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Republican Hopefuls Square off at New Hampshire Forum; Darren Wilson Breaks Silence on Michael Brown Shooting; Severe Weather Kills Two in Circus Tent Collapse; Deputy Sued Over Handcuffing Third- Graders in School. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired August 04, 2015 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Republican presidential hopefuls at the voters' first forum.

[05:58:45] GOV. SCOTT WALKER (R-WI), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's not too late for America.

RICK SANTORUM (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm going to stand for the American worker.

DON LEON, CNN ANCHOR: The frontrunner was noticeably absence.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don't debate. I build. I'm not a debater.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Donald Trump is still surging above the rest.

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: This guy is for real. He is a threat.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All bets are off.

SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It sickens me to see what's been going on with Planned Parenthood.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Planned Parenthood provides valuable healthcare services.

DR. BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They should not fund Planned Parenthood.

CARLY FIORINA (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is about the moral character of our nation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The motion is not agreed to.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Outrage over a new video.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No!

RICKELL HOWARD, CHILDREN'S LAW CENTER: Why would that ever be OK?

KEVIN SUMNER, SHERIFF'S DEPUTY: I asked you not to kick. Sit back down if you don't admit it (ph).

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo, Alisyn Camerota and Michaela Pereira.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome to your NEW DAY. It is Tuesday, August 4, now 6 a.m. in the East.

And up first this morning, it is bigger than even the Donald. What is? The discontent of part of the GOP. And it is not going away. That, combined with a lot of media attention combining to lift Donald Trump in not one, but several new national polls, putting him way ahead right before the first Republican debate. Bloomberg has Trump with a 2 to 1 lead over Jeb Bush, 21 percent to 10 percent among Republican voters.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: It does not stop there. A new FOX poll has Trump reaching a new high, doubling his support. He gets 26 percent of Republican voters, Jeb Bush there at 15 percent.

The GOP field still awaiting word on which ten Republicans will qualify for the first debate on Thursday night. This, as 14 GOP candidates squared off at a forum last night. Notably absent was Donald Trump.

CNN's coverage begins this morning with Athena Jones. Tell us everything, Athena.

ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Alisyn.

That's right. We're just a few hours from learning who will be on that debate stage. From the top tier candidates, last night was a chance to practice their debate talking points. For those who won't make the cut, it was still a chance to make their case to voters, albeit on a smaller stage.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please welcome the candidates.

JONES: The first GOP forum wasn't technically a debate, but it certainly felt like a preview.

On Monday night, 14 presidential hopefuls for the Republican ticket took the stage at St. Anselm College in New Hampshire.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I pledge allegiance to the flag.

JONES: The candidates discussing their policies. And some using their one-on-one time with the moderator to dole out punches against Democratic front-runner, Hillary Clinton. FIORINA: She lied about Benghazi. She has, as well, lied about

her servers and the kinds of information she had on her server. These go to the core of her character.

JONES: Senator Lindsey Graham used his time onstage, positioning himself as the best candidate to take on Clinton.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: As to the Clintons, I've been dealing with this crowd for 20 years. I'm fluent in Clinton speak. When he says, Bill says, "I didn't have sex with that woman," he did.

When she says, "I'll tell you about building the pipeline when I get to be president," that means she won't. And when she tells us, "Trust me, you got all the e-mails that you need," we haven't even scratched the surface.

So I understand this crowd, and I can beat them. And if we can't beat them, it doesn't matter.

JONES: Noticeably absent from the stage, the current GOP front- runner. Donald Trump is still surging above the rest in three new polls out by Bloomberg, FOX News and Monmouth University. In fact, he's leading the next closest candidate, Jeb Bush, by double digits.

On Sunday, the Donald told NBC News he doesn't think you can "artificially prepare" for something like a debate. The unconventional debate prep from an unconventional candidate further fueling the intrigue around his performance in this Thursday's debate.

But fellow candidate, Governor John Kasich, says he's not worried.

GOV. JOHN KASICH (R-OH), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Maybe I'll give him a hug. I don't know. I don't think about all of that. It's not important. I mean, what's important for me is what I say. And let people kind of see, there's going to be so much time between now and then.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JONES: Now, Trump did not come up at all during last night's forum. The candidates were more focused on talking up their own views. A sign that those sharing the stage with him Thursday night are going to try to do their best to keep the focus on them, and not on the front-runner -- Alisyn, Chris.

CUOMO: Athena, I'll take it. And Donald Trump says he clearly won the debate last night, even though he wasn't there.

Planned Parenthood will not be defunded, at least not yet. Senate Democrats kept the GOP from getting a veto-proof 60 votes. But the fight, again, is not over. Some Republicans are using the "s" word, shutting down the government unless something is done about Planned Parenthood. The question: what will something be that's satisfying? CNN senior Washington correspondent Joe Johns joins us now with

more. You got an answer to that one?

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Not yet. Not so far, Chris. This was blocked on a procedural vote of 53-46, well short of the 60 votes needed to move that measure along.

But the issue of defunding Planned Parenthood is not likely to go away if conservative critics of the organization have anything to say about it.

Two Democrats, Senator Joe Manchin of West Virginia and Joe Donnelly of Indiana sided with Republicans on the measure, which would have taken away $500 million in funding. The first legislative fallout from those controversial videos. They put a spotlight on fetal tissue research.

And yes, it is likely to come up again in September, if there is another fight over shutting down the government. That's why it's not over yet.

Many Republicans also see an opening here and are hoping this issue could swing the abortion issue in their favor. In the race for the White House, three Republican candidates left the campaign trail in order to participate in the vote in D.C.

Back to you.

CAMEROTA: All right, Joe, thanks for all that background. Joining us now is CNN politics reporter M.J. Lee and CNN political reporter Sara Murray. Great to have both of you with us. Let's talk about what happened last night.

M.J., let's start with you. What do you think the headlines were?

M.J. LEE, CNN POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Look, I think the 14 candidates who were on stage were thrilled that Donald Trump was not there. Him not being there meant that the headlines we saw last night were not dominated by what Donald Trump did or didn't say, which is unusual these days.

[06:05:07] I was tuning in to C-SPAN to see what the callers were saying right after the forum. And it was fascinating. People were talking about George Pataki. People were talking about other candidates like Chris Christie. I mean, these candidates, since Trump has gotten in the race have, because he has sucked up the energy from the room, have really not gotten the time of day. And I think last night was an opportunity for them to just get a little bit of coverage and, you know, be able to tell the voters, particularly in New Hampshire, what they are about.

CUOMO: But this is a popularity contest. And Sara, as much as we like to have a little fun about Donald Trump because of what he provides the media and, frankly, what the media provides him, which is somewhat of a catalyst. These new polls, you can't ignore them. I mean, he is clearly out in front. What is the best answer to why?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I think the reality is, when you look at these new polls, we're not talking about 10 percent, 12 percent. Some of these polls have him with support from one in four Republican voters. And I think that tells us that he's speaking to a wider set of the Republican Party than we originally thought.

I think at first, we thought these were angry, disenfranchised voters, a lot of sort of white men. And now we're starting to see that's not the case. There is a broader dissatisfaction with Washington, a broader dissatisfaction with run-of-the-mill politicians. And we were a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) understanding.

I think that what you will see is other candidates try to harness that, not try to take on Donald Trump directly, necessarily, but try to talk about Washington and how it needs to be fixed, and how it's broken and how we need to change things and hope that, when Donald Trump does eventually get out of the race, if that happens, that they can then pick up his supporters.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Sara and M.J., let's take a look at this latest FOX poll. Because this one is pretty astounding. He's at 26 percent. Jeb Bush is at 15 percent. Then you see Scott Walker, 9 percent, and it goes down from there. I mean, this is an all-time high for him. He has doubled his numbers over the past month or two.

And so, M.J., I mean, to Sara's point, 26 percent aren't just angry people. That's bigger than angry people. They are enthusiastic people.

LEE: Yes, no, I think Sara is absolutely right, though. We're not just talking about 12, 13 percent. When you have double-digit leads over everyone else in the -- a very crowded field. You're the leader of the Republican Party right now.

I think the question, though, for Donald Trump going forward is can he bring up specific policy proposals that makes his lead more permanent than just a temporary one-month, two-month fling.

He has struggled, as we've seen. He was sat down for an interview with Dana Bash last week, and when she pressed him on specific policy details, he really couldn't go there on immigration, on Obamacare. So when the voters look to him and look to him as the party of the leader, is that sustainable if he's not saying, "Here is a detailed policy proposal for how I want to move the country forward."

CUOMO: Right. But sometimes -- you're right. You're right, period. But sometimes the voters will do it on a visceral level, and not on an intellectual level. They won't grade him as if it's a test. And Sara, that seems to be the case with Donald Trump, that he is getting somewhat of a pass for the traditional vetting for candidates because of the discontent, because of what's seen as his freshness and candor. And it's lifting him up.

Now, conversely, Hillary Clinton is going the other way in this FOX poll. What's your read on that?

MURRAY: Yes. So I think Hillary Clinton's numbers are really interesting in this, because the biggest issue for Hillary right now are people who see her as not trustworthy. I mean, you can see there, look, she's 51 percent up, 22 percent against Bernie Sanders. She has a wide lead.

But the problem for Hillary Clinton is that voters just don't trust her and just don't think that they can believe in her. And I think that's the shift we've seen since she moved from being secretary of state to being a candidate. And so people are starting to now look at her now through the lens of a politician. And they don't really like what they see.

I think for Donald Trump, it's easy to give someone the benefit of the doubt for a couple months. But I think eventually, they need to appeal to voters on both fronts. They need to believe that you are capable of being president, and they also need to sort of feel comfortable with you as a person. They kind of need to like you. Because voting for president is a very personal vote. And as you pointed out, it's more than just a policy proposal. It's how you feel about this person.

CAMEROTA: M.J., let's talk about what jumped out at you from the forum last night. It was an interesting set up arrangement. Each candidate got up on stage and sort of hoisted themselves awkwardly onto a stool, I found. And then they were asked questions for a few minutes. And then the next one came out. And three of them appeared via satellite from Washington, because they were voting on the Planned Parenthood bill. So were there any stumbles?

LEE: Yes, so people were calling it the GOP political speed dating. They didn't get a lot of time on the stage, but it was an opportunity for them to talk about the policy issues that they were interested in.

Jeb Bush did not have a strong performance. He seemed a little nervous. People were talking about this on social media. Seemed a little nervous, seemed a little uncomfortable. He at one point was trying to tell a story of buying a T-shirt that said that his dad was the greatest, but his delivery was off.

[06:10:01] Now, if I were on his campaign and advising him, I am hoping that this was his rehearsal, and that he is, you know, using last night to really shake off the nerves, and that he's not going to have a repeat performance of that on Thursday when it's going to be a much bigger audience, a lot more people are going to be watching. Not to mention, the wild card, Donald Trump, is going to be on stage.

CUOMO: The wild card. The -- the -- looking at last night, Sara, who popped?

MURRAY: Honestly, I don't know that anyone really popped from last night. I mean, people seemed to be kind of into what Lindsey Graham was saying. People seemed a little bit into George Pataki, who is a long shot in this race. I actually think that people see more of Carly Fiorina and they sort of like what they see.

But the reality is, what we saw last night is not really a very good precursor for what we're going to see on Thursday. This was essentially candidates going around answering questions, not a lot of interaction with one another.

And what we know about previous debates, is that's what really drives the headline, is when you see these candidates play off one another and you get these sort of unscripted moments. That sort of gives a window into what they would be like as president more than almost anything else. Because, you know, it's not planned. It's how are you reacting with this stress, this stimulus in the moment? And I think we're going to see a lot more of that on Thursday than what we saw last night.

CAMEROTA: M.J., Sara, thanks for all the analysis. We should also mention that coming up in our next hour, we will talk about the fight over Planned Parenthood funding with the organization's executive vice president, Dawn Laguens.

Also, in our 8 a.m. hour, we will hear from David Daleiden. He is the man behind those controversial sting videos that have fueled the funding battle. So stick around for all of that -- Michaela.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Darren Wilson is breaking his silence. The former Ferguson, Missouri, police officer who shot and killed Michael Brown says he's not haunted by his actions and was just, quote, "doing his job" that day. Brown's family, though, say Wilson's comments in the latest issue of the "New York Magazine" prove he's racist.

CNN's Boris Sanchez joins us now with more, quite a long article in "The New Yorker."

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Michaela. Repeatedly in that piece, Darren Wilson says he's trying to move away from what happened in Ferguson. He literally has moved away to a new home. He has a new daughter that was born in March. He has cameras outside his home. His name isn't even on the deed to the property where he lives.

And even though he's trying to stay out of the spotlight, these new comments in "The New Yorker" coming close to the eve of the one- year anniversary of Michael Brown's death, are stirring controversy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ (voice-over): Darren Wilson speaking out almost a year after shooting and killing unarmed 18-year-old Michael Brown. A new photo of the former Ferguson police officer accompanying an over 20- page in-depth interview by "The New Yorker" magazine. The reporter, who spent several days with him in March, says the now-29-year-old lives in an undisclosed new home. Very few know where.

DARREN WILSON, FORMER FERGUSON, MISSOURI, POLICE OFFICER: I want to have a normal life. SANCHEZ: Far from Wilson's wish proclaimed (ph) for he and his

wife in an interview with ABC News nine months ago, Wilson now says he'll only go to places where there are "like-minded individuals," and it's "not a mixing pot."

And about the death that sparked national outrage, Wilson says he doesn't think of Michael Brown as a person because, quote, "It doesn't matter at this point." When asked if he thought Brown was truly a bad guy, Wilson said, "I only knew him for those 45 seconds in which he was trying to kill me, so I don't know."

Brown's family says they're not surprised.

ANTHONY GRAY, BROWN FAMILY ATTORNEY: There are so many inconsistencies and hypocrisy throughout the article itself. It just perpetuates the view of Darren Wilson as being self-serving.

SANCHEZ: Wilson admittedly has not read the Justice Department's report on the systemic racism in Ferguson. The former cop says he's not going to keep living in the past. Wilson says if you live in a high crime area with a lot of poverty, there's going to be a large police presence. He claims it's not a race issue.

Wilson goes on to say that, in Ferguson, "There's a lack of initiative to get a job." The youth are "running in the streets," he says, not worried about working in the morning. The 29-year-old claims that culture is everywhere in the inner cities.

JEFF ROORDA, BUSINESS MANAGER, ST. LOUISE POLICE OFFICERS ASSOCIATION: Darren Wilson is no racist. I know him well. I think the article misrepresents who he is.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Wilson has said that he's interviewed at other police departments but has not been hired because they tell him that he's a liability. He also says he wants to go back to the Ferguson Police Department for at least one more day to prove that he isn't defeated.

PEREIRA: Very interesting.

CUOMO: A lot of security risks reaching out to other departments for jobs, saying they don't know how to go. No matter what happened in that investigation, it's certainly been an impact on his life. The question is what happens next.

Boris, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

So there's also an investigation underway this morning into what caused a circus tent to collapse. Two people lost their lives; dozens were injured. This happened Monday night in Lancaster, New Hampshire, during a Walker Brothers Circus show. At least 100 people were inside. Severe weather hit. And that's when everything bad started to happen.

Remember, it's not the only part of the country that's getting hammered by Mother Nature.

[06:15:03] So let's bring in CNN meteorologist Chad Myers. What are you seeing out there? Which way is it heading?

CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Well, the stuff across the northeast is headed offshore eventually, backing off to 5:45 last night. Here's where the weather went right through that area. A severe thunderstorm warning was in effect when that tent was blown down.

Down to the south, Tampa, you've had almost five inches of rain in 24 hours. Tarpon Springs to the north, 17 inches of rain in just the past week. A very wet couple days here in Florida.

Here we go, more storms in parts of the Northeast. Boston, New York, D.C.. I know you've already had storms, but there will be more later on this afternoon. We'll fire the storms back up in D.C., New York, Philadelphia, around 4 p.m. or 5 p.m. tonight. So if you are flying today, expect some delays for those late flights. Everything else looks good.

Now, if you're complaining about the heat, please don't. Because there are people out in the Southwest that I just want to talk about. Mesa, Arizona, I know it's 3 a.m. in the morning, but you're still 102 degrees. And by later on this afternoon, you'll be 112. So if you think 94 is hot, Atlanta, it is, but it's a lot hotter in Phoenix.

Guys, back to you.

CAMEROTA: Good perspective, Chad. Thanks so much for showing us that hot map.

Meanwhile, investigators begin analyzing the debris that washed up last week. Why we believe it to be from MH-370. A source says investigators from Boeing and the NTSB will be at today's meeting in France with the Malaysian investigator in charge. CNN also learning there is a second identifying number on the debris, a part number, that also ties the debris to a Boeing 777.

PEREIRA: The sentencing of Aurora movie theater shooter James Holmes is entering its third and final phase today. It is expected to be highly emotional. Victims and their families and their relatives will give impact statements. Holmes now one step closer to the death penalty after jurors rejected an appeal for leniency.

CAMEROTA: Well, so many people talking about this disturbing video of this little boy with ADHD. He's just a third-grader. He was handcuffed by a sheriff's deputy. And the video of this crying 8- year-old boy has, of course, sparked outrage. So are this officer's actions justifiable, ever? We break down what happened.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:20:58] CAMEROTA: Outrage this morning after a Kentucky sheriff's deputy is caught on tape handcuffing an 8-year-old boy for allegedly misbehaving. The boy has ADHD. And now the ACLU and a children's advocacy group are suing on behalf of the boy and also a 9- year-old girl who was restrained by the same officer.

CNN's Martin Savidge is live with us with more in Atlanta.

Good morning, Martin.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Alisyn.

Yes, this is one of those stories where you have to think there had to be a better way of handling this. I should point out the video you're about to see actually occurred in November of 2014. It's only come to light now because of a lawsuit that was filed on Monday by the ACLU. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUMNER: Now you need to behave the way you know you're supposed to or you suffer the consequences. It's your decision to behave this way.

SAVIDGE (voice-over): This controversial video is difficult to watch.

SUMNER: You don't get to swing at me like that.

SAVIDGE: The sheriff's deputy, now facing a federal lawsuit by the ACLU, restrains the third-grade boy with handcuffs. According to the complaint, the boy's arms pulled with excessive force behind his back. He can be heard crying out in pain.

The small, 8-year-old child who, according to the lawsuit, suffers from disabilities related to ADHD and a history of trauma, is shown in the 15-minute video cuffed at the biceps. His wrists apparently too small for the adult-sized restraints.

SUMNER: You can do what we've asked you to, or you can suffer the consequences.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It hurts!

SUMNER: Now sit down in the chair like I've asked you to.

SAVIDGE: That officer, who works at Latonia Elementary, identified in court documents as Deputy Kevin Sumner of the Kentucky Sheriff's Office. Also named in the lawsuit, the sheriff of Kenton County, alleging his failure to adequately train and supervise Sumner.

SUMNER: If you want the handcuffs off, you're going to have to behave and ask me nicely. And if you're behaving, I will take them off. But as long as you're acting up, you're not going to get them off.

SAVIDGE: The complaint was submitted on behalf of the young boy from the video, identified only as S.R., as well as another special needs student, a 9-year-old girl, who was also handcuffed in the same manner by Officer Sumner on two separate occasions, causing pain and trauma, according to the lawsuit. HOWARD: There was no legitimate law enforcement purpose there.

Neither child had committed a crime. And all of their behavior was really due to their specific disabilities.

SUMNER: Look at me for a minute. Look at me for a minute. Look at me. If you want the handcuffs off, you've got to stop kicking. Do you want them off or not?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SAVIDGE: CNN has reached out to both the school district and to the sheriff's office. So far, we've not had any response.

I should point out that in a statement that was actually given as part of the investigative report, the deputy's actions were explained that the child had apparently refused any directives from his teacher or vice principal and also apparently tried to swing with his elbows against the officer. But again, to watch that, really, really tough to see -- Chris.

CUOMO: Tough to watch, but you have to listen to what that sheriff's deputy is saying, also, because it's going to go to the justification for the actions. Martin, thank you very much for the background.

Let's bring in CNN law enforcement analyst and retired NYPD detective Harry Houck and CNN political commentator and host for "Huff Post Live," Marc Lamont Hill.

I am not referencing what the sheriff [SIC] said because I like to see kids get hurt. I'm not referencing it because I'm just a journalist. But it is fundamentally relevant to an analysis of this situation.

This guys is not some random cop who got called to the scene of something where teachers couldn't control the kid. He works in the school.

HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Right.

CUOMO: Let's start with what the rules are. Are you ever allowed, legally, to restrain a kid like this?

HOUCK: Of course. It depends on how the kid is acting. We don't see kids actions before he was restrained.

Now, the problem here is that the teachers in that school felt the need that they to call this officer to come over to where they were when this was occurring. Even then, the teachers didn't know how to handle this kid. Now you've got two things you've got to worry about. You've got to worry about him harming some other child and harming himself.

[06:25:05] CUOMO: Imminent threat to self or others.

HOUCK: Right. CUOMO: Really high bar.

HOUCK: Exactly. Yes, but the whole thing is, we don't know how that kid was acting. This is a lose -- these are always lose/lose situations for police officers.

CUOMO: I agree.

CUOMO: He says he threw an elbow at the sheriff, missed, and then he cuffed him. What do you see as the other side of this?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think it's absurd. I mean...

CUOMO: Your calls (ph)?

HILL: Well, a few things. One, the child's behavior was developmentally appropriate in terms of his age. It's also appropriate based on his condition. And the standard procedure based on every specialist, every care specialist, every psychologist, every behavioral specialist is not to handcuff these children. It's a relatively new pattern we've seen over the last 20 years.

So unless this kid, with what we didn't see, turned into the Hulk and grew 80 pounds and somehow was able to physically dominate the sheriff or other children, I don't see any reason to do this.

HOUCK: Sometimes you have to restrain a child because they're going crazy. I've had to do it before, many times.

CUOMO: But how do you deal with the conflict -- Hold on one second, because this is a key question.

HOUCK: OK.

CUOMO: The sheriff says this is allowed, it's legal.

HOUCK: Right.

CUOMO: The school, itself, says, "It's not our policy." Which wins? How do you negotiate the two?

HOUCK: Well, I think the school should have some kind of special restraints there for children like this. Because they're the ones who are supposed to be trained on how to teach these children and how to respond to them every day. So maybe we should...

CUOMO: Aren't they trained to use holds, though, not restraints?

HOUCK: Yes, I mean, but you can use holds. But you're worried about hurting the kid also. Like myself, I would rather handcuff a child, all right, than restrain them in a certain way where he's flailing and I'm holding him too hard. And I'm going like this with the kid, and he's going crazy. I mean..

But no police officer really wants to put a kid like that. I've never even seen that before.

HILL: But that's part of the problem. And this -- because you do. You said, you know, this wasn't a police officer who was brought in. He works there. The problem is a police officer works there. You know, 30 years ago, school discipline faculty experts handled school discipline. Principals handled school discipline. When you went to school...

CUOMO: Thirty years ago, it was called corporal punishment, which means "of the body," which means they used to be able to hit you.

HILL: No, that's actually not true.

CUOMO: It is absolutely true.

HILL: In 19 -- Chris, in 1985 you were not allowed to beat kids in school.

CUOMO: Yes, '85.

HOUCK: Eighty-five.

CUOMO: When I was there.

HILL: I was -- speaking of the 30, I was being generous.

CUOMO: Continue, continue.

HILL: When -- what I was saying with you is when you were in school and you got in trouble, you got sent to an office.

CUOMO: Yes.

HILL: And then the school handled it. Now, they outsource that to law enforcement. It's part of a broader policy in America, where internal discipline issues get made criminal issues. We criminalize bad behavior.

HOUCK: This wasn't so much a criminal issue.

CUOMO: Right, right. That's the one thing.

HOUCK: The -- developmentally wrong, something wrong here.

CUOMO: I hear you. Let's just deal with apples and not oranges here.

If this were little S.R. and little L.R., the little girl's name -- they should protect their names, of course. And they get into it with each other, and the cop is called from the school, and he cuffs them like he would two guys on the subway, we get that case.

But here you had a kid who, by their own definition of self, doesn't have the tools to do what the kid is supposed to do in that situation. HOUCK: Right.

CUOMO: So you're trained with different holds and different suggestions.

HILL: None of which are law enforcement. That's my point.

CUOMO: Right. But what happens when that line is crossed and the resource officer is called by the school to deal with the situation? And you now have a kid who, let's say she did -- let's take the officer at his word. He -- she did go after another student. She wasn't -- she was not listening to him. He could not do it. What's he supposed to do?

HILL: Use those restraints. Use...

CUOMO: No, you said never use restraints.

HILL: No, I'm talking about physically holding the kid. Physical restraint, not handcuffs.

CUOMO: Then what happens if we show the video of this guy manhandling an eight-year-old...

HOUCK: A child.

CUOMO: ... girl...

HOUCK: Exactly.

CUOMO: ... who's saying, "Let me go," and the man seems to be, maybe, inappropriate. Now what situation is he in?

HOUCK: Because the big thing they're saying here is these children...

HILL: That's a bad hypothetical, though.

CUOMO: Why is it a bad hypothetical?

HOUCK: ... have some kind of psychological problems. And the fact is that you can't talk to them like normal children.

CUOMO: They have developmental issues.

HOUCK: Right.

CUOMO: They have a special set of rules. Sometimes they age out; sometimes they don't.

Now what makes this bad? This kid is crying, and the cuffs are around his biceps.

HOUCK: Right.

CUOMO: The sheriff [SIC] says, "Well, I couldn't fit them around the wrists." Now they...

HILL: There's a reason why you can't fit them around his wrists. Because that's why they have them (ph).

CUOMO: Because he's a kid and the school says don't have them. Do you think he screwed up by putting the cuffs the way he did?

HOUCK: I -- I personally don't like it. But the whole thing is I don't know the situation and how -- how that kid was acting earlier. But if that officer actually thought this was the best way to restrain that child at the time for his own safety and for the safety of others, go for it.

Like I said, there's no way you're going to win as a police officer in a situation like this. You have a video that looks really bad. And here's an officer. He's trying to find something. He's got no special tools. All right? And he's got to go in and try and calm down the situation. The professionals can't do it.

CUOMO: Where are the teachers, by the way? Fifteen minutes he held the kid that way.

HILL: Because we've outsourced school discipline to law enforcement.

CUOMO: I don't think this counts as discipline.

HILL: You don't think handcuffing the kid in a chair is discipline?

CUOMO: I think handcuffing a kid in a chair makes people angry.

HOUCK: Exactly.

CUOMO: What I'm saying is discipline means to teach kids to follow a rule.

HILL: And that's what he just said to him. If you stop doing this, I will do that.

CUOMO: I know, but really, this comes under punishment. That's what we're saying.

HILL: It's textbook school discipline.

HOUCK: Yes, this was -- this was...

CUOMO: Where was the teacher?

HOUCK: How do you control a child that's going crazy? It's hard to do.

HILL: First of all -- first of all, two things. First, we don't know if he's going crazy. Second...