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Turkey Shoots Down Russian Plane In Its Airspace; One Arrested in Connection with Paris Terror Attacks; President Hollande to Meet with Obama, Putin This Week; Donald Trump Doubles Down on Comments About Muslims Celebrating 9/11. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired November 24, 2015 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:00:03] BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We know that this incident took place about four hours ago in western Syria just on the Turkish border where, according to Russian officials this SU-24 Russian jet was shot -- rather crashed. The Russians are suggesting that perhaps it was brought down by ground fire, but Turkish officials say that two Turkish F-16s intercepted this plane as it came very close to the -- to Turkish airspace. Turkish officials say it violated the Turkish airspace after being warned ten times not to, and then it was shot down.

Now we don't know the fate of the two pilots. We've seen video of what appear to be two parachutes near the plane where the plane went down. There are suggestions by Syrian rebels that one of those pilots was killed and that one has subsequently been captured. There are also reports that Russia has dispatched helicopters to the area to try to retrieve these pilots, but obviously this is a very serious turn of events in an already tense situation. Keeping in mind that Syria is currently a theater of military intervention by Russia, the United States, the Gulf states, Jordan, Iran, Hezbollah, France, and others. So it's a serious development but not altogether one that wasn't anticipated.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Ben, thank you so much for that. Meanwhile, the Kremlin is calling the downing of their fighter jet a very serious incident. For more on the Russian reaction to this breaking story, let's turn to CNN's senior international Matthew Chance, who is live in Moscow. What is the reaction from there?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDNET: Thanks, Michaela. That's right, the Russians are confirming it was indeed a Russian warplane that was taken down by that fire. They say though on a number of different levels they object to the -- dispute the Turkish account.

First of all, they deny this warplane went into Turkish airspace. They say it completely invariably stayed inside Syrian airspace where of course Russia is carrying out air strikes against the opposition groups, rebel groups opposed to Bashar al Assad, the Syrian president. They also deny that this plane was brought down by a surface -- by an air-to-air missile. The Turks say that their F-16 interceptors were scrambled and shot the Russian plane out of the sky. The Russians are saying it was brought down by fire from the ground. And so there are a couple of areas where they are disputing this Turkish account, and so that's got to be clarified in the hours ahead.

Also, the big concern in Russia at the moment is the fate of the pilots. We saw video of the two pilots ejecting out of the Russian aircraft after it was shot down, before the plane smashed into the ground and burst into flames. The Russian defense ministry has confirmed that both of the pilots ejected. But no one knows where they are at this point. There are lots of reports circulating about their medical condition, their whereabouts, but that's the big concern of the Russians, to get those pilots back into their custody.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: And obviously there are a lot of big political implications to this. Thank you very much for the reporting.

Remember, there was a glimmer of hope that Russia could join the coalition on equal terms and hopefully help take out ISIS. What will happen now certainly a big part of the discussion when French President Hollande and President Obama meet later this morning. For that, we have White House correspondent Michelle Kosinski live with the very latest. The agenda just changed.

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Hi Chris. Right, I mean, the stakes are so high for everyone involved. And this Hollande trip is about stepping up the effort against ISIS. We saw him just meet with the British Prime Minister in fact yesterday who now says that he will again ask parliament to begin air strikes over Syria. But we'll see what happens in light of what's going on there right now.

As for this visit to the U.S., the White House is framing this as France wanting to continue to ramp up its activity against ISIS. The U.S. plans to continue its support of that mission, to back up what France is doing and to contribute to that in every way possible. But what makes this trip even more interesting is that Hollande this week, in fact right after this stop, will go to Russia and meet with Russian President Vladimir Putin. The Russians are framing this as a first step in building a coalition against ISIS. Well, a coalition already exists, led by the U.S., and it's even been suggested that Putin might try to convince France to lift some of the sanctions against it for what's going on in Ukraine in exchange for Russia contributing more to ISIS. But the White House says this is not a competition. The sanctions will remain in place until Russia changes its behavior in Ukraine.

Also right now the State Department has issued a global alert because of the possibility of terror attacks that the State Department believes will continue as ISIS fighters continue to return to the countries they came from the battlefield. Alisyn?

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: OK Michelle, very interesting to see what happens today in that building behind you.

[06:05:00]

Now to breaking details in the Paris investigation. U.S. intelligence suggests the ISIS terrorists conducted surveillance on some of their targets and showed signs of military-style training. CNN's senior international correspondent Clarissa Ward is live in Paris for us with all of the latest. Good morning, Clarissa.

CLARISSA WARD, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Alisyn. So we're hearing from U.S. intelligence officials that that cell phone that was found in a trash can outside of the Bataclan theater allegedly dropped by one of the attackers actually had a map on it of the Bataclan theater, of the venue itself. This indicating to U.S. intelligence officials that these guys had done their homework, that they had carried out surveillance on these targets. And they said when you look at the full picture, the multiple locations, the discipline that these men clearly showed in carrying out these attacks, they said it had, quote, "indications of tactical planning and military-style training."

Now the other big story that we're tracking from here is that, last night, French officials found a suicide vest in a trash can in the Paris suburb of Malrouge (ph). According to BFM TV, which is our affiliate, this suicide vest contained TATP, that's that very crude explosive that was used in all of the vests in the attacks, and it also contained metal bolts -- and reportedly that's exactly where the eighth attacker is still on the loose, Salah Abdeslam, had been using his cell phone just hours after the attack. Michaela?

PEREIRA: Significant developments. Clarissa, thank you so much for that.

In the meantime, in Belgium one man has been charged in connection with those Paris attacks after a series of raids. Brussels remains at its highest alert level over concerns of further attacks. CNN's senior international Frederik Pleitgen is live there in Brussels for us. Good morning.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SNEIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Michaela, and it's going to remain at that highest alert level for at least until next Monday. However, what the Belgian authorities are going to start doing is, they say, at least come tomorrow, they're going to start opening the subway system again and they're also going to start opening schools again at least gradually.

I want to show you what's going on here today. As you can see, there's still a lot of military activity here on the ground in Brussels. Public life still very much grind to a halt. Some people are out. Not very many simply because it's so difficult for people to get to work, to get back, and of course quite frankly because they are all so afraid of the threat that of course is still in place.

Meanwhile, you mentioned that investigation. And the Belgian authorities have said that in the past 24 hours or so, they have taken into custody about 21 people. 17 of them have been released after that. However, one man remains in custody and has been charged with offenses for terrorism and also relating directly to the Paris attacks. And so, therefore, Belgian authorities are still looking for people who could be behind this, still looking for Salah Abdeslam, the man who is being sought all over Europe, and of course a possible network that might be plotting further attacks that's causing the security measures that you're seeing here. Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK, Fred, thanks so much. We'll check back in with you throughout the program.

Joining us to talk about all of this is our CNN military analyst, retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, and counterterrorism expert and senior fellow with the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, Daveed Gartenstein-Ross. Gentlemen, thanks so much for being here.

General, I want to start with you. Let's talk about this Russian warplane being shot down. Why would Turkey take this action?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, because it more than likely flew into Turkish airspace. And, Alisyn, remember, this is about the third time Turkey has warned Russian flights to stay out of their airspace.

Turkey had -- What we know right now is that Turkey has the ability certainly with F-16s, which they claim shot down the fighter when it entered their airspace. They have done that in the past against a Syrian airliner or airplane that flew into their airspace. We also know the pilots seemed to have ejected from the video that's being shown by Russian TV.

Russia has already claimed that it was not in Turkish airspace. Russia also claims it was shot down by a land artillery piece, which seems a little bit ludicrous right now. But we know that there have been incursions into the Turkish airspace. Turkey has warned several times not to do it. And truthfully this is a premonition we all have had based on the fact that Russia as crossed over international borders on several occasions and almost thumbed their nose at the Turks.

CAMEROTA: But General, hadn't Turkey said the coalition fighting ISIS could use their airspace?

HERTLING: Not yet. They haven't given that permission to Russia. And, in fact, they warned Russia multiple times to stay out of their airspace. What actually compounds this issue, Alisyn, is the fact that Turkey obviously is a NATO country as well. And it seems like Russia has ignored boundaries in flying over Northern Syria, attacking enemies of the Assad regime, and certainly Turkey has not give permission to Russia to enter their airspace.

[06:10:03]

CAMEROTA: Before I get to Daveed, General, what does this mean? What does this mean now?

HERTLING: Yes, this is going to certainly complicate matters especially this week as you have seen President Hollande, and you've reported it, attempting to build a greater coalition against ISIS. Russia has said recently that they are going to fight ISIS although there hasn't been that many indicators that they are attempting to do that. So this is certainly going to complicate matters as the coalition builds, with France joining the bombing campaign over Northern Syria, with potential by Thursday of this week the U.K. sending forces into Syria as well as into Iraq, which they've done already. This is going to really cause some coordination and deconfliction problems if Russia continues to just deconflict as opposed to coordinate their aircraft in Northern Syria.

CAMEROTA: OK, Daveed, let's talk about all of the new developments into the investigation of the Paris attacks. What -- investigators have learned that they believe these attackers conducted prior surveillance on their targets. They found a map of the Bataclan music venue on their cell phone that was discarded. So this means that these restaurants and this music venue, these were not randomly chosen. They were targeted. What does it tell you?

DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS, SENIOR FELLOW, FOUNDATION FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: A few things. Obviously the advanced coordination is something that's coming out with this information. A second thing that it points to, there's been a debate for years about how important is a safe haven to carry out terrorists operations, with some people arguing that it's overblown. But the degree of training that they have and advanced preparation points to the fact that Syria and having that Syrian territory may be very important to carrying out a very devastating attack. Obviously we need to learn a little bit more, but this does point to the kind of preparation they were able to undertake.

CAMEROTA: Daveed, as we speak, Brussels is still on lockdown. The subway system is closed. Schools are closed for yet a second day in a row. What kind of intel must they have in Brussels to go to this length?

GARTENSTEIN-ROSS: It's not clear what kind of intel they have. I mean, the nexus to Brussels is clear enough. Abdelslam -- not Abdelslam, I'm sorry, but Abaaoud, who was the ringleader, had been in Brussels. He was in Brussels back in January of this year before flying to Syria and was part of a cell that was disrupted there. His connections to Molenbeek are very well known.

But one of the things that's very striking about this is the way that you had interlocking cells which were able to get under the radar of authorities. You had the first cell of attackers in Paris. There was a second interlocking cell that was disrupted in the raids that occurred just a few days ago. And then you may have had additional follow-on attacks planned, as information is coming out more. The thing is that authorities really just don't know how big it is, which is striking in terms of the kind of operational security that the attackers were able to undertake.

CAMEROTA: OK, so all of this under the backdrop of President Hollande meeting with President Obama today to talk about next steps against ISIS. Daveed, you study terrorism every day. Day in and day out. What should the next steps be?

GARTENSTEIN-ROSS: That's an excellent question. I mean, going back to the very beginning of the interview and General Hertling, I think part of the challenge that's inherently faced is that you have what could be described as roughly an anti-ISIS coalition. The problem is that various countries are on different sides with respect to the Assad regime. You know, Turkey wants to topple Assad. Russia's there to protect Assad. Which creates this inherent conflict. And to a lot of observers this looks a lot like the beginning of World War I with these various powers with various interests and none of them wants to get into a conflict, but there's a lot of danger given the competing interests that are at play.

The second thing I would say is part of what should be done is what has finally in the past few weeks been part of U.S. strategy, which is actually actively targeting the ISIS oil that's going out to market and really trying to drain their economy much more than previous attempts have done. I think that's a positive move.

And then third thing is just squaring down what the ground force is going to look like with respect to special operations forces, coordination with Kurdish forces and the like. And there also has been, fortunately, some movement in that direction as well.

CAMEROTA: General Hertling, very quickly, what happens this week when President Hollande meets with President Putin?

HERTLING: Well, he's going to push toward a stronger coalition within Syria, and that's certainly true. But I think the back and forth is going to be, hey, we've got to address the other lines of operations against ISIS. Exactly as Daveed said, the financial implications, the flow of fighters from within countries, the internal security, the sharing of intelligence, especially between the countries of Europe and between the countries of Europe and the United States. The fact that we have to continue to target in Syria but there's a whole bunch of other lines of operations that both countries can contribute to and that hasn't been the case in the past.

[06:15:02]

CAMEROTA: General Hertling, Daveed, thanks so much for all of your expertise this morning.

HERTLING: Thank you, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Let's get over to Chris.

CUOMO: All right, Alisyn, now critics say it never happened. Donald Trump says it did, that he saw it, he read it, and that people are hiding the truth. What? Muslims celebrating in the streets of New Jersey after 9/11. This is turning to the advantage of Donald Trump and it is a good example of why he's popular. We will make the case next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: The reason that Trump is popular is because he tells it like it is. Muslims were celebrating after 9/11 in New Jersey. Thousands of them. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I saw people getting together, and in fairly large numbers, celebrating as the World Trade Center was coming down. I saw them on television and I read about it on the internet and I read about it.

[06:20:00]

So they said, oh, we can't find anything, Mr. Trump. Lo and behold, I start getting phone calls in my office by the hundreds that they were there and they saw this take place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Critics disagree. They say that there was some allegations, there were some small pockets of people, but certainly not thousands. And yet people seem to be resonating and rallying to the side of Donald Trump. What does it mean? Is it a metaphor moment?

Let's discuss. "TIME" political reporter Zeke Miller and CNN political commentator and political anchor at New York 1, Mr. Errol Louis. Errol Louis, I submit to you that this is an example of why Trump is popping with people, that we like to hide. We like to protect the Muslims. And he saw them and now we're playing political correctness and he will not. (WHISTLE) goes the polls.

ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, yes, this is what he says. And look, there's something that we journalists and others want to do, which is actually hold people accountable for the words that come out of their mouth. So he actually sort of migrated. First he said thousands and thousands. He said it at a rally over the weekend. Now he's changed it to fairly large numbers. He starts wiggling, he starts waggling, he pulls out a piece from 15 years ago that says there was an investigation, that there were reports that something might go on. No, absolutely nothing definitive from the FBI which apparently looked into some of this stuff. You have reports from multiple news organizations, including local news organizations, that were just trying to figure out what was going on.

And so Donald Trump is going to say whatever he wants to. His believers are going to believe whatever he says to a certain extent, and then the rest of us simply have to point out that what he has said is not true. What he said is either a gross exaggeration, a complete distortion, or an absolute fabrication.

CAMEROTA: So Zeke, why don't his supporters care whether or not he's fact bound?

ZEKE MILLER, "TIME" POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, the Trump supporters when you go talk to them at rallies, they love the style -- you know, the substance they don't really care about. They like the way he talks, the way he stands up to authority, the way he stands up to us in the news media, the way he says, oh, the people in media I like them, the people in the media I don't trust.

And the thing is, at the end of the day, he's tapping into that frustration with a small segment of the Republican Party in particular -- 30 percent of -- 33 percent of registered Republicans that are just frustrated with the way everything is in the country, whether it be every government institution, the media, the economy. And they just are gravitating to his style, less so his substance. So even these fact checks only help him in a certain sense because all it does it just sort of reinforces how he's the outsider, how he's standing up to authority.

CUOMO: It plays to whose narrative you want to believe. Interestingly, Errol, so Ben Carson says I was mistaking seeing people in the U.S. with seeing people abroad. And this becomes all of a sudden, while you would say, well, it's a factual correction. At least he's owning what he says and he's putting it in proper context, he's taking heat for it. I think we have sound of it.

CAMEROTA: Yes, we do. Let's play it.

CUOMO: Let's play this just so you understand the distinction and how it's playing with the base. Go ahead.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're talking about the reaction of Muslims after the 9/11 attack and if they were in a celebratory mood. And, you know, I was really focusing on that it was an inappropriate thing to do, no matter where they were. They asked me did I see the film? I did see the film. I don't know where they were, but I did see a film of Muslims celebrating.

I thought we were just talking about the fact that Muslims were inappropriately celebrating. I didn't know they had an agenda behind the question.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: And, look, he was in a safe harbor when he said that. He certainly didn't get beat over the head for it. But people perceive that as weakness by him. He's backing off.

LOUIS: I would take issue with that. I mean, I think, look, in this whole big crazy world of ours where there are different facts and different videos; it was 15 years ago, who remembers what? For him to simply clarify, look, I mean, I remember exactly the video he's talking about. I think it was shot on the West Bank as a matter of fact.

And so, look, there are parts of New Jersey that looked the West Bank, it's 15 years ago. I'm not sure. So he tries to clarify and I think that's it. I think you just leave it right there and you move on.

Now, there's a deeper question of were Muslims celebrating -- what does that mean for the campaign? What does that mean for, say, refugee policy? What does it mean for questions about immigration and so forth? That's really where the conversation needs to go so we don't get hung up on these tiny litle facts about did I see a video.

I mean, Donald Trump says he saw a video. He says he saw a video about people celebrating by the thousands in New Jersey.

CUOMO: But it's not about what happened.

(CROSSTALK)

LOUIS: He clearly -- he said he saw it with his own eyes. He said it on a video. Those are clearly not true. Ben Carson I think we should salute him for at least acknowledging that there was maybe a little bit of incorrect sort of assumptions that came out of what he answered.

CAMEROTA: Yes, except that he also snuck in the I didn't know there was an agenda behind the question. Yes, the agenda to get to the truth, Dr. Carson.

CUOMO: That's the key. That's the key.

CAMEROTA: That is the key. But see --

CUOMO: But not to his supporters. His supporters say you're playing a gotcha game.

CAMEROTA: Absolutely.

CUOMO: You wanted -- It's not enough for him to tell the truth. He's got to tell your truth.

[06:25:02]

Zeke, you hear it all the time out on the hustings. This is working very well now. It is not new but it is newly effective, which is that of course they're going to say I'm wrong, of course they're going to say there are problems with me. They're the lefty media. How much resonance is it getting out on the hustings?

MILLER: Well, that's in a way the undercovered story of this campaign, is just how the extent that -- to which all these candidates are taking advantage of the public's frustration with the media. The way that they can score political points, we saw it in that CNBC debate, where just after one candidate started standing up to the moderators, every single one in series did it and they all got a lot of applause in that room.

That's sort of become the narrative of this campaign. Everyone is telling their own truths to the American public, telling their supporters, their potential supporters, what they want to hear. And when anyone dares challenge them, to say you're wrong, I saw it or I read it on the internet. That's sort of where this campaign has gone.

CAMEROTA: Zeke, Errol, thank you. Always great to talk to you guys.

Also, a programming note for all of you out there. Tomorrow, on "NEW DAY", Republican presidential candidate Jeb Bush will join us live. We'll ask him about all of this and so much more. So tune in for that. Michaela. PEREIRA: All right, coming up, more of our breaking news coverage.

Turkey confirming that one of their F-16 fighter jets shot down a Russian warplane, claiming the Russian pilots ignored some ten warnings about violating their airspace. The Kremlin doesn't see it that way. We'll have more, next.

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