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New Day

Ferguson Calmer: Protestors Clash with Police; Officer Wilson Speaks Out for First Time; Protests Erupt Across the Country; Major Storm Hampering Thanksgiving Travel; Ferguson Prosecutor Faces Backlash

Aired November 26, 2014 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

OFFICER DARREN WILSON, SHOT MICHAEL BROWN: I just felt the immense power that he had. It was like a five-year-old holding on to Hulk Hogan.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS: He turned around and put his hands up?

WILSON: No way. No way.

PROTESTERS: Hands up, don't shoot.

MICHAEL BROWN, SR., MICHAEL BROWN'S FATHER: We, the family, we encourage peaceful protests, but we do not encourage violence.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST, "CNN TONIGHT": We're looking at another police cruiser being torched.

CAPTAIN RON JOHNSON, MISSOURI HIGHWAY PATROL: In the recent history of our country, we have not seen anything like this.

LEMON: Much more aggressive police response.

M. BROWN: We still hurt. I feel like they just killed him again.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. It is Wednesday, November 26. We want to welcome our viewers in the United States and around the world to NEW DAY. I'm Chris Cuomo live near Ferguson, Missouri, where there has been a second night of violent clashes between police and protesters. Not as many as we witnessed Monday night, but the anger still very real, maybe more so. And the situation far from stable for reasons we will explain, Alisyn.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Chris, it's so great to have you there bringing us the latest from the ground. I'm Alisyn Camerota here with Michaela Pereira in New York and we're monitoring protests across the country. Many people reacting to hearing from Officer Darren Wilson in his own words for the first time. Wilson sat down for an interview and we will share that with you in one moment. But we want to start near Ferguson where Chris is standing by. So Chris, tell us what happened last night.

CUOMO: Well, there was a lot of reaction to what Wilson had to say, that's for sure, and we'll be talking about it. But there are a lot of reasons for the unrest here in Ferguson. Once again, the police department was a primary focus for protesters. The crowd tripled in size in front of that department in the span of an hour, seemingly to match the greater police presence and National Guard presence that we saw.

We're told 40 arrests were made. All night, people told us the same thing: this is about perceived injustice, feelings that things will not change, that they are alone, and that is why they took to the streets again.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO (voice-over): More police in riot gear. More National Guard out in the open, but still, more attempts to tear Ferguson apart.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hands up! Don't shoot! Hands up! Don't shoot!

CUOMO: A police car set ablaze by a small group of agitators.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anyone refusing to leave, you will be subject to arrest.

CUOMO: Police using more aggressive tactics, making arrests sooner.

(on camera): There's the arrest.

(voice-over): Tear gas necessary again, hanging in the air, as the scent of the moment.

R. JOHNSON: There are those that are stuck on violence that embed themselves with the peaceful protesters.

CUOMO: But all who hit the streets are outraged. What fuels their continued disobedience is obvious.

President Obama says it's not just made up that communities of color don't always believe they're being treated fairly.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's rooted in realities that have existed in this country for a long time.

CUOMO: Then came the next flashpoint, Officer Wilson saying the incident had nothing to do with race in an ABC News exclusive.

STEPHANOPOULOS: If Michael Brown were white, this would have gone down in exactly the same way?

WILSON: Yes.

STEPHANOPOULOS: No question?

WILSON: No question.

CUOMO: The officer says on that fateful morning on August 9, he saw black teenager Michael Brown and his friend walking in the middle of the street.

WILSON: I said, "Hey, come here for a minute."

And that's when he turned and said, "What the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) are you going to do about it?" and slammed my door shut on me.

CUOMO: Wilson says the teen hit him in excess of ten times, causing minor bruising and that there was a tussle over his gun.

WILSON: He's going to get this gun away from me. Something's going to happen, and I'm going to be dead. So I pull it the third time, and it finally goes off.

CUOMO: Wilson admits Brown runs away, but says it was his duty to give chase.

WILSON: My job isn't to just sit and wait, you know. I have to see where this guy goes.

CUOMO: Perhaps the most important point: the officer says Brown turned and charged toward him.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Some of the eyewitnesses have said when at that moment he turned around, he turned around and put his hands up.

WILSON: That would be uncorrect [SIC] -- incorrect.

STEPHANOPOULOS: No way?

WILSON: No way.

CUOMO: Dorian Johnson, Brown's friend and witness to the shooting, says he knows exactly what he saw.

DORIAN JOHNSON, BROWN'S FRIEND: I definitely saw my friend stop and put his hands up, being compliant after that, being fired upon, after already being struck with a bullet wound from Officer Darren Wilson's gun.

CUOMO: Wilson says there was not anything he could have done differently to prevent killing the 18-year-old.

WILSON: He kind of starts leaning forward like he's going to tackle me. And I look down my barrel of my gun and I fired. And what I saw was his head, and that's where it went.

CUOMO: After the verdict, Brown's parents say they're profoundly disappointed.

M. BROWN: I feel like they just killed him again. CUOMO: The officer's response.

WILSON: I think those are grieving parents. They're mourning the loss of their son. I'm sorry for their son's loss of life. It wasn't the intention of that day. It's what occurred that day.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Something you think that will always haunt you?

WILSON: I don't think it's a haunting. It's always going to be something that happened.

CUOMO: The officer's response offers small consolation.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: It is certainly a haunting event to this community. But Ferguson has always been about more than just this one shooting. The proof is now in the protests, spreading to more than 170 cities across the country. A hundred and seventy.

Thousands of people in New York, L.A., Chicago, Washington, Boston, Baltimore and so many more cities, mostly peaceful marches. Look, some are there for bad reason, but most have Mike Brown on their lips, but problems with the police where they live on their minds.

Let's bring in Stephanie Elam. She's been in front of Ferguson Police Department all night long covering the story -- Steph.

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Chris, good morning.

It is a completely different scene. I've been out here all night in Ferguson, and what we've seen on the streets tonight versus the night before, two very different stories.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELAM (voice-over): Sirens ring out in Ferguson, Missouri, demonstrators facing off with police for the second night in a row. Tensions coming to a boil, as protesters overturn and set fire to a police cruiser after a day of relatively peaceful protests. Police and National Guard responding with a heavier hand than the night before, arresting 44 protesters, using hoses and pepper spray, to disburse the crowd.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We will get justice by any means necessary.

ELAM: This as anger over the grand jury's decision spreads across the country.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do we want?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice! UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When do we want it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now!

ELAM: Demonstrators flooding the streets yesterday in about 170 cities nationwide: blocking bridges, tunnels, and major highways from coast to coast.

Thousands of protesters snake their way through the streets of New York City, jamming traffic, holding signs and chanting loudly.

Across the country in downtown Los Angeles, protesters rallied, knocking down fences and blocking the 101 Freeway with roadblocks and debris.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do we want a revolution?

ELAM: In Oakland, protests took a more violent turn, news helicopters capturing footage of vandals smashing windows, looting local businesses and lighting bonfires.

In Minneapolis, a moment of rage as a car plows through a group of demonstrator, running over a protestor's leg.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was honking and getting mad that people wouldn't move. And then, he just plowed through.

ELAM: According to authorities, the woman was taken to the hospital and is being treated for very minor injuries. The incident currently under investigation.

In Cincinnati, 15 demonstrators arrested after scaling concrete barriers and briefly shutting down Interstate 75.

Denver police also responding to protesters trying to move on to their interstate, using smoke bombs and pepper spray to deter the demonstrators.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I said mace, pull out the mace. Mace everybody.

ELAM: From Atlanta to Boston, the nation's capital, protesters taking to the streets and making their voices heard as authorities attempt to contain a growing sense of outrage across the country.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ELAM: And Chris, I spent a good amount of time out on West Florissant Avenue. That is the street where we saw so much of the mayhem and unrest two nights ago. Very different story tonight -- last night. It was blocked off. It was cordoned off. The National Guard was out there, as well. No one was on the street. It was the kind of response that many of us had expected the previous night when we got that ruling about what the grand jury had decided for the fate of Officer Wilson -- Chris.

CUOMO: The question is, what will it take for this community to start healing and have the protests end?

Thank you very much, Stephanie. We'll be back with you later on.

Here's one thing that we know for sure. You know, gas canisters like this cannot be the main mode of communication of police and this community.

So let's bring in Lizz Brown, columnist at the "St. Louis American"; and retired Lieutenant General Russel Honore. You'll remember his leadership in the U.S. Army after Hurricane Katrina made him very well-known around the country.

Thanks to both of you for being with us this morning.

LIZ BROWN, COLUMNIST, "ST. LOUIS AMERICAN": Good morning.

CUOMO: Lizz, what will make this community stop taking to the streets and start trusting that there is something better ahead?

L. BROWN: When they're given some information, when they're given a response, when they're given something to believe that things are going to change.

There's nothing that this community has experienced in these last couple of days, over these last 100 days, over these last 100 years that law enforcement is going to change and treat African-American people as human beings, and look into the faces of African-American people and act lawfully.

There's nothing -- there's no -- there's been no message; there's been no words from any institution, any law enforcement institution that things have changed. So why would the onus be upon African-American people to change when there's been no change offered to them?

CUOMO: So what I'm hearing you saying is that what happened with Michael Brown is an example of a culture of policing that they don't believe will change, and that was somewhat cemented by the outcome of this legal system, although they're somewhat separate issues.

So how do they get that comfort? What kind of concrete things do you think will make a difference? Culture is a hard thing to change.

L. BROWN: It's a very hard thing to change. And we are still -- the words of "no indictment" are still floating in the air, Chris. I mean, it's 48 hours after the African-American community, that America was told that it doesn't matter what the evidence is. It doesn't matter what the witnesses say. It doesn't matter. This police officer is not even going to be taken to a trial in public to find out what happened.

And so, how can -- how on earth can you get to healing? How on earth can you get to trust when the words of "no indictment" are still floating in the air? CUOMO: Right, but you can't say no indictment and that they'll never

be any testing of what happened here. Because that's what no indictment means, Lizz. I mean, obviously, many here, including yourself, don't like it. But it went to a grand jury. It met for a long time. A prosecutor dumped all this evidence on them, maybe too much. And they came to a conclusion.

L. BROWN: Well Chris, it's not evidence that we have seen. What we've experienced is a grand jury that was man-handled by the prosecutor, prosecutor Bob McCulloch. We had a grand jury that was handled in a way that no other grand jury in the history of this jurisdiction has ever been handled. We have a prosecutor that has given us some information, information that doesn't lead to a belief that things were done fairly.

Let me give you an example. You have a police officer going into a grand jury. And the issue of credibility is always if you're really trying to get to something, you try to find out about the credibility.

When a police officer walks into a grand jury room, he's not vetted. It's the automatic understanding that he is telling the truth. I mean, when I have voir dired witnesses, when I have voir dired jurors, what I try to get to is whether or not they're going to believe a police officer over another person.

CUOMO: Right. Right.

L. BROWN: Well, walking into a grand jury, the grand jurors are going to believe him. And when you read the transcript from what he said, no one challenged any of the absurd illogical things that he said. So the people understand that.

CUOMO: Well, Lizz, look, we -- Yes, I take your point on that. People have to look at the testimony for themselves. And how the grand jury was conducted is certainly going to be an issue going forward.

Let me get to General Honore, as well. What we saw in the change, more cops being more aggressive, getting at little things before they become big things, even though it seems more hostile when you're watching it in action, is that the right way to control the bad aspects of protests?

LT. GEN. RUSSEL HONORE (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Absolutely. You have to have enough capacity on the ground, meaning troops on the ground, uniformed officers, that can respond and protect people from being hurt, as well as protect property.

And I think they came a lot closer last night to also having patience. I mean, commend the police across the country for having patience to allow people to practice civil disobedience by walking in the street. And that goes a long ways, Chris, to show that the police are learning, and they are allowing people to protest and practice some civil disobedience by closing the street down, but giving them the opportunity to be seen, be heard and to try and force a political solution. And I may say this, Chris. This will not change until we come up with

a political narrative on what's going to change as a result of what we've seen happen in Ferguson, because people across the country are talking. And they're acting.

CUOMO: General, I think that's a very strong point, and you're right. Ferguson has always been as much about Mike Brown as it is a metaphor. We're seeing that across the country now. We need solutions, there's no question about that.

Lizz Brown, General Honore, thank you very much for the perspective, as always.

L. BROWN: Thank you, Chris.

CUOMO: Alisyn, back to you.

CAMEROTA: Chris, thanks so much. We have other news to talk about. Michaela, what's going on?

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Conveniently, I'm located right next to you.

CAMEROTA: Thank goodness.

PEREIRA: My pleasure. All right. Let's take a look at those headlines right now. Good morning, everyone.

Two FBI agents have been shot in St. Louis County. Police say they -- the agents were responding to a report of a person barricaded inside a home. Both suffered nonlife-threatening injuries. Now, at this point there is no indication that this incident is related to protests in nearby Ferguson. We will bring you more details as they become available.

A senior ISIS leader has been killed by a coalition air strike in Iraq northwest of Baghdad. Senan Meteeb, a so-called prince of the group's military, was killed when strikes hit a convoy of 15 cars Tuesday.

In the meantime, two Minnesota men are facing conspiracy charges, suspected of helping ISIS and looking to link up with the terrorist group. Abdullah Yusuf is in custody. Abdi Nur remains at large. He is thought to have made it to Syria.

University of Virginia officials are vowing a zero-tolerance policy going forward on sexual assaults. A legal firm was assigned to help the school come up with new guidelines to combat sexual violence on their campus. UVA board members held an emergency meeting following those explosive revelations of alleged gang rape at a fraternity house and an admission by a school dean that some students avoided expulsion even after admitting wrongdoing.

A majority of Americans still disapprove of the way President Obama is handling immigration reform. Let's look at the latest CNN/ORC poll. Here we go. Oh, we don't have it. Let me tell you. Fifty-three percent say they don't like the president's handling of the issue. That's actually an improvement for President Obama. It was 62 percent back in September.

Americans also disapprove of the president's use of executive action, 56 percent to 41. And in terms of job approval, just 44 percent approve of the job President Obama is doing. That's hovering near an all-time low.

CAMEROTA: All right, Michaela, we need to talk about a big storm that is brewing, and that is not a metaphor. There really is a storm set to slam the East Coast.

PEREIRA: How about the timing of this one, huh?

CAMEROTA: It couldn't be worse. Because everyone is preparing to head out for Thanksgiving. More than 40 million people are set to drive somewhere for the holiday and about 3.5 million people are going to be headed to the airports.

PEREIRA: It's going to be some headaches.

CAMEROTA: So let's get right to meteorologist Indra Petersons. She's keeping track of it for us from New York's LaGuardia Airport. How is it looking?

INDRA PETERSONS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Right now, it looks OK. That's the reason I'm still smiling. If you actually look at the board of arrivals and departures right here behind me, I've only seen one cancellation likely, not even due to the weather, because the weather has not moved in yet.

But keep in mind, it will. Thirty million people are expected to be affected in the northeast today by winter weather. Let's talk about the totals. It's these major hubs, and on the biggest travel day of the year. D.C., New York City, Boston, Philadelphia, all looking to see the weather change quickly and drastically.

The totals themselves, about three to six inches for New York City; also out towards Boston. And these aren't the biggest numbers. If you actually go just a little bit farther to the west, you're talking about over a foot of snow in the inland areas. Also in through New England, same problem there.

So really, if you're on the roads, as well today, you have the similar problem. You're pretty much right on that line in between the wintry mix. So to the right of I-95, you're looking at rain. But you go a little bit farther to the west, and you're going to be talking about heavy snowfall. It can catch motorists off guard. It's something you want to be aware of and you want to be prepared for.

And keep in mind what you're looking outdoors right now, that's not the story. It's 50 degrees in towards the northeast right now. Temperatures are dropping by the hour. In fact, 30-degree temperatures expected just two hours away. That's when we switch over from rain to snow. That's why it's a race to get out before everything changes.

Let's talk about some of the other hubs, what's expected out there today. Northeast, we know, it's going to be a mess. But you've got to remember compounding delays, places like Chicago, also looking for a little bit of a wintry mix in through the overnight hours. Out towards Atlanta, it looks good. D.C. could be talking about some wind out towards Denver. And then out towards the Pacific Northwest, even some rain.

So hopefully, everything is OK. Thanksgiving Day parade, though, does look good. I've got a positive, guys. Got a positive.

CAMEROTA: There you go.

PEREIRA: And just think how easily fooled. If you look outside right now you're like, "We'll be fine."

CAMEROTA: Right. "What's the big deal?" Yes.

PEREIRA: Not according to Indra. Not the case.

CAMEROTA: Indra, thanks so much for alerting us. We'll check back in with you, of course.

So there's controversy this morning over how the chief prosecutor handled the shooting death of Michael Brown. Did Robert McCulloch taint the grand jury process? We'll take a look at that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: You are watching NEW DAY, and a big question mark still hangs over the prosecutor who brought the Ferguson case to a grand jury and never chose to charge Officer Darren Wilson himself. He has defended the process and the result. But many are asking, is he the reason Officer Darren Wilson was cleared? We have CNN's Ana Cabrera joining us now.

You've been following this part of the story. What do we know?

ANA CABRERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, prosecutor Bob McCulloch, he's been at center of controversy, really, from the beginning. His father, who was a police officer killed in the line of duty, was shot by an African-American man. And that's one reason some protesters thought there should be a special prosecutor appointed in this case, for fear of bias.

He insisted all along he would be fair. But now that a decision has been made by the grand jury, there are still many questioning whether his office did the right thing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CABRERA (voice-over): St. Louis County prosecutor Bob McCulloch under fire...

M. BROWN: We're still hurting. It's -- basically, I feel like they just killed him again.

CABRERA: ... facing fresh criticism for his handling of the Michael Brown shooting case and his announcement of the grand jury decision after dark. Tension that had been building for hours erupting into chaos, causing some to question the timing.

JAMES KNOWLES, MAYOR, FERGUSON, MISSOURI: Waiting for the announcement last night was wondering what the wisdom or the thought process was behind waiting until that hour. I don't know that it would have been any better. I think ultimately those who wished to create disruption were bent on doing that.

CABRERA: Others left wondering about the grand jury process.

GLORIA J. BROWNE-MARSHALL, CONSTITUTIONAL LAW PROFESSOR, JOHN JAY COLLEGE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE: He said that there was a problem with the evidence conflicting testimony. That's up to a jury in a regular criminal proceeding to decide the credibility of the witnesses.

CABRERA: McCulloch admits this case was handled differently than others, including remaining neutral and calling every single witness to testify, even Officer Darren Wilson.

MCCULLOCH: In this case, we thought, I thought much more important to bring in the actual witness.

CABRERA: McCulloch defended himself in our interview on September 24. And he hoped releasing testimony and evidence to the public, also unusual, would ultimately prove that his team was fair. And McCulloch didn't shy away from discussing how the media may have made his job harder.

MCCULLOCH: The most significant challenge encountered in this investigation has been the 24-hour news cycle and its insatiable appetite for something, for anything to talk about.

CABRERA: But even as facts continue to come out and people hear the complete story for the first time, many members of this community still lack trust and confidence in a system that's supposed to insure justice for all.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You got a whole bunch of young people feel like the system don't work for them. So why should they obey a system that don't work for them? Why?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CABRERA: McCulloch declined an interview with us yesterday. But his executive assistant did put out a statement that essentially addressed the timing of that announcement, saying that they needed some time to try to coordinate with law enforcement, with the schools, with businesses, at least in an effort to put plans in place to keep people safe -- Chris.

CUOMO: Well, they've got a lot on their hands. But what the prosecutor did, his decision not to charge himself, to go to the grand jury, and how he used that tool of a grand jury, is certainly going to be ripe for criticism for some time to come.

Ana Cabrera, thank you very much.

Alisyn, back to you in New York.

CAMEROTA: Chris, we're going to debate that right now. Here to discuss more about Robert McCulloch are HLN legal analyst and defense -- criminal defense attorney, Joey Jackson; and CNN legal analyst, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor Paul Callan. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us.

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Good morning.

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Good morning.

CAMEROTA: So you know, many in the community feel that Robert McCulloch was never impartial. They feel that he, in fact, tainted the process. He has long familial ties with the police. They think he always sides with the police. Joey, should he have appointed a special prosecutor?

JACKSON: I do believe that. And here's why, Alisyn. Notwithstanding the fact you can talk about the incidents that happened with his father and the African-American, you can talk about...

CAMEROTA: That he was killed. His father was a police officer and was killed by a suspect.

JACKSON: Yes. Absolutely. And we could talk about that, and you could talk about bias, but there's a more fundamental reason why I think he should have appointed a special prosecutor or at least not handled it himself. And here's why.

You rely upon the police every day, Alisyn, when you're a prosecutor. You depend upon them. You give them your support, your resources. They give those resources back to you. It's significant, because that's how the process works. If I'm a prosecutor, in order to build cases and in order to be successful, I need you.

And if I work with you every day, Alisyn, and I believe in you and I trust in you, and now I'm switching to the role of investigating you, how is that possible? How could that potentially be objective? And for that very reason, there's an error and flaw in the process where, when it involves a police officer, you leave no stone unturned, but you leave it to someone who can do it and engender the trust and the respect of the community. And I think in this instance that could have been very helpful.

PEREIRA: You could not disagree more, Paul?

CALLAN: Here's why I disagree. And Joey Jackson and I do a lot of commentary here at the network. I have great respect for him. A lot of things he doesn't place a lot of emphasis on is he's a very respected former New York prosecutor himself. I'm a former New York City prosecutor. He, Joey Jackson, close ties to law enforcement.

But you know something? If Joey Jackson were the person investigating this case, I wouldn't say, "Let's disqualify him, because he's worked with the cops closely in the past." I would say, "You know something? He's a guy with integrity. I'll trust his investigation."

Now let's turn this to what happened in St. Louis.

PEREIRA: but you can see what -- the optics of it for some are troubling.

CALLAN: Well, yes. Optics is the word that gets used, and I think it's legitimate. Because there are two things that have to happen in a good criminal investigation. And I and Joey disagree on this. I think the grand jury reached the right result on the facts of this case.

But you have to have public confidence in the result, because if the public thinks, even mistakenly, it's unfair, then the system doesn't work.

CAMEROTA: That is what the public thinks. That is what the public thinks, the majority.

CALLAN: The public did not have faith in McCulloch because of his father having been killed by an African-American, when his father was a cop. It's an old incident, and a lot of prosecutors have former -- have law enforcement ties. But maybe because of the level of public distrust, we should have had a special prosecutor. I don't disagree that it's -- it should have been seriously considered.

CAMEROTA: But Joey, can the prosecutor's attitude and mindset color the attitude of the grand jury?

JACKSON: One hundred percent. And here's why that was particularly relevant here.

You had the district attorney go into that grand jury that had been considering multiple cases for weeks, Alisyn, and then say to them, "Well, this case is somehow different. We're going to follow a different protocol here." And when you have cases that you've handled with that grand jury, and they see you're handling a case differently, what message does that send?

In addition to that, Alisyn, what I would like to know is in those other cases, how many potential defendants testify and how were they treated?

Now when I say that, what happens is, when you testify in a grand jury -- Paul, you present a lot of cases to the grand jury and went in with defendants in grand juries -- a prosecutor eats them up. I've questioned defendants in the grand jury. "You're talking about injuries, sir. Let me show the grand jury the injuries. Are you talking about that scratch to your face? Is that what you're saying was such -- so injurious to you? That's what harmed you?" You press them. And what that does is it sends the signal that you're questioning what they're saying and the conflicts in which they're saying it.

PEREIRA: Paul, here's a point. If you read this through, the questioning of Officer Wilson from the defense -- or from the prosecution is a very different feel. Some will even say that there were softballs essentially thrown at him...

CALLAN: Well, let me tell you about that.

PEREIRA: ... while the questions of the others was much more intense.

CALLAN: Let me talk about that. There are so many misconceptions about this case. Because No. 1, a lot of people commenting on this case have never entered a grand jury room. Now Joey Jackson has and I have, because we're former prosecutors. But unless you're a prosecutor, you've never even been in a grand jury room unless you've been a grand juror. So a lot of people who are talking about this don't know what they're talking about.

I disagree with Joey in his analysis about the cross-examination, only because of this. When a case is presented to a grand jury, a prosecutor as he's listening to witness testimony, his job really is to try to determine what's truthful and what's not. What's right and what's just.

Now, let's say hypothetically because of the investigation, the prosecutor started to conclude that maybe Wilson was telling the truth. Is he supposed to beat Wilson up and try to make him look bad if Wilson is telling the truth?

JACKSON: Yes.

CALLAN: No, he's not. He's not. That's not how cross-examination works. You're cross-examining somebody you think may be inaccurate in their testimony. You don't aggressively cross-examine someone you think is truthful.

JACKSON: The problem I have with that is that's a determination for the jurors. In other words, as a prosecutor, I don't unilaterally determine who I trust and who I believe and who I don't. That's up to people who evaluate that.

CALLAN: So you're try to make truthful witnesses look bad?

JACKSON: No, no, no. Not look bad, Paul. All I'm trying to do is to get at the truth.

(CROSSTALK)

JACKSON: And in getting at the truth, if you answer my question, and you answer it reliably, credibly, I'm good.