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New Day

Senate to Release Report on CIA Torture; Obama Takes Over 'Colbert Report'; New York A.G. Wants to Investigate Killings by Police

Aired December 09, 2014 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Now, many former and still-serving CIA officials will say that the agency simply did what the Bush administration asked it to do and that it was legal.

But one of the questions you're going to hear throughout the day is did the CIA tell President Bush everything that they were doing -- Chris.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Barbara. Let's get some perspective from someone who definitely knows the answers to the questions this morning. He is the former director of the CIA Counterterrorism Center, Bob Grenier. He's now chairman of the ERG) Partners.

Sir, thank you very much for joining us this morning.

BOB GRENIER, FORMER DIRECTOR, CIA COUNTERTERRORISM CENTER: You're welcome.

CUOMO: The situation demands to have the politics stripped out. And let's just have a matter-of-fact conversation. I'll tell the viewers you wrote a lengthy and detailed assessment of this report and your feelings about it, so there's an op-ed online for you to get it.

But you use a big word there. You use the word tendentious about this report, and you're meaning that this is a biased report that is politically motivated. There are two points here. The first is whether or not what you were doing was worth it, whether it worked. And the second is, whether or not the spy agency, the CIA, was being deceptive with the government about what was going on.

To the first, were the methods effective that you were using?

GRENIER: I don't think there's any question about that. I mean, you can just look at the results. We saw what happened on 9/11. We knew that these were committed terrorists in al Qaeda who wanted to reprise the success that they had on 9/11, and to date, thankfully, they haven't been able to do that. So somebody must have succeeded somewhere in keeping that from happening.

CUOMO: It is argued that the effectiveness of them can't be measured. That really detention would have been more than enough. And this was just torture for torture's sake. Do you endorse that at all? GRENIER: Oh, absolutely not. Absolutely not. In fact it was an

absolute principle in this program that we would only employ the least-harsh methods necessary in order to get what was in the heads of these terrorists. And we should say that, of the roughly 100 or so terrorists who came into CIA hands and who were admitted into this program, the majority never had these harsh tactics employed on them at all. The majority of them, when they found themselves in those circumstances, and with no recourse, they became compliant and they told us what they knew.

There was only a relatively small number of hard cases, who happened to be the worst of the worst. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who -- the mastermind of 9/11, who was principal among them, with whom we had to get rough.

CUOMO: When you say get rough, you are saying and you do acknowledge that the CIA was engaging in torture?

GRENIER: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I mean, people of conscience can disagree on this. But the people who were on the front lines, who were actually engaged in trying to defend America against terrorists, they have to rely on the legal advice that they are given.

And the CIA demanded -- they didn't just ask, they demanded -- that we had to have full legal assurances from the highest authorities charged with making these judgments that what we were doing was legal. That's what we had. It would be convenient if those judgments were consistent over time, and if everyone subscribed to them. But that's what we insisted on, and that's what we got.

CUOMO: You're going to the second point about how open this discussion was with government about what was going on and who knew. But just to finish the first point, torture, by any other legal definition or supported argument is still torture. Do you believe that what you were doing to people, the hardest cases, the worst cases, however you want to call them, was in fact, torture?

GRENIER: Look, the harshest thing that we did was to water-board certain individuals. There were three individuals total, ever...

CUOMO: That's it?

GRENIER: That's it. Three individuals who were water-boarded. That's it.

CUOMO: Many will not believe that, you know that. There are suspicions that this was a common practice, that it was done to many people. It's one of the reasons people want to know about the report.

GRENIER: Absolutely not. I mean, I haven't seen the details of the report. We're all going to see it later on today. I don't believe that they're going do charge that we water-boarded anybody other than those three, because that is the fact of the matter.

But let's remember that thousands, literally thousands of U.S. airmen have been water-boarded by the Air Force as part of their counter interrogation training. So are all the people who are responsible for that during the Cold War, are they all war criminals?

CUOMO: Let's go to the second point. Did the government know what you were doing? Had it been authorized? Were politicians aware? Or was this all secret?

GRENIER: This was a secret program. But those who needed to know were absolutely brought in and made parties to the conspiracy. As I said, we were very, very clear that -- about what it was that we intended to do, what we were doing to make sure that we had the necessary assurances from the Justice Department that what we were doing was legal.

Obviously, we were operating under the direction of the White House. We kept all of those officials fully informed. All of the members of the war cabinet, if you will. They were all kept fully informed. The National Security Council. And the eight members of Congress, House and Senate, who were proscribed by law to be briefed on this, were kept fully briefed and fully informed.

CUOMO: Is it true that you were not asked to be interviewed, for this report?

GRENIER: That is absolutely true. Neither I nor any of my colleagues, currently serving, past serving, nobody was interviewed for this report.

CUOMO: How do you explain that? What was the explanation offered to you for why you weren't going to be included?

GRENIER: Well, they never spoke to me, so I never got an explanation, So I can only infer an explanation.

And my firm belief, given the public statements by Senator Feinstein, that the chairman of the Senate Select Committee, is that she concluded at a certain point that this was wrong and that it should never happen again. And I think that she turned her staffers loose and in a morass of six million documents, and they cherry-picked it to make that case.

CUOMO: Do you think there is risk in releasing this report?

GRENIER: I would defer to those who have access to the most up-to- date information. We are told in the press that the secretary of state personally called Senator Feinstein to ask her not to release this report, because of the danger that it would pose to Americans and to U.S. facilities overseas. I have to defer to him.

CUOMO: Is there a benefit to the American people in knowing what was done in their name? We keep hearing that phrase.

GRENIER: Well, yes, I mean security issues aside, given the fact that so much of this information is out there. The fact that what we were doing is out there. The techniques that we used, those are all a matter of public record right now, whether it's a good or a bad thing.

So all things equal and security interests aside, absolutely. Why shouldn't we be clear with the American public? The point, though, is that we need to be truthful with the American public. They need a balanced accounting of what happened.

Again, if you'll just permit me, let's remember the report that's being issued today is not a Senate Select Committee report. It is coming out solely from the Democrats on that committee. There is a separate rebuttal which is being launched, also is going to be released today, from the Republicans on that committee, as well as the rebuttal from the CIA.

So quite frankly, this is a dog's breakfast, and I wish people luck in trying to figure out what's true and what's false.

CUOMO: Quickly, Mr. Grenier, is America more or less safe because of stopping these tactics?

GRENIER: I think America is less safe. Now, we could argue about the extent to which it is less safe. The problem is that we don't know in advance. We just don't know.

So -- and this issue is not going away. There's a new generation of terrorists who are growing up right now in Syria and Iraq, and they pose a threat to us now. They're going to pose a threat to us in the indefinite future. We can make certain judgments about what we think is proper in light of American values.

And I can tell you that the CIA is going to abide by the rules, whatever they are, but this is a moral judgment that has to be made; and unfortunately, it's being trivialized by this Senate report.

CUOMO: Robert Grenier, thank you very much for your perspective. Certainly, you know what went on.

GRENIER: I certainly do.

CUOMO: All right, Chris. President Obama getting lots of laughs last night after he took over "The Colbert Report." The president poked fun at himself, GOP leaders, and even Stephen Colbert himself, who is known, of course, to mock the commander-in-chief daily. But the president also talked shop.

For more on all of this, let's get to senior White House correspondent, Jim Acosta.

How did it go, Jim?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Morning, Alisyn.

Well, the White House is certainly going beyond the mainstream press to get its message out on some of the biggest issues facing this president from immigration to Ferguson.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ACOSTA (voice-over): With the White House scrambling to contain crises at home and overseas, President Obama sought some comic relief on "The Colbert Report," and the punchlines came with a purpose.

STEPHEN COLBERT, HOST, "THE COLBERT REPORT": Are you still president after the mid-terms? Because the Republicans are quite surprised that you're doing anything at all.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Look, the election didn't go as it, I would have liked. You know, I made a little correction there. I had a little thought bubble. But as president, the only office where you're elected by people all across the country, you've still got a lot of responsibilities.

ACOSTA: Making the case that he's no lame duck, the president fielded questions on the economy, an area where he'd like more credit.

COLBERT: Why didn't you fix the economy before the mid-term elections? You win and then maybe you don't have to come on the "Colbert Report"?

OBAMA: The truth is, the economy had been on a pretty good run. We've had 57 straight months of private-sector job growth, over ten million jobs created.

COLBERT: You've employed a lot of people.

OBAMA: We have.

COLBERT: Mostly as secretary of defense.

OBAMA: Well -- that's boosted our numbers a little bit.

ACOSTA: And on immigration.

OBAMA: If you don't agree with how we're approaching this executive action, there's an easy solution: pass a bill. If you pass a bill, then we're going to be able to get things done.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you want?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When do you want it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now!

ACOSTA: To respond to the growing protests in the streets after Ferguson and the chokehold death of Eric Garner, the president sat down with Black Entertainment Television. Mr. Obama said he supports the demonstrators, as long as they're peaceful. OBAMA: A country's conscience sometimes has to be triggered by some

inconvenience, and the value of peaceful protests, activism, organizing, it reminds the society this is not yet done.

ACOSTA: And he said he could relate to young African-Americans who complain of police harassment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can't breathe!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can't breathe!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can't breathe!

OBAMA: My mind went back to what it was like for me when I was 17, 18. 20.

Part of the reason I got into politics was to figure out how can I bridge some of those gaps in understanding so that the larger country understands this is not just a black problem or a brown problem; this is an American problem?

ACOSTA: As for the key domestic issue that may have cost Democrats control of Congress, Obamacare, the president poked some fun at himself on "The Colbert Report" noting Healthcare.gov's infamous failure to launch.

OBAMA: I think that's where Disney got the idea for "Frozen."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ACOSTA: And the president will talk about his executive actions on immigration on Spanish language TV networks later on today. But on perhaps the most critical issue facing this president right now, at least for this week, and that is the release of that torture report up on Capitol Hill, still no comment from the president, yet.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Right, it's hard to make jokes about that one.

ACOSTA: Absolutely.

CAMEROTA: Jim Acosta, thanks so much.

CUOMO: A lot of news this morning. Let's get you right to the headlines with Michaela.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Good morning, everyone once again.

Breaking overnight, about 1,000 protesters angry over the Michael Brown and Eric Garner decisions brought part of I-80 to a standstill in Berkeley, California, blocking traffic on the freeway after climbing fences to get around police in riot gear. Some demonstrators even blocked an Amtrak train, standing right on the tracks.

Protests also ramped up outside Barclays Center in Brooklyn. Inside, LeBron James among the players sporting an "I can't breathe" T-shirt during warm-up.

NTSB investigators are analyzing data from a small plane's flight recorder. They are hoping to learn what caused a deadly crash. The twin-engine plane crashed into a house in suburban Maryland, killing a mother and her two young sons. Three people on board the plane also died. Officials say other pilots had warned of birds flying near the Montgomery County Airport.

New developments for you in that huge fire that destroyed an apartment complex under construction in downtown Los Angeles. Fire investigators say they're now looking at the possibility that the fire was intentionally set. Arson investigators have brought in dogs to try and sniff out accelerant and try to determine the point of origin of the fire. That fire lit up the L.A. skyline. It engulfed an entire city block, closing the 101 and 110 freeways for hours. Thankfully, no injuries were reported.

End of the year, you know, we like to talk about the things of the year that kind of, you know, stick with us. Or maybe stick in your head, like this song.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC: "HAPPY" BY PHARRELL)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: You can't help but be happy when you hear Pharrell's catchy tune. This year's top song on iTunes.

And the other song that every parent in the world is cringing at right now, the "Frozen" soundtrack was this year's top-selling album on iTunes. Now it's going to be stuck in my head the rest of the day. The Disney flick was also the top downloaded movie of 2014.

CAMEROTA: I'm OK if we never hear it again.

PEREIRA: I love it. I love it.

CUOMO: That movie -- that movie took me by surprise. When I saw it, the first of seven times, I would have never imagined that it would have become the most -- most of everything ever. But to hear my 4- year-old, Cha-Cha, belt out that song, they sing it like nothing else I've ever heard.

PEREIRA: And hit those notes.

CAMEROTA: It does get in the 4-year-old's head and stays there.

CUOMO: I feel like an ice princess at the end of that song.

CAMEROTA: Well...

CUOMO: More than usual.

CAMEROTA: Got it. All right. Thanks so much.

New York state attorney general wants to change the system for investigating police killings of unarmed civilians. He'll be here to talk about what he's proposing, next.

CUOMO: And are you ready for some political theater in Washington? Because it's coming. You have a House committee hearing from Jonathan Gruber. Remember him, the Obamacare advisor who said some not-so-nice things about the American voter? John King will tell you what to expect on "Inside Politics."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Protests continuing across the country over a New York City's grand jury's decision not to indict a police officer in the chokehold death of Eric Garner.

Last night, basketball stars wore T-shirts emblazoned with Garner's last words, "I can't breathe," in their pre-game warm-ups, and now New York's lead prosecutor has requested powers to investigate and prosecute killings of unarmed civilians by police officers.

Joining us now is New York's attorney general, Eric Schneiderman.

Mr. Schneiderman, thanks so much for being here.

ERIC SCHNEIDERMAN, NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL: Good to be here, thank you.

CAMEROTA: In light of the Eric Garner death and all the protests, you want to change the system. What are you looking to do?

SCHNEIDERMAN: Well, my proposal has two parts. First of all, it is essential that the state legislature and the governor rewrite the laws relating to these types of cases. The laws in New York are archaic. We have the most restrictive grand jury laws in the country. If it not -- if the prosecutor in the Garner case had wanted to get off the case and have someone substituted, he couldn't do it under our law.

CAMEROTA: Oh, is that right? You cannot have a special prosecutor in New York?

SCHNEIDERMAN: it cannot in the application of a D.A. simply because of the conflict of interest. And the problem here is not the acquisition that any D.A. engaged in misconduct. It's the public confidence in this part of our system is shot. We can immediately restore public confidence, and that's the second thing I'm asking for in this letter, by the governor immediately by executive order, doesn't have to wait a day, granting my office jurisdiction -- the attorney general has done this in the past -- to take over any deaths caused by police officers acting in the line of duty until the legislature comes up with a permanent fix.

So the goal is to create confidence right now that a disinterested prosecutor will handle these cases going forward until the legislature and the governor come up with a permanent fix of this very badly- broken system.

CAMEROTA: In fact, you've written a letter to Governor Cuomo asking for just that. Have you heard back from him?

SCHNEIDERMAN: Our staffs have been in communication, and I can't say more about it right now.

CAMEROTA: It sounds as though you do not think that the district attorney in the Eric Garner case in Staten Island, and possibly even the one in Ferguson, Missouri, did their jobs well. It sounds like you think that they were compromised by their relationship with the police.

SCHNEIDERMAN: I'm not saying that at all. And because of New York's terrifically restrictive laws on grand juries, we can't say what happened in Staten Island, because we don't know what happened in the grand jury.

I'm saying that the perception of the conflict is so pervasive. Public's confidence in the police department has gone down. And we have to get the public back together with the cops.

The protesters out there should be focusing their attention on getting laws changed in Albany, not on the NYPD that is already in the middle of tremendous reforms.

CAMEROTA: So if you as attorney general had the power to prosecute these, what would you do differently?

SCHNEIDERMAN: I would follow the same rules in law, but the public would know that my office, which is 13 offices around the state. I'm elected by all the counties of the state. We can pick lawyers who do not have direct relationships with the local police department involved. So this public would be assured that there's a disinterested prosecutor, who's also accountable to the people. This is not like having a special prosecutor like Ken Starr, who's not accountable to anyone. I'm accountable to the voters just as the D.A.s are, but we can provide people who do not work with the particular police jurisdiction that's being investigated.

CAMEROTA: The local district attorneys don't like your plan. Here is what the Brooklyn D.A., Kenneth Thompson, said. He says, "I'm adamantly opposed to the request by the New York State attorney general for authority to investigate and potentially prosecute alleged acts of police brutality. No one is more committed to ensuring equal justice under the law than I am."

Sounds like they think that you're denigrating their motivation.

SCHNEIDERMAN: Well, I'm really not. And again, the order is a temporary order. It's designed to force the legislature to take action. I'm -- I think people are taking this a little bit defensively.

But if you actually read the letter, it's a very thoughtful proposal. It's a short-term fix to restore public confidence and to enable the focus of all of this energy that's out there in streets to go where it should go, which is to pressure the state legislature to take action.

I've gotten a lot support from a lot of different folks in law enforcement, as well. And it's just something that I think people, as they sort out what it really means, they're going to come around to thinking it's not as threatening as it appears. It's something we have to do.

Public confidence is shot. Felix Frankfurter (ph) once said justice must satisfy the appearance of justice, so even the appearance that there's not a disinterested prosecutor handling these cases, which is a widespread view, hurts us very badly. You can't have people afraid to talk to the police, afraid to report crimes, feeling this separation, this wedge between the public and the police. We've got to restore confidence in the NYPD, and this is one way to do it.

CAMEROTA: In 15 minutes, we are having the parents of Jonathan Ferrell. He was a 24-year-old football player at a Florida university. He was shot and killed by police. He was unarmed, unarmed black man.

And what happened in that case was again, the grand jury did not return an indictment. And the attorney general empanelled a second grand jury and showed them the same facts; and they did return an indictment. Do you -- is there anything that you can do today to further the Eric Garner case?

SCHNEIDERMAN: In New York, the standard is very high for getting a second grand jury. State laws, by the way, vary all over the place here, which is another aspect of why this is a national problem. Very hard to do that in New York.

My request would not be retrospective. We're supporting the Justice Department's investigation into the Garner case, and District Attorney Thompson has convened a grand jury in another tragic shooting; and he's handling that. We're not going to go back. This is just to go forward until the legislature does what it's hard to get legislatures to do and takes concrete action on these very, very important issues.

CAMEROTA: Got it. Eric Schneiderman, thanks so much for coming into NEW DAY.

SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Great to see you.

Let's go over to Chris.

CUOMO: All right, Alisyn. The clock is ticking as Congress tries to avoid a government shutdown. It turns out there may be a really big snag in their attempt to keep the government running. John King has it all for you on "Inside Politics."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: Welcome back. Let's give you a look at your headlines at 27 minutes past the hour. U.S. military bases and diplomatic posts are on heightened alert this morning ahead of the release of the Senate's controversial CIA torture report. The report goes online in three and a half hours. It contains details about waterboarding and other enhanced interrogation techniques used by the CIA post-9/11. It is expected to anger extremists. It could trigger attacks against Americans worldwide.

Protests rattling both the East and West Coast over the Michael Brown and Eric Garner cases. About 1,000 demonstrators shut down parts of I-80 in Berkeley, California, despite police in riot gear blocking ramps to the freeway. Some demonstrators even blocked an Amtrak train.

In a letter to the parents -- parents, rather, of students, University of Virginia president Theresa Sullivan outlining changes to address sexual misconduct on her campus. They include unarmed security ambassadors and a new school policy that's in line with federal mandates. All of this comes in the wake of a "Rolling Stone" article about an alleged gang rape at a frat party. Sullivan says event though the facts of that story, some of them of which are in dispute, sexual assaults do occur on campus and that they have no place on any campus.

Well, it seems that royalty collided at the Cavs/Nets game. Not only did Prince William and Duchess Kate meet pop royalty Queen Bey and Jay-Z Monday night, they also -- well, they happened to be sitting courtside as NBA superstar "King James" and the Cleveland Cavaliers beat the Brooklyn Nets. The royals will visit the 9/11 memorial today. They will also attend a charity event for their alma mater today before returning home.

So hard to believe it was their first visit to New York.

CAMEROTA: Right. I agree. Overdue. Yes.

CUOMO: I liked it. I like it, she looks great. They're doing the right thing. Fighting for wildlife preservation. It's all good. Right? What you can't argue with -- come on, a softball for you -- what's going on in politics, right? Come on.

CAMEROTA: You can always argue with John King.

CUOMO: There it is.

CAMEROTA: And we like to do that on "Inside Politics."

CUOMO: True American royalty. John King.

JOHN KING, CNN HOST, "INSIDE POLITICS": I'm here in the morning so he can argue with me and give you guys a break, Michaela and Alisyn. That's my job here in the morning, give you guys a breather.

CAMEROTA: Thank you.

KING: Busy time in Washington. Let's go "Inside Politics" this morning. With me to share their reporting and their insights, Jackie Kucinich of the "Washington Post," Olivia Knox of Yahoo! News.

Let's start with, today at home, if you've ever wondered what it's like to be a pinata, watch the House of Representatives today because Jonathan Gruber, you may not know that name -- if you follow health care policy, maybe you do. He's an economist; he's noted in both camps (ph) for being a relatively brilliant economist when it comes to health are nubmers. But he's going to be in the chair at a House committee hearing today because he had said a number of things that Republicans believe A) prove he's arrogant, and B) that they hope helps them in their efforts, going on for several years now, to repeal Obamacare.

First, a refresher course. Here's Jonathan Gruber.