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French Authorities: Germanwings Crash Deliberate. Aired 8:30-9a ET
Aired March 26, 2015 - 08:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[08:30:00] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: It's not designed to keep someone from staying in the cockpit. So, you know, this was a little bit of being frustrated by your own efforts. But there's a lot of information here. It's a good time for a reset here on NEW DAY. We certainly have breaking news.
It is no longer about speculation here. We just heard from a French prosecutor that, yes, the captain of the plane was locked out of the cockpit on Flight 9525. It was done by the co-pilot. It was intentional. He intentionally locked the door. I'm saying he because it was a he, 28-year-old Andreas Lubitz. A German national, working for a German company, obviously. What was his religion? Not known. The prosecutor said may not be PC, but, yes, we're looking into it. We don't know yet. The prosecutor said from France, this is where we're getting this official information from the investigation, said, they just learned late last night about this. And a couple of other headlines, and then we'll get to the ground on it.
So, there was not just an intentional locking out by the co-pilot. There was a deliberate act to begin the descent of the plane at an increased rate. That is coming from the investigators. So they say this was intentional. Is it terrorism? Is it a suicide mission? The prosecutors said not ready to go there yet at this point in the investigation.
We have somebody on the ground in France who was monitoring the press conference. Erin McLaughlin, what are the other takeaways?
ERIN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Chris. That's right, the prosecutor in Marseilles saying it was a, quote, "deliberate attempt" to destroy the aircraft by the co-pilot. He said that there were two main reasons for the conclusion that investigators had drawn. ,The first being that 28 Andreas, the co-pilot, refused entry to the captain, locking the captain out of the cockpit. He also said that the co-pilot maneuvered the lever for the loss of altitude and knowing, he said, that there was no other airport that could retrieve -- or that could receive, rather, an Airbus A-320.
And he also said, rather tragically, that he had to give this information today to the families. Some 400 people, according to local media reports, families and friends arrived in Marseilles. They were charters -- brought in on chartered flights, (INAUDIBLE) flights, from Barcelona, as well as from Dusseldorf. They had an hour and a half briefing or an hour and a quarter briefing, rather, with the prosecutor where he delivered this news and answered their questions. I can only imagine how horrifying and shocking this must have been for them.
Chris.
CAMEROTA: Thank you, Erin. Thanks so much for that.
We want to go now to CNN's Karl Penhaul. He was in that astonishing press conference for the prosecutor, announced all the new findings. He was in Marseilles for us.
Karl, tell us what the feeling was inside that press conference.
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Good morning.
An absolute bombshell. A very frank, a very open and a very damning press conference that has left a lot of the journalists packed into this small press room open mouthed. They are absolutely staggered by what they have heard from France's prosecutor. And that is namely that the prosecutor believes, based on listening to the cockpit voice recorder, that it was the co-pilot who took action and deliberately crashed the plane into the mountainside.
He said -- the prosecutor described the sequence of events and said for the first 20 minutes of the flight, the pilot and co-pilot sat together in the cockpit. Their conversation was cordial and professional. He said, though, that the mood changed a little when the pilot started to brief the co-pilot on arrival. Briefings to get into Dusseldorf Airport (ph). At that point, the prosecutor said, that the co-pilot fell a little silent and his responses were very brief to the pilot.
Shortly after that, the pilot left the cockpit. We don't know for what reason. And at that point, as he leaves the cockpit, the door behind him, the armored door of the cockpit, locks automatically. And following that, the co-pilot took control, took manual control of the aircraft, and pushed the aircraft into a steep descent, crashing it eight minutes later into the side of the mountainside.
As for the pilot's response, well, he tried to return to the cockpit. And on the cockpit voice recorder, the prosecutor said you can hear him trying to gain access once again via the video intercom system. When there's no response from the, quote, co-pilot, the pilot begins to knock on the door and he begins to hammer on the door. An instant before the moment of the crash, the pilot tries to kick in the cockpit door, but to no avail.
At that point, as well, the prosecutor says, you can hear passengers beginning to scream. It was only in the last moments that they knew they were going to crash.
[08:35:02] Back to you.
CAMEROTA: Oh, Karl, it is just so bone chilling to hear these details that were just revealed at this press conference.
We want to bring in again our CNN aviation analysts, David Soucie and correspondent Richard Quest. Richard.
RICHARD QUEST, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We don't -- just listening to Karl Penhaul there and listening to the description and -- of what the prosecutor said, we don't know if the captain, the pilot outside, tried to use the override procedure. It wouldn't have worked if the door was locked. But we --
CUOMO: For five minutes?
QUEST: For five minutes. But we don't know whether --
CAMEROTA: The prosecutor didn't talk about that.
QUEST: He didn't.
CAMEROTA: That's right, he didn't.
QUEST: He didn't. He just said, and as Karl reported, that the pilot locked -- the co-pilot or the first officer locked the door. He -- that could just mean he closed the door, he pushed it. But we don't know whether a procedure was started.
CAMEROTA: But the prosecutor said so many fascinating things. One of them is that he does not believe that the co-pilot, who was inside, was somehow incapacitated. And the reason that he doesn't believe that --
CUOMO: Breathing.
CAMEROTA: Is because they can hear audible breathing, which he says doesn't change. It wasn't the breathing, as he said, as someone having a heart attack and panicking or a stroke.
CUOMO: And because he did deliberate things. He locked the doors --
DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: Right.
CUOMO: And he started to control the plane.
SOUCIE: Now, let's examine that a little bit because locking the door, there's another possibility, which Richard just brought up, which is that maybe he didn't.
QUEST: Yes.
SOUCIE: Maybe the pilot didn't use the override procedure properly and thereby couldn't get through the door. The co-pilot, then, would react in a certain way. Because the procedure wasn't followed, the normal -- the process would be to lock the door. So that's the procedure. So this is the possibility.
CUOMO: Why isn't he saying anything?
SOUCIE: That's the question, why he's not saying anything. So that's -- but I'm just saying, those two details -- CAMEROTA: There are other possibilities.
SOUCIE: The other possibility about the descent is that even though you're -- he's assuming that you had -- this descent was dialed in. I'm not certain about that because that descent is not exact. There are changes in that descent. If he had dialed it in, it would be exactly that descent.
CUOMO: What's the other possibility?
SOUCIE: The other possibility is, in the Airbus, if you command the descent, so you put the control forward to the point where you start that descent, and then you simply let go, the aircraft will continue that descent. It doesn't come back up and go normally. It continues on that descent until a counteracting control is put in.
CAMEROTA: Meaning somebody could have leaned on it? Something could have happened, pushed or leaned on it?
SOUCIE: Pushed it. Leaned on it. Forward. (INAUDIBLE).
QUEST: I think what we have here is the prosecutor who has -- I'm choosing my words carefully. The prosecutor has, in the last 48 hours, had to learn an enormous amount about the minuti (ph) of flying mechanisms and auto pilots and, no disrespect. So he's not being as precise as we will finally see in the report, in terms of, you know, turning buttons for how the descent was started.
CUOMO: He used a fancy phrase to describe what he doesn't know. He said aprioria (ph) at one part, which is Latin from -- from what is before. I means that, I'm telling you what I know from what happened, not from what he's advanced in his investigations.
SOUCIE: Well --
CAMEROTA: Sure.
SOUCIE: But he's where it gets dangerous. He's drawing conclusions based on that.
QUEST: Yes.
SOUCIE: Which is dangerous.
CAMEROTA: Well, I mean, the upshot -- the upshot of what he's drawing is that it was deliberate.
CUOMO: Yes.
CAMEROTA: That is that he's concluded, that it was deliberate.
QUESTION: Yes. Again and again and again -- again and again he uses the word deliberate.
CUOMO: How could he be wrong? Like, let's look at that. SOUCIE: OK. OK. How he could be wrong is, and, again, we're
speculating here, of course, obviously, but we need to do this to fully (ph) understand.
CUOMO: Well, he put it out there, so we should test it.
SOUCIE: OK.
CAMEROTA: And with your expertise, I'm willing to speculate.
SOUCIE: So the only other option I'm -- what I'm suggesting is that, let's -- let's take this assumption, and I'm not saying that this is what I think happened. But if the pilot was incapacitated and the co- pilot -- the co-pilot tries to get in, the door was either pushed into the lock position because he wasn't following the proper procedure by the co-pilot, or he just didn't know what the procedure was to try to get in on his own.
CAMEROTA: But it was the pilot who was outside.
SOUCIE: But it's -- so let's say that this co-pilot was incapacitated. The pilot leaves, tries to get back in, can't get back in. Co-pilot is sitting up in the front. He passes out or he leans forward. We've had two cases -- or one case for sure of an epileptic seizure that wasn't recognized at that in which the pilot came out and said, hey, they're coming to get us and was freaking out about things and that was found to be an epileptic seizure. If something like that happened, or narcolepsy, he would have passed out. The control is right here, Leaning forward would have input the descent. Now that you've initiated that descent, if your hand falls off of it, it will continue that descent, which is -- he -- indicative of what's happening. Not necessarily the auto-pilot. The auto-pilot can be overridden.
CUOMO: Well, wait, from what you see on this -- the graph, the information that we got about the rate of descent --
SOUCIE: Right.
CUOMO: Does it look like it could have been a single move by this co- pilot?
QUEST: Remember, it's a -- remember, the move, once you've made it, it holds. It's not like a car wheel where when you turn it you -- and as you turn it back the wheels (INAUDIBLE).
CUOMO: Right, but haven't you been saying that it seems like there were variations in the (INAUDIBLE)?
QUEST: The variations --
SOUCIE: Right.
QUEST: The variations is not as -- the variations are not explained.
CUOMO: And who locked the door?
CAMEROTA: It locks automatically.
SOUCIE: Well, because if the -- what I'm saying is that if the -- the pilot who exited wasn't familiar -- we talked to two pilots today who are not familiar with this process.
CUOMO: Yes. Right.
SOUCIE: Who are currently flying right now. So, how do I get back into the cockpit?
[08:40:03] QUEST: When we talk about --
SOUCIE: Well, I start pushing buttons and it's --
CUOMO: But that's only if this -- if the co-pilot locked the door.
SOUCIE: No. Here's the thing. If the co-pilot is incapacitated, here's the procedure. You push the pound button, which, again, we're not divulging secrets here. You push the pound button up there. There's an alarm that goes off in the cockpit for 30 seconds. During that 30 seconds, if there's no response, the procedure is to call the cockpit. But during that 30 -- after that 30 seconds, if there's no response, the door automatically opens.
CUOMO: Right.
QUEST: There is a -- we're being imprecise in the phrase "locking the door."
SOUCIE: Exactly.
QUEST: What we mean here, and there's two -- there's two distinct points. First of all, there's the cockpit door being closed. In that situation, it's in -- for want of a better phrase, it's normal. You can't get in unless it's opened.
SOUCIE: There's no door handle from the cabin.
QUEST: Right. So in -- so the door's closed, that the normal phase. The pilot inside can lock it by flicking the switch. Once you flick the switch, you cannot use the override procedures on the outside.
CUOMO: I get it. So you're saying --
SOUCIE: For five minutes.
CUOMO: You're saying what Alisyn was suggesting early this morning, which is, if that door closed --
QUEST: Closed.
CUOMO: It's locked and you need to use a keypad to get in.
QUEST: It's closed.
CAMEROTA: You can't get in. SOUCIE: Exactly.
CUOMO: If the person inside doesn't let you in.
CAMEROTA: Yes.
QUEST: Correct.
CUOMO: So if he were incapacitated, then he wouldn't be able to let you in, you'd have to know the code and procedure.
SOUCIE: Exactly my point. That's my correct.
QUEST: Correct. Correct.
CUOMO: And if you don't, then you can't get in.
SOUCIE: You got it.
CUOMO: But that assumes that this was some type of medical situation that was going on in the cockpit.
QUEST: Correct. Now, and --
SOUCIE: And the only reason we bring that up is because he's so definite about the fact that it was intentional.
QUEST: Right. Right.
CUOMO: Because of (INAUDIBLE). The rate of breathing --
SOUCIE: There are -- there are chances that it was not intentional. Let me just point that out to you.
QUEST: Now, if --
CUOMO: The guy got really sick really fast, then, though.
SOUCIE: Absolutely.
QUEST: If he -- if he -- the captain leaves, the door closes. If the first officer inside pushes the button to lock it, it's no longer closed, it's locked. An no one -- and for five minutes, the procedure -- the override procedure cannot be used.
CAMEROTA: The reason that we are, I think, engaging in all of this and trying to figure out some sort of explanation is because when you just look at the profile of the co-pilot, none of it makes sense.
QUEST: None of it.
CAMEROTA: None of it.
SOUCIE: No. No.
CAMEROTA: He is German born. He is -- works for a German company. He lives in Germany. His name is Andreas Lubitz. He's 28 years old. He was fully qualified to pilot that plane, we've learned. He had 100 hours of flight on that very type of aircraft.
QUEST: Very little. Very little.
CAMEROTA: That's very little, but he was on that Airbus, 600 all total.
QUEST: And 630 hours is -- is a -- is very inexperienced.
CAMEROTA: But still qualified to be a co-pilot on this.
QUEST: Oh, yes. Yes.
SOUCIE: Trying to rationalize the suicidal behavior is futile. You -- Columbine shooting, all of these other tragedies that have happened, were from normal people, normal kids who seem to have a normal life, and for the most part, there's a few that -- so it's hard for me to say, well, he was normal up until this point. Well, all of these psychotic breaks are normal up to a point.
CAMEROTA: Sure. Yes. We just don't know enough about him.
SOUCIE: Right.
CAMEROTA: But there's nothing at first blush that would explain what happened at 38,000 feet.
SOUCIE: That's right.
CUOMO: But I think that, look, to give that prosecutor his due, we don't know if he's telling us everything he knows.
SOUCIE: Good point.
CUOMO: He is saying he believes in transparency. He is saying, I haven't learned this until just a few hours ago. But he's got a whole team of investigators in on this. And to Richard's point, yes, he hasn't had a lot of time to learn the minutia of flight. But he's had a lifetime to learn how to be an investigator.
SOUCIE: Right.
CUOMO: So I'm sure they're digging very deeply and mightily into this guy's life. And this 28-year-old co-pilot, and the suggestion of it having been a medical emergency --
SOUCIE: It's moving away.
CUOMO: Is not as easy a road followed for this investigator at this point as it was intentional.
SOUCIE: Right. At this point of the
(CROSS TALK)
QUEST: And there --
SOUCIE: Yes, that there are other possibilities, so don't rule them out.
CUOMO: Sure. And you're right to do it.
QUEST: What the prosecutor -- what the prosecutor says is that co -- again, forgive me, reading straight off the Blackberry but this is where so much information is coming. Co-pilot took advantage of the captain leaving the cockpit. Now, that is the clarity of the situation that leads us to assume this was a deliberate attempt, not a medical emergency, to crash the aircraft. We'll have to wait, obviously, in the hours ahead for further details, but the prosecutor -- and indeed (ph) his answer on suicide. I don't call it suicide when you have 150 people sitting behind you. The prosecutor has clearly nailed his colors to the mast.
CUOMO: We want to go now to CNN's Karl Penhaul. He was in this remarkable press conference where all of this was revealed and he has more information for us now.
Karl, what have you learned?
PENHAUL: Yes, absolutely. Just bouncing off a couple of points that Richard was making. And possibly if Richard says the prosecutor is getting up to speed with a lot of technicalities of the plane. He, by his own admission, also has not listened to the cockpit voice recorder, but he has seen a full transcription and translations from the German, he said. But in the words of the prosecutor, I don't know if this clarifies the situation for the experts anymore, but in the words of the prosecutor, at one point in that press conference he said that the co-pilot took manual control of the levers. At another point in that press conference he said that the co-pilot dialed in a descent going from 38,000 feet to approximately 6,000 feet.
[08:45:10] And then, in a question and answer session of the press conference, the prosecutor said or described the door as locking automatically. He didn't specify whether the co-pilot had pushed a button or whether some other mechanism was used. But he did use the expression that the door, the cockpit door, locked automatically.
He didn't specify whether the co-pilot had pushed a button or whether some other mechanism was used. But he did use the expression, that the door, the cockpit door had locked automatically.
Now, in terms of the investigations against the co-pilot, the prosecutor said that the French or the investigations against the co- pilot, in questioning his family, the prosecutor did say that the co- pilot's family had arrived in Marseilles this morning. But to his knowledge, the family had now been, had now departed. He said that undoubtedly the German authorities would question the families. He said French authorities could also request permission to investigate and to question the co-pilot family. Back to you guys.
CAMEROTA: Carl, thank you. That was very helpful. Yes, Richard? QUEST: Yes, I mean, I hear that he said -- thank you Karl, that was
very useful. He said - I heard him say the door was locked automatically. What I didn't understand is what he meant by that because the door doesn't - the door closes automatically --
CUOMO: But, here's the point. Here's the point why --
RICHARD: Yes
CUOMO: You know because people are watching us and their saying, well, locked is locked. Not when it comes to airplanes. And Michaela we know you've been scrambling to add this pieces to the puzzle. When we hear, well, the door was locked, that doesn't mean something as simple as it sounds, right?
CAMEROTA: I mean the door is also shut, and you just can't get so it's might, for intensive purposes, as well be locked. Let's go to Michaela. She has more.
MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Boy this is going to be something very interested in revealing for us. We brought David SOUCIE: over to the magic wall. We also have with us Justin GREEN:. He is a commercial a pilot himself and also an aviation attorney. Gentlemen, we figured we'd just sort of talk about this actual (INAUDIBLE). Because it's very confounding to any of us who are outside in the passenger cabin. First of all is this, what were about to look at, is this standard on all airplanes? The idea of a key pad and a lock inside the --
SOUCIE: After 9/11, this was attacked from the manufacturer's point of view, not just by the airlines. So the manufacturers have control over the entire fleet.
PEREIRA: Gotcha.
SOUCIE: Whether it's worldwide or not.
PEREIRA: Doesn't matter if you're in Russia, if your in Brazil
SOUCIE: Right so when this was --
PEREIRA: or if your in Italy.
SOUCIE: mandated, it was mandated that the manufacturer do something about it not just an individual airline.
PEREIRA: Okay. So outside, this is outside the cockpit, you would have the key pad. We've been talking about this quite a great deal. And then inside and, again, David, or either one of you this is between the co -- the pilot and co-pilot, right in that console?
SOUCIE: In that console. Right.
PEREIRA: So here is what would happen. Let's say the cockpit door is in a normal position. If the pilot then decides to lock it, outside, that overrides the ability to put in that secret code, correct Justin?
JUSTIN GREEN, AVIATION ATTORNEY: That's right.
PEREIRA: For five minutes.
GREEN: Basically, What it is it's actually like a padlock that you put on your door.
PEREIRA: Okay.
GREEN: You can open your door with a key, but if someone inside actually secures the door from inside, the person can't get in.
PEREIRA: Quick point of order, it's locked from the outside, and the code won't work. Can the person inside say no, it's okay to come in now.
SOUCIE: (INAUDIBLE)
PEREIRA: And unlock it from the inside
GREEN: The pilot inside can always unlock it and let the other pilot back
PEREIRA: And push the lock. Okay. Also, another point, this is not an easy thing to bump you have to lift it and move it. Correct?
SOUCIE: No. No. You can see on the sides of it, these little bars, those are up around the top of that toggle. So you could (CLAP) go like this right on top of it and it wouldn't move that switch.
PEEREIRA: Okay
SOUCIE: So, it has to be - your finger has to be between those two bars and your pulling it down, and it's a momentary switch. It doesn't stay in the lock -
PEREIRA: It's specific. It's what --
SOUCIE: It comes --
PEREIRA: My point is.
SOUCIE: Yes.
PEREIRA: Your not , your not - you can't just sort of bump it with --
SOUCIE: Yes.
PEREIRA: You elbow,
SOUCIE: Right, It's not going to be (INAUDIBLE)
PEREIRA: If your cut like me. It's not going to be externally.
GREEN: Unless we accidentally (INAUDIBLE)
PEREIRA: Okay, so then next, so the five minutes goes by. Then outside, you have 30 seconds to put in your secret code. Question about that. The secret code, who has that code?
GREEN: The pilot and the air crew would have it.
SOUCIE: And the lead --
PEREIRA: So the pilot and the co-pilot?
GREEN: AND PERIERA: Correct.
SOUCIE: The lead flight attendant
PEREIRA: Only?
SOUCIE: In some airlines. Other airlines, the procedure - now we said the equipment is the same. Nationally --
PEREIRA: But the procedures --
SOUCIE: Procedures vary.
PEREIRA: But often times, at least one flight attendant would have that number?
SOUCIE: Absolutely.
PEREIRA: Okay, so 30 seconds, do they change this regularly? The code? Is it per flight?
SOUCIE: We're not going to talk about that.
PEREIRA: Okay, well that's
SOUCIE: No.
PEREIRA: Fair enough. And I -
SOUCIE: Yes.
PEREIRA: Appreciate that's a point we wanted to make -
SOUCIE: Is that we don't want to reveal everything.
SOUCIE: Yes.
PEREIRA: Okay so now when this code is put in, if it's done correctly, there's a buzzer inside the cockpit, correct?
GREEN: There is.
PEREIRA: And it, it buzzes, Justin.
GREEN: That's right.
PEREIRA: Is there a light that goes off, as well?
GREEN: No, the buzzer will tell the pilot that someone wants to come in and the pilot, on some of the newer airplanes, will actually be able to see a screen, who's outside the cockpit.
PEREIRA: So In a way --
SOUCIE: Not in this one
GREEN: Not in this one. No.
PEREIRA: In a way, it's like an identifier. It's almost like a doorbell if you will.
[08:50:00]
GREEN: That's right.
PEREIRA: To say hey, I'm outside, --
GREEN: But its a --
PEREIRA: I want in.
GREEN: Really loud and long doorbell.
GREEN: (LAUGH) It's -
PEREIRA: To that point.
GREEN: Thirty seconds, it's going (BUZZING NOISE). You know, the most annoying sound in the world. That's --
PEREIRA: That's how it sounds?
GREEN: That triumphs it. Yes.
GREEN: Oh yes.
SOUCIE: Absolutely.
GREEN: And honestly, the system isn't that alien. It's just like coming into an apartment building. If you have a key, you can get in. If you have the code, you can get in here, but the person that can always lock you out.
PEREIRA: Well, that's my point then. So, light goes off. Buzzer goes off. It's loud. You can't ignore it. Apparently you can. The pilot has a choice, lock or unlock. Say come on in or lock, which speaks to intent, again.
GREEN: That's right.
PEREIRA: Lock again.
SOUCIE: Mhmm.
PEREIRA: Correct?
SOUCIE: Yes. PEREIRA: And then does that repeat the process of five minutes, put
your code in?
SOUCIE: Yes. So if add that together, you've got the five-minute wait. At the end of that you can put the code back in, that's 30 seconds.
PEREIRA: But there's not a clock -
SOUCIE: So, it restarts at 5:30.
PEREIRA: It does restart, but there's not like a time? There's not a stopwatch that's going down in front. You don't -- you have to sort of keep track of the five minutes in your head.
GREEN: The light will go off after the five minutes.
SOUCIE: But that's the only indication -
GREEN: That's the only indication.
SOUCIE: That red light will go off.
PEREIRA: Okay, so does any of this data, now that we know how this all works, given the information that you've had, does it change, sort of? Justin, we know what you're feeling. Justin does this change any of how you're feeling about what happened here?
GREEN: The system is designed to protect everything. If the pilot inside the cockpit has a medical emergency, five minutes later, the outside pilot can get in.
PEREIRA: Right.
GREEN: The only thing it doesn't protect against is when the a criminal is in the cockpit.
PEREIRA: Right.
GREEN: When the person in the cockpit is the person who is trying to take down the airplane, that person can always switch that to lock. Five minutes later, when this light, red light, goes off and they can use the key pad again, hits block again and the person --
PEREIRA: But again,
GREEN: Will not get in.
PEREIRA: It's not looking as though it was a medical emergency, because there was a point of not unlocking again. So then, once the alarm code has gone off or the code is put in, the alarm goes off inside the cockpit, the pilot says, yes, come on in. That door opens for five seconds. That's actually really quickly. It's opened and unlocked for five seconds giving whoever's outside, the flight attendant or the pilot, the opportunity to go in. Why five seconds?
SOUCIE: Well, if you back up to why this is happening, it's because they've already attempted procedurally three different times to get a hold of someone in the cockpit and it was unresponsive. So in this case, they didn't have that much time. They would have taken 15 or 20 minutes to check three times. But in this case, they had ten minutes, 9.4 minutes or something like that. So in that period of time, you can imagine the dramatics of trying to get into the cockpit. There's another possibility we need to address in this and that is that if the co pilot -- pilot trying to get back in did not follow procedure, then the procedure for the remaining pilot in the cockpit would be to push lock.
PEREIRA: To push lock.
SOUCIE: Because they didn't follow the decision.
PEREIRA: We're making an assumption that the one inside wasn't following
SOUCIE: It's -
PEREIRA: Procedure. But let's pretend -
SOUCIE: Right. Right.
PEREIRA: The pilot outside.
SOUCIE: Well,
PEREIRA: Wasn't following procedure.
SOUCIE: No though actually, the one into the cockpit would have been following procedure. If the one outside forgot how to get in or didn't screw it up wrong. Then the pilot would've said, oh, this may be something else because he doesn't have benefit -
PEREIRA: So I'm going to keep it locked.
SOUCIE: Of that camera now.
PEREIRA: Right.
SOUCIE: So he's going to lock it because that's what you do
GREEN: But, that doesn't explain -
SOUCIE: But then,
GREEN: The time difference
PEREIRA: Right
GREEN: And the descent. So I think -
SOUCIE: And the non-responsiveness.
GREEN: That's right.
SOUCIE: Afterwards all of that.
PEREIRA: But isn't there also a spy hole in the door? Could you not just get up and look through the -
SOUCIE: No, you're alone -
PEREIRA: Spy hole.
SOUCIE: In the cockpit.
GREEN: Right.
SOUCIE: And that's why your
GREEN: (INAUDIBLE)
SOUCIE: Do not alone in the cockpit.
PEREIRA: One quick point and we'll wrap this up. Is any of this data transmitted to on the aircraft back to air traffic control on the data recorder at all?
GREEN: Probably not in this airplane. And I think what's important to note before you close is that this scenario, a pilot actually taking down an airplane is something that people have considered. And procedures have been put in place. And so the big question, I think, Richard said it before, is why weren't there, why wasn't the flight attendant in the cockpit with the pilot?
PEREIRA: It was apparently not a procedure that they followed there. Justin, thanks so much.
GREEN: Thank you.
PEREIRA: Good to have you David.
SOUCIE: Thanks Michaela.
PEREIRA: We're going to keep you both around. Stay with us. Well headed back over to you Alysin and Chris.
CAMEROTA: Okay Michaela. There's so much to discuss even beyond the mechanics of what went on in the cockpit. The prosecutor had a fascinating press conference earlier and a lot came out of it. The prosecutor, Chris, said something interesting, which to his ears, there's nothing to suggest this was a terror attack. And the reason that he's concluded that is because Andreas Lubitz, who was the co- pilot who was inside the cockpit while this was happening, 28-years- old, was not on any terror list. There was nothing about his background that they know thus far, that would suggest terror. However, --
CUOMO: He said it was very important to act on the information he had. That said, he is making some conclusions at this point. He didn't say it was terrorist. He didn't say it was suicide. But that was because he believes it isn't a suicide when you kill other people. That was like a point of his personal preference --
CAMEROTA: That's the message,
CUOMO: -- for words.
CAMEROTA: But the terror thing is --
CUOMO: Right.
CAMEROTA: An important point because everyone worries about that. And at the moment, he's saying that there's no (INAUDIBLE)
[08:54:49]
CUOMO: Yes. But most importantly, I think for you at home is that right now, the French prosecutor, in his opinion, has confirmed that this was a deliberate action, by the co-pilot, to lock the captain out of the cockpit and then, to take control of the airplane and cause it to crash in Flight 9525. Let's bring in David Souci and Richard Quest --
QUEST: I --
CUOMO: -- here.
QUEST: I think what you've just said, Chris, sums it up. We can sit around this table, for ages and pass the difference of was doors open, were locks released, was whatever. But the core point is what you've just said. We leave this morning with the prosecutor having told us that the co-pilot initiated the descent, he activated the descent, at the same time as having ensured the door was locked.
CAMEROTA: Another reason that's so important is because there had been speculation that the pilots had become incapacitated.
QUEST: Right.
CAMEROTA: We were working on that theory for the past -
(INAUDIBLE)
CAMEROTA: 24 years, and the prosecutor does not believe that and the reason he doesn't believe it is because the audio on the cockpit's voice recorder picks up the co-pilot, who is still in the cockpit breathing normally.
CUOMO: And the other one, the captain, desperately trying to get back in.
SOUCIE: Right.
QUEST: I'm curious to know how he knows that -- and to use his words, that they dialed -- he dialed in the descent. We haven't had the data recorder. I can only assume it's from the noise of the click. As it goes -
SOUCIE: Well, --
QUEST: But, you know -
SOUCIE: I'm not sure that, you know-
QUEST: He may be
SOUCIE: Its a detense but 'm not sure it's a click.
QUEST: So I'm not sure that he -- He's pushing the (INAUDIBLE)
CAMEROTA: That's right. Because -- just because someone's breathing normally, doesn't mean they didn't-
(INAUDIBLE)
CAMEROTA: That they're not unconscious.
SOUCIE: I'd have a hard time breathing normally when there's somebody pounding and trying to tear down the door. You know?
CAMEROTA: Unless you're unconscious.
SOUCIE: You're right. That's a good point.
PEREIRA: We want to bring in Tom Fuentes, whose going to joining our panel, as well. We're listening to what has been told to the prosecutors - the prosecutors told the media. But also interesting, Tom, that he has told the families and what's an interesting point there, the families of the pilot and co-pilot are being kept separate from the families of the victims and that's a really important thing to see happen right now.
TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Sure., Sure that's for their own safety, Michaela. Because, you know, they have somebody to blame specifically. It's not, you know, an act of God or a mechanical thing that couldn't have been foreseen. If this was deliberately done, we're talking mass murder. On the point of how calm and calmly breathing the person in the cockpit was, you know, we've often seen in a case. Once a person decides to end it all, however they decide to do it, there's often times a serenity and a peacefulness that comes over them, that they're totally relaxed, totally calm and just go about their business of engineering the death.
PEREIRA: That is a shocking thing to consider.
CUOMO: So wait, let's fit that in, Tom, because we are acting off the information. The prosecutor is speaking with a lot of confidence here. You know investigations better than any of us, on this level. He may not know about flying, but he knows how to investigate crimes. This guy is a long time veteran and he seems pretty sure this was an intentional action. The breathing being calm creates questions, though, for us, right? Because well why, what if he's breathing and non-responsive because he's incapacitated? And what if the captain didn't know how to get back in? Then, could it still have been somewhat of an accident? But you're saying you've seen cases where someone, when they're about to do something this horrible, isn't intuitively the way we would think in a panic. Is that right?
FUENTES: That's absolutely true. And also in the case of where it's mental illness and not an act of terrorism, you can see that also. That there's just sometimes people are tormented and have a severe mental problem or something or something. Now, you wouldn't expect that in this case because you would think that someone with that level of responsibility would have demonstrated instability to co-workers and to family members, other people. And they wouldn't get to the position of being in the cockpit of a plane like this. But you never know. Some people have demons that are haunting them that other people don't see around them until it's too late.
CUOMO: All right, Tom, thank you very much. There's a lot of information coming in right now. It's a good time for us here on NEW DAY at CNN to reset and then tell you what we know.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN BREAKING NEWS
CUOMO: Thanks for staying with us with this special extended edition of "NEW DAY". We have breaking developments, that's why were doing it, in the Flight 9525. Here's what we know: French prosecutors say the co-pilot, named Andreas Lubitz, 28-years-old, deliberately activated the descent of the plane before it slammed into the French alps. This came after the captain, the main pilot, was locked out of the cockpit, by the co-pilot, in the minutes before the impact.
[08:49:40] CAMEROTA: Now, the cockpit voice recorder reveals devastating details suggesting that passengers did know that something terrible was going wrong. But they knew it only briefly. There was screaming captured in the moments right before the impact. The prosecutor saying he believes the crash was deliberate, but he was not, yet, classifying this as a terrorist attack. Were going to go now to CNN's Senior International Correspondent, Nic Robertson. He is live at the staging area in the French alps. What do we know, Nic?
