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Poll: 2016 Race Tightens in Iowa for Both Parties; Execution- Style Killing of Deputy at Gas Station; Legendary Horror Film Director Wes Craven Dies. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired August 31, 2015 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Anti-establishment candidates soaring to new heights. Donald Trump on top of the field, still.

[05:58:12] DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm leading in every poll by a lot. We're leading in every state by a lot.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bernie Sanders now within striking distance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hillary Clinton lost a third of her support since May.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is struggling.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can't waltz in and win a Democratic primary.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An unprovoked execution-style killing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have been in law enforcement 45 years. I don't recall another incident this cold-blooded and cowardly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This group Black Lives Matter. I put them on the same line as the Ku Klux Klan.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To Parker's parents, the tragedy has opened a window for change.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You always think there's a tipping point. I think this time it's going to be different.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We cannot be intimidated. We cannot be pushed aside.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo, Alisyn Camerota and Michaela Pereira.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to your NEW DAY. It's Monday, August 31, 6 a.m. in the east. Chris Cuomo is off. John Berman joins us. Great to have you... BERMAN: Good morning.

CAMEROTA: ... in the seat.

We begin in Iowa, where the presidential race is tightening for both parties. A new poll shows the anti-establishment passion building in the critical first-in-the-nation state.

On the Republican side, Dr. Ben Carson is gaining on frontrunner Donald Trump.

BERMAN: But wait, there's more. A dramatic reversal in Donald Trump's favorability numbers. And dramatic, I mean, like a complete reversal.

And on the Democratic side, Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders, he is now within striking distance of Hillary Clinton.

Let us begin coverage now with CNN's Athena Jones live in Washington. Let's start with the Republican field, Athena.

ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, John. As you mentioned, this new "Des Moines Register" poll shows the appeal of these outsider candidates we've been talking so much about. Donald Trump and Ben Carson. You saw there Donald Trump in the lead with 23 percent of the vote. Ben Carson, the retired neurosurgeon, at 18 percent. What do these two guys have in common? Neither one has ever been elected to public office.

You can see there the Wisconsin governor, Scott Walker, who had been in the lead for months in Iowa, is now all the way down to 8 percent.

I think we have another graph that we can put on the screen, a line graph showing how the candidates have jockeyed a little bit, changed around over the last couple of months. And really, Trump and Carson's rise has been Walker's loss. He's not the only so-called big-name top-tier candidate who isn't doing too well right now. Bush, governor -- Florida governor, Jeb Bush, is at 6 percent and Marco Rubio is also just at 6 percent.

But one thing that you mentioned that's really remarkable is how much Donald Trump's favorable versus unfavorable numbers changed. We can put that up on the screen. Now 61 percent see him as -- have a favorable view of him, versus just 35 percent unfavorable. That's practically switched completely since May when just 27 percent had a favorable view of him.

And of course, John, this is all -- this is after Donald Trump has made the controversial comments about immigrants crossing the Mexican border, about John McCain's military service, about Megyn Kelly. Voters like what he's saying. They talk about his no-nonsense approach, the idea that he has this tough rhetoric and that he'll really get the job done. It's a real reaction to sort of the anger and frustration people have with politicians in Washington -- Michaela. MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Athena. Thank you so

much.

Well, these new poll numbers are also adding up for another antiestablishment candidate. Democrat Bernie Sanders, Vermont senator, cutting Hillary Clinton's once-commanding lead in Iowa to just single digits. This as Vice President Joe Biden mulls a run.

Michelle Kosinski is live at the White House with more on the Democratic field. Good morning to you.

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Michaela.

Right. Things just keep getting more and more interesting. I mean, this poll shows Bernie Sanders only seven percentage points away from Hillary Clinton.

So this is a poll in Iowa of likely Democratic voters, showing Hillary Clinton with 37 percent; Sanders with 30; and Biden, who is not even a declared candidate in this race, with 14. So this means that Hillary Clinton has lost about a third of her supporters over the summer. Biden has nearly doubled his, and Sanders, meanwhile, keeps distancing himself from Clinton. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I believe we should expand Social Security by lifting the cap on taxable income. That's not Hillary Clinton's position. I believe that we've got to raise the minimum wage over a period of several years to 15 bucks an hour. Not Hillary Clinton's position. I voted against the war in Iraq. Hillary Clinton voted for it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOSINSKI: So Biden seems to have the highest favorability rating. And in the race, if we project that out, he seems to pull votes about equally from Clinton and Sanders.

Back to you guys.

CAMEROTA: OK, Michelle. Thanks so much. Let's break down all these numbers, get some context. Joining us now is CNN political commentator and political anchor for New York One, Errol Louis; and contributing editor for "New York Magazine" and political correspondent for "GQ," Jason Zengerle. Gentlemen, thanks so much for being here.

OK. Let's just put up the latest Iowa poll number again so we can talk about it. Trump now at 23 percent. And here's what's interesting. Really interesting. Ben Carson's surge: 18 percent. Jason, I want to start with you, because I know you've been spending time on the road with Ben Carson. What is it about him that's resonating?

JASON ZENGERLE, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, "NEW YORK MAGAZINE": I think his surge is the most interesting, because Trump, you can kind of understand. I mean, yes, he's defying gravity, and he's saying things you can't say.

But Carson, you know, his appearances are almost sleepy. He gives kind of a TED talk. It's not really a red meat kind of speech. But he's -- he clearly is striking a cord. And it's really resonating. And he's doing it in a way that, you know, he does say controversial things.

But he's getting better at that. He's not saying as many. And he's really clearly saying things that, you know, people out on the trail like. And he's doing it in such a quiet way that I think a lot of pundits haven't really noticed. And I think pundits are in some ways confused by his rise. They saw his debate. They said he didn't talk enough and, you know, he was too soporific. But clearly -- clearly, he's saying something. I think people just find him very decent, and they find his approach just refreshing. And it's been really interesting to see how he's been able to, you know, kind of coast along and quietly sneak up on people.

CAMEROTA: Soporific, Errol?

ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Soporific.

CAMEROTA: That isn't normally what you look for in a candidate.

LOUIS: Great SAT word. I think of him, in some ways, as kind of a vicious teddy bear. Right? I mean, cuddly. He's avuncular, reminds you of some of your relatives from the -- from a family reunion.

But I mean, if you listen to the words that he says, this is a guy who said that, you know, America is on the road to becoming, like, Nazi Germany. You know, this apocalyptic stuff. The country's going to be destroyed if we can't turn things around very, very quickly.

And that's really what the dissatisfied core of the party, the people who are supporting Trump, who are supporting Walker, who are supporting Rubio, who are supporting Ben Carson. This is what they want to hear. This is what they believe. And he's giving voice to a very important kind of a sentiment.

[06:05:04] BERMAN: It is interesting, though. Because he's getting people to listen without shouting, which is what Donald Trump is doing, literally and figuratively. I mean, he shouts when he's there and, you know, giving speeches. And then he's on the media constantly.

I want to look at what Donald Trump has done here, because it's remarkable. His favorability numbers a complete reversal from May here. Look at that: in May, he had a 63 percent unfavorable rating; now a 61 percent favorable. You know, Jason, I was out in Iowa in July, so right at the midpoint, and people were -- were listening to him. They were paying attention, but they certainly hadn't weighed in and decided they liked the guy. Now, they paid attention. They've listened. They seem to be saying, "You know what? We like it." ZENGERLE: I think he -- you know, he speaks for people's

frustration about politicians and about Washington. I think the thing that Trump has going for him, more than anything is he can say, "I'm not a politician."

And you know, in the past five years Republicans in particular have said they're going to get to Washington, they're going to change things; they're going to undo Obamacare. They haven't done that. I think a lot of Republican primary voters, caucus-goers feel as if they've been betrayed. So they're not really ready to listen to another politician say they're getting to Washington and change things. When someone like Trump says that -- he's not a politician, he's never been to Washington before -- I think he has credibility in their eyes.

CAMEROTA: OK. Let's talk about the Democratic side, because that's interesting, as well. Want to look at the numbers there. Here's the latest poll. This is also from Iowa. Bernie Sanders is now at 30 percent. Hillary Clinton is 37. So he is narrowing the lead.

And let me just play for you why Bernie Sanders believes that he is generating so much more enthusiasm than Hillary Clinton. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDERS: We're generating enormous enthusiasm. People do not understand why the middle class of this country is collapsing at the same time as almost all of the new income and wealth is going to the top 1 percent. People do not like the idea that, as a result of Citizens United, our campaign finance system has become corrupt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: So Errol, I mean, if you further that out. He's basically saying that Hillary Clinton plays to -- better to Wall Street and the millionaires and the billionaires and he doesn't. Is that assessment right, of his?

LOUIS: In Iowa it certainly is, and the polling is bearing it out. That's why he's within seven points of catching her.

People forget that when Hillary lost to Obama in 2008, she came in third. There was another candidate, John Edwards, John Edwards was running on this notion of two Americas, we've got to sort of do better; we've got to close the inequality gap. He was sort of ahead of his time in that respect.

And if you look at things now, there are a lot of really poor counties right near the urban centers in Iowa. And Bernie Sanders is talking about doubling or more than doubling the minimum wage. He's talking about undoing the TPP, these trade deals. He was against NAFTA back in 1993 when Hillary Clinton was in favor of it. These things are remembered. These things are felt. And I think there's a rational reason why Iowan -- Iowa Democrats would be flocking to Bernie Sanders. BERMAN: It is interesting, because this poll, they also asked

Bernie supporters why do you like him? And most people said this is not an anti-Clinton vote. They are picking Bernie Sanders because they legitimately like Bernie Sanders.

But the question is, is there a ceiling for Bernie? I mean, he's at 30 percent right now. Can you see a guy who's running just as a pure progressive, you know, to the left of the party, picking up 35 percent, 40 percent, or is he about as high as he can get?

ZENGERLE: I mean, I think you could see a pure progressive pick- up, you know, higher than that. I think if Elizabeth Warren were running, I think Hillary would be in a lot more trouble than she's in right now.

I mean, that said, you know, Bernie Sanders is not Elizabeth Warren. He's not Barack Obama. I mean, I think people are thinking that Iowa is going to be a replay of 2008. The same thing that's happening there now that happened then.

You know, there was Barack Obama in 2008. There was John Edwards in 2008. They both had, you know, very good campaigns, solid organizations. I think there's a lot of questions still about whether Sanders has that. I mean, yes, he has a lot of enthusiasm. He has these crowds. He even has good poll numbers now. But does that actually translate to people going out and caucusing for him? And that remains to be seen.

I mean, Hillary, you know, her greatest accomplishment so far was clearing the field and scaring off a lot of other potentially strong challengers. And I think that's -- she's benefiting from that right now.

CAMEROTA: Errol, very quickly, is Hillary Clinton at all in trouble?

LOUIS: There's a scenario where she's in a lot of trouble. If somehow she loses in Iowa -- and right now, Bernie Sanders is ahead of her in New Hampshire. If she loses the first two states, it's a whole new ballgame.

BERMAN: Can you name the last Democratic candidate to lose both Iowa and New Hampshire and go on to pick up the nomination?

LOUIS: I cannot.

BERMAN: I think it was Bill Clinton. I think it was Bill Clinton in 1992. So he famously lost Iowa to Tom Harkin. And New Hampshire...

LOUIS: He didn't compete in Iowa.

BERMAN: Didn't compete in Iowa, and he came in second. But he lost tom Paul Tsongas. So it can be done. It can be done by someone named Clinton. So it is interesting to see.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Errol, Jason, thank you.

LOUIS: Thanks.

CAMEROTA: Let's get to Michaela.

PEREIRA: All right. Was a sheriff's deputy near Houston ambushed and killed solely because he was wearing a uniform? Authorities say Deputy Darren Goforth was filling up his patrol car Friday night when a man shot him in the back, then fired several more shots after Goforth fell to the ground. That suspect is due in court this morning on a capital murder charge.

[06:10:13] CNN's Ed Lavandera, live in Houston with the latest. Some sharp words from the sheriff there about that suspect.

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Emotions are high here. Shannon Miles could face the death penalty, charged with capital murder here in Texas. He's expected to make a court appearance later this morning. But not much is known about this accused killer and what authorities describe as a cold-blooded cowardly attack on a sheriff's deputy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LAVANDERA (voice-over): Nearly 1,500 people marched in honor of slain Texas deputy Darren Goforth Sunday, as the motive behind his execution-style killing remains a mystery this morning.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are also asking for donations to Blue Ribbon.

LAVANDERA: The Houston suburb community where he worked banding together. It has raised more than $120,000 over the weekend in support of his wife and two young children.

BRIAN MCCULLAR, FUNDRAISER ORGANIZER: I would want the family to know, and they know, that he was already a hero, even before all of this. He was a person that felt like he could make a difference.

LAVANDERA: The suspect, 30-year-old Shannon Miles, is scheduled to appear in court today after gunning down the 47-year-old deputy in what police say was an unprovoked attack. Authorities say the uniformed deputy was refueling his patrol car Friday night at this Chevron gas station when Miles, caught on surveillance video, came up behind him and opened fire.

DEPUTY THOMAS GILLIAND, HARRIS COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE: The deputy then fell to the ground. The suspect then continued over to him and shot the deputy again, multiple times, as he lay on the ground.

LAVANDERA: Police say there is currently no evidence they ever crossed paths. They suggest the killing could be related to the uprising against police brutality.

SHERIFF RON HICKMAN, HARRIS COUNTY, TEXAS: We've heard Black Lives Matter, all lives matter. Well, cops' lives matter, too. So why don't we just drop the qualifier and just say "lives matter" and take that to the bank?

LAVANDERA: The wife of the ten-year veteran released a statement calling her husband "an intricate blend of toughness and gentility" who was guided by "the right thing to do."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are a few bad apples in every profession. That does not mean that there should be open warfare declared on law enforcement. The vast majority of officers are there to do the right thing.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LAVANDERA: And the suspect, Shannon Miles, has a lengthy criminal record, including charges of resisting arrest, trespassing and disorderly conduct with a firearm -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: All right. Ed, thanks so much.

We have a very disturbing story to tell you about. In fact, I want to give you an opportunity to turn down the volume if there are children in the room, because an Arizona mom facing murder charges after drowning her 2-year-old twins. Mireya Alejandra Lopez arrested Sunday after police found the babies unresponsive. They apparently drowned in a bathtub. The infants were rushed to the hospital, but doctors could not save their lives. Family members say the 22-year- old mom tried drowning a third child, but they were able to stop her.

PEREIRA: The two Virginia journalists killed on live TV were remembered in an emotional interfaith memorial service over the weekend. The general manager for WDBJ paying tribute to Alison Parker and Adam Ward, calling for more help for the mentally ill.

A former reporter shot and killed Ward and Parker while they were on assignment, then turned the gun on himself. The family of Adam Ward is going to hold a memorial service this afternoon. He will be laid to rest tomorrow. Meanwhile, funeral arrangements for Alison Parker have not yet been announced.

BERMAN: The man who haunted the dreams of generations, bringing Freddy Krueger to life in "A Nightmare on Elm Street," has died. Legendary filmmaker Wes Craven lost his battle to brain cancer. He was 76.

Craven said the idea for the horror classic came from living next to a cemetery on Elm Street in Cleveland. He also created the "Scream" film franchise. This is a look back at his storied career.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Liar.

BERMAN (voice-over): Wes Craven dedicated his life to fear and making it just a little harder for us to shut our eyes at night. Classic films like "Nightmare on Elm Street" and "Serpent and the Rainbow"...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't let them bury me. I'm not dead.

BERMAN: ... terrorized generations.

DREW BARRYMORE, ACTRESS: I'm getting ready to watch a video.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Really? What?

BARRYMORE: Just some scary movie.

BERMAN: The slasher "Scream" series redefined the genre. They became blockbusters, the original grossing more than $100 million in the U.S.

Throughout his dozens of films, Craven blurred the lines between reality and fantasy in ways few could match.

WES CRAVEN, DIRECTOR: Audiences don't pay me to scare them so much as address their fears.

[06:14:56] BERMAN: A Cleveland native, Craven made his impact with his first film, "The Last house on the Left," in 1972, which he wrote, directed and edited.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You open this door, Krueger!

BERMAN: Later it was Freddy Krueger and his famous knife- fingered hands in 1984, that made him a superstar.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who are you?

ROBERT ENGLUND, ACTOR: Remember me?

BERMAN: Craven said he got the idea for "Elm Street" while living next to a cemetery while growing up.

CRAVEN: We submitted to the MPAA, and they demanded so many cuts, we finally put all the material back in and just released it. And if we did that today, we'd be hauled off in chains.

BERMAN: Throughout his career, Craven also had an eye for new talent: Johnny Depp, Sharon Stone, even Bruce Willis were featured by Craven early in their careers.

Craven succumbed to brain cancer in Los Angeles Sunday night. He is survived by his wife, and three children, three grandchildren. Wes Craven, dead at 76 years old.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: You know, I spent a few days with him on the set of "Scream 4" five years ago in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

CAMEROTA: What was that like?

BERMAN: It was -- he is such a nice guy.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

BERMAN: He was such a nice guy. Which is so strange...

CAMEROTA: Yes.

BERMAN: ... because his movies are so sick and twisted.

CAMEROTA: They are.

BERMAN: And I said, "Are you happy?"

He's like, "Yes, I swear to God, I'm happy and stable." And what he says he was doing was is providing a service.

PEREIRA: Putting it all on the page.

BERMAN: Exactly.

PEREIRA: Yes.

BERMAN: He was putting all this twisted, sick stuff. But he said, "I'm putting it in a box for people so they can be scared..."

PEREIRA: And then go back to real life.

BERMAN: "... and then go back to real life."

PEREIRA: You know what I love about him? And this is a good lesson for all of us. He started out as a humanities professor.

BERMAN: He was a teacher.

PEREIRA: You never know where life will take you. And what a life he lived.

CAMEROTA: And you never know what your humanities professor is really thinking.

BERMAN: Well, he said -- he said the other teachers, they stopped talking to him after his first movie.

PEREIRA: Yes, I suppose. I suppose.

CAMEROTA: These are the kind of movies that you scream -- you scream at the screen. You yell out.

PEREIRA: Absolutely.

CAMEROTA: So scary.

All right. Meanwhile, back to one of the top stories, more on the ambush killing of a Texas police officer. Was he targeted because he was wearing a uniform? And was this connected to the Black Lives Matter movement? We're digging deeper. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[06:20:58] HICKMAN: The viewpoint (ph) where the rhetoric ramps up to the point where calculated, cold-blooded assassination of police officers happen, this rhetoric has gotten out of control. We've heard Black Lives Matter. All lives matter. Well, cops' lives matter, too. So why don't we just drop the qualifier and just say "lives matter" and take that to the bank?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Well, that was Hickman [SIC] County sheriff raising the question of whether it was the rhetoric to blame for his deputy's death. That deputy was shot to death for, he says, no other reason than being white. The alleged shooter is black. So was this killing racially motivated?

Let's bring in CNN law enforcement analyst and retired NYPD detective Harry Houck; and CNN political commentator and host of "Huff Post Live," Marc Lemont Hill. Good morning, gentlemen.

Marc, I want to start with you. I mean, basically, you heard the sheriff there saying that he thinks that the anti-cop rhetoric in this country has gotten so elevated that now police are being shot.

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: First, I don't think the rhetoric is anticop. The rhetoric is anti-police brutality, anti-state-violence. People aren't saying "down with cops"; they're saying "down with the beating of innocent citizens, the shooting of innocent citizens." And there's no evidence that there's a connection between this rhetoric or this sort of national discourse I'd like to say we're having and what happened over this. It's an awful tragedy, but I don't think it's connected.

CAMEROTA: Yes, Harry? What do you think? Is it just anti- police brutality?

HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I'll tell you -- well, let me -- and I tell you, I think it was in Minnesota that Black Lives Matter had a demonstration. And I have it right here what they were saying: "Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon."

CAMEROTA: Harry, let me stop you for one second, because I just -- we have that. We actually have video of this. This was in St. Paul in the past -- I think over the weekend. And let me just play you a little clip of what they were saying.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon! Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon! Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon! Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon! Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon! Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon! Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: So there, Harry, that proves your point. It is a black lives protest, and you hear "Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon." Go on.

HOUCK: Sure. This isn't the first time we've heard things like this coming from this group. I mean, it's a group and just make assumptions. And they don't believe any evidence. You know, we're a country where rule of laws. All right? We go by evidence. We don't go by assumptions. This group is going completely by assumptions, and whatever falls into their narrative is what they're spitting out here. And what this -- at the same time, what this does create, this creates a couple lunatics out there who listen to this and take it all in and decide, well, maybe they're going to go outside and they're going to kill a cop.

CAMEROTA: Marc, I mean, you heard that. That is -- that is anti-cop rhetoric. That's happening.

HILL: Well, it's important to note that everyone who holds up a banner that says Black Lives Matter is not part of the Black Lives Matter movement or organization. There are -- it's an organization; it's a movement. There are branches all over the country. And they don't advocate this, and they don't -- they don't endorse those words. So I think it's a bit unfair saying...

CAMEROTA: What do they stand for? What does Black Lives Matter stand for? What do they want to accomplish?

HILL: They want to create systems of oversight and protection of everyday citizens from law enforcement that are acting outside the bounds of the law. It's about due process. It's about -- it's about citizen review boards. It's about body cameras in some instances. It's about protecting people from unnecessary state violence.

Harry's right. We are a nation of laws. The whole point of the Black Lives Matter movement is to say, "Let's have due process for people. Let's not have police execute people in the street, which is extrajudicial. We want something different." That's the argument.

CAMEROTA: Marc, are you saying that those who were saying, "Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon," they were not connected to the Black Lives Matter?

HILL: That's exactly what I was saying, in the same way you may go to a Tea Party rally. I've been to Tea Party rallies where I heard people say vile and racist things. I don't think that they were representative of the Tea Party movement; nor were they representative of Tea Party leadership. We still want them to critique those people and say, "Hey, they're not us," but that's exactly what will happen in that instance.

CAMEROTA: Harry, the sheriff is drawing the connection. He's connecting the dots, OK, in a way that the evidence may not suggest of why this deputy was killed. Let me play for you how the sheriff says that, actually, he doesn't know the motive. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HICKMAN: We have not been able to extract any details regarding a motive at this point. As far as we know, Deputy Goforth had no previous contact with the suspect, and it appears at the outset to be clearly unprovoked. At this moment, as this morning, our assumption is that he was a target because he wore a uniform.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[06:25:12] CAMEROTA: So Harry, is it dangerous to already say that somehow this is connected to Black Lives Matter?

HOUCK: Well, you know, I don't know if it's specifically connected to Black Lives Matter. But it might be connected to the rhetoric that's going on out there.

It's not just Black Lives Matter. You've got politicians that are saying things like this. You've got, you know, other leaders out there or alleged leaders who are saying anti-police rhetoric.

We've had some incidences, yes, where the police -- where the police officers are bad, all right. But the fact -- you know, we'll -- look at the Congressional Black Congress [SIC], some of the statements said that they've made regarding race and police officers in the Trayvon Martin case...

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: What has the Congressional Black Caucus says that would be suggestive...

HOUCK: All right?

HILL: ... that it's appropriate to kill a police officer, Harry? Harry, I'm asking a question.

HOUCK: That's not exactly -- that is not what I said, Marc. That is not what I said.

HILL: One second. What have they said to contribute to the rhetoric that would allow to...

HOUCK: There is rhetoric out there that is anti-police rhetoric.

HILL: All right. I'm asking what. I'm only asking what, Harry.

HOUCK: All right, where they're making assumptions the police are automatically guilty -- all right -- automatically guilty every time a white police officer shoots a black man. HILL: I guess -- I guess my concern...

HOUCK: Listen, you go to the Black Lives Matters -- just listen. You go to the Black Lives Matter website, you'll see right there that they are demanding, they are demanding the indictment and arrest of the officers involved in the Ferguson killing. All right. When in all fact, that officer was indeed exonerated of everything.

CAMEROTA: OK.

HOUCK: And that's what happens here.

CAMEROTA: OK, Harry.

HOUCK: Officers are exonerated all the time.

CAMEROTA: Marc -- Marc, he makes a good point. There is a rush to judgment. And there is...

HILL: When?

CAMEROTA: Ferguson was one. He just explained.

HILL: No, no. I wasn't a rush to judgment. The Congressional Black Caucus didn't rush to judgment on Darren Wilson. What they rushed for was an investigation.

HOUCK: Yes, they did.

HILL: And then they rushed -- they said they wanted a grand jury investigation. And they said that ultimately, they wanted to see a trial to find out his innocence or guilt. No one said -- no one in the Congressional Black Caucus said he's guilty. Surely, people in America said he's guilty. People said that about O.J. Simpson. They said that about Robert -- George Zimmerman, excuse me. They said it about lots of people. But the Congressional Black Caucus didn't say that.

And more importantly, having a critique of police officers is not the same thing as being anti-police. And that's the problem. Whenever someone says, "Hey, law enforcement may have acted inappropriately here" or "We have a corrupt system" or "We have a broken system around policing," when people say that, suddenly people say, "Oh, you're anti-police." And then police officers strategically use incidents like this, tragedies like this, and they exploit it for the purpose of advancing their narrative.

CAMEROTA: Marc, do you -- but Marc, do you think that police officers feel under siege right now?

HOUCK: Are you kidding me right now, Marc?

HILL: I do think police feel under siege. And I think part of why police officers feel under siege is because they've operated with impunity for so long. And so now having any kind of oversight, having any kind of intervention by the broader public, makes them feel that they're under siege.

HOUCK: Based on what facts? What facts do you have?

HILL: Because they're used to operating with absolutely no oversight or protection.

CAMEROTA: OK. Go ahead.

HOUCK: What facts do you have? What facts do you have that police officers have acted with impunity? All right?

HILL: I could give you some.

HOUCK: When police officers have done something wrong, they have been indicted and put in jail. OK? Give me some.

HILL: But that's circular logic. You're saying...

HOUCK: What fact?

HILL: You are saying that because they weren't indicted...

HOUCK: What facts? No.

HILL: I'm trying to answer you, Harry.

HOUCK: Everything you talk about is based on assumptions, Marc.

HILL: Harry, I'm trying to answer you.

CAMEROTA: Come on, Harry, let him give an illustration. Go ahead. Give him an illustration.

HILL: WE can -- first of all, the logic you're saying is circular. You're saying that whenever police do something wrong they're indicted and convicted. And the fact that they weren't indicted and convicted is evidence that they didn't do anything wrong.

My point is that there are instances where they did do something wrong and they weren't investigated, indicted or convicted. And the reason why I say that is if you look at the data. For example, if you look at Los Angeles, over a 10- or 15-year window, like 94 percent of review complaints, even ones that had witnesses or the ones that had physical evidence against police officers, they were dismissed out of hand.

CAMEROTA: OK, OK. Let Harry respond to that. So that's his illustration, that the investigations are not as often done.

HOUCK: Well, I want to see the evidence that they weren't done.

HILL: How about this? In the last year alone...

HOUCK: These are numbers -- these are numbers that you come out. It's just like the same thing as saying there's too many black people in jail, so therefore most of them are innocent. HILL: No one ever said that, though. You're just making things

up.

HOUCK: You can come out with numbers.

HILL: Harry -- Harry, but I didn't say that.

HOUCK: And you and I talk all...

HILL: I've never said that.

HOUCK: You and I debate all the time. You're saying there's an inordinate amount of black people in jail. All right? The numbers don't correspond to where they should be. Correct?

HILL: No. That's not what I'm saying.

HOUCK: You say all the time.

HILL: No, that's not what I'm saying.

HOUCK: Based on what? Based on what?

CAMEROTA: Hold on, Harry.

Marc, respond to that. We're getting into another argument, because this is such a heated topic. Go. This is your last.

HILL: My argument is not that because the numbers are too high or too low that everybody's innocent. That's a strawman argument, and it's an absurd one. My point is that there's evidence...

HOUCK: They're not proportional. That's what you say.

HILL: Yes. Black people are overrepresented; that's a fact. We make up 13 percent of the nation's population, and 30 percent of prison population, we are statistically overrepresented. That's not a question or right or wrong. That's...

HOUCK: Stop committing crimes.

HILL: That's not an ethical or moral judgement.

HOUCK: Stop committing crimes.

HILL: The question -- the issue is...

HOUCK: Do not break the law.

HILL: That isn't the point, Harry. The point -- the question is what happens when we're comparing apples to apples? For example, white and black people use cocaine at the same rate, but black people are in jail for it. Either the black people are really bad at getting caught or there is a race problem.

(CROSSTALK) CAMEROTA: Guys, hold on.

HILL: ... similarly, police never go to...