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Second Shutdown Looms as Talks Break Down; Top Dems in Virginia Refuse to Step Down Despite Allegations. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired February 11, 2019 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are not to a point where we can announce a deal.

[07:00:06] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Negotiations seldom go smooth all the way through.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This has become the ego negotiation. This really isn't over substance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The president's right to have contingency plans in place.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are very serious allegations. It's just not clear to me how he can continue to do his job.

GOV. RALPH NORTHAM (D), VIRGINIA: I really think that I'm in a position where I can take Virginia to the next level. It will be very positive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's determined to go on this reconciliation tour. He should do that as a private citizen rather than as the governor.

SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I am running for every American. I am running for you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: By the time we get to 2020, Donald Trump may not even be a free person.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We need bold visions, policies, platforms, and I think that's what we're seeing.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Good morning and welcome to your NEW DAY. Alisyn Camerota is back, which is the best news we're going to receive all day.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you. I am so happy to be well- rested and back in the saddle. It's only been three hours, and I'm still feeling great. BERMAN: Well-rested, keep it to yourself.

CAMEROTA: Thank you.

BERMAN: So after the longest government shutdown in U.S. history, you might think there would be no way it could happen again. No way that the White House and Congress would let 800,000 people go without paychecks. No way they wouldn't reach some deal. No way.

Well, this morning we are here to tell you --

CAMEROTA: Way.

BERMAN: -- way. Because bipartisan border talks have broken down. The latest sticking point: Democratic demands to limit the number of undocumented immigrants who could be held in ICE detention centers. Now, these are people arrested in the interior, not at the border when they cross.

CAMEROTA: So tonight, there will be a different showdown on the southern border. President Trump and former Texas Congressman Beto O'Rourke, a potential 2020 challenger, will hold these dueling rallies in El Paso.

That city has become a focal point for the president in his relentless push for a border wall. The president falsely claimed that before a wall was built there, crime was rampant. But it's a relatively safe city.

So also new this morning, another leak of the president's private schedules. This time from just last week. This schedule showed that nearly half of his hours were spent in so-called executive time, unstructured stretches where we do not really know what the president does. Acting chief of staff Mick Mulvaney says the White House is close to finding the person behind that leak.

So let's begin with CNN's Lauren Fox live. She is live on Capitol Hill. What is the latest, Lauren?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alisyn, there is an impasse this morning on Capitol Hill when it comes to trying to avert another government shutdown coming Friday.

Now, I will tell you that the sticking points are what we've heard for the last several weeks as negotiators have tried to push through in this negotiation. Democrats wanting to cap the number of detention beds, and of course, there's still a concern about how much money they would be willing to give for the president's border wall.

Although I'm told from aides on both sides of the aisle that there were proposals that were being traded back and forth. Late last week there was a lot of optimism.

Over the weekend yesterday, that optimism essentially ending as lawmakers on both sides of the aisle saying they may not be able to get a deal. So what do they do next? They might have to pass some kind of short-

term measure to stop another government shutdown. There are no plans for them to meet as of yet today. So another concerning sign. And the White House not saying that there wouldn't be another government shutdown.

Here's what the president's chief of staff, Mick Mulvaney, had to say yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHUCK TODD, HOST, NBC'S "MEET THE PRESS": We cannot definitively rule out a government shutdown at the end of this week?

MICK MULVANEY, WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: You absolutely cannot and here's why.

TODD: OK.

MULVANEY: Let's say for sake of this discussion that the Democrats prevail and the hard-core left-wing Democrats prevail. It was a Democrat congresswoman who put out a tweet yesterday about $0 for DHS.

So let's say that the hard-core left wing of the Democrat party prevails in this negotiation, and they put a bill on the president's desk with, say, zero money for the wall or 800 million, some absurdly low number. How does he sign that? He cannot in good faith sign that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOX: And of course, there are dueling rallies on the border tonight in El Paso. The president will make his case for that border wall, and Democrat Beto O'Rourke will be saying exactly what he thinks the Democratic position should be on the wall -- John and Alisyn.

BERMAN: All right. Lauren Fox for us on Capitol Hill.

Joining us now, Nia-Malika Henderson, CNN senior political reporter; David Gregory, CNN political analyst; and Kirsten Powers, CNN political analyst and "USA Today" columnist.

And Nia, Alisyn and I were talking. You know, going into these discussions, you would think that there would be no way, no way that we could be facing another government shutdown just days from now. But Mick Mulvaney, the White House chief of staff, just basically said "way," it could happen.

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: It's always the White House and so the president never really took the prospect of a government shutdown off the table.

The thinking was that Republicans just couldn't stomach it, that they shouldered a lot of the blame for that 35-day shutdown, as well as the president and that going forward, there would be some sort of meeting of the minds with these appropriators who are much more sort of sober- minded politicians. And typically, much more open to compromise.

[07:05:09] There had been sort of a glimmer of hope a couple of days ago. And now it seems that things have broken down quite a bit with Democrats introducing demands we hadn't really been talking about before. But certainly is in line with what we've heard Democrats more broadly talk about when they talk about immigration, this idea of reining in ICE.

So you see them going at the number of beds. They're trying to get ICE to focus on hardened criminals, rather than folks who maybe, you know, have kind of petty crimes and just broken the law in terms of coming into the country.

So we'll see where this goes. We've got until Friday. There's no meeting today. We'll see what we hear from the president. It's going to be also very interesting. I think the real interesting thing will be to hear from Beto O'Rourke on this issue in kind of this dueling rally down in El Paso.

CAMEROTA: David Gregory, if the government shuts down on Friday is -- has the blame shifted? You know, three weeks ago the feeling was generally that the president owned it. He had said that to Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi. It seemed as though Americans were blaming him most.

And then he capitulated and gave them three more weeks to come up with some sort of funding. And so this time around, the calculus changed and would Democrats be to blame?

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think a bit. I don't know that it fundamentally will. I think the president will still bear the brunt of blame for a government shutdown, especially when the president -- you know, you can tell a lot when the president goes down to the border and does some big over-the-top rally, where he's just arguing a case, likely with, you know, falsehoods instead of being very particular about what borders agents needs [SIC], what's really needed.

So both sides need to be in a position where they can strike a deal and tell their base it was worth compromising on this because we got something bigger.

And so the issue of ICE and the beds, this is a base issue on the left. The president's wall issue is a base issue on the right. They're going to have to make a case of who bears more of the blame for shutting the government down, if that goes on this way.

But I do think Democrats get more here than they got before if, after several weeks, especially with the issue of knowing the Democrats have supported a wall in the past or border fencing in the past. It's all about how it gets defined. How failure gets defined.

BERMAN: It is also interesting, Kirsten, as we're watching this. You are seeing Democrats around the country react in different ways. And the California governor, the new governor, Gavin Newsom, there is pulling back the National Guard troops that had been deployed by the former governor, Jerry Brown, at the president's request at the border.

He's saying, "Enough already. I don't want the National Guard troops, which he controls, to be down there anymore. He's going to have them doing different things."

So Democrats seem to be saying they've had enough in terms of giving things here.

KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. I mean, I find this a little crazy making, honestly. I mean, the idea that now Democrats are somehow going to be responsible when it's the same exact thing as before. So I don't understand why they would be responsible this time, but they weren't responsible last time.

CAMEROTA: Only but there's this new variable. Sorry to interrupt. But, you know, the beds. That wasn't something that was discussed three weeks ago, that now they want to limit the amount of people who can be arrest and detained.

POWERS: Yes. I'm not -- I'm not sure they're going to die on that hill. You know, I think that's something we'll have to wait and see.

But what I do think is important is to talk about the substance of this, which is ICE has actually been a problem for quite some time. And under Obama, they were very problematic.

And so the Democrats are actually trying to address something that is an actual problem versus Donald Trump is trying to fulfill a campaign promise. And, you know, and I think it will be interesting tonight to watch the sort of dueling, you know, events between the president and Beto O'Rourke, because Beto O'Rourke lives on the border. He actually knows what's going on there.

And what the president has done is he's created a kind of manufactured crisis and said, "We need to have this wall" when, in fact, that's actually not what we need. And that's been covered a lot here.

I mean, there are things that need to be done on the border. They're more at ports of entry, frankly, is where the problems are. And -- and his big beautiful wall, which he's even compared to, you know, the great wall of China.

So we're not -- he wasn't talking about fencing. You know, he was talking about a huge wall is actually not what's needed on the border. So I think that, you know, it's still fundamentally the same argument is that he wants funding for a wall, which is not something that substantively is actually needed.

BERMAN: And he also seems to be suggesting that, no matter what happens in these negotiations, he's going to find money or use money.

GREGORY: Right.

BERMAN: For that wall.

POWERS: Exactly. BERMAN: And I think that might be factoring into what Democrats are

doing here. They may be saying, "Wait a minute. If the president is going to take whatever we give him anyway and then go ahead and still declare some kind of emergency action."

[06:10:04] He's sending a new bunch of troops to the U.S. border, so there will be more U.S. troops there than have been there before for something that many people look at and say just flat-out isn't a crisis.

GREGORY: But this is not --

POWERS: Yes, and I think just in terms of our safety, what the Democrats are asking for, they're asking ICE to focus on the people who actually are dangerous and problematic, versus what they've been doing, which is they go after people who are very low-level offenders that aren't really dangerous.

And so I think that, you know, if we're trying to keep our country safer, it's not just -- it's not a -- it's not just some random demand from the Democrats. But like I said, I'm not sure they're going to die on that hill. I mean, we have to wait and see what they'll do.

GREGORY: Yes. I think that may be what's holding it up. I don't know if that's a deal breaker if it comes to that.

But I would just say that, you know, these things aren't all decided based on the merit of the case here. You know, being right is not enough in these debates, right? It's who controls the narrative, who controls the blame. This is a lot about how people feel more generally about border security.

And whatever the holes in his arguments, the president has made border security the master narrative that Republicans and Democrats are negotiating about right now. And I wonder whether Democrats, certainly enough of them, want to force him into a posture of a national emergency to make him look worse.

CAMEROTA: OK, Nia, let's move on to what's going on in Virginia. So the governor --

HENDERSON: Do we have to?

CAMEROTA: Very good. Ralph Northam says -- and he's basically digging in, despite all of these calls from Democratic leaders who say that it is time for him to step down because of that yearbook photo. But here is what he said this weekend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RALPH NORTHAM (D), VIRGINIA: Right now Virginia needs someone that can heal. There's no better person to do that than a doctor. Virginia also needs someone who is strong, who has empathy, who has courage, and who has a moral compass. And that's why I'm not going anywhere.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: So can he weather this? Can he just stay, stick to his guns and not go anywhere?

HENDERSON: I think can he. And I think we've seen over this last week he's just basically powering through. He's on the job. Obviously, other folks in the administration, other elected officials have had their own issues, including a lieutenant-governor who would succeed him if he were to resign.

So, yes, I think that Saturday press conference, where he basically also thought he was going to moonwalk at some point, he also said that he was going to stay. He felt like he's the best person to heal Virginia.

And I think in that interview he said partly he thinks he's the best person to heal Virginia because he's a doctor. I mean, the issue is, is he the best person to kind of, I think, racially heal Virginia? Which is a bit of an abstract idea there. A lot of kind of moments in that press conference where he talked about indentured servitude when he really was talking about slavery.

So he's certainly not the most articulate person when it comes to talking about race and Virginia's racist past and its somewhat racist present. So we'll see.

But I think he has made a very strong position here that he's going to stay; and there is no mechanism to force him to resign or impeach him, given that the GOP essentially says that the constitution there doesn't really allow them to do that. So I bet he stays.

GREGORY: I've -- I've talked to some folks advising him and what they're pointing to is some polling over the weekend in "The Washington Post" that 58 percent of African- Americans think he should stay in his job in Virginia.

They're hanging their hat on that this morning, saying that he can perhaps power through this with the right kind of message, which would be astonishing, given that the entire Democratic establishment is against him and has called on him to resign.

But as Nia suggests, there's other complications right now in terms of Virginia politics, Democratic politics in a state that could get bluer if Democrats all of a sudden are kicked out of power.

BERMAN: Well, look, and Kirsten --

GREGORY: I mean could get redder. Get redder. I mean, people have said, "Well, where are the Democratic national candidates on this?" They've all come forward, and they've made statements on Northam. And I think all of them basically have said they think Northam should resign.

And now they've all come forward on the lieutenant-governor, Justin Fairfax, who had two women have come forward with on-the-record accusations of rape in 2000 and 2004. Now all the national Democrats are saying he, too, should step aside.

The things is, is that they can't force him at that point. They're going to do in Virginia, I think, what they're going to do.

POWERS: Yes, I think that's right. I mean, my position on this is the same as it was with Brett Kavanaugh.

Which is, I think, when these allegations come forward, they should be taken seriously; and there should be an investigation.

I actually don't think just, you know, because there's been allegations, that the person should immediately step down. I mean, I -- they sound like very credible allegations to me. But we need to have an investigation that's more than just media than just the media investigating it. Right?

I mean, that there have been media stories. But you're right. The position of the Democratic Party is that he should immediately step down the same way that the position of the Democratic Party is about the governor. But there's no way to force them to do anything.

[07:15:07] GREGORY: But what's interesting, think about in the Kavanaugh situation toward the end, right? There was all this focus on an FBI investigation. Can we get a real FBI investigation? That's what the lieutenant governor is calling for now, but he is doing all of that in the face of not just all Democrats calling on him -- not all. There began to be some Democrats calling for him, including former Governor Terry McAuliffe. And now there are some in the state house who are moving toward impeachment.

So all of a sudden, you're in a situation of Virginia, where the governor may be in a stronger position than his lieutenant governor.

CAMEROTA: Things keep shifting. I mean, every day. We'll just see what happens. This is not a static situation in Virginia.

Thank you all. Great to talk to you.

BERMAN: All right. Can congressional negotiators get back to the table and find some kind of deal before a new shutdown forces 800,000 workers out without paychecks? A Democrat on the Budget Committee joins us next.

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BERMAN: A new shutdown clock is ticking. Members of a bipartisan conference committee say talks about border security have broken down. With just four days, could another government shutdown be a reality on Friday?

[07:20:10] Joining me now is Democratic Congressman Dan Kildee. He's the chief deputy whip on the Ways and Means Committee, as well.

Congressman, thank you so much for being with us. Our understanding is that Democrats want to limit the number of beds that ICE can have in this country for people detained or arrested in the interior. Why is that important?

REP. DAN KILDEE (D), CHIEF DEPUTY WHIP: Well, because, first of all, a budget say statement of priorities. These are budget debates.

And what we've been saying all along is that we don't want this administration to use those detention beds as a way of punishing people who come to this country seeking asylum or somehow seeking safe haven. They've been doing that. We want them to prioritize the use of those beds for people who are dangerous.

And this is all being negotiated in the context of the president asking for something that we question, and we think that, as he has said, if we're willing to negotiate, they ought to be willing to consider some of our priorities in order for him to get some of his priorities met. That's been the discussion over the last several days.

I spoke to one of the conferees on Saturday. He felt like progress was being made, and there was good-faith discussion of this very subject. But now perhaps the president's sending signals that it's not something that he will accept.

I hope that we can kind of put aside some of these differences and come to some common ground. We will have to accept the fact there could be something we don't like, the Republicans will have to accept something they don't like, that's the nature of compromise.

BERMAN: Is this issue for you, though, the number of beds that ICE can detain undocumented immigrants, is that a hill worth dying on? Is that, in and of itself, worth a shutdown if that's the holdup?

KILDEE: Well, look, I mean, the president and Republicans have indicated that they're willing to give on some area that's important to us. This is the one where the negotiation has sort of led to.

So it's important that we -- if we're going to have a balanced agreement that some of our priorities are adhered to. If they have some other suggestion as to what they would like to offer, that would give us some progress on a number of the issues that we're worried about in terms of immigration policy. This is one of them, and it's a really important one. But if they have other ideas, they should bring them forward.

BERMAN: So this isn't it. You're not saying do or die on this, take it or leave it?

KILDEE: Well, I don't want to get ahead of the conferees. They're trying to work this out. All I can say is this is a priority for us. The president has, I think, abused -- and I think many of us believe this, abused the ability to detain people who are not a danger, but to do it in a way that is intended, essentially, to be punitive to those people who are coming here to seek --

BERMAN: I get that. Republicans have --

KILDEE: -- safe harbor. BERMAN: -- apparently said, though, that, "OK, we'll limit the number

but not for violent criminals." Violent criminals, there will no limit for that number. Would that be OK?

KILDEE: The issue that we've been raising is the number of beds that are available, forcing the administration to prioritize the use of those beds, which we naturally believe would force them to be used for actual people who may present some sort of risk or danger.

BERMAN: Gotcha. And before you were saying that Democrats are giving on issues that are important to the president. Do I take that to mean that, at that at this point, Democrats will provide some new funding for new border barriers?

KILDEE: That's been the focus of the discussion. And many of us have signaled for some time that, as long as it's reasonable, and as long as it's supported by the professionals, that we're willing to give and maybe go further than we otherwise would, if in fact, this is a true good faith negotiation where some of the priorities that we care about will be -- will be addressed, as well.

BERMAN: Congressman, I want to ask you about something that one of your new colleagues put on Twitter over the weekend.

Representative Ilhan Omar of Minnesota, freshly elected member of Congress from that state, she did some retweets where she talked about what many people perceive to be as Jewish money. Glen Greenwald of "The Intercept" put out a note that says, "Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy threatens punishment for Ilhan, Minnesota, and Rashida over their criticisms of Israel. It's stunning how much time U.S. political leaders spend defending foreign nations, even if it means attacking free speech rights for Americans."

She put out a statement that said, "It's all about the Benjamins, baby."

Now, people look at that and say, is there a member of Congress, a Democratic member of Congress here saying that somehow Jewish money is controlling thought?

KILDEE: Well, I haven't seen those comments, and obviously, that's not something that I would agree with or associate myself with. I assume she's using the vernacular saying it's just about money.

BERMAN: Right. But that's --

KILDEE: Unfortunately, in Washington --

BERMAN: There are people that look at that and say that's the problem here. What she's insinuating or implying directly is that Jewish money is somehow controlling certain Democrats and people's positions toward Israel. And there are those who look at that and say, isn't that just like saying George Soros is pulling the strings here or Michael Bloomberg is pulling the strings here. Veiled anti-Semitism, they'll note. [07:25:19] KILDEE: I wouldn't take it as anti-Semitism. I would say

that she probably objects to the fact that when it comes to issues around foreign policy or when it comes to issue, specifically, Israel, there are a lot of interests, a lot of folks who make campaign contributions based on a person's position on Israel.

I think we ought to be careful not to construe that in anything other than a concern about the fact that money has undue influence on political decision making.

I know Congresswoman Omar. I don't believe that she would harbor those sorts of views as they've been characterized. But obviously, it's a problem that she sees that she wants to address.

But I don't think we have you had go too far in trying to make judgments about whether there's some anti-Semitism involved in that. She just may to the fact that too much money is involved in these decisions.

BERMAN: Congressman Max Rhodes from New York said: "When someone uses hateful and offensive tropes against people of any faith, I will not be silent. Congresswoman Omar's statements are deeply hurtful to Jews," including myself, he went on to say. But that's not something -- you don't feel that Congressman Rhodes is right?

KILDEE: Well, I haven't seen the comments or the statements so I ought not go too far in trying to make judgments about it. But I know both of those members of Congress and know them to be good people. I just think sometimes we've got to tamp down a bit of the rhetoric when characterizing what people are saying and not make assumptions that take us too far.

BERMAN: You were on the Ways and Means Committee. There were interesting hearings last week about the president's tax returns. There are some on the left who think that the chairman of the Ways and Means Committee, Richie Neal, is waiting too long to go after those returns. What's the hold up?

KILDEE: Well, I don't think there is a hold up. This is uncharted territory. We have not seen the use of this law to -- to obtain access to presidential tax returns, because for the last half decade, candidates and presidents have voluntarily released those records.

We have to lay the legal foundation to use this tool to access those records and make the factual basis for why they are important, why they're in the public interest.

I know that Chairman Neal is taking this very seriously. I know he intends to make this request. But we have to do it right, because the president's going to oppose this; and we assume he'll challenge it as far as can he.

We need to make sure that we're doing this in the proper fashion so that we don't miss the opportunity to actually get our hands on these returns and reveal for the public, if it's necessary, what the president's interests truly are, to make sure that public decision making is not affected by his private interests.

BERMAN: I understand. I wanted to give you a chance to mark a huge passing for your state and country: Congressman John Dingell, who will be laid to rest this week in Michigan. Obviously, a towering figure in Michigan state politics.

What will be your enduring memories of the congressman?

KILDEE: Well, it was just an incredible honor to serve with him side by side in my first term. I've known him, you know, virtually all of my life. The impact that he has had on American politics is tremendous.

But I think mostly, it's marked by the people he brought into the political process. I can't tell you how many people I met who said that they either worked for Congressman Dingell or interned for him and were moved to stay in politics, to stay in government, because they saw that you can be a good person and still be in this business.

And obviously, my heart goes out to my colleague, Congresswoman Debbie Dingell, his wife, who succeeded him. She continues his legacy in many ways. But I know it's a really tough time for the family; and I hope they find some peace in all of the great memories that people are sharing about Congressman Dingell in the -- in the last few days.

BERMAN: Decades of memories. I think decades of laughs and smiles and also legislative accomplishment.

Congressman Dan Kildee, great to have you with us. Appreciate it.

KILDEE: For sure.

BERMAN: Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: All right, John. Jeff Bezos says the "National Enquirer" tried to blackmail and extort him. The "National Enquirer" claims that their threats were part of negotiations, not blackmail. A "National Enquirer" insider next on how the company operates.

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