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Suburb of Belgium Raided in Search of Suspects Connected to Paris Terror Attacks; Interview with Congressman Michael McCaul; Measuring Intelligence Failure in Paris Terror Attack. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired November 16, 2015 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to our viewers in the U.S. and around the world. Michaela Pereira is in New York monitoring headlines there. Chris and I are here in Paris with all of the breaking developments in the aftermath of Friday's terror attack.

ISIS making threats now against the U.S. and our allies. There is a new video to tell you about, in which ISIS says any country that takes part in the U.S.-led airstrikes in Syria will face a similar fate to what has happened here in Paris. They have vowed to strike Washington.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: You hear sirens behind us. It's the new normal right now.

CAMEROTA: It's ridiculous. We've heard it every five minutes.

CUOMO: And France really isn't even the center of the current flurry of investigation. Belgium is. And we know that there are police mixed with special operatives on the ground. They're looking for a man believed to be the eighth suspect. There's all this intelligence intrigue surrounding that he may have been stopped after the attacks but let go not because it was a missed opportunity. He simply wasn't connected to the event yet. There was a raid that was active going on there in Belgium. They thought they had him. We've had no word as to whether or not he has been taken. This done in the context, also, of what was done militarily by France overnight.

CAMEROTA: Absolutely, because there were air strikes against ISIS in the Syrian town of Raqqa. But ISIS says everything that was hit, they claim, was already abandoned. So we have this story covered the way only CNN can with correspondents all over the world. And we want to start with Nick Paton Walsh, who gives us the latest on this new threat. Nick?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Alisyn, this video is emerging on social media, bearing the hallmarks of ISIS's normal organized propaganda machine. And the key quote delivered, as usual, by men in military garb, some leading out in front of armored vehicles, is "To the countries joining the Christian mission," that's basically the coalition air campaign as it stands, "you will have a day like France. We swear to God, you'll have a day like France's day. If we hit France in its home, so God willing, we will hit America in Washington. God willing, we will open Rome." Now, Rome is a long-term target, obviously the seat of Vatican,

in ISIS propaganda. I should point out none of this messaging here is new. This is what they always threaten in similar tones. But of course the timing is vital. The way they managed to penetrate the French capital means their capabilities could potentially target Washington. I'm sure many U.S. officials will dispute that.

But it is also them goading people on here. You know, many people view ISIS as entirely an apocalyptic movement. Rather than try to defend themselves and seeks a lower profile in the face of that French air bombardment over Raqqa, 24 strikes we're hearing hitting numerous targets, they're in fact standing up and saying, we're coming for you instead. That's designed to appeal to those disillusioned, some might say deranged youth who are attracted toward ISIS. But it's also them seeking that end of days message that's so much at the heart of what they do. Back to you.

CAMEROTA: Al., Nick, thank you for all of that breaking news. We do have more developments and we want to go to CNN in Nima Elbagir. She's in Molenbeek, a suburb of Brussels. And that's where there had been a massive raid going on looking for the eighth suspect. Nima, what have you learned?

NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We are hearing conflicting reports, Alisyn, as to whether Salah Abdeslam has been arrested in this raid. We're aren't getting any confirmation here clearly on the ground, but what we do know is that the raid behind me is continuing. In fact, since we last spoke, there has been another controlled detonation and reinforcement of police officers behind us here.

This, of course, all comes as a source close to the investigation in France tells CNN it was a Belgium national, Abdelhamid Abaaoud, also known as Abu Umar al-Baljiki, who is the suspected mastermind here. Abaaoud lived with his sister just a few streets from here. He was based in Molenbeek. It really reinforces the reality that so many avenues in this investigation are returning back here to Molenbeek. It reinforces the reality that what is happening here in this raid behind me, what is going to happen over the coming days here in Molenbeek, it's going to be crucial in unraveling not just what happened and how it happened in Paris, but what more is still out there. Chris?

CUOMO: And Nima, obviously, the aggression of forces in trying to find this eighth attacker have to be balanced with the fact they also have to find the eighth suicide vest they believe exists and whether or not he has it on him. It's obviously going to slow them down when they get close.

So we have what's going on in Brussels. We also have the investigation just trying to figure out who planned this and from where. Right now the word from French authorities is this originated in Syria. Let's bring in our senior international correspondent Clarissa Ward in Paris for the latest on the manhunt and the implications here. Clarissa, how do you see it?

[08:05:02] CLARISSA WARD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Chris. Well, a lot of information coming in this morning. France's interior ministry announcing that it carried out about 150 raids overnight, early this morning. During the course of those raids, 23 people arrested, more than 100 placed on house arrest. And some serious heavy weapons, including a rocket launcher found. Also, military clothing found in one location. It's not clear if this is related specifically to Friday night's attacks but, certainly, officials here are trying to pursue every single lead. They're looking for any information, trying to expand on the network who may have helped facilitate and orchestrate these attacks.

This comes on the heels of France's prime minister Manuel Valls who said he believes these attacks were orchestrated and planned inside Syria. We do know that at least four French nationals were among those attackers. Three of the attackers had spent a lot of time in Syria, so there's a lot of moving parts here. But French authorities really focusing on the manhunt for the eighth attacker. And as Nima mentioned in her reporting, the primary subject that was under suspicion who they are looking for right now, is Salah Abdeslam. He is the brother of one of the attackers who blew himself up at the Bataclan theater. And police actually stopped him and questioned him just a few hours after the attack, but then he was allowed to go on his way, driving, reportedly, towards Belgium. So a lot of information and a lot of moving parts here, Chris.

CUOMO: Clarissa, you have been making a point in expressing while we have sympathies for the French, part of the sympathy is pushing for accountability about what happened here. And they have a very tall task in front of them. At least two of the attackers were known to French authorities. What do you believe this situation revealed about the challenges that they have and, frankly, the shortcomings they have?

WARD: There are very real challenges. Something like 900 French nationals have gone to Iraq and Syria to join the jihad. Of those 900, roughly 185 have come back to France. And 80 of them are presumed to be in jail. That leaves about 100 on the loose. That's an enormous amount of people to be following day in and day out.

At the same time, Chris, as you said, we have French nationals who travel to Syria. Some of them had criminal records. There's no doubt about it, this is an intelligence failure, especially coming on the heels of "Charlie Hebdo." So there will be a lot of finger pointing and a lot of questions and people wanting to hold the appropriate authorities responsible for this failure, Chris.

CAMEROTA: Clarissa, thanks so much for that.

And we do have developing information on some of the terrorists. A French official revealing that one of Friday's attackers made it into Europe by posing as a refugee. This, of course, begs the question, can terrorists be stopped from infiltrating the west, and how many could have made it already using the humanitarian crisis as cover? Senior international correspondent Arwa Damon is tracking that angle for us from Leros, Greece. What have you learned, Arwa? ARWA DAMON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alisyn, that

most certainly is arguably one of the biggest challenges facing the international community at this stage in the intelligence organizations given the volume of people fleeing and coming through this refugee and migrant route from Turkey and then onwards to Greece. One of the passports found at the scene was traced back to the very island where we are right now, a tiny little island of Leros, population, 8,000. This individual was registered and fingerprinted here. That is the standard operating procedure when these refugees and migrants do come through. They are then issued a piece of paper that allows them to stay in Greece for 60 days.

We spoke with the mayor here, who has expressed something that we've been hearing from other Greek authorities, and that is that the coast guard, the police that are the ones who are doing the bulk of the registration here, the fingerprinting, don't necessarily have the needed capabilities. They have been even prior to the attack in Paris asking for additional support from Europe, from Frontex. Frontex does have a presence here but they need much, much more.

The issue, of course, is if an individual does not have a prior record, if they are just coming forward and getting fingerprinted, there's no database to check that against. And one thing that intelligence agencies have been expressing their concern about is that some of these people that are exploiting this refugee route at this stage do not have prior records. They're complete unknowns. And what they are doing is taking advantage of a route that the most desperate of peoples are taking at this stage, Chris.

CUOMO: Arwa, obviously, it's a very complex situation, trying to balance the humanitarian need with the security needs. And, unfortunately, one day in country is enough if you're here for the wrong reasons before you can disappear off the grid, assuming you were ever on it. We'll check back with you in a bit.

[08:10:05] Let's bring in Congressman Michael McCaul. He's the chairman for the House Homeland Security Committee and he had raised the red flag about terrorists infiltrating the west under the guise of being refugees, a reality that is now painful clear to everyone. Congressman, what is your take on this recent threat from ISIS, confirmed through Reuters, that it's not just about the French. It's anyone that takes part in the U.S. led coalition against Syria, including the United States specifically. What does that threat mean to you?

REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL, (R) CHAIRMAN OF THE HOUSE COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY: I take it very seriously. They said this is the beginning of the storm. I don't know where the storm is going to take us. It hit Paris, obviously, very hard. They downed a Russian airliner. We're really seeing ISIS, their capability, their external operations increase. In my judgment, it impacts the homeland, as well.

As you mentioned, there are direct threats now against the United States. And just very concerned where this is going to go. It's, I think, a lot of this also, the communications, the fact we didn't have this on the radar screen, that it went under the radar screen, indicates to me they could have been communicating in what we call dark space, dark platforms. And if you can't see their communications, it's very hard to stop this activity. This is a very coordinated, sophisticated attack. Something we don't want to see in the homeland.

CUOMO: What should be done differently in the United States in light of what happened here in Paris?

MCCAUL: Well, I think we are raising our security awareness, certainly at sporting events. But, you know, you can't stop it all. We've arrested over 70 ISIS followers in the United States over the last year. That's more than one per week. We have investigations in all 50 states. We have 900 investigations ongoing in the United States, in the homeland as I speak. And we're trying to stop it all. We stopped a lot of bad stuff, Chris, but you just can't stop it all. And this threat is magnifying. It's not shrinking. It's not going away. And if we don't deal with it in the core, that's Syria and Iraq, if we don't deal with the problem over there, it's going to come here.

CUOMO: Well, and that's why attacking at its source, as you suggest, is getting more and more attention. A lot of the attention is criticism of President Obama. Do you think it's time for you and your brothers and sisters in Congress to vote on the authorization for use of military force that President Obama was asking for two years ago, after a spade of violence in Syria and it didn't happen then? Is it time for that to be taken on the floor?

MCCAUL: I think that is our constitutional responsibility. I think Congress should declare war against ISIS. That would send a very strong message, I think, worldwide that we're serious about this, because, you know, look, if anything, you know, Paris is a wakeup call. We have not dealt with this -- it's been a policy of containment, not to defeat and destroy ISIS. And I think we need to galvanize the coalition forces, NATO and, quite frankly, the world, against this evil, this threat, that threatens not only Europe, but also the United States of America.

You know, the irony is, the president said that ISIS has been contained the very day this happened. Clearly it demonstrates that they haven't been contained. I would hate to see what ISIS looks like unleashed. They are not contained. And we need to defeat and destroy them.

CUOMO: A little -- obviously, the threat is real. A little bit of explaining the president's situation is contextual, right? He was talking about the ground war in Syria and northern Iraq, specifically, but obviously in light of the Paris attacks, the situation came into different context.

But you talk about the resolve translating into action. Again, I take you back to what you need to do within Congress. You say it is your constitutional ability and responsibility to declare war, and yet so many of the voices criticizing president Obama and calling for change didn't vote on that AUMF, still have not voted on that AUMF. Shouldn't that happen first?

MCCAUL: Well, I think a lot of us, it depends on what's in the language. I think it should be an AUMF that basically states that we will defeat ISIS wherever they exist. It should be a very broad authorized use of military force, and I think that's what the country wants. I think that's what the world wants. I think after Paris, this again, I think, gets the attention of the world to galvanize against this really evil force against mankind.

[08:15:02] CUOMO: Right. Why doesn't it happen though, congressman?

MCCAUL: I think Congress has a role.

CUOMO: Why doesn't it happen?

MCCAUL: Huh?

CUOMO: Why doesn't it happen? It's so easy to hear even Senator Graham saying, hey, we need to do more. The American people want to do more. The president hasn't done enough.

A big part of his ability to do more is you guys authorizing it. You haven't. Many saw that through a strictly political lens. Where is that debate on the floor? Why aren't we having this discussion, instead of just on television?

MCCAUL: Well, Chris, I think we should. When we met with White House council earlier, their authorized use of military force was more restrictive than the current authority after 2001 9/11.

And so, what we want to do is give the president and the military a more expanded authorized use of military force by Congress to eradicate ISIS wherever they exist. If there's an AUMF on the floor that said that, I think you'd see the majority of members of Congress vote for that. I think it's a great point, and I think Congress, we need -- we need to do this.

CUOMO: Well, you could propose it. It's an interesting thing legally and politically, the marriage of this situation, how the constitutional responsibilities over time have been shifted and mitigated, who declares war, who makes war, the War Powers Act, the AUMF. It got complicated.

Ultimately, it's simple. You could, Congressman, take to the floor and say, this is what I think it should be. This is within my constitutional responsibility as a member of Congress. The debate could go from there. It just seems like there needs to be some action on that level, as well.

But I appreciate your concerns and perspective on this. Let's see what you all do about it, because you're right, it is your responsibility.

Thank you for being with us on NEW DAY, sir.

MCCAUL: Thanks, Chris. I appreciate it.

CUOMO: Michaela, back to you in New York.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: All right. We'll take a look at some headlines.

In fact, breaking this morning, nine arrests in last week's deadly bombing in Beirut. Lebanon's interior minister says seven of those arrested are Syrian. Two of them Lebanese. One of them, a suspected bomber. The other accused of smuggling militants across the border from Syria. ISIS claimed responsibility for the attack that killed more than 40 in Beirut.

Back here at home, hundreds of mourners came out to remember the California college student who was among the 129 people killed in Paris. Friends, family, faculty and community leaders filled the Student Union Building at Cal State, Long Beach, to honor Nohemi Gonzalez. A candlelight vigil was held outside after the ceremony.

Gonzalez was a senior design student spending a semester abroad in France. She was killed in one of the restaurant attacks. Another vigil will be held at the high school where Gonzalez graduated in 2010.

Seventeen minutes past the hour here. Let's head back to Paris and Alison.

CAMEROTA: OK, Michaela. Thank you.

Ten months after the "Charlie Hebdo" massacre, a more sophisticated, coordinated and far deadlier attack now in Paris. So, how did intelligence officials in France miss this? We get answers, next.

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[08:21:53] CAMEROTA: French officials trying to get their footing back as they figure out what happened in Paris Friday night and how they missed the warning signs. Here this morning to help us, Jim Sciutto, CNN's national security correspondent, and Jean-Charles Brisard, chairman of the Center for Analysis of Terrorism.

Gentlemen, thanks for being here.

So, Jim, part of the problem is the scope of the suspects here in France. We've heard that there are 5,000 people with suspected terror ties, but maybe more.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Already the number that dwarves the number we have, for instance, in the U.S. But the fact is, there is a bigger number here -- 11,000.

So, 5,000 suspected of terror ties. You tack on an extra 4,000 suspected of having been radicalized and then others connected. And just imagine those figures in the U.S., and this is the challenge in the country. It's impossible to track them all.

I was speaking earlier today with Bruno Le Maire. He's a French presidential candidate on the conservative side. He makes the argument, and this is to say the least, a controversial argument, that there should be preventive detention for many suspects.

Now, that's -- France's system is similar to the U.S., you need to be charged with something to be detained. But in light of the terror threat here, you do have political leaders who are calling for more of a preventative, preemptive response. We're seeing a sample of that in the last 24 hours.

CAMEROTA: With all the raids.

SCIUTTO: More than 100 people under house arrest, 23 people detained.

CAMEROTA: Jean-Charles, another chilling notion is it's getting harder to track terrorists. Not just because of the number, but because they're using craftier methods. What does that mean?

JEAN-CHARLES BRISARD, CHAIRMAN, CENTER FOR ANALYSIS OF TERRORISM: We've seen that in many plots that we've foiled since January. Even for the January attacks on "Charlie Hebdo," they were using encrypted devices.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: So, encrypted internet dark web things.

BRISARD: Yes, dark web. Several phones, also, under other names than their own names. It is still possible to do that in France today. So, many devices to escape civilians and to become really unavoidable. I mean --

CAMEROTA: But because officials know that they are using the dark web and encrypted devices, can't they do that, as well, and track them? I mean, why aren't intelligence officials one step ahead of them?

BRISARD: We just adopted a new law a couple months ago that gives the authority to the intelligence services to use the tools to be able to track down the encrypted device. But it's really new. It's only implemented now, so it is very difficult to do this.

Added to this, what you've just said. The numbers, we are really overwhelmed by the numbers.

SCIUTTO: Usually with encrypted communications, and this you'll hear this from U.S. intelligence and counterterror officials frequently is that they don't have a go around on that. When they're in the dark, even the enormous power of the NSA, doesn't have the ability to intercept those communications.

CAMEROTA: Even something as innocuous sounding as PlayStation 4, somehow the terrorists were able to use. How so?

BRISARD: Well, they use the ability of the system to communications. But again, this is out of reach of the intelligence.

[08:25:03] We know that afterwards, when the investigation is underway. We cannot track that preventively.

SCIUTTO: One way you hear that they use PlayStation is that during these games, say you're playing a violent game like "Call of Duty", that you can talk to another player who's not with you, and you can discuss shooting and bombs and so on that, in that conversation, sounds like you're talking about a video game.

BRISARD: Yes.

CAMEROTA: I mean, it sounds hopeless, quite frankly. It sounds hopeless. We've given the resources to France and other countries and we won't be able to be one step ahead of the terrorists.

BRISARD: It's not hopeless. There are things that need to be done. For example, since 10 months, France has been asking Europe to put in place free, simple measures. First, the ability to control our own citizens when they're entering the Schengen border. Today, it is just impossible to do that.

CAMEROTA: Open border.

BRISARD: By law.

CAMEROTA: You want more control.

BRISARD: For the internal citizens.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

BRISARD: The Schengen citizens.

Second thing is, to have a Europol as a real platform to exchange information, real-time information about suspected terrorists, about radicalized jihadists, et cetera.

The third thing is to have PNR, European PNR. It's the passenger name records, to be able to exchange passenger data among the European countries. This is still under discussion. This is blocked for political reasons for the European parliament.

CAMEROTA: These sound logical.

SCIUTTO: They do. Listen, a lot of these steps, frankly, reminds me of the process that the U.S. went through after 9/11. You had a lot of issues of sharing with intelligence, even competitive relationships with the FBI and CIA, all of which they tried to fix with a director of national intelligence, bringing it together. Passenger watch lists, all these things, these steps. And that's when people say, this is France's 9/11, that's not just rhetoric, hyperbole, right, not just rhetoric, that you get a sense of these steps being taken out.

CAMEROTA: Meaning that things will have to change. You sense that things will have to change after this event.

BRISARD: We said that after the Madrid bombings in 2004. Nothing has changed. We said that after the "Charlie Hebdo" shooting in Paris. Nothing has changed.

So, hopefully, and I know the French government is pushing for that -- hopefully, something will change now.

CAMEROTA: Jean-Charles, Jim, thank you for all the information.

So, what was it like to be inside the stadium, watching a soccer match, when the bombs went off outside? We'll speak with a CNN contributor who was there.

We'll be right back.

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