police department. We need a total reform of new laws like -- just a total reform.
CUOMO: You think it will happen?
CRENSHAW: I think it's a possibility.
CUOMO: You have hope?
CRENSHAW: I do.
CUOMO: What about for tonight?
CRENSHAW: I just hope it was nothing like last night.
CUOMO: You think it will be better? What's the word?
CRENSHAW: Honestly, because I feel like everybody -- they were acting in the moment, and they got it all off their chest last night. I'm really praying that tonight will be better.
CUOMO: This is one of those times things look bad -
CRENSHAW: Yes.
CUOMO: And we've got Thanksgiving two days away and it's one of those times where you just have to count your blessings and people have to start thinking about what is good, what can be good, because on the face of things right now, people have a lot of reason to see only the bad.
CRENSHAW: Exactly.
CUOMO: And we'll see whether or not people are -- have it in them here right now to move past this.
CRENSHAW: Definitely.
CUOMO: With Thanksgiving two days away, it's going to be a real test of (inaudible).
CRENSHAW: And it's ruined a lot of people's Thanksgiving. And I'm so sorry for those families that got directly impacted by these events that unfolded.
CUOMO: Piaget, thank you for talking to us about this gain.
CRENSHAW: Thank you.
CUOMO: I know it's not something you like to relive, but thank you. And I know you're cold. We'll get you warm right now. Counsel, thank you for being with us. Appreciate it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. All right.
CUOMO: All right, so the decision certainly riled up the city of Ferguson, but this question of why and how did the grand jury get to where they did of not indicting is going to be haunting until we get more proof. And now you have it. The explosive evidence, the grand jury review, including what wound up being the most (inaudible), what Darren Wilson says happened. We're going to examine why he said he believes he was forced to shoot an unarmed teenager named Michael Brown. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CUOMO: Violence erupting overnight after the grand jury in Missouri decided not to indict Police Officer Darren Wilson in the shooting death of Michael Brown. Smoke bombs were used. Tear gas was certainly used. There was violence. There were fires that lasted all night and into right now, as well as a lot of looting.
So, we have to look at why the two major events occurred. One, why did the grand jury come to the conclusion that it did? And, secondly, why did last night go as badly as it did? We have perspective from people who are following this and who lived it. CNN commentator Van Jones, CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Sunny Hostin and CNN anchor Don Lemon, my partner for a large part of the evening last night.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Yes.
CUOMO: So, let's first look at what the heck happened last night. They've been preparing for a month. They had a plan. They had a state of emergency. They brought in the National Guard and then it all seemed to go south. Former Mayor Rudy Giuliani knows about managing a big city in times of crisis. Here's what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER MAYOR NEW YORK: There was a vacuum of leadership, a cooling off period for two days that made the riot worse, no attempt to really bring the communities together that really worked. Obviously, all that work they did since August, bringing the communities together, was completely for naught. This riot was worse than the one in August. They went from bad to worse. And no one was saying the right - no one was saying the right things. No one was talking about the fact that you can protest, you can yell, you can scream, you have every right to be very angry about this if you want to. The first minute you throw a can, the first minute you hurt a car, the first minute you break a window, you are put in handcuffs and you are taken away. And by the way, there will be three times as many police here as you, so don't mess around with us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: There was clergy out here last night. They were trying to do it. They were not given the freedoms they were given the first time around. But, you know, leadership is often about being present, Don, and we just haven't seen the names and bold-faced, you know, presences that you would expect to see in a situation like this. Do you think that's fair criticism?
LEMON: I absolutely do. Yesterday I was very critical of Mayor Giuliani because I thought what he said on the morning shows on Sunday, it came off as racist. He said it wrong. But I think he's absolutely right. I think the mayor knows how to run a big city. I think, quite honestly, in my estimation, there's been too much political correctness trying to appease protesters. And I don't mean to appease (ph) people who are out there peacefully. There was nothing peaceful about last night. There were no - it was hard to be peaceful in that crowd. But I think trying to appease some people I think that there needs to be a stronger hand with people who are marauding the streets and people who are -- had the potential of setting fires -- we saw what happened -- had a potential of harming people. We saw that played out.
So I think the mayor was absolutely right in his comments. There has been a vacuum of leadership here. But also I think there's been an over - it's been overly politically correct in many ways. Not -- I don't want to offend anyone. I don't want to come off as racist. It doesn't matter what color a - someone who is marauding or looting is, if they're black, white, purple or green. If you're breaking the law, you have the potential to break the law, then he is right, you need to be arrested and you need to be held accountable.
CUOMO: You're shaking your head?
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I just saw it differently. First of all, that -- especially when things first went bad, the vast majority of people out there were peaceful and they were trying to be peaceful.
LEMON: That's not true.
JONES: I was at -
LEMON: Van, that's not true. We were out here last night. That's not true.
JONES: We can - sir, sir, sir, we were out there together. You had your view. I had my view now. The vast, vast majority of people out there at the very beginning were trying to be peaceful. Then you saw way down the street, you saw a bunch of knuckleheads start a bunch of nonsense. Then they started bombarding with tear gas. Most of the people who were out there for a good reason started to leave in large numbers. That boiled it down to a very small number of people. The small number of people who were left were either social bloggers and videographers or people who were out there trying to start something. So --
LEMON: So the social bloggers and videographers were the people who were looting and burning down buildings? (inaudible) justice -
JONES: No, all that's - Don, Don, don't do this to me, Don. Don't -
LEMON: No, I'm just asking and being honest. I was out there last night too.
JONES: There were two - we were out there together. We got tear gassed together. And there were two -
CUOMO: You don't seem too together right now, I'll tell you that.
JONES: No, but -
(CROSS TALK)
CUOMO: All right, hold on a second. Hold on a second. What did you -
JONES: Yes.
CUOMO: Explain the part that Don's talking about. The looting was going on by large numbers of people.
JONES: Yes. Well, listen, there were large numbers of people out there. There were grown men out there crying. There were large numbers of people out there. They were not out there to cause trouble. Once you saw -- the trouble makes started, and we all got bombarded with tear gas, most of the people who were out there for good left in large numbers. That boiled it down. Now, you're right, to a smaller group of people.
LEMON: Smaller number of people were then -
JONES: It's terrible (inaudible).
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, one thing that seemed really odd to me was the timing and the planning. I mean we knew that the grand jury had reached a decision by probably around noon. Then we knew that an announcement about the announcement was going to be made around 5:00 from Governor Nixon. Why wait until 9:00 p.m. Eastern, 8:00 p.m. here, in the dark.
CUOMO: Their answer is pretty solid. Their answer is, let the schools (inaudible), let the businesses be closed, let there be less people on the streets to be affected.
HOSTIN: But, Chris, many of the schools were already closed. We knew the National Guard had been moved in a day before. A lot of the businesses were already boarded up and closed.
CUOMO: You think they held it too long.
HOSTIN: I think they held it too long and I think actually it was very reckless to try to control a crowd in the dark. Who does that? So the planning from the very beginning was bizarre.
LEMON: Sunny is right, it's - it's like the anticipation of a ballgame or an event, it's just - people are -- what is he going to say, what are they going to say? Is he going to be indicted? Is he not going to be indicted? Why is the prosecutor speaking so long? She's right about that.
But I have to say, Van, I'm sorry, you're wrong. The small number of people out there may have started off as peaceful, but most of the people who were out last night and (inaudible) we're not blind and -
HOSTIN: But I think we can all agree that looting is illegal and disappointing to see.
LEMON: Yes, the looters and the people who were burning, the people who were yelling and the people who were running -
JONES: Let me say one more thing.
LEMON: Hang on one second, let me finish. When people say why aren't you reporting on the peaceful people? How do you know who is peaceful in a crowd of people who are racing towards you? How do police know whether it's water, or urine, or a molotov cocktail in a bottle? People say why are they getting upset, why are they arresting people?
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Here's one circumstance just to tie this one part together and move on to what happened with the grand jury. Here's what we do know, people keep likening this to Los Angeles. It was not Los Angeles, and God forbid if it becomes anything like Los Angeles. There were a hundred people killed there and many hundreds. That didn't happen last night. That goes to what your proportionality was last night. If we truly had huge numbers of people here intent on violence -
JONES: Exactly.
CUOMO: We would have had it in huge numbers, and we didn't. Let's just leave that part at that. Why, why not?
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: I can't let this stand.
CUOMO: All right, go ahead.
JONES: This is an insult to the people who were out there last night who were trying to - -
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Let him finish, let him finish.
JONES: You have had your turn. Sir, you have had your turn.
CUOMO: Don, let him finish so we can move on.
JONES: I am going to speak now.
CUOMO: Go ahead, Van.
JONES: Now listen, what was just said is an insult to the people of Ferguson who have done more than 100 trainings for nonviolence. You said there was no leadership out there. The leadership --
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: Will you let me finish, Don? Don, will you let me --
LEMON: You're attributing things to me that I didn't say.
CUOMO: Go ahead, go ahead.
JONES: It is unfair to the people of Ferguson who put in tremendous amounts of work to try to keep a lid on things who were out there trying. The idea that people only came out for negative reasons is not true. The other thing is, the idea that people were being too PC. That is in fact not true either. You saw large numbers of police who were saying exactly what needed to be said, you have to get out of the street. You cannot, remember, order after order, and after those orders came, here comes the tear gas. So a lot of mythology that's being created, and it's not fair to the people who were out there trying to - -
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Hold on, hold on.
LEMON: This has nothing to do with the fair people of Ferguson and the people who wanted peaceful protests. Of course they have the right to protest, but you cannot say the majority of people who were out there last night were peaceful protesters.
CUOMO: Well, he can, he can, that's his opinion.
LEMON: That's exactly - - that's not right.
CUOMO: But, guys, look, let's be a little bit - - Let's be a little bit better than what we were dealing with last night. You guys disagree on the point, you both lived it. Let's just leave it like that for now.
LEMON: I agree with you about the people of Ferguson.
CUOMO: All right, good. Take it, take the agreement where you find it.
Grand jury.
HOSTIN: Yes.
CUOMO: Rudy Giuliani says he doesn't even blink, he says probable cause, not even close. A prosecutor can't bring a case like this, you can't even win it. He could have never won this. We've heard a lot of people say this prosecutor couldn't have won this case. Ethically you can't even bring it to a grand jury then if you don't even think you have a shot at bringing the case in the first place.
HOSTIN: And he did bring it to the grand jury.
CUOMO: That's right.
HOSTIN: So obviously he must have thought that there was enough probable - - there was enough evidence to bring before the grand jury for possible charges. And I have to tell you, the standard for probable cause is so very low, it's not beyond a reasonable doubt. It's just a tipping of the scales. Is it a crime probably was committed.
CUOMO: Well, when you have people, you know.
HOSTIN: There was enough for probable cause.
CUOMO: Let's use Van and Don. They're telling stories, they were at the same thing, they saw the same thing, they're telling totally inconsistent stories.
HOSTIN: Then that's probable cause.
CUOMO: Grand juror? But they're going to dismiss them both, and then they're going to listen to Darren Wilson even more.
HOSTIN: But that's probable cause.
JONES: That's the point.
HOSTIN: And I have to tell you, I read Darren Wilson's testimony last night.
CUOMO: It's not probable cause if you don't think it's probable.
HOSTIN: It is probable cause.
CUOMO: Because you don't understand what happened.
HOSTIN: Well, that goes to the process. That goes to the fact that this prosecutor - -
CUOMO: That wasn't a suggestion of what you guys were saying. I'm just it as a hypothetical.
HOSTIN: That goes to the fact that this prosecutor conducted this grand jury in a way that we've never seen before. He threw every single piece of evidence in front of this grand jury, evidence that would even not be admissible at trial, that is not how you conduct a grand jury process. It was less than transparent.
CUOMO: But isn't that - - Why isn't that an error of inclusion? Why could an error in disclosure, why isn't that a good thing, in other words?
JONES: I'll tell you why. If you give a finder of fact more evidence than ever, and less guidance than ever, what you do it's called a data dump. It's a document dump, and you wind up with people unable to make sense of it. There was probable cause.
CUOMO: You think with all this scrutiny on this guy - -
JONES: Absolutely.
CUOMO: That he would do something like that?
HOSTIN: Absolutely, absolutely.
JONES: That's in fact what just happened. The (inaudible).
HOSTIN: And there's just no question that this was not a prosecutor seeking an indictment.
JONES: It's not normal.
HOSTIN: I've been in front of grand juries, Chris, I've presented cases in front of grand juries. This is not how it is done. You present a streamline case, you guide the jury, you provide guidance in terms of law.
JONES: Leadership.
HOSTIN: You provide leadership.
JONES: Leadership.
HOSTIN: It is the prosecutor's show. This prosecutor was not seeking an indictment. The other thing I want to mention very quickly.
CUOMO: Please.
HOSTIN: It was a 92-page sort of testimony from Officer Wilson. I've never read something so fanciful. He described an encounter that I just don't think happened in that way.
JONES: Wouldn't work in Hollywood.
HOSTIN: For the first time, he said that - -
CUOMO: Well, it worked on the grand jury, though.
HOSTIN: For the first time he said that Michael Brown, in broad daylight, was reaching into his waistband. He said that Michael Brown was so strong it was like a 5-year-old against Hulk Hogan. Remember, Officer Wilson, 6'4", over 200 pounds. This is not a tiny guy, this is not a small guy. This is supposed to be a trained police officer.
CUOMO: But the grand jury believed it.
HOSTIN: It's bizarre.
CUOMO: It's not like just the prosecutor believed it.
HOSTIN: But we don't know what the grand jury believed because we don't know the vote.
CUOMO: True.
HOSTIN: We haven't heard from the grand jurors, and we're not going to, and that goes to show you that this prosecutor knew that this process was not going to be as transparent as he claimed it was going to be.
CUOMO: Final word on this and then I want to ask Don about tonight.
JONES: Good, well, listen, if the prosecutor doesn't prosecute, it's impossible to get an indictment. And what you have is a prosecutor who was not prosecuting. He didn't say listen, I went in there, I tried to get manslaughter, I couldn't get it. He didn't say I went in there, I tried to get jaywalking, I couldn't get it. He didn't try to get anything, and therefore he did not get anything, and that's what we're dealing with.
CUOMO: Do you feel that you know that?
JONES: I feel very, very certain.
HOSTIN: Absolutely.
JONES: That given the conduct of this prosecutor -
CUOMO: Because that's not what he says.
JONES: Listen, I'm an attorney, she's an attorney. I'm telling you, I've seen cases like this a million times. I've never seen (inaudible).
CUOMO: When he came out last night, he said exactly the opposite. He's like, we did everything.
JONES: You know what he said? You know what he said?
CUOMO: We did it the right way.
HOSTIN: It was intellectually dishonest.
JONES: It was intellectually dishonest, and the people of Ferguson are very wise. I'm not talking about the looters, I'm talking about the vast majority of people in Ferguson. They said from the beginning this guy can't be trusted to do a good job. Please, governor, send in someone we can trust. The governor stood down, refused to send in a special prosecutor, and we got exactly what the people of Ferguson said we're going to get.
HOSTIN: A lack of leadership.
JONES: A lack of leadership.
HOSTIN: All around.
LEMON: Let the lawyers handle the legal part (inaudible).
CUOMO: Here's what we need to worry about most right now, the changes that need to happen in this community, and many communities like this one, are not going to happen today. But we are going to have day goes into night, and we're going to have to worry about another situation. Do you think that they can get their act together and figure out how to do it better tonight?
LEMON: I think they're going to have to, there's no question they're going to have to. And again, listen, I don't disagree with what Van said. I don't think, though, that we saw the vast majority of the good people of Ferguson on the streets last night. That's not what we saw play out last night.
CUOMO: Well, certainly the situation brought out the worst.
LEMON: But they're going to have to.
CUOMO: Of everyone. So, here's the thing, Thanksgiving two days away. We have to start thinking about our blessings, not to be Pollyannaish, but to be pragmatic about how to be better going forward.
JONES: Let me say something about this.
CUOMO: Yes, go ahead.
JONES: To the young people in Ferguson who were trying to do the right thing, you're not wrong to care about your neighbor.
LEMON: Absolutely right.
JONES: You're not wrong to try to organize for positive change, and you're not wrong to feel hurt and sad. You can show more leadership today by saying listen, this is not how we want to show ourselves to the world. It's disrespectful to the Mike Brown family to do this again. The young people now can step up where the older generation has failed, and I beg them to do that.
LEMON: Van, you're right, but that's not what we saw last night. Those are the people we saw last night.
CUOMO: Be better, be the change you want to see. Sunny, you know what - - Thanksgiving is two days away, hug it out.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Back to you in New York.
ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Okay, Chris, it's been wonderful to see your reporting out there. You've given us a real front row seat on all of the intensity in Ferguson.
MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Appreciate it.
CAMEROTA: Thanks so much for that reporting and to all of the panel out there also.
PEREIRA: Yes, we had a great team out there in Ferguson. Thanks so much guys.
CAMEROTA: All right, we now have our very first look at some of the testimony and the photos the grand juries used while it weighed charges against Darren Wilson. So, let's bring in Paul Callan, CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor, and Jeffrey Toobin, CNN senior legal analyst and former federal prosecutor.
Gentlemen, great to have you back with us. The testimony from Darren Wilson is more than an inch thick here that we've been poring through this morning, and it is compelling and fascinating to hear. I want to touch on something that Sunny Hostin just brought up. She said it was fanciful, the things that he was saying were fanciful, because he does use almost cartoonish imagery to talk about the first altercation at the car with Michael Brown. Let me read you from his testimony. He says, first, when I grabbed him, this is when they had started to get into a physical fight, the only way I can describe it is I felt like a 5-year-old holding onto Hulk Hogan, that's just how big he felt and how small I felt just from grasping his arm. He then goes on to say, another thing after they're in the fight, when he looks up at Michael Brown's face, he says the only way I can describe it, it looks like a demon. That's how angry he looked. He comes back towards me again with his hands up.
Jeffrey, this gives us a real window into the mind-set of Darren Wilson while all this was happening.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: It does. He - - - But it is worth remembering, you know, that scene in the car, that initial scene that he's talking about, the gun went off twice. I mean, that's very serious business.
CAMEROTA: Darren Wilson shot his gun twice.
TOOBIN: Right.
CAMEROTA: In defense.
TOOBIN: You can understand why that he felt like he needed to use vivid language. I still am less convinced that the confrontation outside the car, where Michael Brown died, he was justified, but you know, you can understand why he was deeply threatened by what went on in that car. PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know,
and I think just focusing on that imagery, obviously he's referring to a cartoon character when he's talking about those things, but it doesn't surprise me because he's trying to be, I think, as vivid in getting his point across to the grand jury that I was terrified. And I think if you step back and look at the whole picture, it starts in that convenience store, and people should remember that video. You've got big Michael Brown, grabbing a little guy by the neck, throwing him up against the wall. Now, by the way, that's literally ten minutes before he encounters Officer Wilson.
CAMEROTA: But Darren Wilson hadn't seen that video.
CALLAN: Well, no, no, but I'm not talking - - but I'm talking about when you try to figure out who's who in this saga. Is it possible that Mike Brown acted in this violent a way, because what happens next is Wilson says, I backed the car up when I became aware that they were the robbery suspects. They pushed the door closed, and then Brown gets into the car, tries to get my gun. I could feel his finger on the trigger, says Wilson, and the gun then discharges twice. Wilson was afraid he was going to be killed. So, in Wilson's mind, someone has just tried to kill him, and now they're trying to escape, and that person, by the way, is a wanted felon. So what does he do? He gets out of the car, and pursues, and I think the grand jury looked at this and said what's a cop supposed to do in that situation?
CAMEROTA: Because - - and what is a cop supposed to do? After that situation, where you have an altercation, a physical altercation with someone at your police cruiser and gunshots are fired, you can't drive away from that, can you?
TOOBIN: Sure you can. You absolutely can. I mean, there is no reason to initiate a confrontation if you can avoid it. There is part of the being a cop is to get help, especially if you feel like you can't handle the situation by yourself.
CALLAN: He's already radioed for help.
TOOBIN: He's already radioed for help, but you know, to me - -
CALLAN: He's supposed to run away from the bad guys?
TOOBIN: Well, no, the situation - - or stay away from the bad guys.
CALLAN: Stay away and then do what?
(CROSSTALK)
CALLAN: No, no, then do what? Then he runs off the street, into whatever, you know, housing areas are there, and he gets away, and then maybe is a danger to the public.
(CROSSTALK)
CALLAN: He only knows that Michael Brown is a guy who was just involved in a robbery of a convenience store. PEREIRA: But the community will push back on that point you make, Paul, and say he stole cigarettes.
CALLAN: With the use of force which is defined as a strong-arm robbery. That's a felony under Missouri law, New York law, anyplace else.
TOOBIN: True enough, but he also ended up dead.
CALLAN: Yes.
TOOBIN: And we don't have the death penalty for stealing cigarillos.
CALLAN: No, we don't.
TOOBIN: No.
CALLAN: We don't, but we can't have police - -
TOOBIN: And so I think there could be a - -
CALLAN: We can't have police forces that run away from people who have committed felonies.
PEREIRA: Let me pivot to another topic, because I'm very curious about any of - - you showed the ream of paper here from this testimony. Will any of that play into, we're looking down the line, now, would any of that play into a federal case if prosecutors decide to look at a federal case?
TOOBIN: Well, certainly this is the key evidence in a federal case, but given federal law, I think it's extremely unlikely that there will be federal charges.
PEREIRA: Because there's a different threshold they have to meet.
TOOBIN: Right. It's a harder threshold to meet, and it basically involves proving racial hostility, racial animus that would be required to be used for a federal prosecution. If they couldn't prove this.
PEREIRA: Here, right.
TOOBIN: It seems even more unlikely. Do you disagree, or do you - - ?
CALLAN: Oh, no.
TOOBIN: I mean, I thought you would agree about that.
CALLAN: We agree on one thing, but only one. You know, it's very difficult to make out a federal case here and I think, you there, there was a lot of talk.
PEREIRA: Civil case, do you think?
CALLAN: In the Zimmerman case about a federal case, you notice we haven't heard anything more about it, because they're hard cases to make. I think a civil case could be filed, it undoubtedly will be filed by the family, and you know something? It will depend on whether they get a sympathetic jury in that.
PEREIRA: Can I end on one last thing as we end this hour, because I think it's really important. The statement from Michael Brown Sr. calling for calm, because the scene that we saw with Chris and all of our reporters overnight is not the scene that they would have wanted for their son. Because, again, what we're looking for here is if the family can feel that they're going to get a measure of justice, right? A civil case, the potential for federal prosecution.
Can I bring up that statement from the father, because I think this is really telling, basically saying this is not the way they want Michael Brown's legacy to be remembered. "We are profoundly disappointed that the killer of our child will not face the consequences of his actions." And then he goes on to say that this is not what they would like. Here we are, "While we understand that many others share our pain, we ask that you channel your frustrations in ways that will make a positive change. We need to work together to fix the system that allowed this to happen."
TOOBIN: Those people who were breaking windows and setting cars on fire were betraying Michael Brown, they weren't honoring him.
CAMEROTA: On that note, we'll end this. Paul Callan and Jeffrey Toobin, thanks so much for being here.
CALLAN: Thank you.
CAMEROTA: Great. There's a lot more of our breaking news coverage from Ferguson. It's time for "NEWSROOM" with Carol Costello, Don Lemon, and Chris Cuomo.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Okay, you have that right. Thanks so much, have a great day. NEWSROOM starts now.
