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New Day

Obama: 'We Are Not at War with Islam'; Kurdish Forces Battling Latest ISIS Surge; Jeb Bush: 'I'm My Own Man' on Foreign Policy; Ukraine Calls for U.N. Peacekeepers; Arctic Temperatures Invading U.S.; ISIS Advances in Iraq Despite Airstrikes

Aired February 19, 2015 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: ISIL and groups like it are desperate for legitimacy.

Savage cruelties going on out there that have to be stopped. We're not at war with Islam. We are at war with people who have perverted Islam.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Italian government deploying counterterrorism police.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It needs to be more than just Italy. It has to be the coalition against the Islamic State.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Jihadist group said they would hang their black flag over St. Peter's Square.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Incoherent, nonsensical even erratic.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her brother was talking about pigs sucking on his soul.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, welcome to NEW DAY. It's Thursday, February 19th, just before 6:00 in the east. Alisyn and Michaela are off and Chris Cuomo is here along with Brianna Keilar and John Berman, and we do have important news to share.

President Obama declares the U.S. is not at war with Islam, but then who are we at war with exactly?

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: In his most direct comments yet, the president urging Muslim leaders to fight the misconception that groups like ISIS speak for them. The debate over what to call the violent extremists as a distraction for the administration as a three-day summit wraps up today. Let's begin our team coverage now with Michelle Kosinski live for us at the White House -- Michelle.

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Brianna. We heard the president saying we have to confront twisted ideology squarely and honestly, but for the last couple of weeks, this White House has taken flack from some for never saying the words Islamic extremism and seemingly not want to talk about that being part of it, even though when you look at the programs that are highlighted during the summit domestically they're all focused on Muslim communities.

Well, finally the president addressed that criticism head-on. He explained it, as well as calling on communities themselves to take responsibility.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Al Qaeda and ISIL and groups like it are desperate for legitimacy. They try to portray themselves as religious leaders, holy warriors in defense of Islam.

And we are not at war with Islam. We are at war with people who have perverted Islam.

Just as leaders like myself reject the notion that terrorists like ISIL genuinely represent Islam, Muslim leaders need to do more to discredit the notion that our nations are determined to suppressed Islam.

If we're going to prevent people from being susceptible to the false promises of extremism, then the international community has to offer something better. There will be a military component to this. There are savage cruelties going on out there that have to be stopped.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOSINSKI: So today we'll hear from the president again addressing foreign ministers and other leaders from around the world. When you look at some of these programs that are being talked about here, they're more practical than you might expect. I mean, people talking about certain ways to identify warning signs. Or provide opportunities for young people in these communities. That was a big one that was talked about again and again, as well as addressing online propaganda. As one mayor in Belgium put it, radicalism begins where integration ends -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Michelle Kosinski for us at the White House. Thank you.

And now to the war against ISIS. As the terror group tries to gain more ground in Iraq, there's a big question: can Kurdish forces continue to fight off the latest wave of attacks?

Let's go now to CNN senior international correspondent Ben Wedeman. We find him on the outskirts of Erbil. Tell us about what you've seen near where you are, Ben?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. What we have here is a situation that definitely, just 24 hours ago, there was a concerted assault by ISIS on positions just up the river from here.

Now they were -- they were repulsed, thanks to coalition aircraft, but that was an assault that has people concerned. Now the latest we have is within the last hour and a half, there were coalition airstrikes near that place where the battle took place. And according to our sources, they hit two positions, killed somewhere between seven and eight ISIS fighters.

But the fact that, after more than six months of these coalition aircraft, that the -- ISIS can still launch these assaults, is a cause for concern of many people here.

Also of concern for Iraqis elsewhere are these reports that as many as 40 people were burned alive in Anbar province in the town of Baghdadi. Now Iraqi officials -- provincial officials have made these claims. But we haven't seen any video yet. The problem is, of course, at this point, no matter how awful the stories you're hearing about ISIS, they tend to be true -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Ben Wedeman, outside of Erbil. Thank you.

And let's get more now on the politics of fighting extremism with Kevin Madden. He's CNN's political commentator and Republican strategist. He's also a partner with Hamilton Place Strategies. And we have Paul Begala with us, as well, CNN political commentator, Democratic strategist and senior adviser for the Super PAC Priorities USA Action.

All right. Let's get into some of what the president said. I want to listen right now. He said we're not at war with Islam. He didn't use the terms "Islamic extremism" and "Islamic terrorism." Let's listen to more of what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: The terrorists do not speak for over a billion Muslims who reject their hateful ideology. They no more represent Islam than any madman who kills innocents in the name of God represents Christianity or Buddhism or Hinduism. No religion is responsible for terrorism. People are responsible for violence and terrorism.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: But Paul, you just heard from our report from Michelle Kosinski, a lot of the programs that he's announced are targeting Muslim communities. Is this sort of a contradiction between what he's not saying and what he is doing?

PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: To me it's the same thing. You're not bashing a religion of a billion people, which by the way there's over three million Muslims in America, some of whom serve in Congress, many of whom serve in the military, a few of whom lie in honor at Arlington National Cemetery. So you do not want to trash your own people and a great religion. But you want to reach out; you want to engage.

I think he's exactly right. It's the first rule of psychological warfare is to deny your enemy the propaganda that he wants. The first letter of ISIS is "I" for Islam. They want to claim Islam. If we give that to them, they've won an enormous propaganda victory. I think the president is exactly right there.

CUOMO: Begala, that's your take.

Now Kevin Madden, I want you to make the case for why he is exactly wrong. Because when you talk to Muslims, whether they are just rank- and-file Muslims or they're part of a government, you know what they often refer to these extremists as? Muslim extremists. They acknowledge it. Why won't the president, and why create nuance where it doesn't seem to be helping?

KEVIN MADDEN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think -- look, I think that Paul is actually right. I think Paul -- that the president is trying not to offend those who are members of the religion that they believe is being perverted in the name of terrorism.

But I think the big problem that this creates for the president is that this focus on terminology, this focus on trying to designate what the source is, is that many of the president's critics, I think it emboldens them. In their mind it believes -- it shows that the president doesn't understand the true nature of the threat. And as it relates to that, you know, it distracts the president from the real focus at hand which should be marshalling resources to combat this threat, to target ISIS and to eventually eliminate it.

CUOMO: Right. And...

MADDEN: And I think that criticism comes also from within the president's own party. You know, Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard was on CNN just yesterday, criticizing the president for not being more open in acknowledging what the true source of some of this extremism is.

CUOMO: Right. I think, Paul, it comes down to -- Brianna and I were just talking about this before the show. What you're getting out of this. Who is telling him that this is the way to do it, that it matters somehow, especially at of the cost of pissing off Christians? When he says, you know, "We don't call a madman who's a Christian -- we don't blame Christianity." We would if he was part if he was part of a group that called themselves the Christian Warriors Association. You would say, "This guy's a bad Christian, but he's a Christian."

BEGALA: Baloney. Baloney. The animals who blew up the Oklahoma City building claimed Christianity. We never called Tim McVeigh a Christian terrorist. They called themselves...

CUOMO: But they were not overtly saying, "We're all about Christianity. That's why we're doing this."

BEGALA: But they were in a movement -- you're just wrong, buddy. They were in a movement that called itself the Christian Identity movement. We did not give them that -- that name of Christianity, because they were not Christians. They were terrorists; they were animals. They targeted innocent people, and they killed them. And we dealt with them.

CUOMO: Do you think that it helps the conversation to try and draw a parallel between Christianity and Islam? Do you think that that's helping the president's messaging on this?

BEGALA: I don't think he's drawing parallels. He's saying -- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, a great Muslim-American, he I thought made a great parallel. He said ISIS represents Islam about the same way that the KKK represents Christianity. Now the KKK uses the cross as its symbol, but it is not a Christian group. It's a terrorist group.

KEILAR: And you...

MADDEN: The answer to your question is no. And I think these false equivalencies, again, they distract from what the American people really want to see the president focus on, is what's the strategy to target and eliminate this threat? A threat that's hurting -- that is a threat to the Mideast region and is ultimately becoming a threat to American national security interests.

KEILAR: OK. But so what about that, though? I mean, obviously, there's so much focus on rhetoric. Kevin, you said that it's too much, and it gives the president's critics a toehold to slam him on this.

But they're not just criticizing the rhetoric. They're also criticizing his strategy here. He's clearly taking what he would describe as a long view, a battle for the hearts and minds. And yet, he's getting criticized by Republicans for that.

MADDEN: Well, he's also being criticized by some Democrats. I think if you look at the debate that's now shifted over to the authorization of the use of military force, the president had to get that action just right up on Capitol Hill. And instead, it seems to be stalled.

That would be something that would be really important for the president if he is going to advance a strategy to target and eliminate ISIS, but instead he's got some Democrats who think maybe the AUMF goes too far, and there are some Republicans who think it doesn't go far enough.

And there are legitimate concerns, I think, both on Capitol Hill and with the American public that there's a comprehensive, cohesive strategy to actually take on this threat.

KEILAR: And gentlemen, while we have you here, we do want to talk to you about Jeb Bush. He said some pretty important things yesterday during a key foreign policy speech. He said, "I am my own man when it comes to foreign policy." Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEB BUSH (R), FORMER FLORIDA GOVERNOR: Look, just for the record, one more time, I love my brother. I love my dad. Actually love my mother, as well. I hope that's OK. And I admire their service to the nation and the difficult decisions that they had to make. But I'm my own man, and my views are shaped by my own thinking and my own experiences.

(END VIDEO CLIP) KEILAR: He's his own man, and yet he's also said he doesn't want to litigate the things of the past. Basically talked about his brother and about his father. I just can't imagine, Paul, that this can persist. Doesn't he have to break with George W. Bush and George H.W. Bush at some point?

BEGALA: I don't know if he has to break with them. But he certainly -- every candidate for president has to answer whether certain strategic decisions -- more made by George W. Bush, frankly -- were right or wrong.

Here's what, just as a political guy, here's what he did completely wrong. If your point is to go out and say, "I'm my own man," you do not on the same day release a list of your foreign policy advisers, 17 of whom, almost all of them, the vast majority, 17, were advisers to George W. Bush. So if your point is I'm my own man, show that you're surrounded by your own men and women who are advising you. He's a big environmentalist, because he's recycling all of his brother's failed advisers.

CUOMO: Let me ask you this, Kevin.

MADDEN: Yes.

CUOMO: The idea of him having to explain his family -- I get it. But that's what he is. He's a Bush, and that's what he is. Who has come out and taken on the two Bushes or the most recent Bush, their legacy about foreign policy? Why should Jeb Bush have to be the one to have to carry that mantle? None of them are.

MADDEN: Well, look, I think that is the point of that remark in the speech yesterday, which is that ultimately every candidate who's running for president still has to answer for themselves. They can't really answer for anybody else. And this was an opportunity for him to maybe chart a new course.

The big challenge, I think, going forward is that you can say it in a speech that your own man -- you're your own man, but you have to now demonstrate it. I think that's one of the challenges.

Paul pointed out what the Democratic tag line is going to be this. It's like, no, he's not his own man, because he's listening to the same people who advised his father and his brother. So that is going to be a challenge going forward for him to step out of that shadow and to show the American people that this is an entirely different vision that he has for the country and that he has an entirely different style of governing.

KEILAR: You know, maybe his biggest challenge.

All right, Kevin Madden, Paul Begala, thanks to both of you.

CUOMO: By the way, Begala, McVeigh referred to himself as an agnostic. Go Google that, and I'll talk to you about it online.

BEGALA: He was trained -- we can go through -- he was trained in Kansas or Nebraska at one of these Christian Identity camp movements.

CUOMO: Yes, yes.

BEGALA: No.

CUOMO: You're fishing. And that salmon you caught was 15 inches long. I don't buy any of it.

Thank you, fellows, for joining us.

We're going to have more on ISIS throughout the morning. In our next hour, we're going to talk to Iraq's ambassador to the United States, because another big thing the president talked about was how the problem is recruitment of people who are disaffected and oppressed. And that's happening a lot in that region. So we'll see what Iraq's ownership is of that problem -- John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, there's another huge international story. The remnants of the ceasefire in Ukraine quickly dissolving if they ever existed.

Leaders of Ukraine, Russia, France and Germany have agreed to make another push to get all sides to abide by the deal which was reached just last week. This comes on the heels of a major strategic loss for Ukraine, which saw all of its troops abandon a key town after clashes with the pro-Russian rebels right there.

Our Nick Paton Walsh joins us live from that town, Debaltseve in eastern Ukraine, a crucial rail hub. Nick, you're the only western journalist there. Give us a sense of what you're seeing.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Only Western journalist live here, John. We are seeing behind us a building which I was at two weeks ago, and it was then held by the Ukrainians.

Now there are still the same old women in the basement we saw two weeks ago. They haven't left at all. Just heard the horrifying noise of shelling all around them and what devastation that has wrought to the town around us here.

The streets littered with damaged armored vehicles. A strange quiet, though, across it. Many houses damaged, I think frankly, very few have escaped unscathed. But people emerging for the first time. They said last night was the first quiet night they had heard in a very long time.

Now we understand there are still Ukrainian soldiers, some distance in the edge of the town. You occasionally hear small-arms fire. They seem to have remnants in this town. But it is firmly under separatist control.

And behind me, they've been giving out humanitarian aid, food, to many of the people here who are furious at the damage done to their town. Many have no idea how they can begin to rebuild their lives.

But why is this town so important? Because it wasn't dealt with properly, say the separatists, in the Minsk peace agreement. It was a town that the Ukrainian government wanted to hold on to, that they sent thousands of troops in to try and hold, but the separatists encircled. It's become, really, a symbol of where this war is going. And the separatists better equipped, NATO and the Ukraine say, with Russian weapons, even soldiers have very effectively stormed across there, forcing that withdrawal yesterday.

But it is stunning, John, to go around streets, to see people emerging for the first time, carrying people back to their homes, back some to the basements even where they've been trying to survive through this intense bombardment. But above all, to see this town now firmly in separatist hands, with the question still hanging, this violence happened during a supposed ceasefire. Does that mean that there will be more violence ahead or are we perhaps going to see a truce of some description, John?

BERMAN: You know, Nick, now the Ukrainian leader, Petro Poroshenko was calling for United Nations or E.U. peace-keeping force to come into that country, leave aside the notion that Russia probably would never accept that to begin with. But if that did happen, it would freeze in place these enormous territorial gains for the pro-Russian rebels over the last few weeks.

WALSH: Well, there are some who say that the goal has always been to create a frozen conflict. The borders established by the separatists, just effectively stay as they are, no real permanent legal agreement. But effectively, this part of Ukraine sort of secedes in some way.

But there are others, and many of the separatist fighters we talked to say the ambition is larger. They want to retake all of the Donetsk region. And perhaps after a military victory like this, they may feel they have the weaponry -- we've clearly seen the weaponry -- to continue to take more territory. That's the key thing.

There are still precedents now calling this a ceasefire. I'm hearing shelling in the distance. This town had enormous damage done to it. We don't know how many lost their lives, but enormous damage done to it during that supposed ceasefire. If this is a truce, then perhaps the separatist think they can continue to take more territory. That's what we have to see.

Does the seizing of Debaltseve mark the end of the separatist ambition? Or just the beginning of something else? That's what people here are most deeply concerned about. And that's, of course, what must be on the minds of the White House here. Are we looking at the borders of Europe being rewritten through this conflict -- John.

BERMAN: Our Nick Paton Walsh in Debaltseve right now, a city that has changed hands since the supposed ceasefire. Nick, important to see you there. Thanks so much.

KEILAR: The Justice Department could be preparing to sue the Ferguson, Missouri, Police Department. CNN has learned that officials could pursue legal action for a pattern of perceived racial discrimination at the police department if it doesn't agree to reviews -- sorry, review and revise those tactics. Attorney General Eric Holder says he expects the results of this investigations into the shooting of Michael Brown to be complete in the coming weeks.

CUOMO: All right. So nearly 200 Americans have been exposed to a deadly superbug. Two patient deaths have already been linked to a drug-resistant bacteria called CRE, seven other patients have developed infections, a special endoscopic procedure at UCLA Medical Center is believed to be behind it. Patients who had it between October and January are being sent home-testing kits, and the CDC says the superbug can resist most antibiotics and kills about half the people that it infects. We'll stay on it.

BERMAN: All right. As if you needed more proof that it is cold outside. Take a look at this -- that, Niagara Falls, partially frozen over. That sight drawing tourists, what I call agony tourism right there. People who want to be freezing for some reason, looking at frozen waterfalls. The temperature there right now is negative 2, and now with the wind chill it's about negative 20.

KEILAR: All right. That's beautiful, though. That's not agonizing.

CUOMO: From here.

BERMAN: It's a live shot. If you want to go, I know people who can get you there.

CUOMO: They always say Brianna is cool, but I don't know if she wants to be that cool.

Now, J.B. is known as an adventure traveler.

BERMAN: Yes, for sure.

CUOMO: Does the fact that part of the falls are frozen over give you a little bit of incentive to see if you can you make it over them now that some are frozen, even if you get an asterisk (ph)>

BERMAN: I don't want to be within 10 miles of Buffalo, let alone Niagara Falls when it's this temperature.

CUOMO: No part of you wants to be in a barrel? Not even for charity (ph)? Nothing?

BERMAN: No thank you.

CUOMO: All right. Let's ask somebody else. We have these dangerously low temperatures. They're hitting the Midwest today. That's no joke. So schools in cities including Chicago, Cincinnati, Cleveland, all closed again. Wind chill approaching 20 below. You just heard John talk about it. So the same problem spreading out across the country.

Look at this. This is a look at the northeast from 200 miles above the earth, shot by of course, NASA. That's all snow, the white stuff. Let's get to meteorologist Chad Myers, with the latest forecast. Already successfully made it over the falls three times; three barrels of different sizes. CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Hey, I was born in Buffalo. You've

got to take it easy on my town, OK? I'm as far upstate as you can get. It is cold everywhere. I'll tell you what. It's going to get colder tomorrow. We are already breaking records across parts of the Midwest into Lexington and Louisville. And it's going to be ten degrees colder tomorrow morning than it is right now.

Look at the wind chills, approaching 40 degrees below zero. Lexington, you're already at your record and you broke it. Pittsburgh, you're 1. Your old record is 8 below. You're not going to get there, but you may make it tomorrow. As the bulk of the cold air settles in today, the high in Detroit gets to 6. The morning low, 10 degrees below zero, that's 42 degrees below where your flesh or water will freeze. It's not just below zero. Below zero Celsius and below zero Fahrenheit are different. Until you get to 40 below, and then they're exactly the same.

But it is so very cold all across the Midwest, all across the East and all the way down even into Florida, where all the way down to Orlando tomorrow maybe, the low of 30 degrees. It will be covering plants, trying to save things outside. It will be that cold. And it stays that cold all the way through the weekend. Although a lot of the northeast warms up for a couple of days. Saturday, Sunday, New York, you get into the 40s.

But there's a chance of a little bit of icing coming in late in the weekend because the cold air, the ground is very cold; and the cold air still wants to stay in place, and it could settle there for the next few days. We'll keep watching it. There's the storm across the south. It may make some snow for D.C., may make some snow again for Richmond. This will be on Saturday into Sunday.

But enough's enough, I think. You know, really? The big story here is that I have one really nice graphic. A little bit of snow, but there's 28 days until spring.

CUOMO: That's it. Don't bury the lead, my brother. Don't bury the lead. Two things, I like that you personify the cold: it wants to stay; it's moving. I told you it's good to have an enemy that we can identify. Personifying the cold, very strong, and you need a new list of "It's so cold that, dot dot." Fill in the blanks for tomorrow.

MYERS: Yes, I feel like Jeff Foxworthy. It was so cold.

CUOMO: Yes, like you need like a few of those.

MYERS: OK. I'll work on that.

You're from Buffalo, you can do it. All right.

KEILAR: Thanks, Chad.

CUOMO: So the big news this morning, obviously, there are more airstrikes and more countries helping out. Yet ISIS keeps growing, so we're going to talk to the Iraqi ambassador, because he says he believes that the territory ISIS holds in Iraq will be taken back this year. Where does the confidence come from?

KEILAR: And the economy is improving, but Americans, are they giving the president credit? Are they even feeling this? We have the surprising results of a new CNN/ORC poll ahead.

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BERMAN: Despite months of U.S.-led airstrikes, ISIS is making gains in Iraq and Syria. Now the terror group looks to expand its footprint to make a move into territory in Libya. So is there a way to stop the advance before ISIS ends up with even more territory, perhaps even closer to Europe?

Joined now by Bobby Ghosh, CNN global affairs analyst, the managing editor of "Quartz." Bobby, I want to look at the map here, starting with where ISIS has been from the beginning. They took over Mosul. They rampaged into Iraq, and they have been here, what we're looking at, for six months, despite airstrike after airstrike after airstrike; haven't seemed to budge. Why not?

BOBBY GHOSH, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, these are -- these are densely populated areas. You've been to some of these towns, Talafar and Mosul. And the United States military back in the day fought vicious battles there to try and fight the previous iteration of ISIS, al Qaeda in Iraq.

They're very, very densely populated. It's very hard to conduct a military operation there. The United States doesn't have boots on the ground. The Iraqi military does not want to go sort of rampaging into their own cities and sort of destroying them. It would be hard for that to happen and to explain that politically.

So they're very, very well-entrenched there. They run those cities in a kind of reign of fear and terror. People are not happy to be living under is -- let's be clear about that -- but they're helpless to fight against them.

BERMAN: People no happier than perhaps have Shiite military or Shiite militias or Kurdish militias to come in and fight ISIS, the Sunni population. So that's what it's been like in six months? Let's take a look at what's happened over the last few weeks here, because there's been this spring offensive, really, from ISIS right now, waging new battles in Kirkuk, near Erbil, al-Baghdadi, where there are U.S. troops right there. What's ISIS doing?

GHOSH: Well, they've gone through a period of three or four months where they took no fresh territory; they've lost momentum. In fact, they've been pushed back in a few places, that dam in the north near Erbil, for instance. So they need to rally their own forces. This is a kind of spring offensive. It's not quite spring yet, but that is -- this is them sort of trying to fight back and regain the initiative. They're also testing, you know, the military trainers are there in al- Ayam (ph), that military base next to al-Baghdadi. They're testing the Iraqi forces to see where they're weakest. This is difficult ground for them to take, which is why they haven't taken it. BERMAN: They're not going to take Erbil. They're not going to take

Kirkuk. So the key word you're using right there is testing. They're doing this for a reason, other than territorial gains.

GHOSH: They're pushing the envelope to see where there might be any weakness. You've got to understand that, for them, they've already got the big prizes. They've got Mosul, which is Iraq's second biggest city.

This is them saying nobody is safe. Nowhere is safe. We can keep pressing. And they don't -- the commanders of ISIS don't particularly care if they send hundreds of their men to die to -- into what is effectively a suicide mission. But they see strategically, they can use this to strike terror.

Baghdad just lifted midnight curfew. OK, we'll show you that things are not as safe as you think they are. We'll continue to press and probe.

BERMAN: There are Americans in -- put that map up again. There are Americans in Erbil, obviously. There are Americans near that base near al-Baghdadi right there on the map right there. Americans, obviously, in Baghdad. Does ISIS want to create some direct confrontation with the U.S. troops?

GHOSH: Well, nothing would suit them better. If they could get close enough to engage in a single gun battle against American troops. Even if they lose it, that's for them is the great get. They want to show that they can come that close.

So far, that to the best of our knowledge, that has not happened. There has not been any direct on-the-ground engagement between ISIS. Because a lot of the fighters that they have drawn from around the world have come -- have been lured with the promise that they can go and fight against the infidel from their -- in their definition of this. And the Americans for them are the ultimate infidel. So if they can go and get a chance to fight and die in the fight against Americans, that would be for many of their fighters, the ideal for them.

BERMAN: And what's the ethnic division right now? You say that the Sunni population in Mosul, to an extent Talafar, these other areas that are under occupation by ISIS, they're not happy being occupied, but are they close to rising up to push ISIS out? Will there be another Sunni awakening like you witnessed firsthand in Iraq?

GHOSH: There will have to be eventually. Right now I don't think we're there yet. Because the Sunni population in Mosul is obviously unhappy living under ISIS control. But they're not terribly convinced that the government in Baghdad necessarily has their best interests in mind.

Remember, the Iraqi army run by that government in Baghdad simply walked away when ISIS arrived. So, if you're a resident of Mosul, you have to ask yourself, these guys are terrible, but if we rise up to fight against them, will Baghdad have our back? And Baghdad has not demonstrated that.

BERMAN: If there is a battle for Mosul, it will be a bloody one, urban combat.

Bobby Ghosh, great to have you here with us. Really appreciate it.

GHOSH: Anytime.

BERMAN: Chris?

CUOMO: John, good job on all that complicated stuff. We have to keep having the conversation.

And, of course, the implications matter not just there, but back here at home. The question is how do Americans really feel about President Obama? We have surprising new poll numbers. And we're going to break down his approval ratings, especially with handling of the economy, straight ahead.

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