Return to Transcripts main page

New Day

Storm Snarls Thanksgiving Travel; Democrats Angered by Schumer Comment on Obamacare; Dealing with the Aftermath of Ferguson

Aired November 26, 2014 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: The problem I have with that is that's a determination for the jurors. In other words, as a prosecutor, I don't unilaterally determine who I trust and who I believe and who I don't. That's up to people who evaluate that.

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: So you're trying to make truthful witnesses look bad?

JACKSON: No, no, not look bad, Paul. All I'm trying to do is to get at the truth. And in getting at the truth, if you answer my question and you answer it reliably, credibly, I'm good. But I think the questions need to be posed. Just like journalists push back on people you're presented with.

(CROSSTALK)

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: We're going to have to leave it there.

CALLAN: The questions were asked. They were asked in the grand jury. We can disagree about tone or how many --

(CROSSTALK)

JACKSON: Did he have a stun gun?

PEREIRA: I feel I'm going to have to let you continue this conversation in the green room.

JACKSON: And we will.

(CROSSTALK)

PEREIRA: That's going to be a web exclusive.

(CROSSTALK)

ALISYN CAMEROTA: Thanks, guys.

JACKSON: Thank you, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Well, racial tensions are at a boiling point not only in Ferguson, but across the country. So, what's next for black Americans? How does the country bridge these racial divides? We're digging deeper on that subject, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: Good to have you back with us here on NEW DAY. Of course, we'll have more on our top story, the situation in Ferguson in a moment.

I want to give you a look at other headlines, though.

A nasty storm ready to sock the East Coast, turning our Thanksgiving travel into quite a mess. The storm is expected to dump a dangerous mix of snow and rain on the busiest travel day of the year. Airlines have already scrapped hundreds of flights, many of them at New York's LaGuardia and JFK Airports. AAA is projecting more than 40 million drivers and three and a half million flyers for the Thanksgiving Day holiday.

CAMEROTA: And President Obama's short list to replace Chuck Hagel as defense secretary just got shorter. CNN has learned that Michelle Flournoy said to be a leading candidate told the president not to consider her, citing family issues. Flournoy served as a senior Pentagon official during Obama's first term. She was also considered for the top job in 2012 before Hagel was chosen.

PEREIRA: Democrats are fighting back at New York Senator Chuck Schumer after the Democrat said it was a mistake to pass Obamacare. Schumer says Democrats should have shelved the Affordable Care Act and focus instead on bills that help the middle class while the country was in a recession.

Well, as you can imagine, fellow Democrats didn't take kindly to the comment. House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi said, quote, "We come here to do a job, not keep a job."

CAMEROTA: Michaela, listen to this -- two would-be thieves are in custody this after attempting to rob of the prestigious landmark Cartier Store in Paris. Police foiled the heist as the pair tried to escape the iconic Champs-Elysees store. Officials say the thieves exchanged fire with police and tried to flee. They took a hostage at a nearby hair salon but eventually surrendered after a nearly two-hour standoff.

PEREIRA: Somebody has been watching those "Oceans" films a little too closely. I always see this kind of thing, I think, what? The cojones it takes to pull off something like that.

CAMEROTA: I understand the temptation.

PEREIRA: You do? That was another --

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: Not the armed robbery portion of it, but walking by the Cartier and thinking, hmm, come to momma.

PEREIRA: I'm learning things about her today, my goodness.

All right. Ahead in the news: protests in Ferguson and across the nation, highlighting a racial divide in America. Where do black American goes from here?

This is the conversation we're going to have. We'll take a closer look, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back. You're watching NEW DAY.

Anger, desperation, deep questions of whether their issues will be addressed are all very present here. Last night, more face-offs, more destruction, more arrests, 44 we are told.

And what is felt here is not unique. We see it in much bigger protests in major cities across the country.

So, what will bring progress here? Something positive here? And who's going to make it happen?

Joining us right now is CNN political commentator Charles Blow, and writer and activist Tim Wise.

Gentlemen, thank you for joining us this morning.

CHARLES BLOW, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Thank you.

CUOMO: Let's start, Charles, with the general proposition of what this is about here in Ferguson and across the country. And what is the first -- let's just go one at a time -- to creating an environment where it's not necessary to take to the street, but something else is going on. What will that take and what is that something else?

BLOW: I mean it's a big question, right? Because I mean in a way, this is about this particular case, and whether or not justice has been meted out fairly in this particular case.

But it's also a bigger question about faith. And faith in the system and whether or not a system that was, was originally designed not to even recognize African-Americans and then was used for you know, generations to subjugate African-Americans and still today has inequalities built into it in its treatment of African-Americans can kind of gain the faith of African-Americans that it will treat people fairly. That everyone who takes a black life will be treated in the same way. And I think that that issue of faith is the real issue at hand.

And what you're seeing on the street in Ferguson, and across this country is people -- is a lot of pain that is not necessarily just present pain, but generational pain. That is spilling out into the streets. And people are going to have to have a moment to exhale.

Sometimes you know just, things become a focal point. But sometimes those focal points become breaking points. And I'm not even necessarily saying we should move quickly past that. You know, I think we should definitely not have violence. But that doesn't mean you have to be passive. And I think the people need to have their moment. CUOMO: Right.

Charles, this case, I've been doing a lot of thinking about the case and whether this was the right case for a test of the reality of the world. Yes, you lost a life and that is always a tragic outcome and yes it involved a police officer and a black youth and that's always a sore point because it seems like it happens way too much.

But if there had been an indictment, most legal minds will tell you this would have been a very difficult case to get a conviction on. The prosecutor's office here says that was somewhat at the root of its reluctance moving forward. They're not saying it on the record. They're not saying it outwardly, but they're saying it when you talk to them in private that, you know, that made it difficult.

What would have happened then, Charles, if they got the indictment, it goes to trial and he's acquitted? Would that have made it even worse?

BLOW: But here's the bigger point, Chris, we have to stop searching for perfect victims and the kind of prototypical villains, right? This idea that we have to always have the -- this idea of even, of believing who we believe and whether or not somebody feels fear.

A lot of these cases are built on whether or not a person has a reasonable fear. And we have to understand that bias, whether implicit or not, creeps into the whole construct of whether or not someone is afraid of me or not afraid of me, and whether or not a jury believes that someone should be afraid of me or not afraid of me and whether or not --

TIM WISE, WRITER & ACTIVIST: Right.

BLOW: -- whatever I have done determines that dictates whether or not someone should take my life in the street rather than take me in. These are just big fundamental questions about bias and whether or not, how much bias exists throughout the system.

WISE: Right.

CUOMO: I hear you and a lot of attention has been given to the fact that Darren Wilson said in his testimony before the grand jury that this neighborhood Canfield is not a well-liked place, that police aren't well-liked there, and maybe that played into what he saw as reasonable fear, that wound being accepted by this grand jury.

Tim, let me come to you.

One of the interesting aspects will be on the basis of your complexion. You know, there's this big -- well, black people need to get their act together. Well, black people need to stop crime in their communities, white cops won't have to go in there and police their communities. We heard that even from an esteemed leader like Rudy Giuliani.

How much of it this a white problem as well? Because unity is the coming together of two different people. I mean, what is the role here of white and black?

WISE: I think the role -- well, as a white person it's hard for me to counsel black folks on what to do. And I think it would be largely inappropriate, when my own group, white folks, have so much blindness around racism in the system, as Charles said both historically, but also contemporaneously.

I think for us, we need to also step back from the anger and frustration a lot of white folks feel when we look and we see what we consider to be irrational violence in the streets, and say, wait a minute, what's going on, what's behind this? For most white folks, we don't really have a long understanding of the history of how law enforcement has been used in black and brown communities.

And if you don't have that appreciation, you don't have that historical memory. Things like this seem irrational to you. They seem to be irrational to mistrust police, because in our communities, the police are the folks who get the cat out of the tree. Or come and help you, officer friendly, Barney Fife in Andy Griffith. That's not the experience in most black and brown communities.

So, number one, those of us who are white need to study and learn to listen. It makes me physically ill to know, and I do know, that Charles Blow, who I know, and who's son or one of his children a few years back, that he has to have a conversation with his son about how to dress, how to talk, how to walk, how to act in the world that I would never have to have with a son of mine. And he has to do that no matter who his daddy is, no matter the fact that his son went to one of the finest high schools and I assume now probably he's graduated in there, in the entire country. He still has to have that conversation.

And as long as that is true and as long as those of us who are white can walk through this world, walk through the streets, never fearing that we're going to be the sum total of other people's anxiety, there's a problem in this country that we have to be honest about and have to confront.

CUOMO: Well, I think that what makes it an intractable problem in some respects is that these issues are not new. They have existed as Charles said for generations and as you said, Tim, there's some things that people are almost willfully blind. And the question, is a case like this, a situation like this, a flash-point that allows people to look beyond what they accept as reality, to what needs to become a better reality?

Charles Blow, Tim Wise, thank you very much for helping have this conversation on NEW DAY. You know it is one we will continue.

You know, it's just important that we hear what you think. We're having the conversation for you. So, tweet us @newday. You know how to get me personally, or you can go to Facebook.com/NewDay.

If you don't know how to get me personally, just @chriscuomo.

All right. Now, we've heard from witnesses to the Michael Brown shooting. We have. And now, we've also heard from Officer Wilson himself. We have the forensic evidence as well that the grand jury was presented with and must have thought matched the officer's account because they chose not to indict.

We will tell you what the evidence is and we will test it for you, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: The protests in Ferguson, Missouri, were calmer last night than Monday, but still more destructive than officials had hope. A police car was set on fire and the crowd itself was still enflamed and shock that after looking at all the evidence, no charges were filed against Darren Wilson.

So, what forensic evidence did the grand jury see?

Joining us is Lawrence Kobilinsky. He's a forensic scientist, and professor at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice.

Professor, thanks so much for being with us.

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Good morning.

CAMEROTA: You have now poured through much of the evidence that the grand jury also looked at. What jumps out at you?

KOBILINSKY: What jumps out at me is this is a forensic case. Yes, there are eyewitness testimony, and there's peripheral information, but primarily this is a forensic science case.

I trust the scientific analysis of the physical evidence. Whether the evidence corroborates a witness is very significant. If it negate as witness, that's significant.

There are witnesses for example that have stated that Michael Brown was shot in the back. All three autopsy reports are in agreement that that did not happen. So you know, that affects the credibility of an eye witness.

PEREIRA: Yet, you're talking about the fact that these conflicting testimonies really put the onus on the forensics. Why don't we look at some of these documents? Because I know like you said --

KOBILINSKY: Yes.

PEREIRA: You've looked at some of these things. I'm curious first of all, what are some of the things that jumped out at you? See it from a forensic science point of view.

KOBILINSKY: Looking at the autopsy report, it's clear to me that the first shot hit Michael Brown in the right hand, the palm and the thumb.

PEREIRA: When they were wrestling at the car.

KOBILINSKY: That's right. There's gunshot residue in the tissue of that wound, which tells me that the hand was very close to the gun when it went off.

The fact is, is that there's DNA and blood on the gun. There's -- there's DNA and blood on the clothing of the police officer. There's DNA and blood within the passenger component and the driver's portion of the inside of the vehicle, as well as the outer, the door of the vehicle.

It's all consistent with the scenario that Police Officer Wilson has provided us. That Michael Brown pushed him into the car, that he had contact with the vehicle, that there was a struggle for the gun. It is all consistent with the evidence.

CAMEROTA: OK, the biggest point of inconsistency among the witnesses and Officer Wilson was what happened when Michael Brown turned around, were his hands up in surrender or was he charging?

And here is what Officer Wilson sat down for his first interview last night. Here is what he said about the moment before he fired the fatal shot. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DARREN WILSON, FERGUSON POLICE OFFICER: His right hand immediately goes into his waistband. And his left hand is a fist at his side and he starts charging me.

My initial thought was, is there a weapon in there? Is there a knife? Is there a brick? What's in there? Why is your hand going there?

At that time I gave myself another mental check, can I shoot this guy? You know, can -- legally, can I? And the question I answered myself was -- I have to. If I don't, he will kill me if he gets to me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Is there any forensic evidence --

KOBILINSKY: Absolutely.

CAMEROTA: -- to support whether or not his hands were up or whether or not he was charging?

KOBILINSKY: Well, first of all, with respect to the autopsy report, it's very difficult to say whether the hands were up or down. Some shots clearly were, did not hit him with the hands up. That was clearly the shot to the forearm, which had an entrance wound on the back or the dorsal surface of the forearm, the upper arm wound is not so clear, but what is clear to support Police Officer Wilson's statement is that there was Michael Brown's blood on the ground about 35 feet east of the body.

So, at one point, they were separated by about 30, 35 feet. Now, there's also a trail of blood toward the police officer. And the shell casings that were fired that were ejected from the Sig Sauer semiautomatic were about eight feet to 10 feet away from the body of Michael Brown. So, it's very consistent with Michael Brown moving toward the police

officer.

PEREIRA: But again, we don't know if that was a charging or if he stumbled? Because the forensic evidence doesn't necessarily speak to that, does it?

KOBILINSKY: It does not clarify whether it was charging or moving or walking toward him. It's very difficult, because things are happening very rapidly.

But it is clear that he reached that point, 35 feet away and then moved toward the police officer.

PEREIRA: As I'm sitting here listening to you. One thing that really occurred to me is that the grand jury are made up of everyday citizens. They're presented with all of this forensic information. And they have to, they looked at those blood spatters, they looked at the same evidence, and even more, reams and reams of it. They have to use their best judgment in making a decision and understanding. They're not forensic scientists.

KOBILINSKY: That's true, but when science is incorporated into a case, they pay attention, because it's credible. They can trust it.

And, basically, you're looking at the evidence and looking at what people are saying. Can you believe this witness or that witness? Some witnesses were just completely excluded based upon the scientific evidence.

Police Officer Wilson's story remains solid, based upon what we know of the ballistics and the DNA work of the blood spatter pattern and all the other physical evidence in the case.

CAMEROTA: It's so good to get your perspective after looking at all the evidence that you believe the grand jury did the right decision --

KOBILINSKY: I do.

CAMEROTA: Lawrence Kobilinsky, thanks so much for joining us.

There is so much news to get to this morning. So, let's get right to it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WILSON: The reason I have a clear conscience is because I know I did my job right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A single act of violence set this tragic set of consequences into motion.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're looking at another police cruiser being torched.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Torching cars, burning buildings, destroying property, those are criminal acts.

(CHANTING)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Anger over the grand jury's decision spreads across the country.

PROTESTERS: Black lives matter!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you want a revolution!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you peacefully protest and still open your mouth.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: Good morning. It is Wednesday, November 26th, welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. You are watching NEW DAY. I'm Chris Cuomo near Ferguson, Missouri.

Much of what happened overnight here was not pretty. But the scene was not as bad as what we saw the night before. Still, the reasons for the outrage seem to be growing and the question is what will make a difference here to finally bring some peace, Alisyn?

CAMEROTA: Chris, great to have you out there with us. I'm Alisyn Camerota with Michaela Pereira here in New York City. We're monitoring developments across the country as we hear from Officer Darren Wilson for the very first time. We'll have more on that in a moment.

But, for now, we want to get back to Chris who is in Ferguson with more on the overnight developments. What happened, Chris?

CUOMO: Officer Wilson's account looms large here, certainly fuelled some of the emotions for those who took to the streets. We're told 44 arrests overnight. Now more than 100 in day two -- two days, actually.

Another police cruiser was torched, city hall vandalized, another night of a city divided.

Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO (voice-over): More police in riot gear. More National Guard out in the open. But still, more attempts to tear Ferguson apart.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hands up, don't shoot!

CUOMO: A police car set ablaze by a small group of agitators.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anyone refusing, you will be subject to arrest.

CUOMO: Police using more aggressive tactics, making arrests sooner.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's the arrest.

CUOMO: Tear gas necessary again.