Return to Transcripts main page

New Day

Gunmen Storm Mali Hotel Holding Hostages; Mali Special Forces Fight Back Against Hotel Siege; House Passes Bill To Halt Syrian Refugees. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired November 20, 2015 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: We're live here in Paris, sirens in the background, not unfamiliar a week after the horrible attacks here in Paris. But we are following breaking news right now out of Mali, a terrorist situation there, an attack on a hotel, a siege that at one point had at many as 160 people held captive inside.

It is an ongoing operation. It has turned deadly. For the latest, we have David McKenzie in Johannesburg -- David.

DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Chris, it's a rapidly developing situation, and we have the latest info from state TV that 80 people have in fact been freed by special operations forces who were being held, or in that hotel, at least, taken by two, perhaps three gunmen, in an early morning raid.

We've also got information that 12 members of Air France have been taken or are in a safe place so that's also good news. Air France is cancelling its flights to Bamako, which will be a major strain on their country.

This started all in the early morning hours. We've got new video for you showing the aftermath of the initial attack on that hotel. Two, perhaps, three gunmen in what we believe according to the U.N. diplomatic cars, or cars with diplomatic plates with Kalashnikov rifles went into that hotel.

[07:35:11]Three people confirmed dead, two Malians, one French citizen. It seems like the special operations team is working door to door, floor to floor, to try and get people to safety and to get to the two, maybe three, terrorists holed up in the hotel right now.

Now the Radisson is a very popular hotel for international travelers, for French nationals and others, many different nationalities in that hotel right now.

The U.S. Embassy asking people to hold fast. France's president, Francois Hollande has weighed in saying that, quote, "Terrorists want to work their barbaric presence on all sites where they can kill, shoot and massacre."

He's asked for French citizens in the country to move to the French Embassy for safety -- Chris. CUOMO: All right, David, thank you very much. Keep us apprised of any developments and again the big headline right now is that 80 have been freed. That means there may be still an equal number inside. We'll stay on that story.

Let's discuss in context what's going on here and who these attackers, may be. We have senior international correspondent, Christiane Amanpour. We have CNN terrorism analyst, Paul Cruickshank. We have senior national security correspondent, Jim Sciutto.

Paul, let's start with you. Who might these terrorists be? There are a lot of places to choose from there that are bad guy organizations. What do you think?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Chris, this could be ISIS, a group called (inaudible), a powerful group in Mali, pledge allegiance to Baghdadi in May. This may be their coming out party in Mali. There's been a lot of concern about this group.

There's a gathering insurgency in Mali, a lot of Jihadi activity in the northeast of the country. They've been targeting U.N. forces, the African-led U.N. forces over there, but it could also be al Qaeda-linked groups.

You look to an Algerian terrorist one-eyed guy who the Americans are trying to target in Libya in the summer and not clear whether they got him. The same group responsible for the hostage siege in Southern Algeria, in a facility in 2013, and also foreign attack in the capital where they killed a French and Belgium at a restaurant in the capital in March.

It could be them as well. It could also be a group called (inaudible), which is a powerful indigenous group and just last month the leader of a group affiliated to al Qaeda said they would launch renewed strikes against French international interests inside Mali.

CUOMO: I have a fact for you to put into your analysis that just came into my ear here, not just where they are in vehicles that had diplomatic plates, but someone who just got out of the hotel said that she heard who she believed were the attackers speaking in English. What would that mean?

CRUICKSHANK: That would be a stunning development, you know --

CUOMO: Reuters is reporting that.

CRUICKSHANK: They would potentially be either Africans who had some knowledge of English, but the fact that they would be speaking English together suggests maybe Anglo phones in some sort of way. There have been westerners that have tried to join these groups in the region.

Remember that attack on the gas facility, there were Canadians involved in that attack. Westerners on the side of the terrorists involved in that attack.

CUOMO: Just because they were in some part of the world, Jim Sciutto, it doesn't mean that you are from that part of the world, in terms of joining one of these terror teams?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: No question. One thing we know about all of these groups is that they're very international and have an ability to attract western recruits. We certainly see that with ISIS. One thing I would know just about what we are seeing play there, very key to see that security forces are inside the hotel now.

We saw the video of them inside the lobby. We were talking about this earlier. The new react-terror tactic is getting earlier. You don't wait, negotiating, set up a cordon, you know these groups kill first and negotiate later if they negotiate at all. That's important.

The second thing I would say is Mali Special Forces involved, the U.S. Special Forces have been training Mali Special Forces for a number of years now. There are 26 U.S. troops in Mali.

The reason I mentioned that is that it shows the issue has been on the radar screen of the U.S. and western governments for some time.

CUOMO: Why Mali? Christiane, talk about this place and why it would get this kind of attention?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, in terms of this particular attack, we don't really know, but in terms of that number of U.S. special forces, that number of splintering Islamist groups and about 1,000 French forces who are remaining there after their -- quite lengthy.

It started two years ago -- attempt, and successful attempt to push out what they called then al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, AQIM based in Africa, which at the time was considered one of these other affiliate offshoots of al Qaeda.

Now as Paul is saying there may be some splitting off into ISIS, al Qaeda, et cetera. It's long been an area where, you know, in the post-Arab spring craziness and sort of failed states and borders that are not manned, you know, has gathered in that area as well.

[07:40:02]CUOMO: Let's take a quick break to gather some more reporting, and if you need to figure out, why Mali? Not a name you hear often. Look at it on a map. It's an obvious transit point from Morocco into Algeria, Libya getting into North Africa. A lot of hot spots can get you there going through this place, and that's exactly how it's been used.

Stay with CNN. We'll have late-breaking details right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: All right. You know why we're in Paris. You know what happened a week ago today rocked French society, rocked the world, frankly, as a wake-up call about the depth and breadth about the war against ISIS, reverberations all over Europe and certainly in the United States.

There is a major controversy going on there now about what to do against ISIS and what to do with these Syrian refugees. It's become a metaphor moment. These Syrian refugees have become the personification of the risk for many Americans over 53 percent, who now say they shouldn't be allowed to enter the country.

Certainly a plurality of governors in the country is saying the same, largely Republican, but reflecting popular concerns. Let's have this discussion. Mike Rogers, CNN national security commentator and also former chair of the House Intelligence Committee.

Mike, you know this situation very well. You've served as a mentor for me and others on it. Let's have the discussion. You make the points of fact and policy that you believe encouraged this position of keeping the refugees out, and I'll give what are the pushback-points on that.

Ignore these sirens going by now. It's part of the new normal here in and around Paris. Police van going by, they use their sirens often here, does not mean anything urgent in particular. Mike, please, go ahead. What's the case?

[07:45:07]MIKE ROGERS, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY COMMENTATOR: A couple of things, Chris, and so first of all, you have to take race and religion out it. I think the president did a disservice when he tried to put in race and religion, into this debate.

You know, a few years ago, it was that we had some very serious national security concerns about the porous border in the south. Some 200,000, they would call them in the department other than Mexicans were coming across that border.

And any talk trying to say is there a way we can improve on that was you just don't like people of color. That's ridiculous. This is a national security issue. We're finding that out with the Syrians trying to use our southern border to get in, same with this program. The problem is a normal --

CUOMO: Mike, let's take it point by point.

ROGERS: You have the ability to check data bases in Eastern Syria and Western Iraq and other places. You don't have that. So you need to have an honest debate about it. They don't have access to that information about those individuals, and the process of which they go through doesn't have access to that information either.

So you're taking a bit of a risk and then you have this other problem, Chris, with people, we know that they've said they're going to infiltrate these Syrian refugee populations and they have successfully done that.

So you ought to step back, work with the governors about a process that says, all right, we have concerns. We don't have the resources to police the problem that happens. How do we do this in a better way?

The president didn't do that. He just said, well, you don't like people of color, therefore, I'm right, you're wrong. That's the wrong way to approach this and we'll never get to a common sense answer if we continue to have this fight.

CUOMO: All right. OK, Mike, you put a lot out there. Give you the points of push back and you answer them in some order, one, Syrians trying to attack the southern border of the U.S. You are talking about one group of guys that have been investigated from Honduras right now, not a flood.

In terms of what we know about Syrian refugees, you know the facts on it. You know, the breakdown is that it's largely male, female, 50/50. This isn't some warrior class that we're letting in. There have been almost no arrests in any relevant terrorism context of Syrian refugees.

They've been somewhat become the personification of fear for Republican governors. You know, legally, our governor has not a scratch of right to say that they won't take a refugee. It's a federal situation.

Maybe if they negotiated some type of right or privilege with their Medicaid contract with the federal government, they have funding leverage but they can't say no.

But ultimately, yes, they should be negotiated. My point to you is how do you justify shunning an entire group of people without any factual basis for them as a threat?

Maybe one of the guys here in these last attacks in Paris went through this refugee route as a fake Syrian, maybe one. We don't even have that substantiated yet. Where's the substation of the threat?

ROGERS: Well, I can tell you this, Chris, and this is what bothers me most about this is it's either you are all in or you're all out, and it's fear-mongering. It's not.

I think the governors have a point. Can you verify that these people don't have these problems? By the way, we think, you know, the numbers are in the thousands that they think have infiltrated into Europe, thousands.

So intelligence shows that. Others show us that. The FBI director came out and said, no, we can't really guarantee that these folks aren't trying to use this system to infiltrate --

CUOMO: If you want to scare them --

ROGERS: -- here's the problem. The president created this problem --

CUOMO: Go ahead.

ROGERS: You're either with me or some kind of bigot or racist. That is so non-productive. Why don't you bring those governors in, go through a process. If they need extra help on security, offer it. That never happened.

He looks for this to be divisive issue and so it leaves the governors in my mind really no better place to go and it makes everybody look bad. I think there's a way to go through this --

CUOMO: Look, there is no question --

ROGERS: They cannot. This is really important. They cannot verify that those folks have not been infiltrated because the intelligence services and law enforcement know that they have in the past. That's the problem. Even the Kentucky case where the Iraqis got in and were collecting weapons and looking to do terrorist act as a result a few years ago.

CUOMO: Right.

ROGERS: With the refugee Iraqi refugee program. So we know it has happened. Not a notion that it's never happened. It has happened. That's what I think the governors are basing their decisions on, I think.

CUOMO: It's happened with Iraqis. It's never happened with Syrians. We've been taking in Syrians for years as you know, Mike. You know all this. I don't mean to condescend. You've taught me much of this. It's happened with Iraqis.

It has not happened with Syrians and certainly President Obama would take exception how you're framing his perspective on this, but that's for him to defend.

If you want to scare people about this, if that's what's going on here and the Syrians are scary because we can't vet them completely as Comey said, one, we are talking about proving the non-existence of facts.

He's saying, well, if they are not making a mark on the system I can't tell there's anything wrong with them, well, that's a presumption that if there's no mark on somebody, there still may be something wrong with them.

[07:50:06]And then compare it to the vetting of every other immigrant population. These refugees, Mike, as you know, go through layers of vetting that no other immigrant population.

These refugees go through layers of vetting no other part of the population undergoes and don't you think that should be part of the calculus before you close off an entire group of refugees who are running for their lives.

ROGERS: It should be part of the calculus absolutely. I don't think anyone is saying it is not, but when you say it --

CUOMO: But it isn't.

ROGERS: You are saying no refugee has been infiltrated. Certainly to the United States, right, at least that we know of. But they have in other places including Europe. That is the problem. So we all have to argue about the same facts.

They have infiltrated refugee population. They are using all of their systems to infiltrate and then by the way top out of that system. They can get here under one system by fake passports, fake ids.

You can get on the deep web today and buy Syrian international driver's license, Syrian driver's license, Greek passports, Greek driver's license, it is so readily available.

And by the way, here is the scary part and this is why I think people are a little nervous about the security side. Not who they are or what their religion is.

It is the fact that we have millions of documents, especially passport documents and travel documents that have gone missing, millions over time. So people worry about that. That's why you're finding British passports showing up in places where you wouldn't think that they would show up meaning the terrorist getting a hold of it.

So we have this problem. Maybe if we take all our energy instead of trying to fight with each other about, you know, is somebody being mean. This is where compassion meets reality and yes, we should try to help the refugee population.

First of all, we should have done something in Syria and still should do something in Syria. That is what's causing the refugee population. That's what causing it. Inaction there is causing this problem here.

So let's deal with that and then try to deal with this security problem, Chris, where we know that they have infiltrated refugee streams and are telling us they are going to do more. That is the problem.

CUOMO: All right, Mike Rogers, thank you very much for laying out that part of the case. Appreciate the perspective as always.

We're going to take a quick break. We are following an emergency situation in Mali right now. Gunmen took control of a hotel, 160 people or more were inside. We do hear maybe 80 have been freed, but that means 80 may still be inside. We have details. Stay with CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:56:03]

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: We are watching a standoff unfolding at this hour with dozens of hostages being held in a hotel in Mali, less than a week after a night of terror in Paris.

It seems that we have been hearing stories from people who survived those attacks including some who made it out live by playing dead. There are schools of thought of other ways to survive.

Joining us now is CNN national security analyst, Juliet Kayyem. She is a former assistant secretary of the Department of Homeland Security.

First of all, Juliet and I both agree we are not inviting this in. We take no relish in having to discuss this, but we are hearing stories about this, is a bit a new reality, a bit of a new world order.

The U.K. National Counterterrorism Security Office actually released some guidelines. And I want to pull them up because they might be helpful in a situation like this.

JULIET KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: And while this may seem scary this is a great transformation of the Homeland Security apparatus. We used to say we got this. We'll take care of this. And now everyone is realizing we have to engage the communities and public and parents and others about what they can do to --

PEREIRA: They are part of it.

KAYYEM: And you have grip. You feel empowered rather than sitting there watching CNN all day -- my God, the world is on fire.

PEREIRA: First of all, identify the safest route and escape if you can. Run is the first thing. If you can't run, then hide, find a secure hiding place. Finally, call the police. Give them as much information as possible. Now that seeming as though that is a lot for a panicked brain to consider.

KAYYEM: Well, it is. But, you know, I know there was a debate with Ben Carson and others like would you take on the terrorists and whatever -- exactly. This is what I tell my kids, in an active shooting case, run. And then guess what? Run faster.

There are no heroes here and what we learned after Columbine, sometimes running is better. You don't want to just stay put because that actually becomes the target. If you can't run then you hunker down, bunker down.

And then in the worst case scenario, if you have no other option then you engage. You want to protect your own life and that is the most important thing and to protect the lives of those around you.

PEREIRA: A point they make in this guide is encourage others to come with you because not all of us react the same way in an emergency. Some might be inspired to move and others might freeze.

KAYYEM: Right. And on the response side, we are moving. We talk about this thing called hold up community response, rather than thinking the cop is going to save me, it's going to be engaging (inaudible), what are your neighbors doing? Do your kids know what to do if the cell service goes down?

PEREIRA: Right. KAYYEM: You know, where you all going to meet if you can't communicate? Do you have basic provisions in your house? You know, the number of people who are sort of worried right now, I sort of say, take 15 minutes, have a conversation with your kids, if they are old enough, figure out what you're going to do, a few provisions with that. It gives you a sense of empowerment.

PEREIRA: It is a very different sort of intense behind it, but it's very similar to having an emergency planning in your family if there is an earthquake or a fire. Unfortunately, this seems that would be the new world order.

Another aspect they talked about is just even in hiding. One thing I notice, it doesn't say play dead, but we've heard a number of stories where people have done that and survived.

KAYYEM: Right. I mean, this is all going to be this horrible (inaudible) -- about, you know, what situation you're in, but I think the most relevant thing about all of this information that's coming out now is that it's trying to engage the community, trying to engage citizens from all over the world about what they can do in these instances because you'll never going to lower the risk to zero.

We just have to get that over your head. There's going to be -- you try to minimize the risk, maximize protection so that's what you're seeing in New York now, the dog walking around and people, you know, major guns going around.

(CROSSTALK)

KAYYEM: And then the third piece of it is engaging the public, engaging the first responders to maximize our response capabilities and that's going to involve the holdup community and so people may be nervous about recommendations like this.