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Cameron to Make Case for U.K. Airstrikes in Syria; Police Looking for More Details about Dead Terrorist; Obama: U.S. 'Will Not Relent' in Fight Against ISIS; Trump: Syrian Refugees Could be 'Great Trojan Horse'. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired November 23, 2015 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY, with Chris Cuomo, Alisyn Camerota, and Michaela Pereira.

[07:00:09] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to NEW DAY, everyone. We want to welcome our viewers around the world. British Prime Minister David Cameron will make his case to parliament this week for the U.K. to join the airstrikes against ISIS in Syria, following an increase in defense spending approaching $200 billion.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Big meeting today between Cameron and the French president in Paris, and then the French president will come to meet with President Obama in Washington tomorrow.

All of this is about making a joint effort and stepping up the war against ISIS, not with the U.S., France, and the U.K. alone, but also major European cities all coming together. As we see what's happening in Brussels right now, unprecedented precautions in place to prevent further bloodshed in the wake of the Paris attacks.

CNN has all angles of the global war on terror covered this morning. Let's start with senior international correspondent Clarissa Ward in Paris -- Clarissa.

CLARISSA WARD, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Chris.

Well, we saw the French president, Francois Hollande, go along with the British prime minister, David Cameron, to the scene of some of the worst violence in those Paris attacks. They laid flowers at the Bataclan theater.

And afterwards, President Hollande outlined three crucial areas that he thinks needs to be improved upon in order to prevent these types of attacks from happening again.

No. 1, he said that Europe's borders need to be strengthened. We know that some of these men had spent time in Syria, some of these attackers. They were able to get back into central Europe undetected, because they weren't flying directly into France. They were flying into other countries and making their way by land into France.

No. 2, he wants to see a real crackdown on weapons trafficking within Europe. Where did they get those heavy weapons, those AK-47s? And No. 3, he wants to try to bolster support for intensified

airstrikes on ISIS inside Syria and Iraq. As you mentioned, British Prime Minister David Cameron expected to take that to Parliament yet again. He's been pushing for that for quite some time.

Now, here in France, authorities have released a photograph of this man. Now take a look. They believe this is one of the attackers who blew herself up outside the stadium. He's believed to have traveled along that refugee route, alongside another one of the attackers who was traveling on what was believed to be a fake Syrian passport.

French authorities now still trying to identify this man. So far, only four of the eight attackers have been identified.

And France is still very much on high alert. Schools here, children having their bags checked as they arrived at school, parents being told, don't loiter when you're collecting your children or dropping them off at school. And France even extending this ban on all public assemblies, all demonstrations until the end of the month now -- Michaela.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Clarissa, thanks for letting us know what the situation is on the ground there in Paris.

Meanwhile, in Brussels, it remains under the highest terror alert amid warnings of an imminent threat. Several people rounded up in a series of anti-terror raids, as the international manhunt for that eighth Paris attacker intensifies.

CNN's senior international correspondent, Frederick Pleitgen, is live in Brussels with the latest for us, Fred?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Michaela, there were some major anti-terror raids that have been going on, not just in the Brussels area but also in other areas here in Belgium, within the past 24 hours. And originally, we'd heard that 16 people had been detained in those raids. Now it appears as though the federal prosecutor here has put that number up to five additional being detained. So we are 21 at this point in time.

However, the main person that they've been looking for, Saleh Abdeslam, who is, of course, implicated in the attacks that happened in Paris last Friday, is the man that everybody is looking for here in Belgium. He apparently is not among those who was arrested so far.

Meanwhile, as you said, the city remains in a state of lockdown. The subway system isn't working. The schools are closed. Many shops are closed, as well. And when you look at the scene here in central Brussels, there are a lot fewer people. It's almost eerily calm here.

Keep in mind, this is a Monday sort of early afternoon at this point in time. This is not only the capital of Belgium, but in my ways, of course, also the administrative capital of Europe. And instead of many people pouring in here, as would normally happen, what you have is you have soldiers on the street. You have a lot of police on the street. You have armored vehicles on the street, trying to make sure that nothing happens.

As that terror alert level IV, the highest that this country has, which warns of an imminent threat, remains in place here, it's unclear at this point in time how long that imminent threat level is going to stay in place, Chris.

CUOMO: It seems the more that they learn, the more they realize they cannot control there.

Fred Pleitgen, thank you very much.

So also, President Obama meeting tomorrow with French President Hollande to talk about what this bigger plan will be to destroy ISIS. And he is urging Americans not to overreact to the terror threat here at home.

CNN senior Washington correspondent Joe Johns at the White House this morning.

Tough balance. This is the most important war there is, but don't be too scared.

[07:05:03] JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: I think it is a tough balance. The president arriving back here at the White House, a little after midnight, after that long trip to Turkey, the Philippines, and Malaysia.

While he was on the road, he was subjected to some sharp criticism on Capitol Hill from some Republicans and even some Democrats about the tone he took in addressing the attacks in his last appearance in Kuala Lumpur, trying to bring it all together, the various threads in this talk of terrorism, including that issue of Syrian refugees and whether they should be allowed into the United States. The president saying, fear is the thing that Americans should fight. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They're a bunch of killers with good social media. The most powerful tool we have to fight ISIL is to say that we're not afraid.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNS: The president will dive back into the anti-terror talk on Tuesday, with a visit from French President Hollande here at the White House. Also, apparently, a meeting with reporters after that. Then Hollande will actually move on to Russia, to sit down with Putin and talk to him. Apparently, the very same issues. It will be a long week of terror talk.

Back to you.

CAMEROTA: It sure will, Joe. Thanks so much for that.

So for more analysis, let's bring in now our CNN terrorism analyst, Paul Cruickshank, and CNN national security analyst, Julia Kayyem. She's also former assistant secretary of the Department of Homeland Security. It's great to have both of you on hand this morning, because a lot's happening.

What's going on in Belgium, Paul, is just incredible. Twenty-one people arrested in Belgium, which feels reactive, because why didn't they arrest them before last Friday? But what do you see about what Paul's just reported about what's going on in Belgium -- I mean, about what Fred has?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: There is unprecedented concern in Belgium from authorities right now. They're shaking the tree hard. The concern is both about Saleh Abdeslam, that he's back in Brussels, back in Belgium, but also about the wider logistical support network, which is thought, perhaps, maybe to be harboring him, and also supporting the Paris attackers.

The worry is there's another attack team out there, that they have explosives, that they have weapons. Belgian police don't have a handle on where these guys are, and that's why they're shaking the tree so hard. No weapons or explosives found in those raids overnight, though.

CAMEROTA: Because, Juliette, schools closed today. On Monday, the subway system shut down. This can't just be about the so-called eighth attacker still on the loose there.

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, they say it's not. They said it was imminent, but I have to say, now we're a couple days past imminent. And I don't how this is sustainable for this city or any European city.

What are the criteria for opening Belgium back up, if he is not found within the next 8 to 10 hours? This is going to be a challenge for all urban cities, throughout the world, who face terrorism. And at some stage, Belgium has to stay, "Well, the criteria is going to be 'X,' 'Y,' and 'Z,' but we have to get back to normal." It's not unique to Belgium, but certainly, this is the most draconian case we've ever seen.

CAMEROTA: So Paul, the imminent threat, what do you think that is? I mean, they must know that something was planned for Belgium.

There is some intelligence that they've received, either through these interrogations, some of these people they've arrested, related to the Paris attacks or some other stream of intelligence which suggests to them an imminent threat, particularly to the capital.

Brussels, they're extremely concerned about this. That's why the city is essentially on lockdown. People are essentially being told to stay home. They're worried that there's another attack team out there, perhaps that have trained in Syria, come back to Belgium. We've seen over a hundred Belgium extremists come back to Belgium from Syria, trained killers, that they haven't got a good handle on. And that's why you have these extraordinary measures.

The Belgian authorities are saying that these security measures are going to stay in place as long as is necessary. I don't think anybody can blame them after what we saw play out in Paris. These are exceptional and extraordinary times.

CAMEROTA: But Juliette, people should be concerned in Belgium, and officials should be concerned in Belgium, with everything we've learned since the Paris attacks, everything that Paul just said, a hundred extremists and killers that have come back. We know that Belgium is a hotbed. They should -- I mean, it's almost surprising that they haven't done something this draconian before last Friday.

KAYYEM: Well, absolutely, and second-guessing what they're doing right now is not going to solve the problem, that they have a persistent threat in their city and country from these Syrian fighters.

Even if they disrupt one cell here, as Paul was saying, there might be multiple ones. And so these draconian responses might have been in response to a specific intelligence stream that told them a threat was imminent.

But the idea that you can keep this city under lockdown until some threat, some imminent threat is minimized sort of, I think, begs the question, when is that going to be?

[07:10:10] It may be a particular arrest, but we're not there yet. They said yesterday they did not get the people they were looking for. This is a challenge for all European cities, let alone American ones. The runway for these guys to go get radicalized, get trained, and launch an attack appears to be two weeks now, right?

Compare this to the days of al Qaeda when you had a decade to figure out what was going on. So I recognize that the threat is there. It's just that immanency, if we say that it's imminent and shut down cities all the time, you're going to have a very, you know -- very sort of unworkable response to the terror threat that we're now facing.

CAMEROTA: Paul, I know you have some new reporting on the Paris attacks and the investigation and the so-called ringleader or the ringleader's superior. What have you learned?

CRUICKSHANK: Well, that European security officials believe that the senior ringleader behind this plot was Fabien Clain, who is a senior French fighter in ISIS. He's the guy that claimed responsibility in an audio tape the day after the attacks, and he spoke of an attack that was meant to have taken place in the 18th Arrondissement of Paris, but that attack actually never took place, and investigators believe that Saleh Abdeslam may have actually aborted a plan to launch an attack there.

But the fact that Fabien Clain was talking about meticulously selected targets and an attack on the 18th Arrondissement, which never happened, suggested that he had foreknowledge of this plan, because otherwise, he would have just reacted to media attacks and he wouldn't have talked about the 18th Arrondissement.

But all this pointing to the fact that Fabien Clain may have been the senior ringleader in this attack, someone who's still in Raqqah, in Syria, in a senior position in the ISIS hierarchy, who is still plotting to send more waves of Belgium and French and European ISIS recruits back to launch a rolling series of attacks. It's believed that he was working in tandem with Abdelhamid Abaaoud, the junior ringleader of the plot, who was sent over to France with the plotters.

CAMEROTA: And Juliette, last, this just speaks -- everything that Paul has just reported speaks to the notion that you can't ever celebrate too much that one ringleader has been, you know, eliminated or arrested, because the ladder just keeps going up.

KAYYEM: That's right. And I think this is the world we live in, it is scary. I recognize that, and our response has to be proportionate to this persistent fear.

Every city is going to face at some stage what Belgium is facing right now. And to close it down for an indefinite period has not only an economic impact, which we're hearing about already, but the psychological impact that a single individual can close down an entire city.

Look, I'm from Boston. We closed down a city for ten hours during the hunt for the younger Tsarnaev brother. I recognize that during a hunt, we sometimes need to do that. But we're heading into day three, and it's unsustainable, economically, but also, I think, psychologically, for the Europeans.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Paul and Juliette, thanks so much for your expertise. Great to have you both on this morning.

Let's get over to Michaela.

PEREIRA: All right. Secretary of State John Kerry is looking to tackle major issues on a three-day trip to the Middle East. Kerry is in Abu Dhabi today to meet with top officials from the United Arab Emirates.

The goal: to build a coalition to lead peace talks to try and end the civil war in Syria. Secretary Kerry will then travel to Israel and the Palestinian territories, where he'll continue the ongoing effort to stop the bloodshed in Jerusalem and the West Bank.

CUOMO: Eight people are dead and eight others injured after a suicide bombing at a military checkpoint in Nigeria. It happened Sunday. The victims were mostly women and children undergoing security careening. They had been displaced from their homes by the terror group Boko Haram. There's no claim of responsibility yet for this attack.

CAMEROTA: An historic election in Argentina. The mayor of Buenos Aires emerging as the winner in that country's first ever presidential run-off. He beat the current president's hand-picked successor by about three percentage points. This election could mark a shift to the right in Argentina. The new leader has promised to make changes to the nation's economy.

Indianapolis police have arrested an 18-year-old suspect in the home invasion killing of a pastor's pregnant wife. Police say Larry Taylor faces a preliminarily charge of murder in the death of Amanda Blackburn. Davey Blackburn discovered his wife's body when he returned from the gym on November 10. Their 1-year-old son was in the home at the time. Fortunately, he was unarmed.

CUOMO: Syrian refugees, the Obama administration says that they'll be thoroughly vetted. That's what the U.N. says, as well, but Donald Trump and other GOP presidential hopefuls are dead set against allowing Syrian refugees to settle in the U.S. And you know what? You agree. The polls are clear. So we're going to take a look at what the fact is versus the fear on NEW DAY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:19:03] CUOMO: Welcome back to NEW DAY. Republican presidential candidates are ramping up their rhetoric against letting Syrian refugees into the United States. Front-runner Donald Trump insists there should even be a refugee database. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We have no idea who these people are. When the Syrian refugees are going to start pouring into this country, we don't know if they're ISIS. We don't know if it's a Trojan horse, and I definitely want a database and other checks and balances.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: The fear is real. Is it supported by the facts? Now, as we start this, I want to show you this picture that we have up behind our guest. CNN's global economic analyst, Rana Foroohar, also the assistant managing editor at "TIME" magazine.

This is the reality in Syria. Look at the buildings. Look where they live. Look at the masses of people, OK? That's the picture. You can see lots of things in here. You can see desperation. You can see a lot of young warrior-age men that we're very afraid of right now.

So the crisis is clear. The question is what, if anything, is to be done about it here. The main concern of fact versus fiction, when we go through this is, where are they? OK, here's where refugees have been taken.

Rana, how long have we been accepting refugees into this country?

RANA FOROOHAR, CNN ASSISTANT MANAGING EDITOR, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Well, many years. I mean, just since 9/11, there's been 785,000 refugees brought in. In many different states, 136 different states, 138 deferent cities. So all over the country, for some time, now.

CUOMO: Since 9/11.

FOROOHAR: Since 9/11.

CUOMO: Almost 800,000. FOROOHAR: That's right.

CUOMO: The number of arrests literally, statistically, impossible to quantify. Maybe two or three.

FOROOHAR: Twelve is the official -- 12 have been either arrested or sent out of the country. But that's a fragment of 1 percent.

CUOMO: And not all on terror charges?

FOROOHAR: Not all on terror charges. The State Department doesn't give out that information.

CUOMO: These are these states now that don't want Syrian refugees here. You see the numbers there, but the numbers, this red shading belies a consensus. The polls show it. The poll shows that 50 plus percent say, don't let them in.

FOROOHAR: Right.

CUOMO: And why? Well, look at this. Will the Syrian refugee carry out an attack on the U.S.? That's the core fear.

FOROOHAR: Very striking.

CUOMO: Let's call it 50 percent.

FOROOHAR: Yes. No, it's incredible. National -- you know, half of the population thinks that there's going to be a terror attack if we let these folks in.

CUOMO: Now again, the facts: 785. That's what Rana just told you. Right? About a dozen arrested or removed. So what does this -- this means that it is hard to make the case to keep them out based on what they've done here.

FOROOHAR: That's right. Absolutely.

CUOMO: But what about the fear of the unknown?

FOROOHAR: Well, you know, there's always the fear of the unknown, but all the research about refugees not just in the U.S., but overseas, as well, shows that there's a huge economic impact. A lot of this depends on how they're settled. If they get settled well or they're vetted properly. I mean, it's a process, and the process has to be done right for it the to work.

CUOMO: All right. So you're dazzling me with what you know, in terms of your statistics and syllogies (ph). But I say this: one, so you're just adding another "if." If they're not established well or resettled well, that's another problem.

And Syria, this is the hotbed of war going on at its most destabilized. I look at that picture behind you, and I see lots of people who are desperate and angry. And now they may be desperate and angry at me, and that is enough for me to keep them out. How do you combat that with your statistics?

FOROOHAR: Well, you know, I think, again, you just have to look at the facts. What has happened since 9/11? We have seen a lot of terror in a lot of places. But we have let in, as you say, almost 800,000 people.

We've had a tiny fraction of that have any kind of a problem. Most of these people are coming, because they want something better. They want to get out of their country. And as folks like Hillary Clinton have said, it would be really a cruel irony if they're trying to leave a war-torn place. They can't be reestablished in a better country and make a better life for themselves. That would be a sad thing.

CUOMO: Stay. Madam Economist, find us a no-fly zone there in Syria where they want to be. That's their home. And keep them there. No reason for them to come here or anywhere else.

FOROOHAR: Well, you know, that's one argument to be made. But the fact is that Syria is not going to get better anytime soon. You know, these people are really struggling. And, you know, if you look at the economic impact on the positive side of migrants throughout history, countries that take them in tend to do better. I mean, one of the reasons that we think the U.S. does better economically than Europe is that we are a country of immigrants. We have always let migrants in.

CUOMO: That's where this comes in. Dianne Feinstein...

FOROOHAR: Right.

CUOMO: ... and Representative flake, they want to ban the visa waiver. They want to make changes to it.

FOROOHAR: They do.

CUOMO: You have concerns about this from an economic perspective.

FOROOHAR: I do. Because, you know, the travel and tourism industry has already been pushing back on this. Folks that come in on the visa waiver program make up about 60 percent of the tourists in the U.S. They represent $200 billion of economic impact. They support a million U.S. jobs. So that's a lot of money. You know, travel is a $1 trillion industry. It's one of the most important industries in the U.S.

CUOMO: But I can't spend my money if I'm dead. And now what we saw in Paris, what we see going on in Belgium, what we hear about these arrests in Turkey. They are using -- what is the reality of, how are you better off getting into this country if you're a bad person who does bad things? Through the refugee program? Because we heard at least one used it in Paris. We hear about it being used in other countries to sneak through Honduras now, with people in detention.

FOROOHAR: Look, there are many ways for bad people to get into the country. OK? But it's just another statistic to show you how strict the vetting is. President Obama has said that he would like to bring in another 10,000

migrants this year. Only 2,000 are in the process, because it is such a strict process. There's a lot of vetting. They have to be referred by the U.N. high commission. There's a lot of checking that goes on. So, this goal of 10,000, we're not anywhere near it, yet.

CUOMO: Does any other group that comes into this country through immigration receive a vetting that these refugees do?

FOROOHAR: I don't think that they would. I think that, you know, this country, Syria and Iraq right now, you've got to think that they're getting the most strict vetting that's out there.

CUOMO: The answer, according to the State Department, is no. Because of the problems they had with Iraq refugees, and they did have problems. They did have people coming in for the wrong reasons. They weren't properly vetted. They couldn't identify them.

The head of the FBI just made that point. He told me, he said, I can't vet you if you don't exist in the database. That's true. There are other ways to vet you other than the database. They changed the program, and that's why this takes so long. Years.

FOROOHAR: Years, absolutely.

[07:25:02] CUOMO: So from an economic perspective, you don't think you can make the case to keep him out? That this is really about fear. And you're saying that when you look at the statistics, you don't see quantifiable danger and action on the basis to justify it?

FOROOHAR: I don't. I think that when you see that a small fraction of 1 percent of these refugees has, in any kind of a problem, and you look at the huge economic impact, not just from them directly but when we get more foreign direct investment from countries that are on the visa waiver program.

CUOMO: They see them as a mooch. You know, you're going to drain our social services. You're going to drain our education, drain everything.

FOROOHAR: True, but again, there's -- net -- on a net level, immigrants at all ends of the economic spectrum tend to benefit America. They start businesses at a greater rate. It's better for demographics; they have more kids. Hard to make an anti-economic argument.

CUOMO: Well, we get that in the Cuomo family. We're only second generation here.

But I'll tell you what: your numbers aside, you can't factor out fear. People are afraid of the unknown. It only takes one terrorist incident from one of these people, Michaela, to make those who are afraid feel completely justified.

PEREIRA: Fear's a bad motivator, Chris. We know that all too well. All right. The president of France crisscrossing the globe this week

in an effort to build a new international coalition to fight ISIS, but the military and political hurdles are daunting. We're going to take a look at how tough it will be to convince all the key players to come together.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)