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Without Evidence, Trump Claims That Democrats Are Behind Migrant Caravan; Facebook Launches War Room To Combat Fake News; Report: Interior Secretary Zinke Broke Department Travel Rules; CNN Reality Check: How Democrats Could Expose Trump's Tax Returns. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired October 19, 2018 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: -- the president describes this issue of illegal immigration last night when he talks about this caravan that he wants to shine the spotlight on. And we don't have it -- OK.

But the point is, is he blames Democrats for it. He's blaming Democrats for this.

He says Democrats -- "This is an onslaught brought by the Democrats because they refuse to acknowledge or change the laws."

Is that fair, in your mind?

RICK SANTORUM, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, (R) FORMER U.S. SENATOR: Well, I think he -- what he's saying is the Democrats are out there basically calling for open borders. You know, basically calling for people to -- coming to America --

BERMAN: They're not calling -- so they're not calling for open borders.

SANTORUM: Well, they are. I mean, I was on -- I was on Chris's show last night and I was on with someone who is basically saying everybody who comes through the border should have an opportunity to come into America.

So, you know, they won't say open borders because that's a very controversial term, but --

BERMAN: I have never heard a Democrat campaign on open borders.

SANTORUM: Well, they don't say the word open borders, but they say that we should be compassionate to everybody who wants to come to America.

BERMAN: Does compassion mean open borders?

SANTORUM: That's the same. That is the same thing.

BERMAN: Do you not want -- do you not want to be compassionate?

SANTORUM: I want to be compassionate but we can't -- we can't be saying to people well, come and some way or another we'll let you -- we'll let you enter this country whether you come illegally or not. That's not compassionate to the millions of Americans who are going to be impacted by that flow of illegals.

And the point the president makes --

BERMAN: Does sending the National Guard --

SANTORUM: -- about the Democrats is -- let's be honest. I mean, Democratic funders like George Soros are funding these types of caravans for political purposes.

BERMAN: So look, you -- I've never heard a Democrat campaign on open borders.

Is President Obama deploying the National Guard on the border in 2010 -- is that open borders?

SANTORUM: Well, no. I'm not saying that President Obama was arguing for open borders. I'm saying that the new Democratic Party --

BERMAN: Because open borders is not a real thing because no one is calling for open borders. I get -- I get --

SANTORUM: The abolishment of ICE -- they're saying that people who -- I mean, listen, just go to the tape from last night.

I mean, Christine Quinn was out there saying that we should let everybody who has an economic -- who is in economic trouble around the world have the opportunity to come to America. This is -- this is -- if that's not open borders, I don't know what it is.

BERMAN: Well, again, there are no Democrats running for office campaigning open borders.

SANTORUM: They don't use the term but they make the argument that it is an open borders --

BERMAN: They -- most of them are calling for increased border security or border security of a certain kind.

SANTORUM: They vote against the wall and say the president is a -- is a -- is a xenophobe by being for the wall.

BERMAN: Is the wall the only way to have -- is the wall -- is the wall the only way to have border security?

SANTORUM: Well, certainly, it's a very important part of it. You can make the argument that what we're seeing here with an increase in people coming through -- an increase in arrests is that we do need more enforcement on the border and the wall is part of that.

BERMAN: But you just said -- but you just told me at the beginning of this that the problem of illegal border crossings is much less than it was 18 years ago. SANTORUM: It's still not -- it's -- look, you're still talking about 300-and-some-odd thousand people who are arrested and hundreds of thousands more that aren't arrested. That's still a real problem.

BERMAN: Senator Rick Santorum, always a pleasure to have you --

SANTORUM: Thank you.

BERMAN: -- with us. And I will reiterate, once again, you have always treated me with respect, which I do appreciate.

SANTORUM: And I will continue to do so. Thank you. I appreciate that.

BERMAN: Thank you -- Alisyn.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: You guys avoided cursing at each other -- progress.

Facebook says they are trying to stop online interference in the midterms. Keep bad actors from planting fake news.

So what exactly are they doing? The woman leading the Facebook team fighting fake news joins us, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:37:25] CAMEROTA: In anticipation of bad actors, again, trying to interfere in U.S. elections -- this time the midterms -- Facebook has launched a war room at its California headquarters. It is a culmination, they say, of two years of planning to avoid a repeat of 2016 and to prevent its social media platform from being used for fake news.

Here to explain is Facebook's News Feed product manager, Tessa Lyons. Tessa, great to have you here in studio with us.

TESSA LYONS, NEWS FEED PRODUCT MANAGER, FACEBOOK: Thank you so much for having me, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: So many people feel, frankly, that Facebook was slow on the uptick -- that they were a little asleep at the switch during 2016 and even after trying to stamp out fake news. So tell us if you agree and what you're doing about it.

LYONS: What I can say is we are in a fundamentally different place now than we were in 2016, and that's because of two years of hard work and investment both in people, but also in technology. And because of that, we're in a much better place and we've actually seen independent research that's confirmed the decrease in the amount of misinformation on Facebook.

CAMEROTA: OK, so let's talk about that. And just to define for everyone what fake news is, the real meaning -- I mean, this is the oxymoron -- the real fake news is fiction writers creating fictional stories to try to sow confusion and discord, and we saw that in spades.

Let's just look at an example so that you can tell all of us how you're going to tackle this.

Let's say someone tries to start another Pizzagate. That's there is some sort of pizza parlor where there is a pedophilia ring running in the basement of it.

That spread like wildfire during the election. It was linked to Hillary Clinton. It was all so absurd, it was all so disgusting, and yet it got so much attention that someone showed up with a gun at the pizza parlor.

So when something like that happens now in people's newsfeeds or you spot it, what happens?

LYONS: Well, there's three things that are really important to understand.

The first is that we remove fake accounts and pages and actors who are engaged in misleading and inauthentic behavior, and that's critical because we know that a lot of this is about the behavior in the actors and their bad intent.

But the second thing that we do is we also reduce the distribution of stories that are false or misleading, and we do that using a number of signals through news feed ranking.

And then finally, in some cases what we do is we give people more information. Now, that might be surfacing an article from fact- checkers, or in the case of ads, it might be ensuring that we're being fully transparent about the ads that someone is running.

And it's important that we're having all of these different actions because, as you mentioned, there's a lot of different types of fake news.

[07:40:00] CAMEROTA: But how do you know when there's a fake story for you to stamp it out?

LYONS: So we've been investing now for over two years in systems to help us detect potentially false stories and we do that using a number of signals, including feedback from our community. And what we're able to do is prioritize those for review by independent third-party fact-checkers.

CAMEROTA: OK, so when somebody sees something on their own Facebook account that they think is fake, what are they supposed to do?

LYONS: On every story that you see in News Feed, you can give us feedback. And one of the feedback options is indicating that you believe what you're seeing is false news. And that's a really important signal for us to understand the stories that should be prioritized for these independent third-party fact-checkers.

CAMEROTA: Are you calling it false news? LYONS: You know, people use different terms, and I think it goes back to what you said, which is what is the definition of this? I think that falsely implies that it is inaccurate, but it's fake news, it's false news, it's misinformation.

Regardless of what you call it, it's a problem. It's a problem that we take seriously. And that's why we've made so much investment over the last two years on the actor side, the behavior side, and also on the content to ensure that we're in a much better place and far more prepared now than we were two years ago.

CAMEROTA: I mean, fake news is a phenomenon that's been around for years. The president happens to have turned it into a household name, but he's misusing it. I mean, this is about people in their basements creating fictional stories like Pizzagate and then spread - trying to plant the seeds of it and sow discord.

Speaking of which, in terms of your research, have you seen meddling from Russia?

LYONS: You know, we are always looking out for any kind of interference, whether that's from foreign states or from financial- motivated actors. And as we've shared over the last several months, we've been doing more to take down pages and actors when we are able to identify them.

CAMEROTA: But can you quantify if you've seen them? I mean, listen, you know that this is a national debate.

In fact, the president doesn't want to believe that Russia interfered in the elections. He's trying to, it looks like, sort of divert to China. Here's what the president said this week about it. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LESLEY STAHL, CBS NEWS REPORTER, "60 MINUTES": Do you believe that the Russians interfered in the 2016 campaign -- election?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, they meddled, but I think China meddled, too. And I think other countries -

STAHL: But why do you think China meddled, too?

TRUMP: And you want to know something else?

STAHL: Why do you say China? Why don't you just say the Russians meddled?

TRUMP: Because I think China meddled also. And I think, frankly, China is a bigger problem.

STAHL: This is amazing. You're --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: In your research, have you seen that China is a bigger problem than Russia?

LYONS: You know, we've been pretty open in hearings that Mark and Sheryl and other leaders have done and in the research that we've shared with the FBI, with Congress, but also publically about what we're seeing, but I think it's really important to take a step back.

There is and has been, as we've talked about in the past, instances of foreign interference which we take incredibly seriously. There's absolutely no place for that on Facebook. We've been slow to respond in the past, which is why we're so laser-focused on this now.

But it's also important to remember that a lot of the misinformation and fake news that we see on Facebook is financially motivated. It's spammers.

It's what you mentioned earlier which is people who are trying to generate clicks to low-quality Web sites covered in ads so that they can generate impressions and ad revenue. And we've got to ensure that our systems are able to defend against all of those different motivations.

CAMEROTA: I understand, but do you not want to tell us what you've seen about Russia and China because I just -- we're just trying to get a handle if you can quantify if you've seen as much of it this time around?

LYONS: You know, I don't have anything to share beyond what we've already shared publically. But what I can say is the foreign interference piece is a very small part of the overall picture, but a critical piece, and that's why we're laser-focused on that problem as well as on the broader problems of misinformation that's financially- motivated spam.

CAMEROTA: I mean, because one of the things that the research has shown is that there were Russian accounts that would claim that there were going to be protests of some kind or rallies of some kind. And then people would show up and attend a fake rally that had been created by Russians with some sort of -- I don't know -- a fringe group they would claim.

And are you seeing that again? I just want to make sure that our viewers aren't duped into things this time around.

LYONS: We're being transparent when we're seeing these things. And so, we've shared some updates in the last several months.

For example, last week we shared that we removed hundreds of pages and accounts. In that case, it was because of the behavior that was spam and coordinated inauthentic behavior that we were seeing on our platform.

And so, as we find these things, we're being public about what we're seeing because we know that we can't solve this problem alone. This requires all of us working together. It requires us working closely with law enforcement and with the government, and it also requires us working closely with civil society and with news. CAMEROTA: Tessa Lyons, we hope that you guys have your arms around this certainly before the midterms. Thanks so much for explaining what Facebook is doing.

LYONS: Thank you for having me.

CAMEROTA: John --

BERMAN: Thanks, Alisyn.

A member of the president's cabinet cited for violating the rules. New travel troubles for the Trump team, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:49:35] BERMAN: Breaking overnight, Interior Sec. Ryan Zinke found to be violating government travel policies. An inspector general report says that Zinke allowed his wife to travel with him in federal vehicles and tried to bypass the rules by making her a volunteer.

CNN's Rene Marsh live in Washington with the very latest here. Rene, what's going on?

RENE MARSH, CNN GOVERNMENT REGULATION CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, this was a critical report from the Interior Department's inspector general.

[07:50:00] One of the most damning findings was that Interior Sec. Ryan Zinke tried to designate his wife as an agency volunteer for military service members, which is an issue of interest to him. He often speaks about his own military service. But the move would have made it easier for Zinke to justify free travel for his wife when she traveled with him.

According to the I.G. report, Zinke asked the Department of Interior employees to research legal and ethical implications of making Lola Zinke an official volunteer.

Now, Zinke is coming out and denying that his intention was to skirt government rules for reimbursement for travel, but we do know some Interior employees raised concerns about this and they were successful in convincing Zinke not to designate his wife as a volunteer.

Also in this report, the I.G. found another violation saying that despite a Department of Interior policy prohibiting non-government employees from riding in government vehicles, the Department of Interior Office of Solicitor General's Division approved Lolita Zinke and other individuals to ride in government vehicles with Zinke.

So in other words, the policy was that if you didn't work for the Department of Interior, you shouldn't be riding in government vehicles and the I.G. found that they violated that policy as well. Well, Zinke has since changed that policy so that it is possible for his wife to ride with him. But look, this all fits into a larger pattern where we've seen several cabinet members in the administration having issues -- scandals about their use of government resources and funds.

Back to you guys.

CAMEROTA: All right, Rene. Thank you very much for explaining the investigation to us.

So, an obscure law and a little-known congressman could turn out to be a big thorn in the president's side.

CNN senior political analyst John Avlon is here with a CNN "Reality Check." What do you know, John?

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Check this out, Ali.

So we all know elections have consequences, but if Democrats take the House there's one congressman you probably haven't heard of who will be massively consequential.

This is Congressman Richard Neal, from Massachusetts, and he's in line to become chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee. It's always an important position but next year it could be front and center because of this little-known power -- the ability to get President Trump's tax returns.

And it all stems from an obscure law that was added to the tax code back in 1924 after the Teapot Dome bribery scandal that swamped the Harding administration, one of John Berman's favorite factoids.

It says the committee responsible for writing tax law can request information on any tax filer for the Treasury Department. Congressman Neal also has a precedent to make this move.

President Nixon had his taxes released by Congress in 1973 after reports he'd underpaid by half a million dollars. Nixon's response --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD NIXON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'd welcome this kind of examination because people have got to know whether or not their president is a crook. Well, I'm not a crook. I've earned everything I've got.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AVLON: Now, to be clear, Republicans will oppose this effort, but they invoked the same law during the Obama administration when they held hearings into allegations of political bias at the IRS.

And keep in mind that candidate Trump repeatedly said that he'd like to release his tax returns.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I will release hopefully before the election. I'll release and I'd like to release.

I get audited and obviously, if I'm being audited I'm not going to release a return. As soon as the audit is done, I love it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AVLON: Look, it's clear the president has no intention of voluntarily releasing his tax returns despite every president doing so for decades. But his taxes are essential to answering questions about whether he bent or broke the law.

For example, earlier this month, "The New York Times" published an exclusive report that the president received a staggering $413 million, in today's dollars, from his father in a series of tax dodges, and paid only a fraction of the inheritance tax.

There are also plenty of questions about undisclosed foreign business interests or loans that could compromise his independence or influence his judgment.

For example, the president's son admitted at a real estate conference in 2008 that they see, quote, "a lot of money pouring in from Russia." But nearly a decade later, the president denied it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I have no deals in Russia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(Audio Gap)

AVLON: Back in 2015, Trump said this on the campaign trail.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Saudi Arabia -- and I get along great with all of them. They buy apartments from me, they spend $40 million, $50 million. Am I supposed to dislike them? I like them very much.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AVLON: But earlier this week, Trump denied he has any financial interests in Saudi Arabia or Russia.

Look, if the Democrats take the House, Congressman Neal will be in a position to finally answer these crucial questions. One principle remains consistent -- if you want to find out the truth, follow the money.

And that's your "Reality Check."

CAMEROTA: And, follow John Avlon.

BERMAN: Interesting to see. No, no, look -- we have said along the Democrats will go after the president's taxes. Nancy Pelosi made clear it's one of the first things they will do.

Richard Neal, not an obscure member of Congress. A key member of the Massachusetts delegation could be chairman of the Ways and Means Committee. He could do it. It would be interesting to see John, no?

[07:55:05] AVLON: Yes, but this is just because you have all the members of the Massachusetts delegation tattooed on your forearm -- the non-Red Sox fans. This has not been a national figure but he really could be one of the most consequential congressmen coming forward.

CAMEROTA: A great point.

BERMAN: All because my forearm is so big.

All right, John. Thank you very much.

We have an extra special edition of "Late-Night Laughs" next. A guest appearance by someone who does not host a late-night comedy show, at least not yet.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NIKKI HALEY, OUTGOING U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: Everyone in Washington called me with advice about this speech. They all said the same thing. Do not, under any circumstances, make any jokes about the president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: She's about to make a lot of jokes about the president. Ambassador Nikki Haley unplugged, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: OK, it's a special edition of "Late-Night Laughs."

Outgoing U.N. Ambassador Nikki Haley delivering zingers at the annual Alfred E. Smith Dinner -- which is fabulous, by the way, if you're ever invited as a guest -- in New York. This was last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HALEY: Everyone in Washington called me with advice about this speech. They all said the same thing. Do not, under any circumstances, make any jokes about the president. So, goodnight, everybody.

The president called me this morning and gave me some really good advice. He said if I get stuck for laughs just brag about his accomplishments. It really killed at the U.N., I got to tell you.

There are a number of my Washington friends I was hoping would be here but they just couldn't make it.

Cory Booker was here, but he walked out. Jeff Sessions wanted to be here but he recused himself. Jeff Flake was going to be here but he wanted to give the FBI a week to look into it.

There was a fake story that I'm actually thinking about running for president. That is so ridiculous. It is way too early for anyone to be thinking about running for president unless you're a Senate Democrat during the Kavanaugh hearing.

Last year, he went with Paul Ryan who's a Boy Scout, and that's fine but a little boring.

So this year he wanted to spice things up again, right? I get it. He wanted an Indian woman but Elizabeth Warren failed her DNA test.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So you've been invited to this dinner. What did you -- who did you wear when you went to the Al Smith Dinner, is what I want to know.

CAMEROTA: Well, I had to -- it was very fancy. That is my point. It is a very fancy dinner. You have to wear a beautiful gown.

But my point about that, right there, was I don't think her material was great. I mean, that wasn't uproarious humor, was it?

BERMAN: No. I'm still stuck on the fact that you think you're way more fabulous than I am.

CAMEROTA: Well, you --

BERMAN: You are, you are.

CAMEROTA: I mean, I was invited --

BERMAN: I mean, you are.

CAMEROTA: -- to it.

But anyway, yes -- maybe she should keep her day job, whatever that is.

BERMAN: For the next two weeks -- all right.

President Trump praises a congressman for assaulting a journalist. Let's start with that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Any guy that can do a body slam, he's my guy.