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Interview with U.S. Senator Chris Coons of Delaware; NTSB: Train Safety System Could have Prevented Crash. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired May 14, 2015 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:31:33] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: We are live in Philadelphia. And we do have breaking developments on the deadly crash of Amtrak regional train 188.

First, the engineer at the controls identified as 32-year-old Brandon Bostian of New York. He spoke only briefly with investigators saying he could not recall his speed at the time of the crash. His lawyer has now taken over the talking, saying Bostian doesn't remember the crash itself even though officials say he applied the emergency brake in the moments just before it.

Now, speed is certainly the key factor in the investigation. At this point, the question is why was this train traveling 106 miles an hour before it derailed? That is twice the recommended speed for that curve.

And then the human cost of this situation: seven dead, 200 hurt. That total could climb as the investigation continues and questions about whether this should have happened at all.

Why don't we have safety systems in place to stop a crash like this? That is something that the NTSB is taking a look at as well as just this particular stretch of track where the train derailed, because it didn't have an automated speed control system. It's supposed to have one by the end of this year. It could have had one years ago. And they say, the experts say, that that system would have prevented this crash even if human error is involved.

And that takes us to the issue of infrastructure, which needs funding but more importantly needs management. Now, a committee in the House just voted to cut funding. What does that mean for Amtrak? And why did it happen?

We have a member of the appropriations committee who's fought to increase funding for Amtrak. That's Democratic senator from Delaware, Senator Chris Coons.

Senator, first, give us the state of play in Congress right now on the issue of infrastructure for the rails.

SEN. CHRIS COONS (D), DELAWARE: Well, Chris, we're facing a very difficult budget year. The Republican Congress both House and Senate has come to an agreement that will slash spending across the board for domestic programs in particular, including infrastructure.

And I'm a member of the Senate appropriations subcommittee that's responsible for transportation. We are struggling to come up with a reauthorization in the Senate and the House for infrastructure broadly and for rail in particular.

One of our challenges is finding a way to pay for it. Republicans and Democrats agree that we have a significant backlog of underinvestment in our bridges and tunnels, our ports and our rail. Where we disagree is how to close that gap, how to pay for it. I think it's striking that the House Appropriations Committee just yesterday cut $250 million from Amtrak when they have had year over year improvements in ridership, in revenue in the northeast corridor and they are asking for and need significantly more, not less money.

CUOMO: All right. Now, while we're talking, Senator, we're going to show live aerials of the crash scene because it's still very active. We see the heavy equipment there. They're using to right the cars.

Just to be clear the NTSB says they haven't found more people at the scene. That's not why people are unaccounted for.

Now, Senator, you ride the rails. This is not just close to you politically but personally. And you understand the need. The question is, what is the fix?

Now, politics is poisoning this discussion in my opinion and here's why, because the left and right are fighting over money. So people don't want to deal with this on the right in terms of infrastructure because they only see it as a matter of money.

And they have a point on one level; Amtrak gets a ton of money. It gets billions. You've dumped so much money into it and you still haven't gotten the safety equipment that you were supposed to get.

[06:35:02] That speaks to money maybe not being the answer. You keep saying you need more but maybe you just need to do better.

COONS: Well, the federal government spends $1.4 billion a year on Amtrak. And as I pointed out, the Northeast corridor, which is the busiest part of our nation's passenger rail system, the one that spreads from Washington to Boston, 750,000 people a day ride it. And it has had steady year over year improvements the last five years in a row in its revenue and its operations and its ridership.

If we were investing anything like our competitors, we would have a modern national train system. The Chinese spend 100 times more than we do on improving their national rail infrastructure.

We have folks who call my office every day and complain about congestion on I-95, on the highways and the roads in Delaware and our region. We had a vital bridge nearly fall down on I-495 last summer. It showed a dramatic listing and cracks. And as you may remember in the Midwest I think in Minneapolis just a number of years ago, the I- 35 bridge literally collapsed in the middle of rush hour.

CUOMO: Right.

COONS: We have an aging infrastructure that we have to pay for. We have too many of these bills that are coming due, Chris.

And I do think Amtrak despite this tragic accident has shown steady improvement year over year and is worthy of our investment. Part of our challenge is that the vast majority of the country doesn't have the kind of commuter rail and passenger rail infrastructure that we in the northeast and mid-Atlantic enjoy.

I ride Amtrak every single day that I work in Washington. Most days, I travel down and back, as I will today, from Wilmington to Washington. And there's whole cars full of people commuting from New York, from Philadelphia, from Wilmington, from Baltimore to Washington.

To replace the Amtrak rails with automobiles would require a new 14- lane highway. We should be making this investment, Chris.

CUOMO: All right. But, Senator, the pushback is you are making the investment. And the words fraud, corruption, waste and mismanagement come up when we discuss Amtrak all the time with people on the left and the right.

And don't you think it's a mistake to ignore that component of this? It's not like you put no money into Amtrak. Yes, the U.S. gets outspent. Yes, there are good and bad reasons for that. But you shouldn't overlook the management of the money that has gone into it.

Right now you know you're getting lobbied, you specifically in Congress in general buy the big rail companies who don't want to implement the changes they're supposed to at the end of this year. And isn't it true that you're thinking of extending a timeline that there's no reason to? They should have done it and they haven't. Where's the accountability?

COONS: Now, we're talking about a distinguishable issue here. The Northeast corridor versus the freight rail lines that crisscross the rest of the country, and the significant investment that's required for positive train control, which is an expensive, necessary new system for train control both freight and passenger across the country.

I just want to go back to a word you threw out, fraud and corruption, that's not what I've heard about Amtrak's operations in the last few years. I've been a senator five years. And as I've served on the appropriations committee the last two years, we haven't had hearings in which the idea somehow Amtrak is a massive fraud and corruption has been incredibly advanced or proven. There are questions about the operations of rail and rail safety nationally. And that includes both freight and passenger.

I do think -- I actually just asked this very question of the FCC chairman in a hearing earlier this week. There are some critical barriers to getting positive train control done that had to do with the deployment of new communication switches, new systems, new towers, new poles because it requires putting communications lines all along the rail lines across this country.

CUOMO: But, Senator --

COONS: I do think it's an investment we need to make.

CUOMO: I know, but we are making investments.

What I'm saying is don't make it just about the money. Make it about how that money is spent also. And whether you've heard about it or not, the idea of money being mismanaged often to the point of criminality is something that passes through our court system all the time, involving the railways whether it's Amtrak or someone else.

I'm saying I get you about the problem. But in terms of fixing it, don't you have to be open to the suggestion it's not just about how much but it's about how well that money is being used, and making sure --

COONS: Of course.

CUOMO: -- that you're hard on the people who are supposed to do the right thing so we don't have a crash like this even if human error is involved, because you could stop it through the right safety systems and infrastructure.

COONS: Of course. And, Chris, the references to fraud and corruption, there are commuter rail systems, municipal and regional systems elsewhere the country where there was the issue. Those are not folks who come before me in Congress.

I have the opportunity to be questioned and engaged in advocacy for Amtrak. I just didn't want in the midst of this tragic situation, I didn't want it to pass that there was an allegation that somehow this accident by Amtrak was caused by those particular factors.

Of course I am concerned about how we spend our money nationally, how federal funds are invested and whether or not they're being spent in the right way and whether they're being managed well.

[06:40:06] There are concerns and challenges about how commuter rail is managed. And commuter rail and Amtrak and freight rail share the same rail system.

But I'll remind you, this morning as I go to Washington I will go over bridges and through tunnels that are a century old. We have underinvested dramatically as a country how we spend those moneys absolutely we need to make sure it's being put out to bid, it's being managed appropriately, investments in projects are being run well.

But part of what we see up and down the East Coast is a creaky aging infrastructure and rise in ridership as our country continues to grow. So, I think we can find ways to insure --

CUOMO: Understood.

COONS: -- fraud and corruption in the commuter rail systems and move forward with the investments that would have prevented this tragic accident.

CUOMO: Understood, Senator. And thank you for trying to address the problem because as we just know and seven families know all too well there's a price to be paid if safety's not in place. Thank you for joining us on NEW DAY.

Alisyn, back to you.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: OK, Chris, we are going to be talking about all of that throughout the program. And also, we're learning more this morning about the victims who died in that crash. We're going to talk to two of the best friends of the extraordinary young midshipman who lost his life in that derailment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:45:19] MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Investigators are now looking into the role that speed played in the Amtrak crash that killed seven people. Authorities say the train was going twice as fast as it should have been when it derailed in Philadelphia. The train's engineer, Brandon Bostian, told the NTSB Wednesday that he applied full emergency brakes moments before impact. His lawyer says -- has said since rather that he does not remember the crash.

CAMEROTA: At least 14 people dead after the Taliban attacked the Park Palace guest house in Kabul. A U.S. citizen, four Indian citizens, and an Italian man are among those killed Wednesday. Six others were wounded, including an Afghan special forces member. One of three attackers also killed and at least 50 guests made it out alive.

PEREIRA: President Obama at odds with his own party gets a reprieve on the centerpiece of his economic agenda. Senate leaders reaching an agreement to revive a bill that gives the president fast track trade negotiation powers. Senate Democrats had blocked it Tuesday. The president says fast track powers are needed to cement the Trans Pacific Partnership, a trade agreement with 11 other nations. The measure faces an even rockier path in the House.

CAMEROTA: Life in prison or death, that's the question facing jurors now deliberating the fate of convicted Boston marathon bomber Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. In closing arguments Wednesday, prosecutors said Tsarnaev had shown little remorse for his actions and deserves a death sentence. The defense said executing Dzhokhar would not balance the scales of justice.

PEREIRA: We are on the eve of Friday eve.

CAMEROTA: Is that right?

PEREIRA: It means we need to look at the weekend very seriously.

Meteorologist Chad Myers has a look at our forecast so we know what to wear, because it's really about fashion choices.

CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: It is. I'm going to the Preakness.

PEREIRA: Jelly.

MYERS: I'm already --

PEREIRA: She's green with envy, look at her.

(LAUGHTER)

CAMEROTA: Yes, head to toe.

MYERS: Hey, good morning everybody.

It is cold out. I hope you enjoyed summer Saranac Lake because right now you are down to 28 degrees out there. It is going to be a cool day across parts of the Northeast. It's 38 in Syracuse right now, 39 in Albany, and we get 37 in Scranton.

Here you go -- look at that 36 Syracuse, 29 now Saranac. Like you warmed up a degree. I hope you enjoyed summertime and your growing season. It's now over you have to replant everything out there. Thirty-two, Alpena, and 41 in Detroit.

So, yes, it will be a cool day across parts of the Northeast today, warmer tomorrow and then even warmer on Saturday. But storms come in late Saturday afternoon. Rain showers now into parts of Oklahoma, into parts of Kansas as well. And this is going to be the story for parts of the day today, but more so tomorrow. There will be another severe weather event that starts in the plains for today, tomorrow and then finally into the weekend.

Yes, there's going to be rain in southern California.

Michaela, there will be almost two inches of rain in San Diego. I'm not sure that's happened like in our lifetime.

PEREIRA: I know.

CAMEROTA: They need to change the song lyrics.

MYERS: Wow!

(LAUGHTER)

PEREIRA: They need it. They really need that water so we'll take it.

MYERS: Absolutely.

PEREIRA: All right. Thanks so much, Chad.

PEREIRA: So back to our top story. We still do not know why but we know the Amtrak train was traveling at twice the speed limit when it derailed. Could technology have prevented that crash? We're going to take a closer look at that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:52:30] PEREIRA: Good to have you back with us here on NEW DAY. The Amtrak train that derailed in Philadelphia was going around curve at more than 100 miles per hour. That is double the limit in a curve. A top NTSB official says if certain technology had been installed, the derailment might have been prevented.

That technology is called positive train control. It can sense if an accident is about to happen. And it can slow or even stop a train completely.

Joining me here on our big map is Richard Beall. He is a railroad operation and safety expert and a former locomotive engineer.

Really glad to have you here. Your expertise is invaluable to us at a time like this.

So, the animation can show sort of what happened here in terms of the 30th Street station, where the train left Philly. We understand it left around 9:10, about 15 minutes later is when this crash occurred. We know the train was going 106 miles per hour in that curve. The speed limit ahead of it would have been 80. But in the curve it was 106.

What on earth could have been going on here? You've been inside that cab of a locomotive.

RICHARD BEALL, RAILROAD OPERATION AND SAFETY EXPERT: I have. And it's unfathomable at this point what's really going on. And I don't know. The engineer's not talking at this point. I understand he has given a statement.

But, you know, this is a normal route. This is an everyday event that he encounters just like you would --

PEREIRA: Right, not an unusual run for him.

BEALL: Like you would in your car.

PEREIRA: Sure.

BEALL: Yes.

PEREIRA: Is it possible that the speed can just get away from you? It does in a car you've done that driving your own car you realize, oh, you better back off I've been going too fast. Is that the same type of effect that can happen in a locomotive?

BEALL: Usually when that happens that's a few miles an hour over the speed limit.

PEREIRA: Not 50.

BEALL: Not 50 or more.

PEREIRA: OK. So, I want to show you another animation here of the train going normally. If the train had been going normally, we've been hearing a lot about this positive train control. Let's say something had gone wrong. A heart attack of the engineer of the locomotive, something else caused him to lose his ability to control the speed.

Would positive train control here make a difference?

BEALL: It would have made a difference. It would have slowed the train when it recognized that it wasn't braking for this curve. It would have been computed into the system so that any train traveling at any speed would recognize what speed it was going that it was too fast and it would have applied the brakes on the train. It would have made what we call a penalty brake application.

PEREIRA: And that would feel different to passenger or would it feel the same as the engineer slowing down?

[06:55:03] BEALL: No, they wouldn't have known anything was going on. They would have known a function of the train braking and they have no idea why.

PEREIRA: The reason I ask because one of the survivors we spoke to here in studio mentioned the fact the only thing she remembers recalling as they were going into the curve, it felt as though the train sped up. What does that say to you?

BEALL: You know, when something an event like that happens sometimes it plays tricks on people's mind. They may have thought it was speeding up, but it could be the train was leaving the rail.

PEREIRA: OK. That's very interesting. OK. So if in the case there is a medical emergency in that cab, you're the engineer, something happens. Is there any backup?

BEALL: Well, there is. And if I'm running a train and I've come incapacitated or fall asleep, whatever happens --

PEREIRA: Distracted, medical emergency, any of those things.

BEALL: Fall asleep, anything. There's fail safes. We have alerters on these locomotives. First, it will start out there will be like a light. And that light will start flashing and get faster. And then if you don't respond to the light in 15 or 20 seconds, all the sudden you're going to start getting beeps or horns or sirens, whatever the type of locomotive has.

PEREIRA: The idea is to take the distraction away and grab your attention.

BEALL: But the trouble with that is it does take its own time-out sequencing. The light, no response, the horn, the bells, whatever, no response, and then it would go to a penalty application on its own. But then you're traveling, what, 150 feet a second at over 100 miles an hour.

So, it's just -- every second, you know, you got 150 feet clicking off. You're already into the curve. PEREIRA: The graphic we just showed, showed at the end of the crash,

the aftermath of where the train cars ended up, what does that tell you the way some were -- that one train car was essentially disintegrated, very little of it left? Some cars were flipped over, some were on their sides, some were hanging precariously by an edge. What is the way they settled say to you?

BEALL: Well, it was kind of like I saw the first night, it was dark but the next morning when I started seeing the daylight pictures, it kind of confirmed what I was thinking. I was believing that it was a speed event because the way the cars are literally hurled from the track. And most of them, a lot of them ended up on their sides.

And naturally -- what really probably happened here if they get down to brass tacks is this train is hitting this curve at such a speed, with such inertia and such centrifugal force going to the outside rail, and that rail is up right, it's about a foot high.

PEREIRA: Right, right.

BEALL: And the weight of the train is now pushing the top of that rail. The rail's going to start leaning. Once it's compromised, the locomotive's still peeling the rail as it goes around but the cars behind it start flowing.

PEREIRA: Richard, we're going to have to have you back. You're a very fascinating man. We've learned a lot from you today. Thanks so much for that.

We have a lot of top news to get to. Let's get to it right away.

BEALL: You're welcome.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a passenger train that has rolled over.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was thrown against the girl next to me, against the window.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The woman behind me lost some teeth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This train was going 106 miles an hour in a 50- mile-an-hour zone.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The man at the center of this is that engineer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Humans make mistakes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators haven't been able to get anything else from him. He is now lawyered up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Across the nation, we've got a huge infrastructure challenge.

CUOMO: There are safety systems that could be in place that aren't. COONS: It's striking that the House Appropriations Committee just

yesterday cut $250 million from Amtrak.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: All right. You are watching NEW DAY. Alisyn and Michaela are in New York. I'm live in Philadelphia covering breaking developments in the Amtrak crash.

There are questions swirling this morning about why was this train going more than twice the speed it was supposed to in the moments just before the accident. The engineer is being targeted. His name is Brandon Bostian. He's now saying he can't remember what happened in this crash. His attorney says not only did he tell investigators he doesn't recall the speed he was going, but that now he doesn't remember what happened at all.

Even though investigators say he certainly is the one to have pulled the emergency brake in the moments right before. This matters because of what happened to those onboard. Seven lost their lives. The number of injured could go up significantly because there are still those unaccounted for.

We're told by investigators that's not because they are somehow buried in what you're looking at right now. The crash scene itself, but it's because it's difficult to account for what's going on. We have complete coverage of this story.