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2016ers Face Confederate Flag Question; Ted Cruz Defends Second Amendment; Does Confederate Flag Symbolize Hate or Heritage?; Taylor Swift Takes on Apple. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired June 22, 2015 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOHN KING, CNN HOST, "INSIDE POLITICS": Difficult issues put forward because of what has happened in Charleston. It's a horrible tragedy and now in the wake of it, as the presidential campaign starts to gain steam, conversations about race, about guns, and about the Confederate flag, which has come up again and again and again in national politics as there has been a huge issue in the state.

[07:30:03] Hillary Clinton back in 2007, when she was running for president, says the flag has no place in a public state display. It is on the grounds of the state capitol. It used to fly over the capitol.

As a compromise a few years ago, they moved it to a Confederate memorial essentially on the grounds of the state capitol. Hillary Clinton said long ago it should go. Here is her Democratic rival, Martin O'Malley, saying, why are we worried about this today?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTIN O'MALLEY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The families of Charleston can forgive, can let go of their anger. Is it really too much to ask the state government officials of South Carolina to retire the Confederate flag to a museum?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: The Republican candidates, however, most of them have been a lot more careful. Mitt Romney, the former Republican nominee tweeted out over the weekend, a position he's taken in the past. He said in 2008 when he was running, get this thing off the ground, it belongs in a museum. It should not be on state property.

President Obama actually tweeted saying, "Good position, Mitt." Jeb Bush did this in Florida. He says he's confident South Carolina will get there eventually. He didn't specifically do it.

Listen to Mike Huckabee, a candidate for president, a former pastor says stop asking presidential candidates about this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE HUCKABEE (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I still feel like it's not an issue for a person running for president. Everyone is being baited with this question as if somehow that has anything to do, what so ever with running for president. My position is it most certainly does not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: That's his position, it most certainly does not. Some people think that marriage should be left to individuals or left to the states to decide whether gay couples can get married. Governor Huckabee says no. Some people think a woman should decide whether or not she can have an abortion and the government shouldn't get involve in that.

Governor Huckabee says no. Is it convenience for a public candidate to say I will give you my values judgments on the issues that appeal to my voters, but I won't discuss values and judgments where they might get me in trouble?

TAMARA KEITH, NPR: Running for president is one giant hypothetical question. The Republican candidates and the Democratic candidates ask Hillary Clinton about trade, will say, this is a hypothetical or I don't want to go there.

There is a certain level of convenience. There is, also, some of these candidates feel they are being set up. First it was vaccines. They were all asked to take a position on that. There were questions on do you think President Obama is a Christian.

And so I think that the candidates, at times do feel like the liberal media (inaudible) the Republican candidates feel like the liberal media is coming and asking them gotcha questions.

KING: Is this a gotcha question? If you are the president of the United States, and you saw the president of the United States, this president has had to come out many times after mass shootings. His Republican predecessor, George W. Bush did sometimes after big events, mass shooting, 9/11.

Your job as president is to lead the country when there's something big before the country. Is it unfair to ask somebody who wants to hold the nuclear football, to get the bully pulpit, what is your position?

You can say, if I lived in South Carolina, I would not support it. I don't but I hope this is where they go. What's wrong with that? Who are you afraid of?

OLIVIER KNOX, YAHOO! NEWS: It's a generous point. How would the country change and how would it change if you were president, sir or ma'am. It's time for politicians to retire the term gotcha question. What they mean is it's an uncomfortable question that I would prefer not to answer.

And you are seeing a lot of these folks focusing on the mechanism, which is, you know, no one is saying that if you become president you will issue an executive order that will ban the Confederate flag, that's not the issue here.

The point is are your personal values, are they consistent with flying that flag on state property next to the capitol? I don't think it's a gotcha question at all.

KING: If you are a leadership figure to somebody who might live in that state, yes, this is a decision for South Carolina to make and a number of Republican politicians have said give us a little space, we hope to finally get here. This has been a tough process. Give us space.

It's a fair question. What do you think? What would you do? What is your advice to your supporters in South Carolina? Perfectly fair question, sorry, Governor.

Another issue that's come up on this is the whole question of guns. President Obama, we've seen his frustration. He says I'm not going to quit, but he knows there's no prospect of getting gun control during his administration.

Secretary Clinton, Governor O'Malley, have come out forcibly saying it's time for new gun control. The Republican candidate, Ted Cruz, says, sorry, wrong about this one. He says Democrats, routinely after mass shootings try to push for gun control. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SENATOR TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: President Obama and Senate Democrats cynically use the tragedy at Newtown to try to push a legislative agenda to restrict the right to keep and bear firearms of law-abiding citizens. I think it was wrong and it was a mistake.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Politically, on this one, he's stating his answer. That's what we want. You ask a question, you get an answer so whether you agree or disagree with Senator Cruz. On this one, Republicans feel they are not on safe ground if you go state by state, a movement for gun control even after something like Charleston.

[07:35:03] KEITH: President Obama said in recent days, if 20 kids were gunned down and Congress didn't act on any sort of gun control legislation then clearly the political climate is such that nothing is going to happen.

The president basically said that. Ted Cruz is running in a Republican primary and Hillary Clinton and Martin O'Malley are running in Democratic primaries. They are saying the things that their primary voters want to hear from them.

KING: Cruz today, the Cruz campaign, returning contributions from a gentleman named Earl Holt III, who the South Carolina shooter was reading from a manifesto, it's a white supremacist group in South Carolina. We'll see if they return that money. Where do the politics go? We have a conversation about guns. We should continue and elevate a conversation about race.

KNOX: Yes, I don't think -- well, the conversation about race is going to be ongoing. I don't think -- 2016 is not the time to resolve that. The issue of guns, we have heard two different Barack Obamas in the last week or so.

The one who came out in the White House briefing room that sounded resigned to the politics of the issue, this Congress is not going to change its minds on guns. Later, he accused the press who covered him, I guess that includes me of saying he sounded resigned.

He said I'm not resigned, I haven't given up. The fact of the matter is, at least at the federal level, there's no room for a big shift in gun ownership and gun rights.

KING: A couple quick notes. NBC/"Wall Street Journal" poll essentially taking the temperature of Republican candidates, the first votes are a long way away. Marco Rubio and Jeb Bush at the top, 74 and 75 percent of Republicans say they could support either Senator Rubio or Governor Bush.

You see in the next column people said they couldn't. At the bottom George Pataki and Donald Trump, about two thirds of Republicans, 66 percent say they cannot see themselves supporting Donald Trump, interesting to watch that as we go forward.

But let's close with Bernie-mentum, a huge crowd for Bernie Sanders out in Colorado over the weekend, somewhere in the ballpark of 5,000 people in Colorado. You talked to him about this issue. What does he make of this?

KEITH: He said he was stunned. He thought it would take a while to build up some Bernie-mentum and instead it's happening right away. He believes, of course, that it is the result of what he's saying and that people agree with what he's talking about. I think some part of it is a reaction to Elizabeth Warren isn't in the race. They are looking for someone to say what he's saying.

KING: Democrats, finally, Mr. Cuomo, I think also to have a campaign. They've seen the Republicans moving around. I think he is generating a lot of grassroots momentum, but the Democrats are also happy. We have people out there campaigning, too.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: If you are looking for somebody to say something to nip two of your points together, you know, there's too much ducking of these questions. Bully, bully to you, my friend, insisting on the obvious, if you want to be president, you should give an opinion on what you think about the Confederate flag.

In fact, we are going to have somebody that represents the more popular side of this in South Carolina, which is to have that flag exactly where it is. Why would you want that? You are going to hear and we are going to test it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:42:07]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CORNELL BROOKS, NAACP PRESIDENT: Where we see that symbol lifted up as an emblem of hate, as tool of hate, as an inspiration of hate and violence. That symbol has to come down. That symbol must be removed from our state capitol.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Why the passion? Because when you think about the massacre of the nine people in Charleston, the worst thing imaginable would be to validate the hate that motivated that murder. That's what it was, a hate crime. It was terrorism in the name of hating blacks.

Now the polls suggest something else as a reality in that state and that's why the flag is there. This flag, the Confederate flag, the battle flag accompanies hate speech and white supremacy, so people should hate it, right? Wrong.

Take a look at this poll, 2014, before this event. Look at the numbers, obviously a racial disparity there, but 73 percent of white people in the state of South Carolina say they want the flag where it is. That is why it is where it is.

One of the men who believe this very much is Pat Hines. He is the chairman of the South Carolina League of the South. They say they are a southern nationalist organization. The Southern Poverty Law Center says they are a hate group.

Mr. Hines, I appreciate you taking the opportunity to discuss this. Before we get to the flag, let's get to the motivation for the passion about the flag on each side. When you heard about this kid, and what was in his head that made him do these terrible things, any sense of guilt for the propaganda that you put online.

That this kid, while he isn't on your rolls and rosters of members may have been reading the kind of stuff that you put out and motivated this?

PAT HINES, CHAIRMAN, SOUTH CAROLINA LEAGUE OF THE SOUTH: No, I don't have any guilt. I had no idea what the young man read except what I have read online. The passion we have is driven by the 500,000 people that were killed by the United States government of 1860-1865, and that's why the flag is where it is.

CUOMO: The question becomes why, right? I mean, this is not a new conversation. We know what happened in the civil war. We know what the flag represents. As one of your lawmakers said, it is a symbol of hatred. It is a symbol of slavery.

It is a symbol of the dedication to that proposition and your organization, of course, for those who may not know you, you are about that. You are about segregation. You say there should be a good word about slavery now and then.

You are free to think those things. Do you understand why coming off something like this is distasteful that there is something like that waving over a statehouse?

HINES: Well, we don't think it's a symbol of hate, number one. We don't hate anyone. If you see any of our literature, we don't preach hate about anyone.

[07:45:09] We support the well-being and independence of the southern people. That's where our nationalism comes in. We don't focus on deriving anybody.

CUOMO: Slavery was a good thing, though, right? Slavery was a good thing?

HINES: Slavery, well, without slavery, all the black people in the United States wouldn't be here. You know, if you ever consider that.

CUOMO: That is not a good way to rationalize their existence in the United States of America.

HINES: It's not a rationalization. It's a fact.

CUOMO: It's a fact that denies the context of brutality that marred this country on many levels. I do not think it is fruitful to discuss what your organization believes. It comes down to the flag. Can you tell me anything that flag represents that is not in some way harmful to somebody else?

HINES: Yes, it represents my ancestors who died defending our lands from an invader, a ruthless murder, as a matter of fact. Yes, it's a memorial to those men and I think it should stay right where it is. We did compromise 15 years ago and that was supposed to make the discussion end. Apparently, it's not.

CUOMO: Well, look, you know that hundreds of thousands died on both sides. You know what started the war. You know how it ended. You say you want the American flag taken down and it should be its own sovereign. That's fine, you can believe all that.

But, coming off this massacre, you don't feel any differently? You know guys like this killer waved that flag and it means to them that they are justified in feeling what they feel about blacks. Doesn't that make you give a little pause of consideration whether or not that symbol is worthwhile?

HINES: No, not at all. Again, we don't advocate anybody randomly killing people of any race, so, you know, I don't really know what went through this young man's mind. I'm in the medical profession myself. I can tell you that trying to figure out someone who does something like that is a full time job for professionals.

CUOMO: You say you don't know what was going through his mind. I submit you knew exactly what was going through his mind. He wrote it online. The ideas are all too familiar with you. He hates blacks. He thinks they are taking over society. Segregation needs to be done and he is going to do it. Are you surprised to hear me say that's what was going through his head?

HINES: Well, a friend of his, who is black, seems to think he wasn't racist at all. I have seen that interview. I don't, again, I don't understand what a 21-year-old was thinking when he has a close friend who is black who said he isn't a racist at all. I don't know what else to tell you about that.

The flag, the Confederate battle flag flew over the Army in Northern Virginia when we were defending ourselves against an invader. Today, it's a memorial for those lost men, 25 percent of the adult male population of the south were dead at the end of that war.

CUOMO: There's no question the loss of life was tragic. The reconstruction was that the country would understand it needs to be better. That's what makes so many depressed that flag still waves. I understand your right to your opinion.

Thank you, Mr. Hines, for coming on the show to express to people so we can make sense of the popularity polls coming out of your state.

HINES: Thank you, Chris.

CUOMO: Mich.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: All right, a very different subject here. Taylor Swift wasn't having it. She told Apple. They responded. We are going to tell you about a huge music showdown between a megastar and the tech giant.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: OK, time for CNN Money now. Chief business correspondent, Christine Romans is in our Money Center, a big day for stocks.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it looks like a terrific day for the 401(k). You can thank, Greece. Growing optimism that Greece and the European Union are close to a deal. Greece drowning in debt, borrowed heavily from its neighbors. It needs to raise taxes and cut benefits to its citizens, very unpopular there, but if it doesn't move fast, it won't be able to pay its bills.

All right, listen to the power of Taylor Swift. She threatened to pull her album "1989" from Apple Music. Apple promoting three months of free trial of its new service and Swift said, you know, she didn't like the decision that Apple wasn't going to pay its producers, its writers, its artists during that free trial.

In response, Apple almost immediately said, OK, all right, Taylor Swift, we will pay everyone. Please don't pull your music from our service -- guys.

CAMEROTA: She's powerful. She is.

CUOMO: She is. Big voice, big pull. Thank you, Christine Romans.

All right, so the search shifts for these two convicted killers on the run. Officials are taking a closer look at a corrections officer. There's been a lot of speculation that these guys didn't do it alone. We have the latest on the search for those two bad guys, Richard Matt and David Sweat coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:58:46]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: Potential sighting for the two escaped convicted killers in New York.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Saw a man run out a back door into the woods, he said the cabin was obviously burglarized.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They told us to stay home, lock your doors and windows.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A manifesto captures the 21-year-old's troubling words.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The focus here in Charleston remains nine lives who were lost.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As if they touched on the tragedy but didn't dwell on the tragedy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That symbol must be removed from our state capitol.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In my opinion, if any South Carolinian is offensive, it shouldn't be on state land.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: Good morning. You see that beautiful view of the city. Hope it perks you up a little bit on Monday, June 22nd, 8:00 in the east. We have breaking news for you, the search for the two convicted killers taking another turn.

More than 300 miles from the edge of Pennsylvania back near the upstate New York prison, they escaped from. What? Yes, there were sightings of these two bad guys, Richard Matt and David Sweat, someone thinks they saw them.

CAMEROTA: Now these fugitives have been on the run for more than two weeks, so will these new leads bring them to justice. We begin with CNN's Sara Ganim. She is at the site of the latest surge of police activity.

[08:00:07] Tell us what you're seeing there, Sara.