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Mali Hotel Attack; Paris Terror Attacks: Stadium Bombing Survivor Speaks. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired November 20, 2015 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[08:30:28] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: CNN has just confirmed that U.S. special forces are now assisting in rescue efforts to free dozens of hostages from a hotel under siege in Mali's capital. At least three people are dead. Gunmen stormed a Radisson Hotel there. we are told they were armed with AK-47s and they may have entered with some ease because they were in cars with diplomatic plates.

CNN is on the ground there. We have David McKenzie as well in Johannesburg.

David, what do you know?

DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What we know is, as you say, Chris, the latest is that U.S. assets, military assets, have been removing Americans to safety. Whether they are directly involved in that attack or just Americans in Mali, it's unclear at this time. But certainly it does ratchet up the tension here. There's been around 80 people released, according to state TV, from that hostage drama that's unfolding in the capital of Mali in recent hours.

Two, perhaps three gunmen stormed the hotel. They were in cars with diplomatic plates or diplomatic cars of some kind. They were using Kalashnikovs, according to U.N. spokesman, firing their way into the hotel and then corralling guests and staff. There might be at least 100 people still there. We don't know exactly how many. But many different nationalities are represented, French, Belgium. Chinese, India, it seems American as well according to our reporting from the ground. And these special forces from Mali involved, as well as a team of 10 specialist, paratroopers on the way from Paris announced by the French government.

Chris.

CUOMO: All right, David, we're getting other information here from Reuters. A statement from the Radisson hotel that right now 124 staff and guests, combined obviously, mostly guests, still inside. So this is very much an active situation.

We're hearing that special forces for the U.S. are involved, as well as U.N. troops. And also inside the hotel - yes, Mali may seem a world away from wherever you are, but there are Turkish people in there, French people in there, American people in there. So this is relevant on many different levels.

Let's bring back Melissa Bell. She's the international affairs editor for France24, covered Mali extensively.

Thank you for being with us again.

Let's talk about the relevance of this place. You've called it a country divided now. Very much a home base for multiple terror groups and, of course, a conduit for movement around North Africa, which is a very active.

MELISSA BELL, INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS EDITOR, FRANCE24: And this is why the French president chose to get involved. You'll remember that at the beginning of 2013, he launched this counterattack because these Islamist groups, and we don't know which is involved today, there are two main ones in northern Mali. They've been operating since about 2012.

Al Sardin (ph), which was allied to al Qaeda and the Islamic Maghreb (ph), also the other group is the Mujau (ph), which is the locally based Islamist/jihadist network. Those two groups sort of came in on the back of the (INAUDIBLE) rebellion that had been going on in the north of the country for years. Swept down in the wake of the - the topping of Gaddafi in Libya. Better armed, better manned to southern Mali. And it was as they were about to cross that sort of, not quite a border, but there is a definite divide between the huge northern part of Mali that the (INAUDIBLE) would like for themselves and the southern part of Mali. And it was as they approached that sort of border between the two that the French decided to get involved.

And the reason that Francois Hollande gave as a justification is that you could not allow a territorial space in that part of the world for an Islamism group. So this is very much behind the thinking of the French intervention, which continues, of course, to this day as the French try to help Mali forces to controlled those vast sways of northern Mali. And it is a huge part of the - a huge part of the country.

CUOMO: And also further informs a response to what happened here in Paris. That, you know, the timing probably not a coincide. The French had heavy influence there in fighting against terror, as you say. They're there now as well. They just sent an tactical team down to help with this. And also you have in play this perverse competition among terror groups also. ISIS getting a lot of attention. Others wanting to get attention as well and doing so through the ugliest of human acts.

BELL: Exactly. When I spoke to Malian government sources earlier today, they said that they believed al Sardin was probably behind this. They've been calling for some time for renewed attacks on French targets, as have their allies. There Islamist allies in the south of the country that I was telling you about before. So there's no link established so far with the Islamic state group because we were talking about very different networks. These tend to be allied with al Qaeda and the Islamic Maghreb. But the idea that they might have chosen to take action now, to make themselves - their presence felt now, of course, would probably not be - not be a coincide.

[08:35:17] We don't know who's involved for the time being. The latest information we have from some of those who have escaped the hotel is that they may have been speaking English amongst themselves. Now, if that were the case, it's very unlikely that we're talking about local jihadist.

CUOMO: Right. Although it does make me wonder. You know, that reporting comes from someone who exited the hotel through Reuters. Now that we know that special ops are there from the U.S., there is a chance that what she may have heard was part of the rescue operation ongoing as well. So we'll kind of move that to the side. You're right, we have reported it. It came out of my mouth. But the context of it we're not exactly sure of.

And also I guess there's a point to be made that who they are is not really relevant. What they are is clear, which is they are an extension of this terrorist threat that we've been seeing here. The question is now, how quickly will it end? And there is a key operational value there to point out for people. The Bataclan here, one of the points of analysis is there was time in terms of coming in for the S.W.A.T. folks to figure out what to do. The new thinking is, whether they're called hostages or not, there can be no delay. That you do not negotiate. You go in and you take action. That happened here. It may well have made a difference.

BELL: Because we're not talking about classic hostage situations. This is not what these people do. And in the Bataclan it was very clear. As soon as French special forces realized that it was a massacre that was being prepared rather than a typical hostage situations, as you were saying earlier, you can negotiate with hostages mostly. You can't negotiate with these kinds of terrorists because their idea is not to hold people. They don't have any particular claims, apart from causing maximum damage and maximum numbers of casualties. So, of course, it changes completely. The speed with which an assault will be given, the speed with which force wills intervene to try and bring this thing to an end. So as you say, it happened very quickly, of course, in this Radisson blue (ph) hotel. Fairly successfully since so many people have been freed, but still you were just saying, 120 people still inside.

CUOMO: A lot of people. The threat is very, very real. The numbers are very frightening.

Melissa Bell, thank you very much for joining us.

We'll take a quick break. One week since the Paris attacks. The world has changed so much in terms of addressing terror. We're going to talk about the threat that is expanding. As their footprint moves, the awareness must as well. What will the response be and how will it change your life, next.

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[08:41:21] CUOMO: The world seems like it may be finally uniting in the fight against terror. France certainly intensifying air strikes against ISIS targets in Syria after these Paris attacks. But likely not enough to take out ISIS by itself.

So, what will happen? What is this? Is it the next phase? Aaron David Miller joins us, friend of show, vice president for New Initiatives, and a distinguished scholar at the Woodrow Wilson International Center.

Mr. Miller, you hear people saying this is what we needed, this is the phase. Now it will be over and over soon. And you say?

AARON DAVID MILLER, V.P. FOR NEW INITIATIVES, WOODROW WILSON INTL. CENTER: I say it's the long war, which is hardly an original phrase, Chris. But you really have to ask yourself the question, is - is the carnage in Paris a transformational act or is it just another cruel and horrific twist in the long war? We have to try to make it into a transformation and to mobilize the international community and our regional allies on many different fronts. I just think, though, if you look - if you look at this across the arc, you see several factors which frankly are going to make the long war very difficult to translate into the short war.

First of all you've got time. I mean we're 14 years after 9/11. And while we've done a pretty good job dismantling al Qaeda central, it spawned any number of derivatives, perhaps including those who took responsibly this morning in Mali. You've got Korissan (ph), you've got the Islamic State, you have AQAP, al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. That's number one.

Number two, the underlying reason that these transnational group are allowed to act and enabled to act is because you have empty spaces which are either not governed or badly governed. And at the moment, the Middle East, Libya, Yemen, Iraq, Syria are providing ample arenas for these groups to seek sanctuary and to recruit.

And then finally, which I think is the most important thing because Michael Jackson was right in his song "Man in the Mirror." If you want to make a change in your life, you've got to look in the mirror first. And the world of Islam has some serious introspection to do because you've got a disturbing large minority of Muslims who are prepared for any number of reasons to participate in this global jihad and without some measure of reform or reformation. The majority standing up to offer a reasonable alternative to the viciousness of the Islamic State and other groups' philosophies. I'm not sure even with military power, security preemption, all of this, how you eventually create a more stable and peaceful region. So, you know, I'm a follower of Reinhold Niebuhr, proximate solutions to insoluble problems. If we could do that here, we'd be way ahead of the game.

CUOMO: Well, despite your eloquent marriage of Michael Jackson and Niebuhr the way you just did, you are making somewhat of an argument that many want to ignore certainly in the United States, which is, you need to give these people something better, this radical extremist, Islamist growing faction something better where they live or you will not win the long war. Many people don't want to hear that. That there is no excuse, there is no justification, there is no victimization of anyone once they decide to choose terror. How do you marry the two principles and reconcile a solution? [08:44:56] MILLER: You know, I - I'm not here to justify for create

the impression that what I'm describing are somehow incentives for those who do violence. I'm describing a long-term reality which will continue to prevail. I mean Europe, you have 1.4 billion Muslims in the world, 20 million in Europe. A fifth of those -- a fifth of those -- recruits to ISIS are European Muslims. And they are European Muslims not first generation primarily in places like Spain and Italy, but second and third generation.

So clearly there is a significant problem with the interaction between European governments, civil society and aggrieved alienated individuals, many of whom believe they lead purposeless lives, and they are being manipulated. The killers, guys who are doing the killing may not be ideologues, but they are certainly being motivated, sent, and inspired by a cadre of jihadis who actually are. So, I mean, in a way you are making my point, Chris, and if it is difficult in Europe, imagine how difficult it is going to be in places like Iraq and Syria where there are tensions, bad governance, in essence no governance.

CUOMO: Yes. Understood. As contemptible as the action is, you must look at the motivation and address that as well. Aaron David Miller, as always, thank you, sir.

MILLER: Chris, take care.

CUOMO: Let's get back to New York. Yes, he did marry Niebuhr and Michael Jackson. He is always surprising.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: And that's why we love him. His intelligence, his heart and also his worldly knowledge. Chris, we appreciate it so much, especially at times like this.

Well, as Chris knows all too well, the trauma is readily evident on the faces of people who survived that terror attack in Paris. A conversation with a survivor now on how he's helping his son. We'll have that next.

A programming note for you first, though. A groundbreaking CNN film about sexual assault on campus and the failure to address the problem. "The Hunting Ground" airs Sunday night 8:00 Eastern only on CNN.

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[08:50:40] CUOMO: It was just a week ago that we had the Paris attacks. Imagine being face to face with somebody holding an AK-47, a Kalashnikov, a suicide vest. We introduce you to a man named Bley Mokono. He knew about this. He rubbed shoulders with someone who then tried to kill him.

To hear him discuss how he made it through that, what he observed in his attacker and what he feels now wasn't just life-changing, but it was eye-opening. Here is the second part of our interview.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CUOMO: You are trying to figure out whether you should have done

something more. But you also have to figure out why you lived and what your purpose is to be here now because you lived for a reason. You are supposed to be here, otherwise you wouldn't be. What do you think the answer is to that?

BLEY BILAL MOKONO, STADIUM SURVIVOR (through translator): I think that life always gives you the answer. It is always possible to solve things by dialogue and by example. By this, one can find a solution to problems.

CUOMO: What did you tell your son to make his head okay with what he lived for? What did you explain to him about what happened and what he needs to know?

MOKONO: My son, his room is the United States. We decorated the room of my son, Ryan, as if he were in Los Angeles. Los Angeles, the Statue of Liberty, etc. We basically decorated as if it is a tour of the U.S. in his room. So what I explained to my son when we went into his room, this room that he wanted to be an American room, we said to him, you did not live through 9/11, but you did live through the terrorist attack here in France. And your role, my son, is to fight against the symbols of inequality and to fight against this scourge, against these people, and to win over them.

He understands what has happened. He cried. He was traumatized by the people he saw lying on the ground. But he understands that the education we have given him is to love others, not to hate others. So he has understood that he needs others' love.

CUOMO: Seeing all the people, all the destruction, and not knowing where your son was, was that the hardest part?

MOKONO: That was very painful. Extremely hard to bear. My heart was pounding. The longer I couldn't find him, the harder it beat. I had tears in my eye, I was very anxious. I was crying, I was not in a good place. I was angry.

CUOMO: How often do you think to yourself, I wish I had grabbed him, I wish I had grabbed that arm, even though who knows what would have happened? How often do you think that?

MOKONO: Yes, every night since Friday night. I have trouble sleeping. I wonder if I could have done things differently. I have a lot of regrets, a lot of regrets about not intervening because since Friday night I see mothers crying, brothers and sisters crying. I cried at the hospital because I thought to myself, you did not act or only acted in a very small way. Thank God there was less destruction than there could have been at the Stade de France. And that made me feel better. It was a recompense. It helped me to say it could have been so much worse in terms of destruction.

CUOMO: All of these things make no sense. But sometimes you have to take good luck where you find it. And even though it was unlucky to be there that night, you survived. You have your life, you have your son. And that's good luck. And I wish you good luck going forward. MOKONO: Yes, and I do accept this. I accept the luck that I have

enjoyed. I have a lucky star over my head. My life has been allowed to continue. So it will continue, but I will ramp up what I do. When I have recovered, the first decision I will make is to continue this work. In fact, why not make this a vocation? I will now start to raise the awareness of young people about these issues and try to spread the message about addressing the fact that whenever there is an act of war or barbarity somewhere, we associate this with Muslims. We must learn to distinguish. People have the right to practice their faith, their religion, without people saying your religion made these people do it.

[08:54:57] A friend called me yesterday and told me, don't be angry at yourself. You are not responsible. I didn't feel like talking to anyone at the time. He said, you are not responsible. You saved a women and this is important. You saved your son and that is important. He was telling me, too, that a Muslim, he was finding that today his bosses at the company where he works were trying to fire him. They were accusing him of being a fundamentalist because they now believe he is, although he is not. And the first thing I told him was that now any situation in France or in the world where you have a company boss trying to fire someone because they are practicing their religion, be it Catholicism, the Muslim faith, or Buddhism, I will take these people on because that is now my own personal fight, which is to never stop denouncing this type of behavior and action.

(speaking in English) Thank you very much.

CUOMO: Thank you. I'm glad that you're well. I'm glad your son is well and I wish you good luck in your fight.

MOKONO (through translator): Can I give you hug?

CUOMO: Oh, of course you can. I don't want to hurt your arm.

MOKONO (speaking in English): Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: What an amazing guy. He regrets that he wasn't able to give his life to save others in the face of a man who wanted to take his life to hurt others. And he comes out of a situation when so many would be so bitter, redoubling his efforts to try to teach peace. He almost lost his son. He almost lost his life. And yet he comes out with that kind of advice for the rest of us. He's a beautiful guy and we wish him well. And there are many like him here in Paris.

We're going take a quick break. When we come back, we have new details about an ongoing siege in Mali and developments here as well. So there's going to be a special edition of "NEWSROOM" with Anderson Cooper right after the break. Stay with CNN.

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