Return to Transcripts main page

New Day

British Diplomat Killed in Afghanistan Attack; Darren Wilson to Resign from Police Force; Thousands Stranded in Pre-Thanksgiving Storm; Demonstrators React to Officer Wilson's Words

Aired November 27, 2014 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking news. A deadly attack on an embassy convey in Afghanistan. At least one British diplomat among the dead; dozens injured. The Taliban is claiming responsibility. Will the U.S. withdrawal plan for the region be affected?

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Fury after Ferguson. Across the nation, more protests and arrests after a grand jury decided not to indict Officer Darren Wilson. This morning, Michael Brown's parents are telling CNN what they think of the man who killed their son, after hearing his side of the story.

CUOMO: Travelers beware. Nor'easter alert from coast to coast, thousands stranded and struggling to get home for the holiday. We're going to tell you what you need to know to get where you want to go safely.

Your NEW DAY starts right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo, Kate Bolduan and Michaela Pereira.

CUOMO: Good morning. Welcome to a special Thanksgiving edition of NEW DAY. It is Thursday, November 26, just after 6 clock in the East. You have Chris Cuomo, Michaela Pereira and Deborah Feyerick here with you.

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning.

CUOMO: From the NEW DAY family to yours, we hope you have much to be grateful for this morning. Don't we?

PEREIRA: Absolutely. We're grateful you're joining us this morning.

And Deb, so good to have you here.

FEYERICK: Great to be here. Oh, my gosh. On a good day.

PEREIRA: Bright and early.

FEYERICK: Yes.

CUOMO: So let us begin. We do have breaking news this morning. Five people, including at least one British diplomat, dead in Afghanistan following a suicide attack.

PEREIRA: Dozens more have been injured. Officials say a car filled with explosives targeted a convoy of foreign embassy vehicles. Want to get straight to our Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr, with the very latest.

Good morning to you, Barbara.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to all of you.

The Afghans are saying it was a car filled with explosives that attacked a convey of foreign embassy vehicles in Kabul. One British diplomat killed, one of five killed; perhaps as many as 30 injured, including four children. The Taliban now claiming accountability for this attack.

And of course, there is growing concern as the U.S. and coalition presence winds down in Afghanistan, the Taliban moving back into Kabul where this attack happened and moving back into key areas across Afghanistan.

In fact, it was just yesterday two U.S. troops who lost their lives a couple of days ago in an IED attack, their remains were returned to Dover Air Force Base. That was a very large attack, as well. Six other Americans wounded in that attack.

Where does it all go from here? The U.S. is headed towards, in just a few weeks, having as few as 10,000 troops in Afghanistan. That's the plan for next year, but it could change a bit, because the policy now may be towards being able to continue to attack the Taliban, not just because they're Taliban. They were supposed to be left alone. But because now, if the Taliban posed a threat to the U.S., to the coalition, to security interests, the U.S. will change the rules a bit and go ahead and target them.

Back to you guys.

CUOMO: Barbara, we hope you have a very happy Thanksgiving. Thank you for the reporting.

This is a very clear case of lesson learned. Can the U.S. leave a place that is likely to become destabilized? Very difficult to do that. So let's get some perspective. We have Tom Fuentes, CNN law enforcement analyst and former FBI assistant director; Mr. Peter Bergen, CNN national security analyst.

It's good to have you both, gentlemen. Thank you for being with us this morning.

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Good morning, Chris.

CUOMO: Tom, something like this obviously isn't random, needs time, planning. What do we know about why this was done?

FUENTES: Well, it's the same thing the Taliban have been doing now, and especially stepping up their campaign in the recent week. They killed 60 people at a volleyball game in eastern Afghanistan about a week ago. The attacks on the U.S. soldier, other bombings. I think there's been four bombings in Kabul this week.

So they're making their presence known, that you know, they're going to -- they're going to be in control or at least a major nuisance in that country forever. And I think that's the message they're sending to us. Whether we leave or we don't leave, they're going to keep this up, and we can't defeat them.

CUOMO: And Peter, in terms of just assessment of why this happened, in terms of the preparation. You know, obviously coming off the Benghazi situation, everybody is very sensitive about how diplomats are protected abroad. What do we know whether or not they were ready for something like this and it was just circumstance?

PETER BERGEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, you know, I've been along those roads around the British embassy many, many times. And, you know, attacking a convoy where you have some sort of heads up that it's going to go down a road is relatively simple in Kabul. I mean, there's a lot of traffic. You just need one suicide bomber. We've seen attacks like these fairly routinely.

But Chris, just to give you some perspective, last year 3,000 Afghan civilians were killed in the war. In one -- in just one month in Iraq, 3,000 civilians were killed in the war that's going on there. The populations of Iraq and Afghanistan are about the same. So, you know, it's 12 times more violent in Iraq than it is in Afghanistan.

You know, Tom used the word "nuisance." I mean, the Taliban certainly can do these kinds of attacks, but they haven't held a single, you know, large town. They're not a -- you know, this is not ISIS, which is going to sort of storm on Kabul as we draw down. They don't have that kind of capability.

CUOMO: Right. But the big question is, Tom, especially from the U.S. perspective, is do you leave and then it destabilizes? As we all know, we have this withdrawal coming from the U.S. government, that they're going to end the mission there militarily. Is there a real risk, once again, that the U.S. troops pull out and the place falls apart?

FUENTES: Of course. But it's going to fall apart, really, you know, unless we put a million troops there. What do you do? I mean, this is the historical lesson of Afghanistan, going back to Alexander the Great in 330 B.C. Excuse me. No -- many countries have successfully invaded but unsuccessfully held ground if they're a foreign power.

And that's the Soviet Union in the '80s, three separate British occupations in the last 200 years, and now the American, you know, since 9/11, trying to develop the Afghan army. You know, we're not going to be able to completely defeat the Taliban no matter what or the insurgents or whoever, who resent having a foreign army of any size, whether we're down to 10,000 or 1,000 or, as I said, we can go back to 100,000. I don't think in the long run it matters. And they're patient. They'll wait it out. CUOMO: And when you look at this from the perspective of what it

means about the Taliban, Peter, you don't see this as any ramping up of their capabilities. This is something that's relatively easy to do, and that's why Tom used the word "nuisance"?

BERGEN: Yes, I think it is relatively easy to do. Let me just sort of interject and slightly disagree with Tom. I mean, the fact is, is that there has been great progress in Afghanistan. You know, I was there under the Taliban. There were no girls in schools. There was no phone system. There was no, you know, industry of any kind. And you know, there has been progress.

And I don't think -- you know, the president has said that we're going to draw down completely by the end of 2016. You know, whether it's President Hillary Clinton or President Jeb Bush or whoever wins the election in 2016, he or she may well say, "Hey, actually, that's not such i'a start idea to draw down." You know, you only have to look at Iraq to see that -- you know, what went on there. Afghans are actually pretty happy to have at least a small international presence. They see it as guarantee of their stability.

And you know, the first act of this new government, literally within 24 hours, was to sign the basing agreement that allows American troops to continue to be there.

CUOMO: True.

BERGEN: So, you know, I -- I'm a little more sanguine about the situation than perhaps -- you know, than Tom is.

CUOMO: True. But as you know very well, the Americans are war weary. They want their men and women home. And a new president does not want to own an old conflict. So the politics will be complicated.

But Peter Bergen, Tom Fuentes, thank you very much for the perspective this morning. Appreciate it. And we do all remember, Mick, that they do call Afghanistan the graveyard of empires.

PEREIRA: They do indeed, Chris. All right, thanks for that conversation.

I want to turn now to the situation ongoing in Ferguson. The mood still tense; protests, however, overnight were peaceful. Perhaps chilly weather, the impending holiday and a strong National Guard presence all playing a role.

But the demonstrations weren't nearly as calm in California: 130 people arrested in Los Angeles, 35 others in Oakland.

All of this as we're learning that Officer Darren Wilson will be leaving the Ferguson Police Department. His attorney telling CNN it's not a question of if but when.

All of this as the community tries to pick up those pieces, both literally and figuratively. Let's bring in Stephanie Elam. She's been live in Ferguson covering this story for us. So many developments to get to. I'm curious what the reaction is about Wilson leaving the force.

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I think that one is pretty expected. Good morning, Michaela.

PEREIRA: Good morning.

ELAM: Happy Thanksgiving.

A quiet night out here in Ferguson for several reasons. The weather last night was pretty undesirable for anyone wanting to stand out here, with the snow that was falling and the freezing temperatures.

But at the same time residents here going about trying to get their lives back together by boarding up their businesses, cleaning up, getting things back into order here.

One note, though: West Florissant -- that's the street where we saw so much of that devastation Monday night, the night that we found out that Officer Darren Wilson would not be indicted -- that is a crime scene now, still blocked off while businesses are examining what happened. You had arson there, as well; looting, as well. Looking into that.

But when you look overall of what was going on here, despite the weather, despite what we'd seen on West Florissant, not done yet. Yesterday, we saw protesters take to city hall in St. Louis and have a protest and a mock trial of Officer Wilson there. And then going into the building. Three people arrested there.

And what is going on here in the St. Louis area, Ferguson, not being limited to this area. Protesters in Oakland in southern California, in La Jolla, blocking off the 101 Freeway there. So there were confrontations between police and drivers in that area, as well, as well as in Los Angeles.

And just to show you how widespread the response has been to the death of Mike Brown and the fact that it's brought to the forefront the race relations here between law enforcement and young people of color, around 5,000 protesters in London gathered outside the U.S. embassy yesterday to also demonstrate and to also protest. So this movement that has started in small-town America, here in Ferguson, Michaela, being felt throughout the world.

PEREIRA: It certainly has been and is being. Social media we hear of the protests happening around, the people feeling galvanized by this -- this situation there.

Steph, you've been doing a tremendous job. It's not been easy bringing this story to us at all. We know how miserably cold it is and how hard it is to be away from your family on the holiday. Thank you so much, darling. We appreciate it.

ELAM: Thanks, Michaela.

CUOMO: And unfortunately, there are too many people watching Stephanie's reporting right now from the airports. PEREIRA: Yes.

CUOMO: There are thousands of travelers still not home for the holidays, stranded basically, trying to work out travel arrangements. We know -- we know, and we're happy to be here for you at least a little bit of a break. More than 700 flights canceled, 4,000 more delayed because of the nor'easter that tore through the northeast. It wasn't much better for drivers either.

PEREIRA: No.

CUOMO: Navigating the roads very difficult. Let's bring in meteorologist Jennifer Gray to explain the situation.

PEREIRA: But is there hope for today is the question, right? Give me some hope.

CUOMO: Yes, give us some hope. It's Thanksgiving, for goodness sake.

JENNIFER GRAY, AMS METEOROLOGIST: I know. I have good news for today. It was a mess, though, and as we left LaGuardia late last night, there were folks getting ready to spend the night in the airport.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GRAY (voice-over): Massive winter storms, from coastal rain to inland snow, battering much of the East Coast and parts of the Midwest on the busiest travel day of the year.

ERIC SAIL (PH), COLORADO RESIDENT: I am a man without a flight.

GRAY: Frustrated travelers feeling the ripple effect of storm systems from Montana to Maine.

SAIL (PH): I got on the road, coming from Vail, and snow storm and multiple accidents all over the place.

GRAY: Nearly 5,000 flights delayed up to six hours on Wednesday, and over 700 cancellations at some of the nation's busiest airports.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were notified that the flight was canceled. So we're sitting here in the airport, waiting for the next flight out.

GRAY: Many airlines are waiving rebooking fees for travelers. But stranded travelers finding it hard to rebook on a day when most flights are already full.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's tough to sit and wait and not know what's going to happen. But we're hopeful.

GRAY: For some of the roughly 41 million people expected to drive during this holiday, it's even worse.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Visibility is getting really bad. GRAY: In the northeast, a wintry mix slowing travel from D.C. to New

York, while further inland, heavier snow causing multiple tie-ups and accidents.

ROSE SPIELMAN, NEW YORK STRANDED TRAVELER: This day of all days, it's pretty frustrating. But I have a reunion of 30 family members I'm trying to get to tomorrow in Pennsylvania, so nothing's going to stop me.

GRAY: A train ride was the solution home for many Americans at New York's Penn Station, but they, too, faced delays.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Be patient. And see if you can make it.

GRAY: This photo shows the scores of people braving the crowd to be with loved ones this Thanksgiving.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRAY: Those pictures unbelievable.

If there's any good news in all this, it was a very fast-moving system, and so this thing is already out of here, pretty much, pushing into portions of northern Maine and on into Canada.

We are looking at very cold air, though, to sink in behind it. Look at this. Look at this. Not much happening around the next couple of days. We do have some snow right around the Great Lakes. A lot of Black Friday shoppers will be out there tomorrow. And then on into Saturday. Once you're trying to head back home Saturday into Sunday, it looks very quiet across the East. Rain pushing into the West Coast, the east side of the country looking good.

Here's your forecast for today. Cold but clear across the southeast. Rain and snow across the Great Lakes. Cold in the Northern Plains. Look at this. Temperatures in Minneapolis, high temperatures today, 12 degrees; 27 in Chicago; 37 in Kansas City. And then lows tonight, if you are heading out doing some shopping, it is going to be chilly across much of the country: 31 in Memphis, 28 in Atlanta, single digits across portions of Minnesota.

We are looking at that parade forecast, though, people already heading out to stake their spot. We're looking at temperatures right now, 36 degrees in the city, feeling like 34. And temperatures are going to stay pretty chilly throughout the parade. Temperatures in the 30s, feeling like they're below freezing.

Let's look at those live pictures just a few blocks from our studios. Skies are expected to be clear for turkey day tradition, Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade. Wednesday's blustery wet weather didn't affect the balloon inflations for the parade, guys. It is going to be a lot of fun. Remember, last year was very, very cold and windy.

PEREIRA: And they had to keep them low last year.

GRAY: Yes. PEREIRA: Maybe this year they'll be able to let them fly in all their glory.

GRAY: Yes. Winds no problem.

PEREIRA: How exciting. That turkey could get some serious winds.

CUOMO: The blowing up of the balloons is one of the greatest New York traditions.

PEREIRA: It is. No question.

CUOMO: To go up there with the kids.

PEREIRA: We snapped a picture on the way to work this morning. Like, "Could we stop here?" And I took a picture as they were doing -- I think it was the Stay Puft marshmallow dude. He was chilling.

FEYERICK: For people who live in the city, it's become as big as the parade itself. People who go in the night, yes.

CUOMO: It's so big. First time I took little man there when he was just, like, awake to the world, I was like, "This is going to be awesome, daddy and little boy." And we go there and he's looking. And they're all, like, soggy because they're getting openings, like.

PEREIRA: A little freaky, probably.

CUOMO: And I was -- I think it was Dora and he's like, "Dora is dying."

I'm like, "No, no, no, she's being filled up. Quick, let's go get something with sugar."

FEYERICK: She's coming to life. Hide your eyes.

PEREIRA: Oh, no.

Well, Deb Feyerick, we're so glad you're here with us handling our news for us today.

FEYERICK: Well, there's a lot of it.

PEREIRA: Want to look at those headlines? All right.

FEYERICK: Absolutely. Well, let's take a look at more of your headlines.

Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg is spending Thanksgiving morning in the hospital. She's said to be resting comfortably after having a stent placed in her heart Wednesday. Doctors discovered a blockage after she'd experienced discomfort during routine exercise. She's 81 years old, and she's the oldest acting justice. She previously survived colon and pancreatic cancer. She's expected home by the end of the week. And police in Cleveland released surveillance video showing the moment

a 12-year-old boy was fatally shot by officers. And we want to warn you that the video is graphic and troubling.

Authorities released the images at the request of the family of 12- year-old Tamir Rice. He was shot as officers responded to reports of someone brandishing a gun in a park. Well, police say he was holding what looked like a real gun. It turned out to be a fake. They say that he was told three times to show his hands.

Israeli security forces say they've broken up a massive terror plot. They say Hamas terrorists were planning to abduct civilians and carry out attacks on targets, including a football stadium and also train stations. At least 30 people were arrested. Rifles, ammunition, explosives were said to have been recovered. Officials say that the terrorists were getting support from operatives in Turkey, Syria, Gaza and Jordan.

Well, tributes are pouring in this morning for Australian cricketer Phillip Hughes. The young batsman died at a Sidney hospital hours ago from severe head injuries. He was struck by a ball in a match earlier this week in the back of his head. He never regained consciousness after the injury. He collapsed after being hit behind the ear during a match against New South Wales Tuesday. Phillip Hughes was just 25 years old, and he was considered to be an up-and-coming great. They're already equating him to Australia's best. So it's a really devastating loss. It's -- he's the equivalent of Derek Jeter, basically.

PEREIRA: Yes, that nation is mourning this morning, for sure.

FEYERICK: Yes. It's tragic.

PEREIRA: All right, Deb. Thank you so much.

FEYERICK: Of course.

PEREIRA: Darren Wilson is not going to face criminal charges for shooting Michael Brown, but is he completely off the legal hook? Our legal panel will weigh in. Plus, we'll also get some more reaction to his interview coming up next.

CUOMO: Specifically from the Brown family. They face their first Thanksgiving without their son. We have painful words from them about Officer Wilson and how they think this investigation has been handled. That's ahead for you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: Reaction has been understandably strong following Officer Darren Wilson's first interview, where he shared his version of the events that led to the Michael Brown shooting. He says he did his job that day. Those are words that are still echoing in Ferguson.

Let's get right to Ana Cabrera. She's there for us live now with reaction. Happy Thanksgiving, Ana. Tough duty but thanks for being there.

ANA CABRERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Happy Thanksgiving to you, Chris.

You know, the angst of this community and really around the country has never just been about Officer Darren Wilson shooting and killing Michael Brown, but it was that case that really was the flashpoint in exposing a much deeper concern involving law enforcement treatment of minorities.

And what we're hearing from community members here in reaction to Darren Wilson's interview is that his apparent lack of remorse tells them that the change they're seeking still hasn't come.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CABRERA (voice-over): Demonstrators near the iconic arch in downtown St. Louis stand united amid the firestorm of frustration generated by Officer Darren Wilson breaking his silence.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS: Are you feeling any remorse?

OFFICER DARREN WILSON, FERGUSON POLICE DEPARTMENT: Everyone feels remorse when a life's lost.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You have a very clean conscience.

WILSON: The reason I have a clean conscience is I know I did my job right.

CABRERA: Michael Brown's family once again overcome with grief, knowing their son's killer faces no charges. They spoke to legal analyst Sunny Hostin.

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Officer Wilson said that he had a clear conscience about what happened that day. If he had to do it again, he would. What's your response to that?

MICHAEL BROWN SR., MICHAEL BROWN'S FATHER: He's a murderer. That's what that tells me.

LESLEY MCSPADDEN, MICHAEL BROWN'S MOTHER: I hope the Lord will have mercy on his soul.

CABRERA: In the community, an equally strong reaction.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The interview was really a slap in the face, to hear this-- this man say that he had a clear conscience. The smug arrogance is what I think startled most people.

CABRERA: Wilson's words the root of compounding anger in a community still reeling from violence and looting.

Ray Sumner works on behalf of shop owners to secure this badly damaged strip mall in Dellwood.

(on camera): This property has been hit three times?

RAY SUMNER, WORKING TO SECURE STRIP MALL: Three times down there and three times here. And he keeps coming back, but how many times are you going to take, you know, the abuse from it before you say enough is enough?

CABRERA (voice-over): The owner of this beauty supply store spent $150,000 rebuilding after looting in August. It burned to the ground Monday night.

(on camera): How does this community move forward?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've all just got to stick together and let the justices do what they're going to do (ph). Just come together as one.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CABRERA: This community is emotionally broken. It is physically broken. I mean, just look at the burned-down gas station behind me. These damages are prevalent all across town. So it's going to take months, if not years, for this community to recover. And the healing could take even longer -- Chris, Michaela.

PEREIRA: All right, Ana. Thank you so much for that look. It was a really strong image to see the hands linked together like that.

Want to turn to the legal aspect of this. We know the grand jury decision is in, but the legal process in the Michael Brown shooting certainly far from over. Two federal investigations are ongoing, and the threat of a civil suits looms, as well.

Let's bring in our CNN legal minds, legal analyst and criminal defense attorney Danny Cevallos, and CNN -- HLN legal analyst Joey Jackson, also a criminal defense attorney. Gentlemen, thanks for joining us on Thanksgiving morning.

CUOMO: Good men.

PEREIRA: I'm sure there are other places you'd rather be. But this is of such import right now.

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, it is.

PEREIRA: And so many people feeling frustrated. Is there hope from some people, they're asking, that maybe there will be, Danny, criminal or other kind of justice to come out of these federal investigations? There's two probes ongoing.

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Right. There are two probes, because there's two separate statutes that the DOJ can proceed own. One is a criminal charge against Darren Wilson, the individual.

PEREIRA: The individual.

CEVALLOS: The other one would be a civil type charge against the agency. And that's for what they call pattern or practice of discriminatory behavior. But going to the criminal charges, a lot of people have said that the DOJ has to prove some racial animus.

PEREIRA: A higher threshold here.

CEVALLOS: And it's important to understand it's not true.

(CROSSTALK)

CEVALLOS: Exactly. It's not true.

PEREIRA: Explain that.

CEVALLOS: It's very important that the only thing that the DOJ, and when I say that, I mean the Department of Justice, has to prove is that Officer Wilson willfully, under color of authority, and not color -- that's not race color...

PEREIRA: I understand what you mean. Yes.

CEVALLOS: That's wearing a badge, right? And that he deprived him, Michael Brown, of a federal constitutional right or a right under federal law, which you know, can have a racial element, but that is not an essential element of the crime. So it's important to understand...

PEREIRA: Right.

CEVALLOS: ... that the key is whether or not Officer Wilson willfully deprived him of a constitutional right.

PEREIRA: Of those rights.

CEVALLOS: Right. And excessive force itself can be that deprivation.

CUOMO: But it's a tough case to make, Joey. That's why -- this same thing is going on with the Trayvon Martin case. We haven't heard anything about it, because there probably will be nothing to hear about it.

JACKSON: Yes. It's difficult, Chris. And I think the -- what Danny points out, rightfully so, that you don't have to prove discrimination or anything predicated on race. But I think the misunderstanding comes in because you have to show animus; you have to show ill will; you have to show evilness. It's not enough to show that he was negligent, that he was reckless but that he intentionally deprived you of your right in a way that was malicious, and that's how the jury instruction reads. And people say, well, how else are you going to prove it unless you establish that, based upon him being an African- American, he went after him.

So Michaela, I don't see that succeeding or prevailing when you have a grand jury that has decided we don't even have probable cause. What I do see, however, is a civil claim based upon wrongful death...

PEREIRA: OK.

JACKSON: ... that the family could level against him. Different standard of proof: not beyond a reasonable doubt, just by preponderance of the evidence. Is it more likely than not?

PEREIRA: And what is the question the jury would be asked to answer there, in that case?

JACKSON: Yes, in that case, what happens, Michaela, is we're talking about negligence. It's a garden variety negligence suit. And so you're looking at the actions of Darren Wilson, and you're not saying he acted with any intent or even acted recklessly but that he acted negligently. He was careless and as a result of that, you know, is it more likely than not?

Now, what I see, because I think, certainly, it's in everyone's interests to heal, you know, and to grow from this and get better from this and to learn from this, I don't see a protracted civil suit in the event there is one. And I do believe there will be one.

CUOMO: But the civil action by the DOJ, looking at how...

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: ... that could be the biggest thing for that community, because certainly something needs to be the change. I just don't want to let the prosecutor out of the equation here too soon. It is true under law, even though the grand jury has chosen not to indict, he could still bring charges. We know he won't, but that is something that people should have in their heads in terms of the responsibility of the office. No?

CEVALLOS: Yes. We should take a step back. I'm glad you brought that up, because a lot of people have criticized the grand jury process. You know, our system is designed to give prosecutors near complete discretion when it comes to charging crimes.

And in a way, one could argue that the grand jury process, in a process that is completely nondemocratic -- obviously, Joey and I practice criminal defense. The decision to prosecute by a prosecutor is the undemocratic thing that our system has. It's the way it's designed. We entrust them with that tremendous power. And the grand jury process is probably the only way that we actually submit it to citizens. So in that sense, the grand jury process, while secretive, may be the most democratic criminal prosecution tool of all.

PEREIRA: Right.

JACKSON: Here's why I don't think it was in this particular case.

PEREIRA: Quick. Out of time.

JACKSON: I know it's a long story, but the reality is I don't think you can have a prosecutor who works with police, who depends upon police, who trusts and respects police, investigating the police.

PEREIRA: And that's a point that you've made.

JACKSON: Absolutely. And as a result of that, I think there needs to be a process where there's an independent body... PEREIRA: Right.

JACKSON: ... who can objectively evaluate the evidence.

CUOMO: It's called the special prosecutor. And the governor had a chance to do it, and he didn't.

PEREIRA: He didn't do it.

JACKSON: Or the prosecutor himself had a chance to back away, and he didn't. He said, "I can do it, and I can do it fairly." And a lot of people questioned that. And therefore, you have a community that lacks trust in the actual outcome of this case.

PEREIRA: One of the great underlying issues that's going on in Ferguson. A great discussion here. Sorry to cut it short, gentlemen. Always appreciate getting involved with these legal minds. Thank you so much and happy Thanksgiving to both of you.

JACKSON: Happy Thanksgiving.

PEREIRA: Gobble, gobble.

(CROSSTALK)

PEREIRA: Good to see you all.

JACKSON: Enjoy.

PEREIRA: Sadly, the strife that's happening there in Ferguson is threatening to spill over into a beloved holiday tradition. Will protests disrupt the Macy's Thanksgiving spectacular? We're going to take you live back down live to the balloon route as the balloons are ready to go.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)