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Countdown to DHS Shutdown; FBI: 'We Are Losing the Battle to Stop ISIS Online'; Missing Canadian Teens May Have Links to ISIS; British Intelligence Monitored 'Jihadi John'

Aired February 27, 2015 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ISIS appears to have money. Why shouldn't our homeland have the ability to protect itself?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not a partisan dispute, this is a party dispute.

REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: We make decisions, I'll let you know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Four teens have gone missing in Quebec. Investigators fear they're on their way to join ISIS.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The terrorist known as Jihadi John.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I suspect over time he will be identified and killed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are trying to reshape the map, changing the face of history and culture itself.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These couple of llamas on the run. They continue to elude the Animal Control authorities.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It plum tuckered me out trying to catch these things.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are they known to escape like today?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, they like to run.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo, Alisyn Camerota, and Michaela Pereira.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: All right, good morning. Welcome to NEW DAY. It is Friday, just before 6:00 in the morning. Six Canadian teens, some of them in college, are feared by their families to have fled to join ISIS. This is a reminder of just how fragile situations can be when it comes to national security. We're going to track what's going on with the efforts in Washington to stop the Department of Homeland Security from going unfunded, down to the minute. And we have the latest on the efforts among Republicans and Democrats to avoid that fate.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: exactly right. Eighteen hours and counting, so let's check in with Jim Acosta. He is at the White House for us to tell us if these spending bills are actually going to happen, if they're going to get a clean bill or what the latest is -- Jim.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Well, Alisyn, Washington is peering over the homeland security cliff this morning. As you have up on screen right now, 18 hours to go until the department runs out of money.

There are a couple of different plans up on Capitol Hill right now. The Senate majority leader, Mitch McConnell, has a plan that would fund the department through September.

But the more likely scenario at this point is over in the House. House Speaker John Boehner has a plan to fund the department for three weeks, a three-week continuing resolution or a short-term spending bill. And that is why over here at the White House they're sort of bystanders to all of this, and the White House press secretary, Josh Earnest, says the president really is just waiting for Republicans to get this done.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The Republicans made an aggressive case over the course of last year, about why the American people should entrust the United States Congress to Republican leadership. And here we are, seven or eight weeks into their tenure, and they're on the precipice of fall down on the job. Particularly when -- and that's notable when we're talking about something as important as funding the Department of Homeland Security.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Now you know who is not a fan of a three-week spending bill for the Department of Homeland Security? That would be the secretary of DHS, Jeh Johnson. He sent a letter up to lawmakers up on Capitol Hill. Put it up on screen for you. He says, "A short-term continuing resolution exacerbates the uncertainty for my workforce and puts us back in the same position on the brink of a shutdown just days from now."

Because as Jeh Johnson is saying in that letter there, guys, they would have to come back and do this all over again in March, which is just next week, to try to work out another spending bill that would keep this department open.

And of course, if it shuts down, as we've been saying all week long, thousands of workers would go on furlough and perhaps hundreds of thousands would have to work without pay. that includes border protection, TSA, people here at the White House who protect the president and the U.S. Secret Service. It would be a laughing matter here in Washington if this wasn't so serious.

Guys, back to you.

CUOMO: Absolutely. And that's the whole point, Jim. That's why we're all over it, because it's clear they're making it into one of these. I'm holding up a football, Jim. And that's the problem.

ACOSTA: Here we go again.

CUOMO: Absolutely.

ACOSTA: That's right.

CUOMO: Now, and what do we see here -- thank you very much for the reporting. The recent radicalization cases here and in Canada, what just happened, this comes as the FBI's top counterterrorism official says we are losing the battle to stop the propaganda machine. We have CNN justice correspondent Pamela Brown joining us from Washington with more.

What prompts those comments?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, I'll tell you, Chris. Law-enforcement officials I've been speaking with says that we're going to keep seeing ISIS-related cases here in the U.S. until we shut down the ISIS propaganda machine that is fueling this rapid recruitment, especially of America's youth. And that was really the main topic among top counterterrorism officials yesterday. As you point out, Michael Steinbach with the FBI and then intelligence chief James Clapper on the Hill yesterday.

And the bottom line is that it's clear we have a problem here with this propaganda, but the solution is not so clear. As one official said yesterday, you can't just shut down the Internet.

So during Clapper's testimony, he talked about the number of Americans going to fight with ISIS and coming back. He said that number has grown to 180 Americans who have tried to join the fight, and some have already returned to U.S. soil. And he painted a dire picture of the current global threat.

Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES CLAPPER, DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: When the final accounting is done, 2014 will have been the most lethal year for global terrorism in the 45 years such data has been compiled.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So even though we may be having trouble shutting down ISIS propaganda, Clapper did talk about ISIS overseas and how its running its caliphate. And he says that ISIS is running into a lot of problems running its own government, in part due to coalition airstrike -- airstrikes, rather, according to Clapper.

Back to you.

CUOMO: It's a complicated situation, Pamela. He also said he has active cases involving radicalization of ISIS in all 50 states right now.

So coming up in the next hour, Pamela Brown is going to have an outgoing interview with attorney general Eric Holder. Big issues to discuss here. We'll bring it to you here.

CAMEROTA: Well, Canadian authorities this morning investigating the whereabouts of six missing teenagers. Investigators believe they recently travelled to Turkey with the ultimate goal of joining ISIS. CNN's Paula Newton joins us now with more from Ottawa.

What do we know, Paula?

PAULA NEWTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alisyn, we do know that these families alerted authorities, the investigation was open, but the trail has gone cold somewhere in Turkey. Authorities have no way of knowing if these essentially teenagers, Alisyn, made it to Syria.

But obviously, one of the colleges that they went to, a community college that at least four of them attended, they have since suspended the rights of a Muslim preacher to teach on that campus. They say that they have evidence now that that kind of hate speech was going on on campus. They're quite worried and reaching out to their students and their community to say, "Look, we need to be vigilant, because we do know that ISIS is trying to recruit from our campuses."

And you know, Canadian here authorities echoing a lot of what we just heard from Pam, saying, "Look, the radicalization problem here in Canada continues to grow. This is still a threat, and this will continue to plague many families." They are saying to families, "Look, you need to alert authorities before it's too late."

Canadian authorities now working with their counterparts in Turkey to determine where these teenagers could have ended up.

Back to you.

CAMEROTA: Paula, thank you.

CUOMO: All right. One of the concerns there is there was a little lag time with the families between when they felt that the kids were missing and contacting the authorities. We'll get some more information for you on that.

We're also learning this morning more about who Jihadi John really is and whether British intelligence blew it in his case.

CNN senior international correspondent Nic Robertson is in London with more. Nic, hindsight always 20/20, but is there any proof that this was a real miss? NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's hard to

know the specifics of precisely how he did get out of the country. But the bottom line is, yes, absolutely since 2009 at the very least, he'd been on the radar. British officials -- British media is using a court document today which states that Emwazi, Mohammed Emwazi -- that's Jihadi John -- was associating with a group of men in West London with known terror connections to Somalia. Indeed one of those people he was -- he was believed and alleged to have been sort of teaming up with in West London went off to fight in Somalia, was killed in a U.S. drone strike in early 2012.

So the authorities here certainly believed that he had a track record that they needed to pay attention to. They'd obviously picked him up in Tanzania in 2009.

So how did he slip the net and get out of the country late 2012, early 2013? That's a really big question at the moment. But the ease of travel through Europe is certainly something that worries counterterrorism officials here. It's not like getting on a trans- Atlantic flight where, you know, your travel plans are flagged well in advance. It is easy, relatively easy to slip out of this country into other parts of Europe. Move, let's say, to Turkey and into Syria. So it's an open question, was it a miss? He was certainly under their spotlight before.

Back to you.

CAMEROTA: OK. Nic Robertson, thanks so much for all that.

So let's talk about all this with Mitch Silver. He's the executive managing director for K2 Intelligence, and he's the former director of intelligence for the NYPD. And Daveed Gartenstein-Ross, senior fellow for the Foundation of Defense of Democracies.

You both are experts in the field of recruitment. You are great guests to have on this morning.

Mitch, I want to start with you. Let me read to you what the head of counterterrorism for the FBI, the director, Michael Steinbach, has said about how we are losing this war to ISIS in terms of recruitment. Here's what he has said: "We have an effective counter narrative. But the sheer volume, we are losing the battle. Their amount of use of social media eclipses our effort."

How can ISIS, this band of 30,000, maybe, be beating the U.S. in terms of getting recruitment and people becoming radicalized here at home?

MITCH SILVER, EXECUTIVE MANAGING DIRECTOR, K2 INTELLIGENCE: Well a good metaphor is almost thinking about this as something like Microsoft versus YouTube. So one is a top-down effort by the U.S. government to try and monitor these social media websites. And the other is bottom-up.

So all of these members of ISIS are broadcasting their message on YouTube, on Twitter, and a variety of other different social media channels. That's beyond what the U.S. can monitor for the most part. CAMEROTA: But Mitch, I want to stay with you for one second, because

you had experience with this. You helped bust these guys in New Jersey who wanted to go to Somalia to join al Shabaab and you did it through online surveillance. How easy or difficult is it to track some wannabes online in their communication?

SILVER: It's very challenging. You need to have a cadre of people who have got unique language skills, and we did this through the NYPD's cyber-intelligence unit. So you need individuals who have got the language skills, and they need to be looking at the appropriate websites to be detecting those signals that individuals are radicalizing.

As we just saw in this Brooklyn case, where someone put a threat against the United States on an Uzbeki website, and that's what triggered the thread that unraveled the whole case.

CAMEROTA: Daveed, you have studied the process of how people become radicalized. Can you explain that to us.

DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: I think there's no set way or no one pattern for radicalization. I would describe it as having separate pathways.

Some pathways are much more based around people's interpretation of religion or ideology. Mitch actually did a very good study on that several years ago.

Some pathways are based upon political grievance. Some are based upon deprivation, even though poverty is not a root cause of terrorism. You do have a pathway that relates to that. Some are based on sense of adventure. There are different ways that people are drawn into violent extremism.

But one of the disadvantages we harbor under, I think, is we are kind of unwilling to step into the shoes of people who are radicalized, who are extremists. If you look at the violent extremism summit there is this debate about what kind of language the U.S. government should be using. I actually think the language about extremism is entirely appropriate. But at the same time, at an analytic level, you have to be willing to step into the shoes of a Salafi Jihadist and understand their particular interpretation of their faith, of the political context, in order to better understand how you can refute and undermine that message.

CAMEROTA: That makes sense. What do you mean, step into the shoes of? What does that look like?

GARTENSTEIN-ROSS: Well, what I mean is, if you look at Graeme Wood's article in the "Atlantic" it's caused so much discussion. He makes this very simple argument, which was revolutionary and shouldn't have been, which is that ISIS talks about religion a lot and we should take their ideas about religion seriously. Not for the purposes of determining what Islam really is but because this is something that matters to them. And so, for example, my view is that ISIS, even by their

interpretation of Islam, which is extreme, the Salafi Jihadist interpretation, is actually committing a large number of violations of Sharia, or Islamic law. We never will understand that if our -- if our discussion stops at, well, that which is good comes from Islam; that which is bad is a distortion. It's a very preschool-level view that we tend to have when we discuss it within government.

It's only when you start to actually understand where they're coming from, understand what their interpretation is and why it's that way, that you can find the kind of vulnerabilities in their religious narrative. Likewise for their political narrative, I think, there's a lot of vulnerabilities that have gone unexploited.

CAMEROTA: Mitch, these -- the arrest of these three Brooklyn guys who were trying to join ISIS gives us a real window into some of the recruitment process, because some of their exchange online with other ISIS members have been now revealed in this affidavit. So let me just read one.

This is from a propaganda website, and this is an ISIS so-called administrator, talking to one of these 24-year-old Brooklyn guys. Here's what the ISIS guy, who calls himself Bagdodi, says: "Even the Caliph himself is doing Jihad. How come you are not coming here? Or is it not Jihad for you? Or the oppression of Muslims by infidels is not enough for you? Or you want to wait until they enter your house?"

So Mitch, have you seen -- this is sort of bullying him, I guess I would call it, to come there. Is that a typical tactic?

SILVER: It is, and there are two elements to this. One is the fact that the only way you know about this is through cyber-threat intelligence. Is monitoring the Internet, monitoring these websites and being able to detect when people are making these type of posts.

The second element, and it speaks to what Daveed mentioned, is trying to get into the mindset of a Jihadi wannabe. And this person, Bagdodi, is playing on those issues. There's actually a concept in Islam where you have certain obligations, and part of the way he's bullying or guilting these three men in Brooklyn to come to Syria and Iraq is to saying, "Hey, this is your personal obligation. Your religious obligation is to come to Syria and Iraq and get into the fight." And whether it's three men in Brooklyn or six girls in Canada or three women in the U.K., it's this idea that these recruiters -- and they're doing it online as opposed to coming to Copenhagen or Paris or New York -- they're able to pull people from the west to Syria and Iraq, because they're playing on these obligations and because they're saying, "Hey, we're building a utopian society here, a caliphate. Come and join us. Be part of this."

CAMEROTA: Fascinating conversation. Mitch Silver, Daveed Gartenstein-Ross, thanks so much for letting us know how to step up the game against them. Thanks so much for being here.

Let's go to Chris. CUOMO: All right. News in the IRS scandal. There's really one main question: Did somebody hide Lois learner's emails? An agency investigator looking into the disappearance tells a House committee he found, quote, "potential criminal activity." Former IRS official Lerner is at the center of these allegations at the agency, targeted Tea Party and other conservative groups applying for tax-exempt status.

CAMEROTA: With U.S./Israeli relations at a new low, the White House is sending national security adviser, Susan Rice, and U.N. ambassador, Samantha Power, to APAC this weekend. The pro-Israel lobbying conference starts Sunday. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu will address the group on Monday. That's a day before delivering a controversial speech to Congress on the Iran nuclear threat.

Netanyahu was invited by House Speaker John Boehner, you'll remember, without notifying the White House. Two dozen Democrats plan to boycott that address.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Amid all this serious news, what is the world talking about? A critical debate dividing the world this morning: what color is this dress? Do you see black and blue? Do you see gold and white? This is a dress debate tearing the Internet apart over it. I'm not kidding. People looking at the same issue -- image see different colors. And the colors you see depends on how your brain interprets light.

So what color is it? The company behind the dress tweeted out this picture of the original blue and black dress. And look at it side by side. This dress practically broke the Internet with more than 21 million people reading the original post on BuzzFeed.

So are you blue and black? Are you white and gold? Tweet us or go to our Facebook page.

CUOMO: What do you see?

ROMANS: I saw white and gold, but the picture I first saw was a little different than that -- than that one there. I think it depends on...

CAMEROTA: I see white and gold. When you look at that right there?

CUOMO: I don't see white. It looks like light blue and gold.

ROMANS: I see blue and black.

CAMEROTA: You see the one on the left as blue and black?

ROMANS: I see on the left blue and black, too, now.

CUOMO: You see black not gold?

ROMANS: Yes, yes, I see -- we're all looking at the same picture.

CUOMO: What do you say? Let me get some men in the picture. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I see gold.

CUOMO: You see gold. What do you see, Phil?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I see gold and blue.

ROMANS: Gold and blue. He sees gold and blue. I saw gold and white when I first looked at it. Anyway, it's a total mind-blowing weird perception optical illusion, and the world keeps talking about it.

CAMEROTA: I know. Maybe we all have too much time on our hands. That's one option or it is so mind-blowing.

ROMANS: I saw a headline in the "USA Today" said the FCC has voted to regulate the Internet and we celebrate by talking about this dress all night long.

CUOMO: All right. Well, here's another question for you. Who are the real contenders and who are just pretenders among the Republicans? Those are the stakes at the big CPAC convention. Who's convincing the real conservatives? We'll tell you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can put it on the floor. You can kill it. You can let them vote on it. Have you had this discussion?

REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: When we make decisions, I'll let you know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: (MAKING KISSING NOISES) (SINGING) A kiss is just a kiss...

(SPEAKING) That was speaker of the House, John Boehner, literally kissing off a question about funding the Department of Homeland Security. But with just hours left, where's our clock? There it is. Hours left, big issues going on here. Is that the attitude he should be taking? Should any of this be going on?

Let's discuss with John Avlon, CNN political analyst, editor in chief of "The Daily Beast," and Margaret Hoover, CNN political commentator, Republican consultant and Sirius XM host.

JOHN AVLON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.

CUOMO: What's going to happen in 17 hours?

MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: The bet is John Boehner is able to pull it off in the -- you can't even say 11th hour. We're in the 11th hour.

CAMEROTA: He reigns in the House. He reigns in his caucus, the various caucuses, and they vote for a clean bill? HOOVER: I think he's going to have to have some Democrats, and I

think it's going to be a clean bill.

AVLON: Yes, look. I mean, besides sort of the bizarre kiss-off, you know, move like, "Hey, I got this under control."

CUOMO: What's your take on that, by the way? What does that mean?

AVLON: That's just kind of loose classic Boehner. I mean, you know, he wants...

CUOMO: "It's not a real question. I don't want to talk about it."

AVLON: "Don't worry, sweetie, I got this, right?"

HOOVER: I have no intention of sharing my strategy with you.

CUOMO: And the kiss -- the kiss means that, why? Because I'm thinking of using it at some point.

AVLON: I think it's a Cincinnati thing. You wouldn't understand. You know...

HOOVER: I think it's improvisational, it can mean anything. I think, for you, it would mean, "Hey, I really like you, but I'm not going to share with you." I think in his case it was just sort of a "I'm not going to..."

AVLON: That's -- part of this is because they've become so comfortable with this Groundhog Day scenario, governing by crisis, that even at the 11th hour, they know that's the only way they're going to get anything done. So there's a degree of almost bizarre calm in the corridors of power. But it actually is an indication of their powerlessness.

Look, we've seen this movie before. Here's probably what's going to happen. Boehner is not going to try to do the Hastert rule yet. That is the only way we will get out of this, folks, is if he ditches the Hastert rule, which Denny Hastert says doesn't even exist. We will get a continuing resolution. We'll punt. We'll punt and do this again in three weeks, and that will be the time where, allegedly, we're all going to have a great meeting of the mind. That's not going to end up just doing the Hastert rule together.

And when McConnell tried to do the right thing, it passed 98-2. If you try to do the right thing, it's not particularly controversial.

HOOVER: But you know what? That's not entirely true. The House of Representatives and the Senate are two totally different institutions. Unfortunately for John Boehner, he is a weak speaker. I mean, he was really challenged just six weeks ago in terms of his speakership. A lot of people want to take him out.

He needs to be able to maintain some degree of leverage over his caucus, so he can't be seen as folding to Mitch McConnell's deal in the Senate. He needs to take it down to the bottom line for his caucus.

CUOMO: He picked the wrong football this time. These threats all over the place.

HOOVER: You are correct. You are correct, but they are divorced from reality when it comes to that. It's all about the power within the caucus and for him to maintain leverage on his caucus. And I know that is not governing, and I know that it's not responsible.

AVLON: I appreciate you saying that.

HOOVER: You and I all know that, but we also have to appreciate that there's just a different set of rules when it comes to governing the House of Representatives than the Senate.

AVLON: They are holding, not only our country hostage but putting our national security hostage.

CAMEROTA: Well, you know, there's a debate about that. Is it jobs that people are going to be going on hiatus from for a while, getting back pay? Or the essential people in terms of national security will still be reporting to work.

AVLON: And that's a really important reality check. It's not like all of a sudden no one's going to be on point. But at a time when threats are increasing, at a time when James Comey is saying there are 50-state ISIS threats.

At a time when --DHS has been venerated by Republicans, to all of a sudden play politics with it, to show that you hate immigration reform more than you love, you know, maintaining the posture of national security at full capacity, that is scary politic playing.

CAMEROTA: Let's move on to CPAC. And we know that you were there. Let's talk about the headline.

CUOMO: You're doing your Sirius XM show from there. Weren't you?

HOOVER: Chris Cuomo, you're the best. Yes, I was. Thanks for asking.

CAMEROTA: What were the big headlines that you saw?

HOOVER: Look, I think Chris Christie now acknowledges that he's not a front-runner. That was a big get.

CAMEROTA: Let's play that for a moment. Because he also talked about his impressions of Jeb Bush getting the nomination, if that were to happen. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: Well, listen, if what happens is if the elites in Washington who make back-room deals decide who the president is going to be, then he's definitely the front-runner. If the people of the United States decide to pick the next president

of the United States, and they want someone who looks them in the eye, connects with them and is one of them? I'll do OK if I run.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOOVER: See how prickly and thin-skinned he is about that? I think he actually just can't stand and doesn't like that he's not the front- runner any more. But he's trying to make it his advantage. He's trying to be the every guy now, instead of the establishment choice. It's a real slip for him, but it's actually a good tactical maneuver.

AVLON: It is. But it's also always been part of his strategy, right? I mean, he's got a lot of the kind of arena rock kind of Bruce Springsteen fan in him. And that's one of the things that brought him to prominence. He's never been a back corridor kind of guy where the dynasties inherently are. It's a smart pivot.

CAMEROTA: Let's talk about the IRS for a moment. Because you may recall there was a scandal about the IRS and that they were targeting Tea Party groups for extra scrutiny.

Now it seems to have actually gone further. Because Lois Lerner, the Congress had wanted Lois Lerner's emails. And whoops, those were lost.

CUOMO: The dog ate my hard drive.

CAMEROTA: In a crazy co-ink-ka-dink. It turns out now that investigators, inspector general say, "No, we actually think that you have hidden them somewhere, and we believe that there could actually be some sort of criminal activity."

AVLON: That is a whole different ball game. I mean, obviously, these have been actively hidden. Problem for Obama?

AVLON: It's a problem for the administration, and again, it depends on whether there's any evidence of collusion. That is a huge if.

HOOVER: But he was just -- but also the president came out and defended them immediately, and so all of this has become probably unnecessarily partisan.

Can I tell you a funny story?

CUOMO: Please.

HOOVER: I went by the IRS on the way to CPAC yesterday. Somebody had put the flag upside-down. The flag flying in front of the IRS was actually upside-down.

AVLON: That's not on message.

HOOVER: It's on my Instagram if you want to see it.

CUOMO: That's a sign of distress, by the way. When the flag is upside-down, it's a sign of distress.

CAMEROTA: That is a cry for help if we've ever heard one.

AVLON: I will say that Citizens United helped create an environment where a massive influx of political entrepreneurs, trying to get in the game, created sort of this influx of attempts to register these organizations.

CUOMO: If it's criminal activity you've got a problem. A bigger problem even if you don't is scrutiny of those groups, conservative, liberal, whatever, was very valuable; and it's going to be scaled back now and we all lose. We all lose.

AVLON: Exactly right. That's exactly right.

CAMEROTA: John, Margaret, thank you, happy weekend.

I'll tell you, important llama alert for you now. Two llamas on the loose in Arizona. How do you catch a llama when they are not in the mood to be caught? That is the question of the llama drama.

CUOMO: Spanish joke, does that mean by name, llama, that they're constantly running around saying "my name is" "my name is" "my name is"?

CAMEROTA: Yes.

CUOMO: Spanish joke.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)