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Saudi Intel Officer with Ties to Crown Prince Oversaw Khashoggi Interrogation; Trump Slams Stormy Daniels on Twitter as 'Horseface'. Aired 7-7:59a ET

Aired October 17, 2018 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It depends whether or not the king or the crown prince knew about it.

[07:00:04] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An operation of sophistication without the approval of the crown prince is inconceivable.

MIKE POMPEO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: They told me they were going to conduct a thorough investigation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was the most embarrasing appeasement of a dictator since Helsinki.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's another day, another sexist taunt from the president.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's super mad at her and super made at Michael Avenatti.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can help turn out the women for Republicans.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If this is who Donald Trump is, is this something we're OK with?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Good morning and welcome to your NEW DAY. We have breaking new details emerging about the apparent murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi. These new details really seem to contradict the official Saudi version of events, a version that President Trump has seemed very willing to buy.

Sources tell CNN that a high-ranking intelligence officer with close ties to the crown prince was overseeing the operation to interrogate and possibly kidnap the "Washington Post" contributor, and that the crown prince had to be aware -- had to be aware of the operation.

One sources CNN that Khashoggi may have been injected with some kind of tranquilizer, drugged before dying inside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul. And a Turkish official tells us that Khashoggi's body was dismembered after he was killed. All this as Secretary of State Mike Pompeo is departing Turkey after

meeting there with Turkish leaders.

CAMEROTA: International pressure is mounting on the Saudis. They appear to still be drafting their cover story.

And President Trump at the moment appears to be believing it and accepting their denials. The president compares the Saudi's denials to Brett Kavanaugh's, telling the Associated Press this is another example of guilty until proven innocent.

The president is also finding time to engage in a Twitter name-calling war against two women.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Joining us now is Democratic Senator Chris Coons of Delaware, a member of the Foreign Relations Committee.

Senator, do you think that the Saudi crown prince, Mohammad bin Salman, had knowledge of this operation in Istanbul which led to the death of Jamal Khashoggi?

SEN. CHRIS COONS (D), DELAWARE: Well, John, that's certainly the direction the evidence is pointing. I haven't had a classified briefing yet on the latest information that our intelligence community has gathered, but I am concerned that President Trump seems willing to take the word of the king of Saudi Arabia, the king and Secretary Pompeo having gone to meet with the king and crown prince.

He seems strongly inclined to take their side of it, rather than waiting to hear from our intelligence community and rather than listening, as well, to our treaty ally, Turkey. I'm concerned that this is yet another incident of the president believing a strong man like Putin, as he did in Helsinki, rather than listening to our own intelligence community or criminal investigators, which press reports suggest are strongly pointing in the direction of responsibility by the king and crown prince for this abduction and, ultimately, murder of an American-based journalist.

BERMAN: Well, the president says -- and the secretary of state say they are doing is waiting for the investigation to conclude.

And President Trump had an odd comparison. He compared it to the Brett Kavanaugh situation with Justice Kavanaugh's confirmation. Let me read that to you: "Here we go again with, you know, you're guilty until proven instant. I don't like that. We just went through that with Justice Kavanaugh, and he was innocent all the way as far as I'm concerned."

What do you make of that comparison?

COONS: What I think is a closer comparison is what he said in Helsinki, despite the entire American intelligence community said there was conclusive proof that Russia interfered in our 2016 election.

Our president took the word of Vladimir Putin, someone who is a human rights violator, someone who is an opponent of the United States.

So this is a fundamentally different matter than a confirmation hearing for the Supreme Court, and I do think it's important that, as evidence begins to build and to come in that the president, if he's waiting for the outcome of the investigation, that's fine.

But as soon as there is credible intelligence, which frankly, I have reason to believe there already is, that the Saudis had a strong hand in this matter, that he needs to begin assembling an international coalition to re-examine our relationship with the Saudi kingdom, if that's where the evidence ultimately points.

BERMAN: Why do you think he has been willing to parrot the denials from the Saudi regime?

COONS: Well, this is a concern I've had across a wide range of interactions, that President Trump seems to want to believe and listen to, folks like Kim Jong-un in North Korea or Vladimir Putin in Russia or, in this case, the kind of Saudi Arabia and the crown prince, rather than our own allies. A number of our European allies, in this instance, obviously, our Turkish NATO ally, are pointing in the opposite direction. And I think he should be listening with at least equal weight, if not greater weight to those whose intelligence services are pointing in the direction of Saudi responsibility.

BERMAN: I just can't figure out why, though. Why in this case is he so deferential? Do you have any ideas, any thoughts?

[07:05:02] COONS: My sense of President Trump is that he is enamored of those who are absolute rulers, even dictators of their home countries.

His recent "60 Minutes" interview, in which he talked about his love affair with Kim Jong-un, someone who is one of the worst human rights violators in the world, who runs gulags, who starves and assassinates his citizens, some of his family members, to suggest that an exchange of letters and a brief meeting in Singapore produced a rapturous relationship, rather than an appropriate criticism of Kim Jong-un for his human rights record is, I think, all we need to know, which is that he is inclined towards strong-man leaders, and not inclined to listen to or believe our close allies.

He's recently insulted or created some distance with our allies in Canada and Germany, rather than Russia or Iran or, in this case, Saudi Arabia.

BERMAN: So we've been listening to the president. We've also been listening to some U.S. senators like yourself, who say that, if the president doesn't take action, no matter what the president does, we're going to get involved here.

Listen to Lindsey Graham and Marco Rubio.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R), FLORIDA: And this is going to alter the relationship between the United States and Saudi Arabia for the foreseeable future. What those specific measures are, obviously, is going to be up for debate. They'll be strong, and they'll be meaningful. Congress will act.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: I know what I'm going to do. Sanction the hell out of Saudi Arabia.

This guy has got to go. Saudi Arabia, if you're listening, there are lot of good people you can choose, but MBS has tainted your country and tainted himself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right. There were two things suggested by those Republican senators, No. 1, sanctions, would you support that. And No. 2, Lindsey Graham somewhat loosely seemed to be suggesting some sort of regime change or at least the removal of the crown prince, Mohammad bin Salman. Would you support that?

COONS: Well, I think we first need to give the president the chance, under the global Magnitsky Act, to conclude the investigation that's called for and make his recommendation to Congress on whether or not there will be sanctions forthcoming from the administration.

But I do agree with Senator Rubio, Senator Graham and many others. Senator Murphy. A number of us on the Foreign Relations Committee have called for a reevaluation of our relationship with Saudi Arabia.

Right now, the Saudis are conducting a war in Yemen that has had horrific consequences for the civilian population of Yemen. We've had a number of hearings and conversations and, ultimately, confrontations over the Saudi conduct of that war.

I do think we should be looking at our provision of armaments and in- air refueling and intelligence support for the Saudi conduct of that war. We also should be looking closely at the next round of Saudi arms deals.

BERMAN: Even --

COONS: President Trump mis-cited it as being $110 billion. It's nothing like that. But there are several billion dollars of sales that may well come up in the year ahead.

BERMAN: But he's not wrong in the sense that Saudi Arabia has been seen as a counter weight to Iran in the region. You think the United States should take action, even though they are providing useful assistance in the overall global struggle against Iran, and that the crown prince, Mohammad bin Salman, as Thomas Friedman notes, might be taking action against Islamists inside Saudi Arabia?

COONS: That's right. Look, Saudi Arabia has been an American ally for a long time. Iran is the greatest source of terrorism and of dislocation in the Middle East. They are a country that is profoundly opposed to American values and American interests. This break in -- potential break, excuse me, in our relations with

Saudi Arabia over a human rights issue, over the kidnapping and interrogation -- the alleged kidnapping and interrogation and potential murder of an American-based journalist is a significant development. I do think it's important for us to put our volumes at the top of the list of our interests. But we can't ignore our interests.

Saudi Arabia, particularly under the crown prince, has turned towards taking some action against extremists. On the other hand, they have a decades-long record of funding and fueling extremism in the region. So we need to balance that carefully.

BLITZER: If I can ask one -- about one subject really not connected, although there may be some connection in the president's own head, yesterday on Twitter, he attacked the appearance of Stormy Daniels. She responded by going after the president's manhood. Take a step back and talk to me about what you think the impact of this is.

COONS: Around the world, the fact that our president is engaging in a Twitter war with a porn star, someone whom he initially denied having any knowledge of having been paid off by his personal lawyer, but where ultimately, that ended up having been true, and where his personal lawyer has now pled, again, to eight felony charges.

This just does not help our country in any way. For President Trump to be stooping to the level of personal attacks on the appearance of women and -- it's just -- this is not the sort of thing an American president should be doing, especially at a moment when we face such significant challenges. A trade war with China; the aggressiveness of Russia towards our allies in Europe; and our upcoming election being at threat; and this significant impasse in our relations with Saudi Arabia.

For President Trump to personally be attacking Stormy Daniels and continuing this repeated flutter of attacks on Twitter against a porn star with whom he had some relationship, it's just beneath the presidency and distracting and harmful to the reputation of the United States around the world.

BERMAN: All right. Senator Chris Coons of Delaware, thanks so much.

We should note the president denies he had any relationship. We will leave that there.

Appreciate your time, sir.

COONS: Thank you, John.

BERMAN: Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: All right. We have so much to talk about. Let's bring in CNN chief international correspondent Clarissa Ward, who is in Ankara, Turkey; and CNN political analyst, David Gregory.

OK, Clarissa. Tell us where we are with what your reporting was that the Saudis were going to release a statement -- this was a couple days ago, I think -- that this was just a terrible unfortunate mishap, I guess, what happened in the consulate. This was an interrogation gone wrong; it wasn't an intentional murder of Jamal Khashoggi?

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Alisyn. And we're learning more about the operation itself, who oversaw it and it seems to be creeping ever closer to the crown prince, Mohammad bin Salman.

We now know, according to three sources, that the man in charge of the operation, a former military officer currently high up in intelligence circles. He is very close to the inner circle of the crown prince and B.S., as he's known.

We're also learning more about some of the 15 operatives who were on the ground. CNN has been given passport scans of seven of them, and we've been able to deduce that at least two of them have been seen publicly with the crown prince multiple times, one of them a diplomat, also a colonel in the intelligence services. The other one seems to be more of a guard-type figure.

But again, all of this leading to the idea that the crown prince is close to this operation, and adding, I think, a healthy dose of skepticism to this claim that they had no knowledge of it whatsoever and this idea that they are actively facilitating a transparent and timely investigation.

Turkish investigators getting incredibly impatient, increasingly fed up even, feeling that Saudis are actually trying to actively thwart this investigation or obstruct it. Still not allowing them into the consul general's residence, more than two weeks after Khashoggi first went missing, Alisyn.

BERMAN: It's interesting, David, because the facts in the reporting, as Clarissa was just saying, drawing it ever closer to the Saudi crown prince and the Saudi regime, even as President Trump seems ever more willing to parrot the Saudi regime's denials.

It's an interesting juxtaposition, no?

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, and you know, think about what the president said via tweet, where he raised the Kavanaugh confirmation.

What we know about his role there, he said it over the weekend to Leslie Stahl on "60 Minutes," is that if he had not done what he did to mock Dr. Ford, that they wouldn't have won. So taking over the P.R. part of this, going on the attack was instrumental in securing the confirmation, in his mind. So you can only conclude that he's thought again, "Look, I've got to take this over. I will be the chief spokesman on how we react to the Saudis."

Now, why he would do that, why he wouldn't be more restrained and more careful, given what we're learning day by day about how close this is to the crown prince as an operation, the fact that they are saying they're going to give a fuller operation, that they may have killed him accidentally. And yet, they're still not coming forward with the story.

And that you have a secretary of state who's saying, "Oh, well, they're promising that they'll do a full investigation." Does anybody think it's appropriate for Saudi Arabia to investigate itself on this, rather than some kind of independent international body?

All of this raises questions as to why.

And you know, I thought it was interesting when Senator Coons talked -- Coons talked about values versus our interests. Of course, the United States has huge interests. And Saudi Arabia is a key part of that. Will we allow, perhaps, leverage gained if they somehow get away with it? That we have leverage over Saudi Arabia in other areas as opposed to asserting our values, which is this cannot stand.

And again, the question I've raised before, which is why is it the Saudis felt they could get away with this with this administration?

CAMEROTA: I mean, just some of the new, disturbing details, Clarissa, that we have learned this morning through various sources, through a Turkish official, a fresh coat of paint was applied to all of the walls inside the consulate. Though we also know that there are officials who say that they still were able to find DNA that suggested something horrible happened inside there.

[07:15:00] A Turkish official says that Jamal Khashoggi's body was cut into pieces after he was killed. And again, the Turkish officials behind the scenes have said that they have audio and video evidence of the grisly scene that unfolded there.

We know that the -- as you say that the -- one of the Turkish officials who arrived, along with 15 others, into Istanbul, is a close companion of the crown prince often seen in photographs. And yet, let me just play for you what President Trump says about believing the Saudi denials. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: They deny it. They deny it every way you can imagine.

I just spoke with the king of Saudi Arabia, who denies any knowledge of what took place with regard to, as he said, his Saudi Arabian citizen. I've asked, and he firmly denied that. It sounded to me like maybe these could have been rogue killers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So what is the thinking in Turkey about where the U.S. is with this, Clarissa, because as we know, Congress sounds quite different than the narrative of the president has taken?

WARD: Well, I can tell you, Alisyn, that I don't think Secretary of State Pompeo's brief visit here to Ankara, where he met with the foreign minister and he met with the president, has done much to really alleviate the concerns of Turkish authorities that this investigation is being taken seriously by Saudi Arabia and that the U.S. is actively holding Saudi Arabia's feet to the fire.

And I think David Gregory really hit on a key question here, a key issue. How did Saudi Arabia think it could get away with such a thing, even if the -- if the operation hadn't ended in this brutal murder; even if it ended in a rendition or an abduction of Khashoggi?

And I think the answer to that question, based on what we've been looking at for the past few years, because the crown prince has been getting away with it for a long time. He has gotten away with waging a war in Yemen that has led to the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians, that have left millions of people on the brink of famine.

He has gotten away with starting a diplomatic war with Canada over a tweet. He got away with kidnapping the Lebanese prime minister and forcing him to resign on live television. He got away with arresting female activists who were demanding the right to drive, even after granting them the right to drive.

So there has been a sense in the kingdom that this man was untouchable, that he could do whatever he wanted with impunity. And I think Turkish officials are feeling a little bit frustrated that there isn't more sense of urgency coming from the U.S. that this investigation needs to happen; it needs to happen now; and as David pointed out, as well, it needs to be impartial. The Saudis can't be investigating their own crime.

BERMAN: You know -- go ahead, David.

GREGORY: I think we should also point out, John and Alisyn, that I would not be surprised at all if today, tomorrow, the president completely changes his tune on this and, maybe in consultation with Congress, takes a stronger stand.

That is the curiosity to me about why the president speaks out this way without knowing anything -- everything. I have to believe, based on my experience covering Washington and the White House, that he's got top advisers who are saying, "Let's stay quiet on this right now and figure out what we're going to do," and he decides not to do that. And we've seen this in how many other circumstances.

BERMAN: But why here? I just can't figure out, why here --

GREGORY: I can't either.

BERMAN: It doesn't make sense. I mean, it's not Roy Moore. You know, it's not Brett Kavanaugh. There has got to be some reason that he wants to come to the defense of Saudi Arabia.

GREGORY: So and I keep coming back to here's one thing that actually troubles me, is that in, perhaps in the president's mind, perhaps in some of his advisers, that in a very practical sense that this issue -- let's say that, you know, and Clarissa mentioned what happened with the Lebanese prime minister, Hariri, who was brought into Saudi Arabia and forced to resign. Maybe that's what they wanted to do. Maybe they wanted to put pressure here to interrogate Khashoggi, perhaps bring him into Saudi Arabia. And maybe the administration was going to say, "Look, you know, we'll

go along with all of that. Here you've gone too far. So now we have leverage against you in other areas," instead of pulling back and saying, "No, no, no. This cannot stand. We cannot abide by something like this without real punishment."

And again, this is a bipartisan issue. You had Senator Coons on this morning, you know, the president's stalwart supporter in the Senate. Lindsey Graham is saying that MBS, the crown prince, has to go.

So there's going to be a lot of pressure. We're a few weeks away from the midterms. Perhaps they don't want to bring all that pressure up now. But that part's not going away.

CAMEROTA: All right. David Gregory, Clarissa Ward, thank you very much.

So during this serious international crisis, President Trump was busy on Twitter attacking women. Will that have an impact on the November election? We discuss, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:23:58] BERMAN: President Trump attacking a woman for her appearance, calling Stormy Daniels, the adult film actress, "horseface." So what does this mean and what larger impact does it have?

Joining us now, two CNN political commentators: host of "THE VAN JONES SHOW," Van Jones; and Republican strategist Alice Stewart.

And friends, I'm going to try to do something here, which is hard. We're going to try to have a high-minded discussion about junk jokes and insults. Because I think it goes beyond that, Alice. And there's a political and a cultural impact. Let's start with the political, Alice.

You talk to Republicans all over the country. When they read Twitter yesterday, or when they got the phone call from their staffer, what do you think Republican candidates' first reaction was, their internal thought bubble when President Trump insults a woman for her appearance?

ALICE STEWART, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: It was, "Here we go again."

Look, I think we made great strides coming out of Judge Kavanaugh with regard to the base that supports President Trump, but the more things change, the more things stay the same.

And I think a lot of Republicans, especially Republican women are in my category, in that we support this president with regard to his policies; but his tone and tenor are something that -- it's really just something that you cannot defend. And this is -- this goes all the way back to well before he ran for office, while he ran for office and now that he is in office. And while we can say that, yes, people knew what they were getting

when they voted for him, and he won despite this kind of language and this kind of talk, it doesn't make it OK. And it is very frustrating when you have someone using immature and insulting rhetoric by any man, but let alone the man that's in the White House.

And I think what we need is a huge dose of message discipline in regard to this final stretch into -- going into the midterms, because I don't want it to have an impact on the turnout as we head into the midterms.

BERMAN: You know, Van, when you hear -- and I've heard it, too -- Alice is just saying people knew. People knew the president talked like this when he was running for office. This isn't a surprise. But does that cover it? Does that really explain away what happened yesterday?

VAN JONES, HOST, "THE VAN JONES SHOW": Well, no, but I think that, you know, big picture, high-minded, tough stepping back, really a functional country is kind of like -- it's like a table. You've got four legs. And Republicans can be happy about the fact that some of the policy and politics are going their way, wonderful. The economy is going their way, wonderful, or going well in some ways.

But there's two other legs here. One is just the basic culture of a country, the level of stability and functionality within the populace. And the other is respect for the institutions, which, you know, go beyond what the cops can make you do or what the IRS can charge you for. And what we're seeing is both the level of civility and just cultural cohesion coming apart and respect for institutions coming apart.

That makes you much more fragile than just your GRP [SIC] might indicate -- or your GDP might indicate. We've got a real problem here, because you now have a process that's beginning to feed upon itself. Now liberals are cheering, you know, Stormy Daniels when she says, you know, "Tiny," or whatever the thing is.

BERMAN: "Bring it on, Tiny"? "Game on, Tiny."

JONES: "Game on, Tiny."

So now you've got a runaway process where both sides now are headed toward the sewer. This is not a good thing, and it's not easy to recover from.

And so, you know, I don't know what impact it's going to have on the ballot box in three weeks. But I can tell you the impact that it's having across the country over the next three years and maybe the next decade, as we just become a cheap punch line country when you're trying to solve real problems.

BERMAN: Yes, it is interesting. And -- and you note there is, maybe, an impact three weeks from now, but there is a larger impact on boys and girls.

JONES: Yes.

BERMAN: On growing up.

JONES: I think those of us who are parents, in particular, really start struggling. You know, you can keep your kids in line, kind of. You can try to. But they're -- all teachers are reporting an increase in kind of bullying behavior, that kind of stuff. That is really unfortunate.

You can't lay it all at the feet of the president. I think the entire culture is getting more course, but you really want the president to be going against that trend and not accelerating it.

BERMAN: And Alice, you brought up the politics of this. And I had heard from both Republican and Democratic strategists. I don't know they're right, but who had said one of the characteristics of the Kavanaugh battle, was that it really wasn't a Donald Trump story. It was more of a judicial story. It was more of a traditional Republican versus Democratic story. It wasn't a Trump story.

Well, he seems to be ending that, singlehandedly trying to end that trend and make it all about him again and all the warts that may come with it. Is that a problem?

STEWART: I think, more than anything, we saw social evangelicals really get behind this presidency for the Supreme Court issue alone. That was my No. 1 issue for being able to vote for Donald Trump. I worked for many candidates who wouldn't engage in this type of tone and tenor and this rhetoric.

But the Supreme Court was a key issue, and a lot of social evangelicals got onboard. They were willing to give him a mulligan on some of the things that he's done in the past, given the fact that he would appoint Scalia-like justices, which is exactly what he did. And he was able to keep things in check and nominate the justices that were palatable for evangelicals and those that are along my line. And they have suffered greatly by a lot of the things this president has done, but it made it OK, based on these nominees.

And for him to so quickly out of the gate, having the wind at our back with the Kavanaugh, and engage in this type of rhetoric, it is frustrating. But that being said, I think we -- a lot of folks knew what we were getting with this president. And we will continue to see so.

But I think, sadly, the reality is, with regard to these comments, whether we are talking about "horseface" or "dogs" or "fat pigs" or "slobs," this is what the president would certainly much rather be talking about in regard to Stormy Daniels. I think he'd much rather us talking about him calling her a "horseface" than the fact he had an affair on his wife with her.