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New Day

Former President George H. W. Bush Lies in State in Capitol Rotunda; President Trump Tweets about Michael Cohen and Roger Stone in Reference to Mueller Probe. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired December 04, 2018 - 8:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is potentially an abuse of power that could lead to impeachment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This hero has returned to the capital at battle time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What we see is a man whose service was not driven by political gain or power.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was the first president to teach me that sometimes you fall short. And how you handle that, that is just as important as how you win.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota on John Berman.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to your NEW DAY, a special edition of NEW DAY. It is Tuesday, December 4th, 8:00 here in Washington. And all morning long we have been looking at these live pictures from inside the Capitol Rotunda. Just so moving, so poignant. There is the casket of former president George H. W. Bush, the 41st president of the United States, lying in state there. You can see the honor guard watching over his casket. This really is a moment in history, the country coming together to be part of this moment. The former president will remain there lying in state until tomorrow morning.

The current president and first lady, they paid their respects overnight. President Trump will pay a condolence visit to the Bush family today across Pennsylvania Avenue from the White House Blair House. That is where they are staying. The president, President Trump, will attend the state funeral tomorrow. He will not speak. Former president George W. Bush who was so clearly filled with emotion all day yesterday, he will eulogize his father.

"The Washington Post" has some interesting reporting that the Bush family engaged in a sort of undeclared truth or detente with President Trump this week. They want the focus to be on the legacy of President Bush rather than any overt anti-Trump sentiment.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: So as the solemnity of all this memorial service plays out, we could also learn much more about the special counsel Robert Mueller's Russia investigation this week. There will be a series of court filings starting today that involve three of President Trump's closest associates. The first one is that, at some point, maybe this morning, Mueller is expected to reveal details of the cooperation that he obtained from fired national security adviser Michael Flynn. Flynn pleaded guilty to lying about the FBI about his conversations on sanctions with Russia's ambassador.

President Trump is venting his frustration on Twitter about the Mueller probe, saying that Michael Cohen, who was his long-time attorney, should go to prison, and that Roger Stone has guts for refusing to testify or cooperate against him. Does this rise to the level of witness tampering?

Let's discuss. We have an all-star panel here. We have David Gregory, David Chalian, Laura Coates, Bill Kristol, former chief of staff to then Vice President Dan Quayle. It's great to have all of you. It is great to be with you in Washington, D.C.

OK, so, Laura, this is what people are talking about in terms of this tweet that President Trump set down about what is happening with the Mueller probe. So let me just read it. He says "I will never testify against Trump. This statement was recently made by Roger Stone, essentially stating that he will not be forced by a rogue and out of control prosecutor to make up lies and stories about President Trump. Nice to know that some people still have guts." Any legal jeopardy for the president here?

LAURA COATES, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: It's bizarre that he would look at Roger Stone as being the model person to follow, because Roger Stones has been somebody who, all of his associates have been questioned. There may be a reason why he himself has not testifying, because you don't have the perceived defendant or target of an investigation actually make statements beforehand, lesson for Michael Cohen, number one.

Number two, the president's statement is part of a larger pattern that he has here, Alisyn, where he weighs in where he should not. He is seen as influencing witnesses, or at least trying to have the perception out there that there is a stake in it that he has and that he wants to kind of scratch my back, scratch your back. This particular tweet doesn't go as far as perhaps others would be to say obstruction of willful tampering of a witness because he tries to suggest that because he thinks it is a rogue prosecutor, he is encouraging someone to tell the truth, and he's praising this person for not wanting to make misstatements or all-out lies in a federal investigation.

This one is a little bit odd, but at the end of it, the guts. Compare and contrast the way he has done this and made these praiseful statements about people like Roger Stone against somebody like Michael Cohen, who he has called weak and says that his cooperation is somehow part of a larger witch hunt. It is shocking that the head of the executive branch is weighing in in this fashion.

BERMAN: We'll let Laura Coates deal with U.S. code 1512 for the actual language of the law, but Bill Kristol, I have had people note the language that was used here. He doesn't want people to make up lies and stories is sort of like a mob moss saying, I hate for anything to happen to him. I'd hate for that to happen. And that falls maybe outside the legal realm into the can you believe this is happening in our country realm.

BILL KRISTOL, EDITOR AT LARGE, "THE WEEKLY STANDARD": Yes, a normal president, if I can use that term, and I use it in light of the funeral for President George H. W. Bush, he was a very admirable, but he was a normal president who upheld the norms of the office, would say, obviously, I want you to cooperate with a federal investigator.

[08:05:04] That's what George W. Bush said when Scooter Libby was investigated. It's what Ronald Reagan said during Iran-Contra. It's what Nixon even said publicly, privately he -- but seriously, that matters, right. And when it came out what he said privately, that was a huge part of the impeachment charges, and so forth. So it is pretty amazing that we are so used to Trump doing this that he's basically attacking a federal investigator dually appointed with a whole bunch of FBI and other career prosecutors working with him, implying that they are all somehow trying to get people to lie.

As Laura, said, that's amazing right away, right? Is that plausible, that just not Mueller himself but dozens of attorneys, dozens of FBI agents, others from around the Justice Department are engaged in a huge conspiracy to get people to knowingly to tell untruths, to lie under oath. Is that plausible? And he attacks Cohen, who is cooperating, as one would think he would want people to cooperate with an investigation. And he praises Stone, who is not cooperating.

CAMEROTA: David Gregory, big picture of this week and its significance as you see it?

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: With regard to Mueller, you mean?

CAMEROTA: Truly, it's hard for me to separate them. It's hard for me against the backdrop of what's happening with Bush 41 and the Mueller investigation heating up, or at least what will be revealed to the public, I can't separate these two right now since we're in Washington.

GREGORY: You know what I was just thinking, I think whatever happens with Mueller and his report and charges that are brought, I think there is a collective sense in the country that you could separate it out even from the politics, the populist politics of Donald Trump, which showed its initial signs going all the way back to President Bush 41 when he had to deal with Ross Perot, when he had to deal with Pat Buchanan during a primary fight in 1992.

But there is a kind of collective rejection of breaking the norms of our public life and of the presidency. And yes, I think George Herbert Walker Bush is a wonderful example of the relationships that were forged as tough as he could be in politics in public life and how well he wore the presidency. And there is an appropriate celebration of that. And sometimes these national, very public moments of mourning are a reminder of the relationships with each other and that we expect our public figures to have with each other that matter to all of us, that make us feel better, for good reason.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICS DIRECTOR: Just to pick up on David saying the rejection of the norm busting, this is why tomorrow when the president's club gathers at the funeral, it is going to be so fascinating to see it, because due to Donald Trump's norm busting of this office, he's been excommunicated from this president's club in lots of ways.

CAMEROTA: Meaning they don't communicate with him? How have --

CHALIAN: Yes. Meaning they have not been in touch with him at all. He has not participated in events where the others have gathered. So we're seeing it for the first time tomorrow. And I just think watching their behavior with each other in that cathedral tomorrow because of exactly what David is saying is going to be unbelievable.

BERMAN: Who shakes whose hand first, and what happens when Bill Clinton is next to Donald Trump, next to Barack Obama? Those are serious questions. We have been reporting all morning long the "Washington Post" story about this undeclared truth that the Bush family wanted with President Trump during this, letting him know over the summer that he would be invited to the funeral. But you are talking about norms here. And it strikes me. There is a blind quote in that piece that, no, the Bush family doesn't want any overt anti- Trumpism, but the blind quote is, the comparisons are presenting themselves.

CHALIAN: There's no doubt about that, and they know that, which is why in addition to upholding the institution and why it is so important for the Bush family to not break tradition and somehow cause an even bigger controversy by not inviting President Trump to the funeral, but they are so keenly aware that the comparisons are inevitable, and so there is nothing to be afraid of in terms of inviting President Trump. Granted, the family has this sort of get out of jail free card in some ways with the fact that the son of this president was a president, and so you are able to still have a U.S. president speak at the funeral without anyone questioning why Donald Trump is not.

KRISTOL: Who in public life today is, just in his manner, in his bearing, in his background and in his life service to the country, reminds one the most of George H. W. Bush? I would say Robert Mueller. Patrician, son of some privilege who went to a prep school, who went to an Ivy League college, volunteered to serve in Vietnam when a lot of other people weren't, served heroically in Vietnam as President Bush served heroically in World War II, and has basically served his country under presidents of both parties form most of his entire adult life. He is a very reserved figure who doesn't seek the limelight and is less political in way that former President Bush, obviously, who got into electoral politics. But I'm just struck by the irony of that. Bob Mueller is in the tradition of George H. W. Bush.

[08:10:00] CAMEROTA: So Bill, what are you looking for tomorrow when all the presidents are together? We don't see this often. KRISTOL: We don't. They will behave. I assume they will behave

appropriately, all of them. And we will all be saying at the end of the day that the norms at least have held for one ceremony. I hope that's the case.

BERMAN: And Laura, before we move on, because actually we want to talk about politics beyond Mueller or Trump. Joe Biden, that's a deep tease right there. Laura, just legally speaking for the rest of the week, we have the Flynn sentencing the other day and then we have memos in court hearings involving Manafort and also Michael Cohen later this week. How much will we know?

COATES: Hopefully we'll know a lot. These are very revelatory documents in the sense that, for example, Michael Flynn, the very first person to really start the chant of "lock her up" is now facing that in his future immediately at this point in time. And so we have all been wondering why Michael Flynn, who pled guilty over a year ago now, has been silent. Has he been impactful in the investigation? And also, the final piece is where this all fits. But remember, the president has recently turned in his own written answers, and all of a sudden Manafort has now been called a liar. Michael Cohen has pled guilty to more charges. We're hearing from Michael Flynn, who has all but been a recluse up until this point in time. So now everyone is looking to figure out how much of that jigsaw puzzle was completed by the president's statements. And going forward, I expect to see a lot of information coming out.

CAMEROTA: David, one more thing about the optics in terms of President Bush's funeral. And you saw something last night in the moment that Bush 43 and Nancy Pelosi saw each other. I missed it, so I'd like to play this for everybody if we have it, and you can tell us what you saw in this greeting.

GREGORY: Well, so that's Nancy Pelosi, incoming speaker, with former President Bush with a pretty warm embrace. There is quite a backstory there. We shouldn't forget that the Bush years, there were really tough political times before Trump came into town. And during the Iraq war it was life and death. And there were rough moments, obviously, between them when she was in Congress as speaker.

But they were very close because Speaker Pelosi's daughter, Alexandra, who John and I know well, who was the producer on the Bush bus back in 2000, she was very close with George W. Bush, did a film about him called "Journeys with George." And so they always were very close. So when Alex had her first child, in the middle of a tense political moment, Nancy Pelosi, one of the first people she called was President Bush, and they had a very warm moment.

So to me it is just a reminder that there was an obvious emotional moment there that's a reminder of real relationships that happen in the capital that are personal relations that are amid the thrust and the parry of politics. And that was just another one.

BERMAN: The way things can be, not the ways things necessarily are right now. All right, someone who walked the halls of the capital for decades and

decades and decades and may again is the former vice president of the White House, Joe Biden, who said more last night than I think he has every said about whether he is I guess thinking about running for president. Listen to this.

CAMEROTA: Very dramatic.

(LAUGHTER)

BERMAN: "I'll be as straight with you as I can. I think I'm the most qualified person in the country to be president. The issues that we face as a country today are the issues that have been in my wheelhouse, that I've worked on my whole life." David, Chalian, you don't say I'm the most qualified person to be president of the United States unless you really are thinking out running to be president of the United States.

CHALIAN: Yes. And this fits with a pattern. First of all, there is no doubt that he's thinking about running. He said also last night he is going to make his decision in six weeks to two months and he's going to huddle with his family and it will be a family-based decision. So there is no doubt he is thinking about running and actually putting in some pieces for a potential run.

But this fits also with what he's been saying for the last two years, which is that he boastfully, I guess, says, yes, I'm the most qualified. But I'm also really hoping that there is somebody from another generation who I think is as equally qualified. I think what we're going to find out is whether or not he actually sees that person out there or not.

BERMAN: You hear Democrats talking about the next generation. You hear Democrats talking about new blood. That is not decidedly the former vice president, if that's the qualification in trying to choose there.

GREGORY: And isn't it interesting, too, we're talking about former President Bush, who is dealing with this upstart, this new, young Democrat out of Arkansas when he said at the time, I'm clearly the most qualified to be president, and he ends up losing to him. What I think is so interesting, and David is spending every day looking at the particulars of this, Democrats while they are thinking about the future are also just thinking about Midwest, right? And they're thinking about who can win back the Midwest, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, et cetera, Michigan? And if it's an economic message that's so important, especially as there is fears about a further economic downturn, I feel there is this tunnel vision of who can win back those voters.

BERMAN: Interesting to see. Thank you all.

CAMEROTA: Thank you, all, great to talk to you.

BERMAN: So did President Trump's tweets about one former insider cooperating with Mueller and the other who vows to stay silent, did it cross a line? Is this witness tampering? We're going to ask a legal expert next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:18:35] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: President Trump's official statements on Twitter are raising questions now about witness tampering and obstruction of justice. The president called on the courts to throw the book at Michael Cohen, who is cooperating with the special counsel while the president praised Roger Stone for having the guts to remain silent.

Joining me now is Neal Katyal. He's the former acting U.S. solicitor general in the Obama administration.

Neal, thanks for being with us.

I'm going to cut through the suspense. You think this does constitute witness tampering or that the courts could construe it as witness tampering.

I want to break it into two parts, if I can. We'll get to the pattern in a second. But I want to cover the tweet in and of itself in a vacuum, specifically about Roger Stone where he says nice to know that some people still have guts about not testifying.

Does this tweet in and of itself in your mind constitute that?

NEAL KATYAL, FORMER U.S. ACTING SOLITICITOR GENERAL: It sure looks that way. This is really grave stuff.

There is a federal statute 1512, 18 USC 1512, which prohibits any person from stopping any other person from testifying or delaying their testimony because of a corrupt intent. And it sure looks like when you read that tweet and when you read it next to the other one tweeted right alongside it the minute before about Michael Cohen and how the book should be thrown at him, this is not the way any ordinary investigation proceeds unless you are dealing with, you know, the mob or something like that.

[08:20:05] And that is the way the president is talking, which is, you know, it would be a sure shame if you cooperated with the government. Bad stuff happens to those who cooperate and good stuff happens to those like Roger Stone who stay silent.

BERMAN: Now, I could hear the voice of Rudy Giuliani or Jay Sekulow in my head, though, at this point saying, yes, but if you read the tweet about Roger Stone, he is literally saying he doesn't want Stone to be forced to make up lies and stories. So the president is saying he doesn't want anyone to lie.

So, is he trying to thread a needle there?

KATYAL: Well, I think we should really view that in context. The idea that Giuliani's defense the president's defense is he was telling people not to lie. If so, that would be a first. That is not the way Donald Trump behaves. And so, you know, it would be a pretty remarkable thing for the

president for the first time to tell people to tell the truth, rather his modus operandi is to a hire a bunch of people who lie for him. And then if they turn on him, to say, oh, you're a liar.

And, you know, it would be one thing if this were coming from Mother Teresa or something like that. It's coming from Donald Trump, whose pants are literally on fire when he opens his mouth.

BERMAN: Well, I think there's no question that there are plentiful examples of president lying about different things. There are also examples of many people who work for him lying about things, including in this investigation. It is a question about whether he has ordered them to lie.

Let's come back to that in a second if we can because I asked you in the beginning to look at these tweets in a vacuum. Now, remove the vacuum, and talk about the pattern here and why a pattern is important.

KATYAL: Yes. I mean, I think the most corrosive thing about this president is not any one of these things, either the tweets or the dangling of pardons, or the firing of Comey or the firing of Jeffrey Sessions, you know, all because they're investigating him or letting an investigation proceed. It's the pattern taken together.

You know, when you are the president, our founders said you have to swear an oath on the bible to uphold the Constitution and laws of the United States, on the bible or whatever else you pray to. And, you know, this is a president who demonstrates extreme recklessness when it comes to the rule of law. And, you know, we as Americans, we all fight and bleed for the rule of law and for the Constitution. That's why many people came to this country and the like.

And what the president is doing here is he's saying, you know, he's saying -- you're right. He didn't order Stone not to testify. He didn't have to do that. He said don't cooperate and effectively you are going to get a get out of jail free card. But if you do, then I am going to tell everyone to throw the book at you.

And, you know, the mob does it with violence. He's doing it with the law enforcement apparatus. You know, I served twice at the Justice Department, and I can tell you that these types of things that are the things of two-bit criminals. There are not the things that any government official, even a law-ranking government official, let alone the president of the United States.

BERMAN: Does it matter at all that this is being done out on the open on Twitter versus behind closed doors?

KATYAL: No, not at all. I mean, the statute is very clear and same with the obstruction of justice ones. Whether you do it openly or quietly, you know, overtly, either way, it's a crime.

And, you know, beyond the fact of whether it's a crime or not, I think we should also think about the kind of consequences for the House investigations come January and then even the potential for impeachment. And whether or not you want to have impeachment or not, that's a tough question. But I think here, given what the president has been doing, you almost have to look at it because this is grave.

This is -- you know, this is such disrespect for law enforcement. And the president says, oh, this is a process crime or something like that.

No, this is what our law enforcement system is built on, the idea that people cooperate with the government. They don't lie to investigators. And, so, when they say -- when Trump says, oh, the Mueller investigation is taking a long time, of course, it is taking a long time because the people are lying to it and being induced not to cooperate by danglings of pardons and other things like that.

COOPER: As we talked about whether the president himself is accused anywhere of ordering people to lie or to break the law, in regards to the first guilty plea from Michael Cohen, Michael Cohen says under the direction of the president, he paid off Stormy Daniels and made the arrangement for Karen McDougal. That is in writing and was said out loud by Michael Cohen.

In this latest plea, he doesn't say he was ordered by the president. That specific language is not there. I have learned to read Robert Mueller's people very, very carefully here. Is that a correct reading of what's been said publicly?

KATYAL: I don't quite think that's right. So, with respect to the payments of McDougal and Stormy Daniels, the latest Cohen filing on Friday night of last week says he was doing this because of President Trump, at President Trump's order and with coordination with President Trump.

This is very, very significant because Cohen has pled guilty to campaign finance violations, of using his money in order to give an illegal contribution.

[08:25:06] And in that Friday night indictment, it says I was told Trump was going to pay me back. I was doing this with Trump's coordination and the like, so there is all of that damning stuff with respect to that. With respect to Russia and Moscow Tower, that's where there is more ambiguity in the Friday night filing.

BERMAN: Neal Katyal, thanks so much for this discussion. I really appreciate it. Very, very interesting.

KATYAL: Thank you.

BERMAN: Alisyn?

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: So, John, as the country says good-bye to the 41st president, there is a much more personal experience happening for George H.W. Bush's family. So, up next, his eldest grandchild George P. Bush will tell us what he'll miss most about his grandpa.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Washington displaying a rare show of unity as lawmakers from both parties came together to honor George H.W. Bush. The 41st president will lie in state for public viewing until his funeral tomorrow.

And joining us now, we are honored to have his eldest grandchild, George P. Bush. He's now the Texas land commissioner and he will eulogize his grandfather on Thursday before the burial in Texas.

George, great to have you.