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New Day

Security Beefed Up in Rome & the Vatican; Interview with Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard of Hawaii. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired November 20, 2015 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00] JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: -- maximize our response capabilities. And that's going to involve the whole of community. And so people may be nervous about recommendations like this, but actually if you sort of think about it, it's like, oh, that actually can be helpful.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Juliette Kayyem, that's why we bring you, because you're so reasonable and you present it in --

KAYYEM: Security mom.

PEREIRA: Yes, we appreciate it. That's for being on security mom, we really do.

All right, that's the end of our hour. We've got a lot of news to get to, so let's do it now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN breaking news.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Viewers in the United States and around the world, you are watching NEW DAY. We are live in Paris. Just a week ago were the horrible attacks that changed this country and reverberated around the world.

There's also news out of here this morning of another attack, a terror attack in Mali, northwest Africa, a siege on a hotel there. As many as 170 people were inside at the time. At least three have died. Rescue operations still underway. We begin our global coverage with CNN's David McKenzie live in Johannesburg. We had heard that as many as 80 have made it out. That's means almost an equal number may still be inside. What do you know now?

DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Chris. This is still an ongoing situation. Malian special forces as well as U.N. forces are on the ground. As you said, according to state media, 80 people, hostages, have been freed from their hotel in the recent minutes. And then also Air France is announcing that a dozen of their employees who are at the hotel are now in a safe place. It's unclear if they are part of that 80 or separate from them.

France is announcing its sending an elite team of police strike force from France to the scene to help with operations as certainly there are French troops on the ground there, not in the capital. But this hotel, the Radisson hotel in Mali, is well-known, frequented by international travelers, diplomats, and other businessmen going into Mali to help rebuild that country which has struggled in recent years with Islamic terror and an Islamic insurgency. French President Francois Hollande saying that they stood with their ally Mali and also called on French citizens to be wary not just in Mali but across the world in the wake of the Paris attacks. Chris?

CUOMO: All right, David, thank you very much. Let us know of any other developments.

We have a great panel to discuss what's going on in Mali and why and what it means in the overall war on terror. CNN chief national security correspondent Jim Sciutto, CNN chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour, and CNN terrorism analyst Paul Cruickshank. When we're looking at Mali, geographically, from a terror perspective it has always been relevant, especially now. Why?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, certainly in the last few years and particularly as Al Qaeda has started to splinter off from its main hideouts in Afghanistan and Uzbekistan and Yemen, and then it started to branch all over Africa, Somalia, and this and that, that north and northwest part there, and started to have affiliates.

So then the west got very worried about it. There's an Afri-Com, a U.S. corps that's also quite worried about it and helping other forces there. And the French, very importantly, the French, which are actually going to take matters into their own hands, did so in 2013, so about two years ago, they went and for about a year they cleared out AQIM. So they fought back Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb attacks on cultural sites, on people, you know, this ethnic war was going on, religious war, and the French cleared them out.

And then now they have still forces there, about 1,000 mostly special forces. There are U.N. forces there. There are American special forces who are training them. And who knows really why this happened, but there are all these reasons, if ISIS or Al Qaeda wanted to, that would be a place for them to go.

CUOMO: A new development as well, French authorities saying they are sending a 10 person tactical team from here to Mali to assist. Paul Cruickshank, in terms of who this could be, lots of bad guys to pick from in that part of the world. ISIS has a presence there as well. And also tell me about what could be spurring this, which is some kind of depraved competition among terror groups to get attention.

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, there's a lot of competition in Mali right now between the different jihadi factions, and there's an alphabet soup almost of jihadi factions there with different loyalties.

But there's a group called Mosial (ph) that previously leaned more Al Qaeda which in May transferred its loyalties to ISIS, a powerful group with hundreds of fighters, one of the jihadi insurgent groups in the northeast responsible for attacks on U.N. forces over there. So this certainly could be another ISIS attack that we're seeing play out, but it could be an Al Qaeda linked attack. There's an Algerian terrorist with a long track record of terrorism, Mokhtar Belmokhtar that some of our viewers will remember was responsible for that hostage siege in Algeria in 2013 which led to the death of a lot of hostages in that attack, and was also responsible for an attack on a restaurant popular with ex-pats in the capital in which a Belgian national and a French national were killed in March.

[08:05:13] There's also a group called Ansar Dine which is one of the indigenous jihadi groups which was responsible for taking territory in 2012, forcing the French to intervene. Their leader Iyad al Ghaly just a month ago promised more attack against French interests in the country. So it could be any one of those groups. There's a lot of competition, as you say, between them. And now we're seeing these things which remind us, frankly, of Mumbai in 2008 where some of those hotels were taken by Lashkar al Taiba.

CUOMO: All right, so the timing, obviously, a week after Paris, a lot of this going on here after what happened here in Paris, obviously relevant. We're going to talk about that. But we do have another set of eyes on the situation there. Katarina Hoije. She's a freelance journalist on the scene there in Mali. And there is word, Katarina, that Americans are involved in this situation as well being in that hotel. What do you know?

KATARINA HOIJE, JOURNALIST IN MALI: I'm getting information that among the hostages were hotel guests staying at the hotel, Americans, Chinese, and also Turkish nationals, among them who have escaped. We've heard anything from 10 to 80 have come out so far. There are of course Malians and also Indians. I haven't heard of any U.S. citizens -

CUOMO: All right, so that's the situation there right now. Please, as I've been saying to you this morning, stay safe. Thank you for the information. Let us know if you have more developments. We'll come back to you.

Jim Sciutto, we were just talking about the obvious why we're here. One week ago the mood in this country very much matches the weather. And there's such a flurry of activity. We keep hearing the sirens. That's not just the goings on of a city like Paris. There are a lot of operations overnight and a lot of yield. Tell us about it.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: And 184 raids overnight, 20 people arrested, 76 weapons discovered in those raids. Any sense that the alert here has faded to any degree, forget about it. The French authorities, they're out there. They're looking for anyone tied to this plot. But they're also kicking the hornets' nest, in effect, right, because you have thousands of people on a watch list here. And that's what they're digging now. They're leaving nothing to chance.

CUOMO: So what happens when you kick the hornets' nest? The good news is you get to figure out hornets are. But I guess the rest of the metaphor is that they are now more likely to try to string, the hornets.

SCIUTTO: That's true. They are feeling under pressure. That's one reason why authorities felt such urgency to go into that apartment in Saint-Denis. They know the terrorists would know they were under pressure and feel the pressure to act. That's a great nervousness.

The other point I would make is what we're seeing here, whichever group is responsible in Mali, we are witnesses the francization, right, of terror here. Al Qaeda has any number of affiliate franchises around the world as does ISIS, each acting somewhat independently, sometimes with support from the mother ship, sometimes not, which makes it that much harder for international counterterror agencies to follow. It's easier when you have one core Al Qaeda, one guy in a cave who you can look for his connections and orders going out. When you have many perhaps acting independently, it's a lot harder to stop and prevent those attacks.

CUOMO: And confirmation, Christiane, that it takes so few to hurt so many. We're hearing two, three gunmen when into this hotel and as many as 170 people literally at their mercy.

AMANPOUR: Well, I mean, look, you know, three people go in with automatic weapons that can spray you at any minute, that's a large amount of firepower. And you can coral them. You can go to room to room, floor to floor, make them go to a coral.

But I think one of the debates that's happening right now, obviously, as the French today, the French senate is voting to --

CUOMO: Authorize a state of emergency.

AMANPOUR: -- extend, yes, sort of double down on what the national assembly, the lower hours of Parliament did yesterday for another three months. There's also a very interesting article by the head of Interpol, the former head of Interpol who said, look, we do have a problem in Europe. Schengen was a great idea when there wasn't this terrorist threat.

CUOMO: The open borders.

AMANPOUR: Now that there is a terrorist threat, the open borders are an open invitation to them. But still that must be sort of negotiated and see if you can tighten up.

But the real problem, he was saying, is that almost no countries actually check and do border controls and check wanted people into the Interpol database. There is an Interpol database. There are people who are suspected. And he's saying you've got to step that up.

For instance, Britain, after their 7/7, which was in 2005 in London, started to do that. And every year millions of people are checked. And Britain does more checks of passports and I.D.'s than any other country in Europe combined.

[08:10:00] The United States, the same. After 9/11 the United States started checking tens of millions of passports and identification against the Interpol database. And he's saying that this actually now needs to be much more formalized because of this massive market now. One of the most important black markets is in stolen passports and identities.

CUOMO: And we've been hearing more about that from officials.

Let's turn our attention to what has been happening here specifically in and around Paris with these operations. You heard about this massive siege by authorities here that led to the taking down of the man allegedly planning all of these attacks, some four in the last several months, certainly what happened here a week ago. You've heard about it, but we now can show it to you. There is cellphone video from a neighbor that was first sourced by ABC News that shows some of those early moments that led to a female suicide bomber literally detonating her belt. Listen to this.

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CUOMO: You saw the window blow out and that flash of flame. That was, they say, the suicide female bomber detonating the belt. You can hear the gunfire.

But remember this for context. This was just the beginning. It took seven hours for highly trained French SWAT assets and military assets to take on this group of terrorists in size. That is an eye for the training that these guys are receiving, the firepower they have, and the deadly intentions. And 5,000 rounds French authorities needed to use there. Dozens of grenades were in play as well.

Let's get to CNN senior international correspondent Clarissa Ward. She took us through the raid in Saint-Denis. What's the latest?

CLARISSA WARD, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Chris. Well, we're here just next to that apartment building. You saw that incredible ABC News video. The force of that blast, those windows flying out, flames leaping out of the building, that believed to capture the moment when 26 year old female suicide bomber Hasna Aitboulahcen detonated here explosive vest.

But Chris, we are now learning that it wasn't just two people but three people who were killed during the raid on this apartment. Let's just go through. We know that the alleged mastermind of the attack, Abdelhamid Abaaoud, that he was killed in that raid. We know also it's believed that his cousin, 26 year old Hasna Aitboulahcen was also killed when she detonated her explosive vest. French authorities say that there was another male who was killed in that apartment. We don't yet know who he is. Forensic experts still in here. We've seen them there this morning. They're still in there. They're still taking samples. They're still trying to determine who that third male might be. Of course a lot of people wondering, could it be the eighth attacker, Salah Abdulsalem. At this stage we simply don't know the answer to that. It was believed that Salah Abdeslam had actually made it to Belgium. So still waiting here to try to find out who is the third dead body in that building. Chris?

CUOMO: All right, Clarissa, on your lead, let's go to Belgium. We have CNN's Ivan Watson following developments from Brussels. Ivan? IVAN WATSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Chris, Belgian authorities have released seven of nine people that they held for questioning in a series of raids across the Belgian capital on Thursday. They've also extended the detention period for two other suspects who were detained in the wake of the attacks.

In the meantime, the manhunt continues for that suspect that Clarissa just mentioned, Salah Abdeslam, 26-years-old, born here in Belgium, a partner in crime of the slain terrorist Abaaoud. They were both sentenced to prison for a month for the same theft in 2011 here in Belgium.

Meanwhile, his brother has made another appeal via CNN for his fugitive younger brother to give himself up. Muhammad Abdeslam telling CNN, quote, "If Salah is still alive, I want to tell him that Abaaoud is dead. He doesn't need to be afraid of him now. He must go to Belgian authorities because it's the only to avoid being shot down by police." Again, that's the brother appealing to his fugitive younger brother, a key Paris suspect, to please turn himself in. The Belgian authorities are saying that as long as he's on the loose he could be very dangerous.

In the meantime you've had top justice and interior ministers from all across the European Union, Chris, meeting here in Brussels, discussing new possible measures that they could implement to keep the European Union more safe from terrorism. Chris?

[08:15:04] CUOMO: All right, Ivan, thank you very much.

It's not just about France and Belgium in this investigation, also Germany and now Italy. The FBI giving Italy a warning about five terror suspects who could be plotting an attack there. The U.S. embassy in Italy now putting Americans on alert after potential targets about the latest ISIS video talk about a conquest of Rome.

We have CNN's Delia Gallagher joining us live from there right now.

Delia, what do you know?

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Chris, Italy is on a level two alert. That is the highest security level that they can do outside of an attack actually happening. Nonetheless the Italian authorities are stressing that they do not have a credible threat of an attack planned at this time in Italy.

However, as you mentioned, the U.S. embassy yesterday issued a warning, mentioning three possible sites of terrorist attacks. St. Peter's Basilica, Alla Scala, the opera house in Milan, and Milan's main Catholic cathedral there. So, security has certainly been stepped up. The interior saying that they have added 1,000 military to some of these important sites in Rome and around the country.

And the foreign minister adding as you mentioned that they have names now of five potential terror suspects in Italy whom they are attempting they say to identify -- Chris.

CUOMO: All right, Delia. Thank you very much.

You know, as we keep saying with everyone in these developing situations. If you hear of new information please get in my ear and I'll come back to you.

There are certainly other headlines as well. So, let's back to New York and Michaela -- Mick.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: You've been doing a stellar job. We need to give you three seconds to catch your breath. I'll cover some headlines for you while you do that.

Here we go.

Jonathan Pollard, an American who spied for Israel, is a free man. He's been released from U.S. prison after his conviction for selling U.S. intelligence secrets to Israel. Pollard is now 61. He will have to spend the next five years on parole and is barred from leaving the U.S. without permission.

Three people, including a 16-year-old boy, are in custody this morning, accused of gunning down a police officer in Downey, California. Twenty-nine-year-old officer Ricardo Galvez was sitting in his personal car outside the situation Wednesday night when he was shot. They believe the suspects wanted to rob him and didn't realize he was a police officer. Galvez was a marine veteran who served in Iraq.

The president of the Minneapolis police union defending his officers who shot and killed Jamar Clark on Sunday. The union and one officer's lawyer say Clark had control of one of the officers guns during the fatal scuffle. His death led to days of the protests, claiming Clark was handcuffed when he was shot. These protesters demanding release of video from the area. Officials saying however that will not be released until the investigation is complete.

All right. We're staying on top of the deadly standoff in Mali bringing you any updates on the efforts there to rescue hostages.

But also, House lawmakers are saying refugees are not welcome here without tougher screening. We're going to speak with one of the nearly fifty Democrats who joined the Republican House passing that bill. We'll do that next.

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[08:22:01] CUOMO: Lot of developments to tell you about. One in particular, the House of Representatives passing a measure to suspend the flow of refugees coming to the U.S. from war-torn nations, notably Syria. This follows revelations that at least one terrorist in the Paris attacks did use refugee crisis as cover to enter Europe.

Joining us now, Democratic congresswoman and Iraq war veteran, Tulsi Gabbard of Hawaii. She voted for this measure in the House Thursday, also making other moves.

Congresswoman, good to see you.

REP. TULSI GABBARD (D), HAWAII: Thank you, Chris.

CUOMO: Surprised to see you here, but I know you are here to make support, but also to make change. Another bill that you're talking about is redirecting funds to what you say matters most in Syria.

Take me through the thinking on what you want to do.

GABBARD: Thanks Chris. It is important to be here to join the people of France and people here in France to show our solidarity. Right after I leave you here, I'm going to go and visit one of the memorial sites to pay our respects. I brought some flowers from my constituents in Hawaii to offer there.

But really, I think the focus has to be on defeating our enemy. Defeating ISIS. And one of the biggest problems that's getting in the way of that right now is this illegal counterproductive war to overthrow the Syrian government of Assad.

CUOMO: Let's take it piece by piece. Illegal because?

GABBARD: It's illegal because Congress has not declared war. It has not authorized a war to overthrow the Syrian government of Assad. And it's counterproductive because it works our to help our enemy achieve their objective to take over the Syrian government and to take over all of Syria --

CUOMO: And beyond.

GABBARD: And beyond. And presents an even greater humanitarian crisis and a huge threat, not only to the region but to the world. So, just yesterday before we left Congress, we introduced a bill, a bipartisan bill with Congressman Austin Scott that would defund the U.S. effort to overthrow the Syrian government of Assad.

CUOMO: Does this mean that you are not against Assad? That you don't think he needs to be removed?

GABBARD: That is beside the point. My point is, no -- first of all, no, I don't think Assad should be removed. And here is why. If Assad is removed and overthrown, ISIS, al Qaeda, al Nusra, these Islamic extremist groups will walk in and take over all of Syria and present that greater threat. They will be an even greater threat and it will be even stronger, and it will repeat the same mistakes of the past that we've seen in overthrowing a sectarian dictator in Iraq, in Saddam Hussain, of overthrowing a sectarian dictator in Libya in Gaddafi. And now, we're poised to do the very same thing in Syria.

CUOMO: The pushback is that Assad is a despot who is attacking his own people and is seen as being inconsistent with stability in that country.

GABBARD: People said the very same thing about Saddam Hussein. The very same thing about Gadhafi. The results of those two failed efforts, a regime change and the following nation building have been absolute -- not only failures but they've actually worked to strengthen our enemy.

And that's why I feel it is so important for us to not repeat that same mistake again in Syria, and focus on defeating our enemies, focus resources on defeating ISIS, al Qaeda and these other Islamic extremist groups that are perpetrating these horrific attacks.

[08:25:05] CUOMO: And what do you say to the people there -- the Syrian refugees who are running for their lives, yes, many from ISIS, but just as many from Assad's regime of, you know, obviously oppression on his own people.

GABBARD: Well, the first and most humane thing we can do for them is stop this war to overthrow the Syrian government of Assad, because this is what is causing so much of the carnage and so much of what's causing people to want to leave Syria and is secondly, is the reason that ISIS, the terror that they're causing there in that region.

So, we cannot defeat ISIS unless we first stop this illegal counterproductive war that works directly opposite --

CUOMO: You don't think you can do both.

GABBARD: We can't do both. You can't defeat your enemy if at the same time, you are strengthening them, at the same time.

CUOMO: Why are you strengthening ISIS?

GABBARD: You're strengthening them because you are by pouring dollars, resources and effort into this mission of overthrowing the Syrian government of Assad, you are working directly in concert with and helping ISIS, al Nusra, al Qaeda, these Islamic extremist groups who are trying to over throw the Assad government, the Syrian government of Assad, so they can take over all of Syria, so that they can continue to perpetrate the horrific activities that they have been.

CUOMO: You're splitting with the party. You're splitting with your president. What are they saying to you?

GABBARD: I serve the American people. I serve the people of Hawaii and it is my duty and responsibility to make sure that we do not.

I'm a service member. I'm a veteran. And I hear from so many of my fellow soldiers and those who I've served with how concerned they are that we repeat these same mistakes of the past. We have so much at stake here that extends far beyond politics, partisan and otherwise. And that's why it's so important for us as a country and the threat that it poses to us and the world that we defeat our enemy and focus all of our resources in doing that and not get distracted once again by these regime change, nation-building missions.

CUOMO: Well, it would be an interesting political play to see how this comes out.

Congresswoman Gabbard, as always, I thank you for your service and thank you for showing the American face here in a time of need for the French people.

GABBARD: Thank you very much. Good to be here.

CUOMO: I have news that will be interest to you as well. We are getting information U.S. Special Forces are now involved in Mali helping with rescue and extraction there. We're going to take a break.

When we come back, we'll give you the latest developments of an ongoing terror siege in Mali.

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