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New Day

Deadline Looming for Prisoner Swap Deal Between Jordan and ISIS; Boston Recovering from Large Snowstorm; Interview with Jen Psaki; Near-Brawl Inside St. Louis City Hall

Aired January 29, 2015 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The clock is ticking. Will the Jordanians comply with the terror group's demands?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not sure Jordan can go ahead without an assurance that they're going to get their pilot up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We'll never give up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're holding the word hostage by doing this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I haven't seen snow like this since '78.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was pretty brutal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, my gosh, it was a mess. It was up to my hips.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The water was rising so fast we had waves in the backyard. The four windows, they all came out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much more here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We just saw a process in his own hearing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He started going off.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two or three other antipolice radicals rushed other and then it escalated.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is unfortunate that the city has the kinds of divisions that it presently has.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo, Alisyn Camerota, and Michaela Pereira.

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CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome to your NEW DAY. It is Thursday, January 29th, now 8:00 in the east. Only 90 minutes until a deadline set by the terrorists known as ISIS will pass and one, maybe two lives are on the line. They say they are prepared to kill a Jordanian pilot and maybe a Japanese hostage if a convicted female terrorist is not returned before the sun goes down. That audio message was purportedly delivered by the other hostage in question here, Kenji Goto. He's the second ISIS hostage. Remember, his life also potentially on the line.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: So, of course, Jordan is under a lot of pressure to bring its pilot home. And what about that Japanese hostage? Will he be part of the deal as well? In a moment we will ask the spokeswoman from the State Department about the perils of negotiating with terrorists.

But first, let's get the latest from CNN's Will Ripley. He is live in Tokyo for us. What do we know at this hour, Will?

WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We'll, we know the Jordanian government through state TV is putting out an urgent alert. And at this moment they are still working to verify the authenticity of this latest ISIS propaganda video purportedly with the voice of Kenji Goto saying that if this deal doesn't happen within the next 90 minutes that the Jordanian pilot Muadh al-Kasasbeh will be killed. The deal that ISIS proposes in the video is Kenji Goto exchanged at the border between Syria and southern Turkey in exchange for Sajida al-Rishawi, that Iraqi woman held in a prison in Jordan for a terror attack that killed almost 60 people.

Now, given this timeframe and what we know about the geography here, the ISIS stronghold of Raqqa where Kenji Goto was believed to be headed in October when he was captured, it's about 50 miles from the border, which means that within the next hour they would have to start transporting Goto to some sort of an area where an exchange would take place. We know that Jordan has said they are prepared to hand over al-Rishawi, which means that she is probably positioned somewhere close to the border as well.

But with the clock ticking down minute by minute, will this deal come together or will it fall apart. If the latter happens, there is grave fear not only for the life of al-Kasasbeh but also for the life of Kenji Goto, the Japanese journalist who we've talked about so much, the Jordanian pilot that many in his country fear the worst will happen if this deal isn't worked out. So the clock is ticking. We'll keep watching what happens, Chris.

CUOMO: Will, that's the dilemma. It's so easy to say just ignore them, they're terrorists. But now lives are on the line. We'll check back in with you, let us know if there any developments.

Let's bring in CNN national security commentator and former House Intelligence Committee chairman, Mike Rogers. Mike, as you know, it's hard for me not to call you congressman. I have too much respect for the office that you held. And today I don't have to, because I want you to play, put your hat on as a congressman, as a U.S. government representative, and answer this question for me. Does the U.S. negotiate with terrorists?

MIKE ROGERS, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY COMMENTATOR: Well, their policy shouldn't be. I think the Taliban five when they traded the five senior Taliban commanders for Sergeant Bergdahl certainly muddied the water. The Taliban is not a nation state. It hasn't signed up to any protocols for the treatment of prisoners, anything like that. So that certainly muddied the waters.

CUOMO: Right.

ROGERS: And here you have to respect Jordan's effort, but think about what's happened here, Chris. They have just a grip on the psyche of America right now, of Japan, of Jordan. It slows down any real effort to try to combat what is a lethal, brutal -- this is a group that's raped, beheaded, killed people, summarily executed them in the streets to gain control.

CUOMO: Right.

ROGERS: And we can't forget that in this whole process.

CUOMO: I know. There's no question it's a complex situation. Is the media helping, hurting? Where is the line? But I think that line also has to be applied to the governments here. The U.S. is coming off as hypocritical. They're saying don't' negotiate with them. Don't do it. Don't do it. But you do it. You do it. You just did it with Bowe Bergdahl, you've done it in the '80s, you've done it before, you've done it without telling us. So why is it so wrong for the Jordanians or the Japanese to want to try to save their own lives?

ROGERS: And, again, you're not dealing with a nation state. And so are you raising up their level of the credibility of ISIS who is, again, a terrorist organization that holds land the size of Indiana? That's the problem here. And so you're not dealing with a rational nation state.

I don't believe that they ever intended for this to happen. The first ransom amount was $200 million. That is completely irrational in any negotiation. They never had a line, a connection with the United States on the journalist Foley who they ended up beheading. I think they asked $130 million for him. They want the PR. They want exactly what's happening right now. That's why I think those, and including me, are saying I would be very cautious about trying to engage in this public circus, really, about a negotiation that I don't believe that they're interested in. They're just interested in the circus.

CUOMO: All right, so let's say you want to -- you don't want to give them oxygen, you don't want to feed the fire. So the alternative then is to do nothing and then wait for the video to come out with the horrible circumstance, right?

ROGERS: Well, again, I don't know if the pilot's even still alive. We need to understand something. The fate of those two Japanese hostages I believe was already made when they set that price at $200 million. They signaled that they were not interested in real negotiation. So we need to understand where we're at. It's hard. This is a difficult decision. It's a hard decision. But if we focus all on this and not how we're going to disrupt their ability to take more hostages, I think -- I don't think we're approaching it the correct way, Chris. CUOMO: It's very hard. Obviously for U.S. pilot or U.S. service men,

the disposition of the U.S. government may be different because there would be more skin in the game for them. All right, so that's one very difficult situation. Let's go to an easier one. Let's talk about Israeli/Arab relations right now and what's going on with Hezbollah. Do you believe we're headed back into another full-scale conflict like we saw in Lebanon some years ago?

ROGERS: This started when the Israelis struck a target in Syria and killed some senior Iranian officials and some believe some Hezbollah people were associated with that as well. So they argued, at least Hezbollah argued this was retaliatory. I don't think Israel needs to go there now. I think Netanyahu would like to have a response, but I think it would be targeted and small. He doesn't need a broadening conflict. Certainly Hezbollah is under pressure as well. They're engaged in Syria, in that fight with ISIS and others and rebels and other factions.

So I don't think either one wants to escalate it. I think they were both trying to make a point. The unfortunate part of that is somebody may make a miss calculation and this thing blows out of control. That's what my concern is.

CUOMO: The Israeli spokesperson, the IDF spokesperson we had on this morning didn't answer the question, but explain the situation for us. When I asked, is it true that you hit in Syria and took out some of Hezbollah's guys and that's why this happened, the answer was, Hezbollah is a terrorist organization. They're trying to destroy us, and we have to protect ourselves everywhere we can. Why is the Israel argument of our offense is the best defense OK with the United States?

ROGERS: Well, again, you have to understand that in 2006 the last real contact with Hezbollah was a very offensive operation by Hezbollah. They launched rockets, they helped Hamas. They were shooting at civilians. Their target is civilians in these launches. So if you know that group is operating against you and you know where they are, just like the United States takes offensive lethal strikes in order to prevent terrorist attacks at home, Israel participates in the same activities. They're not going to acknowledge it. That's not who they are or what they do, mainly because they don't want to tell people exactly how they knew where these folks were and how they were able to target them. So they're not going to talk about it. These are covert operations. But I can tell you, they're going to be very aggressive about protecting what they believe is a serious threat to the lives of their citizens.

CUOMO: So the good news in the situation, if there's any, is that we don't see this leading to bigger things. We have Hezbollah and Israel both say they're not looking for escalation and that's as good as we can hope for.

ROGERS: That's as good as we can hope for. Again, the only thing we worry about, Chris, is a miscalculation. Somebody miscalculates the other's intention and it spirals out of control before they can put a cap on it. CUOMO: And just to be very clear on the other topic we were

discussing, when you were in office and the Bergdahl trade was on the table, you were against it. You were holding firm to the position we don't deal with these guys in the U.S. even if it means we lose a life?

ROGERS: I was opposed to it then and I'm still opposed to it. One of the things they teach you as a young FBI agent, I used to be an FBI agent, is never negotiate with terrorists, you'll get more terrorists. One thing we saw after the Bergdahl exchange, lots of chatter. Bad guys talking to other bad guys in the Middle East saying, hey, this worked. Maybe we should find other western hostages. And, by the way, if we know any other group that has a western hostage, maybe we can negotiate to get them to use this leverage. That's a dangerous kind of chatter to hear right after that exchange.

CUOMO: Even though it feels like the right thing you are creating precedent. I understand. It's hard.

ROGERS: It's very difficult.

CUOMO: That's why we need good leadership. Representative Mike Rogers, now CNN analyst, thank you very much for being with us.

ROGERS: Thanks, Chris.

CUOMO: Michaela?

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Chris, we have some breaking news. We have learned that the United Kingdom scrambled jets to intercept two Russian bombers that have entered the U.K. so-called area of interest over the English Channel. The royal air force escorted the bombers Wednesday for about an hour-and-a-half until they left British airspace. Officials say they never did actually enter U.K. airspace.

Former secretary of state Hillary Clinton is reportedly thinking of delaying a presidential bid until July. That's three months later than we had previously heard. This is according to "Politico." Top Democrats say Clinton is taking her time because she can. No major challengers on the Democratic side are expected.

CUOMO: Whatever you are doing, stop because this matters. You ready? Beer may help fend off brain disorders. Here it is. A new study, a compound found in hops, one of the delicious ingredients of beer, could protect brain cells from damage and potentially slow the development of disorders such as Alzheimer's and Parkinson's diseases. The study is in the "Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry," which is known to never be wrong.

CAMEROTA: Is that right? What do they say about tequila? I ask for you, I ask for your health.

CUOMO: They say tequila can regrow hair and increase the ability to do math.

(LAUGHTER)

CAMEROTA: Clearly exhibit A.

PEREIRA: I'm done for because I cannot stand the taste of hops.

CUOMO: If I've said it once, I've said it 100 times, beer is --

(LAUGHTER)

PEREIRA: All right, let's talk about weather because there is a mess out there in parts of New England, three feet of snow on the ground in some places, thousands of people still without power. But life for New Englanders slowly returning to normal. CNN meteorologist Jennifer Gray far from feeling like her life is returning to normal. She's live in Boston. We know there's more trouble on the way.

JENNIFER GRAY, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yes, you're right, more trouble. We're going to see two more snowstorms in the next couple of days. But like you said, Boston is slowly returning to normal in the time being. The ferry is back up and running. We've seen a lot more foot traffic through here, people returning to work. We did see a lot of delays yesterday on the T. All the lines were delayed, but that is expected to get better and better day by day.

Look behind me, the snow mounds. Schools are once again canceled for today. Most of the interstates clear. A lot of those side streets are not. And look at this, the sidewalks and these mounds behind me from all of the plowing, that's one of the reasons school was canceled. The school buses can't even see the kids standing on the other side of those mounds waiting for the bus. So safety precautions, they did cancel school.

Let's get to that forecast though because I want to show you what's going to be happening in the next couple of days. Pretty interesting, of course. We'll time this out. We are expecting another round of snow, light snow for tonight through tomorrow morning. Of course, could linger Friday night into Saturday morning. We could pick up as little as an inch, worst case scenario, though, about four inches. Of course, if it's on the higher scale, then it will be another plow-able snow. We all know what that means. You have to bring out the plows and get those streets cleared one again.

So we do have that system. We also have another one on the way just behind it, and it will be here by Sunday into Monday. Still a lot of uncertainty with the track on that. Some of the models are taking it offshore around the mid-Atlantic completely missing the northeast altogether. Other models are showing, dumping a few inches of snow once again on Monday.

So we're going to watch those very closely. In the meantime temperatures will stay very, very cold. We barely get to freezing for today. It looks like we'll stay cold tomorrow as well and then take a nose dive back in the teens for the weekend. So two systems to watch. Of course, this is January into February. We do expect snow here in Boston. That's what it does. But when you have almost two feet of snow right behind me and more in some places, of course, more snow is not what you want to hear, guys.

CAMEROTA: Absolutely. Jennifer, that has piled up to more than two feet right behind you. It's almost over your head. Thanks so much for the forecast there as well.

Well, the fate of two ISIS hostages hangs in the balance at this hour. We will talk with the U.S. State Department about this deal.

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CAMEROTA: Can the Jordanian government respond to the latest ultimatum from ISIS in the next hour before the deadline to release an al Qaeda terrorist or will ISIS follow its usual brutal course and execute the Jordanian pilot?

Let's bring in State Department spokesperson Jen Psaki for more.

Good morning.

JEN PSAKI, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESPERSON: Good morning, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Nice to see you, Jen.

PSAKI: Good to see you.

CAMEROTA: What can you see about the status of the Japanese and Jordanian hostages this morning?

PSAKI: Well, we are watching closely just like you are, just like many people around the world are. I think as important friends, allies, partners of the United States, our hearts and minds are with the people of Japan, the people of Jordan.

But this is an incredibly fluid and incredibly sensitive information -- situation. So, I can't predict what's going to happen. I don't know if anyone can.

CAMEROTA: Why do you object to the Jordanian government attempting this deal with ISIS?

PSAKI: Well, first of all, I think that's an overstatement. Our view and our position as the United States government is that we don't make concessions to terrorists. Now there are certain circumstances, and you've been talking a little bit about Bowe Bergdahl this morning, where he was a member of the military, someone who had volunteered to serve his country and we don't leave our men and women behind. We took steps to bring him home.

CAMEROTA: Isn't the Jordanian pilot a member of their military and the Jordanians don't want to leave him behind?

PSAKI: He is. And Jordan is a sovereign country.

We're simply stating what our positions are and this is no question, Alisyn -- and that's why we're all talking about this, this is a complicated situation. It's not just one hostage. There are hostages from Japan. There are hostages from many countries around the world.

So, we need to see what happens here and, of course, we'll address it as it happens.

CAMEROTA: Are you as the State Department sending messages to Jordan that they should not engage in any sort of prisoner swap with ISIS?

PSAKI: Well, unfortunately, because of our own American hostages and the terrible tragedies and horrific acts that happened last year, we've been talking quite a bit about what our positions are.

So, there are no secrets about that. I think the world knows where the United States stands. We have been engaged with both the government of Jordan and the government of Japan, but given how sensitive this situation is I'm just not going to lay that out further.

CAMEROTA: But, I mean, of course, we are in a bit of a conundrum because as you've said, the U.S. never negotiations with terrorists except those times that we do --

PSAKI: Well --

CAMEROTA: -- such as the Bowe Bergdahl situation with the Taliban.

I mean, it's hard for us to have truly the high moral ground on this, isn't it?

PSAKI: It's a little bit unfair to state it that way, I have to say.

Look, we have positions for a reason. It's not just to have the position. We believe that when you make concessions to terrorists, it puts more American citizens at risk, paying ransoms and negotiating can do that.

Now, we have a policy, of course, for the men and women who volunteer to serve our country and proudly do that around the world. I don't think anyone is suggesting we should leave them behind. That's our policy. Every country has a different policy and this has been an international debate for good reason, and I think that will unfortunately continue.

CAMEROTA: Let me read for you what the father of the Jordanian pilot is -- the plea that he is making. He says, "We want Jordan to withdraw from the coalition," he means of fighting ISIS, to ensure the safety of our sons. This is not our war."

Then, he refers to the female al Qaeda prisoner. "Who is Sajida to us? Sajida is a burden on us. Let them release her."

You know, it's hard to argue with a father's logic. They don't want to be any part of this ISIS battle.

PSAKI: Well, Alisyn, I think anyone can relate to the pain and suffering that a father and mother is feeling in this case. Unfortunately, we have many American fathers and mothers who have been feeling that as well.

But, look, we can't -- we're not going to just say okay to terrorists and just bend to their threats. The United States is not going to do that. The government of Jordan is not going to do that. We need to degrade and defeat ISIL so that this is not a threat that is facing the world in the future. So, no, we can't as governments bend to their threats but we can have compassion for the pain and suffering of families around the world.

CAMEROTA: I want to move on to what's happening in Israel right now because as you know there is -- I should say in the Golan Heights. There is tension escalating there after two Israeli soldiers were shot. We have a bulletin that I was just handed moments ago. This comes from Israel's defense minister who says his country has received a message from Hezbollah via intermediaries calling for de-escalation of hostilities on the Israel/Lebanon border.

Do you know anything about this? Do you know the status of hostilities there at this hour?

PSAKI: I don't have any more details on that. As you mentioned, it sounds like that just came out, though it is important for people who are watching this closely to know that there's been a U.N. Security Council resolution that has been keeping a moderate amount of peace in this area for the last about eight plus years. Certainly, we all want to see a reduction in hostilities and tensions and I think that's in the interests of people on both sides. At the same time, we understand Israel's right to defend themselves and protect their own people.

CAMEROTA: Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says he tweeted out Iran is responsible for this. Iran is responsible for yesterday's attack against us from Lebanon. This is the same Iran that is now trying to achieve an agreement that would leave it with the ability to develop nuclear weapons.

What's your response to Netanyahu?

PSAKI: Well, Alisyn, there's no question that Iran and Hezbollah have a troubling relationship that goes back some time. I don't -- we don't have any confirmation of what's been tweeted there or the backup behind that, I should say.

But putting that aside, there's no question that preventing Iran from acquiring a nuclear weapon is in the interests of the United States, it's in the interests of Iran. I mean, I'm sorry in Iran, yes, because of the sanctions. It's in the interests of the global community.

That is separate from concerns we have about them -- their state sponsorship of terrorism which continues, their human rights abuses. Those are issues that we will need to continue to address, but preventing them from having a nuclear weapon is what the focus is of the negotiations.

CAMEROTA: OK, Jen Psaki, thanks so much for the information. PSAKI: Thanks, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Thanks for coming on NEW DAY.

PSAKI: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Let's go over to Chris.

CUOMO: All right. Another big story -- a city meeting in St. Louis breaks into chaos. We're going to talk live with a police union official who is at the center of it about why things got so out of control.

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PEREIRA: Breaking overnight, chaos in the chambers of St. Louis City Hall all caught on camera, meeting about civilian oversight of police turned ugly and quickly.

In a moment, we're going to speak with one of the people involved. First, Sara Sidner has the story.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First of all, you cannot tell me --

(SHOUTING)

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Chaos unfolding last night between citizens and police at a public meeting in St. Louis, Missouri. The meeting: over a bill intended to improve relations between the community and the police, yet the meeting achieved anything but.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You've heard from speakers before me.

SIDNER: One city police officer Curtis Bergdorf (ph) at the podium, expressing his disapproval for the new bill to establish a civilian oversight board over police work.

Seconds later, the room erupts into shouts, profanity and a shoving match. Protesters blame police union business manager Jeff Roorda who openly displayed an "I am Darren Wilson" wrist band, igniting tension. And then he and a woman ended up in a confrontation.

It's unclear from the video who started it. Roorda says protesters shouted police down and he stood up to object.

JEFF ROORDA, ST. LOUIS POLICE OFFICER'S ASSOCIATION BUSINESS MANAGER: As I tried to exit she continued to do that. Two or three other anti- police radicals rushed over and things de-escalated or escalated from there.

REPORTER: You didn't push a woman, though?

ROORDA: No, no. SIDNER: Cachet Currie says she is no radical but a citizen and Roorda

shoved her.

CATCHET CURRIE, CLAIMS JEFF ROORDA SHOVED HER: I was getting up to leave and I guess Jeff Roorda and Terry Kennedy were having words. Roorda jumped out into the aisle and pushed me over trying to get to Kennedy. I'm like, wait a second, don't push me (ph).

SIDNER: The sponsor of the bill, Alderman Antonio French tweeted, "We saw once again tonight how fractured our city remains. We have a lot of work to do."

This just the last confrontation following months of unrest in the wake of the death of Michael Brown and the acquittal of the Ferguson police officer, Darren Wilson, who shot him.

Sara Sidner, CNN, Los Angeles.

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PEREIRA: Joining us now is Jeff Roorda, the St. Louis Police Union official who you saw was involved in that melee. Hopefully, cooler heads are prevailing this morning, in the light of day.