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President Trump and Beto O'Rourke to Hold Dueling Rallies in El Paso, Texas; Negotiations Appear to Stall between Democrats and Republicans Ahead of Possible Government shutdown. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired February 11, 2019 - 8:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight President Trump and a potential 2020 challenger, Beto O'Rourke, they are going to holding dueling rallies in El Paso, Texas. The president has said some inaccurate things about that border city. He claimed in his State of the Union that before a wall was built there, crime was rampant. It wasn't. CNN's Lauren Fox is live on Capitol Hill with the latest in these discussions, these conference committee members not talking as far as we can tell, Lauren.

LAUREN FOX, CNN POLITICS CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: That's right, John. There is an impasse up on Capitol Hill when it comes to that border security money. There are two sticking points that Democrats and Republicans were not able to resolve over the weekend. One of them, how much money to give the president for his border wall. The other, how many detention beds to allow. Democrats want to cap the number of detention beds. Republicans saying that that is a nonstarter.

So where do they go from here? The conference committee is not scheduled to meet as of now, today, which is, of course, concerning given that that deadline is coming up on Friday. Democrats and Republicans may have to look at short-term options to overt a government shutdown. And the White House is not promising there won't be a government shutdown. Here's what the president's Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We cannot definitively rule out a government shutdown at the end of this week?

MICK MULVANEY, INCOMING ACTING WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: You absolutely cannot, and here's why. Let's say for sake of this discussion that the Democrats prevail and the hardcore leftwing Democrats prevail. There was a democrat congresswoman who put out a tweet about zero dollars for DHS. Let's say that the hardcore leftwing of the Democrat Party prevails in this negotiation and they put a bill on the president's desk with, say, zero money for the wall, or $800 million, some absurdly low number. How does he sign that? He cannot in good faith sign that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOX: The president of the United States, tonight, of course, in El Paso trying to convince people to support his border wall. He will be having a dueling match with the democrat Beto O'Rourke, a former congressman, who will also be holding a rally tonight in El Paso. John and Alisyn?

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Lauren, thank you very much.

Joining us now is Nia-Malika, CNN senior political reporter, Joe Lockhart, former Clinton White House press secretary, and Mark McKinnon, former senior adviser to the George W. Bush and McCain campaigns and creator, executive producer, and "The Circus," which airs Sunday nights on Showtime. I know you have a little clip for us that we will get to momentarily. Great to see all of you.

Joe, it's deja vu all over again. Here we are again with our countdown clock talking about how many days they have, just four, left to figure out the government shutdown. And I'm just wondering, has anything changed this time around given the Democrats do seem to have new demands about beds and how many people ICE can detain that they would be shouldering the blame. Has the calculus shifted this week?

JOE LOCKHART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't know that they'll be shouldering the blame. I don't think the public has been following the conference committee discussions. They will tune back in when the countdown clock gets to about Wednesday. They did tune in to the shutdown and it was a problem for Trump. This is a typical conference committee negotiation. It looks like the Democrats have given a little bit on border security and providing some, without giving them to the whole concept.

CAMEROTA: What did they give, more money?

LOCKHART: More money. And in return, Mulvaney was just talking about the hard left of the Democratic Party. Nancy Pelosi is not the hard left of the Democratic Party. This proposal is a moderate proposal on ICE detention. There are people in the democratic people who want to abolish ICE. It's a ridiculous idea, but limiting the number of beds makes ICE go out and not act indiscriminately. It makes them go out and act strategically.

CAMEROTA: After the criminals.

LOCKHART: After the criminals. So that seems to be a new piece in the discussion.

CAMEROTA: It is.

LOCKHART: It is a new piece in the discussion. But again, in any negotiation, when you give something, you expect something back, except with Trump, who says I get everything or nothing.

BERMAN: What do you make of the fact that it is apparently a new part of this discussion, Mark? And I talked to Dan Kildee, the chief deputy whip among the Democrats the last hour, and he said the situation is this. We're giving something in these negotiations, hinting, I think, Democrats will allow some new money for some new barriers. We're giving that. We want something in return. In return what they way is a Democratic priority where there are fewer detentions in the interior.

MARK MCKINNON, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO GEORGE W. BUSH AND MCCAIN CAMPAIGNS: If that's right and if they're willing to give something and something can be called a wall or a fence or something that gets into the semantics for Republicans and Trump, then that could be a deal.

CAMEROTA: So Nia, this is -- as Joe just said, this is standard negotiation. But it doesn't feel that way, because the stakes are so high and because we've just come off this government shutdown, and because we know that President Trump has such an unorthodox way of negotiating, it doesn't feel like what's happening right now is standard operating procedure.

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: I think that's right. And the big question kind of off on the side here is, a, whether or not the president even wants a deal or does he want Democrats as a permanent foil. If you hear him talk about Democrats, he essentially says they're for open borders. That they're captive of the far left.

[08:05:03] So it's hard to imagine him sitting down and signing a bill where there is compromise between the Democrats and Republicans. And you, obviously, heard him talk about, too, this idea that he's been setting the table for a national emergency. And we imagine that when he goes down to El Paso this evening, he's going to be further setting that table in the way we've already heard him talk about the dangers of these folks coming from the southern border. This is a national emergency and national security threat to America's families. Much of the data doesn't support many of the things he said.

But that, I think, has been what's hanging over these negotiations, making them feel not like most negotiations. And, of course, if you are one of those 800,000 federal workers or contractors, it must feel very, very scary at this point.

MCKINNON: The problem for the president is he's closer and closer to pulling the trigger on a national emergency. And that's problematic, because not only do the Democrats oppose it. There's Republicans that oppose it, and your old friend Hillary Clinton talked to us about that.

BERMAN: Let's listen to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON, (D) FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I just don't think you should call national emergencies unless there truly is a national emergency. There's no national emergency at our border. And he's frustrated because he can't even convince his own party to support his requests. And he shouldn't be breaking new ground and causing new precedents that really could come back to not only haunt him but haunt our country. So he should go through regular order.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BERMAN: So I think one of the things that's upsetting the Democrats is they're realizing no matter what the conferees agree to, no matter what deal is made, it does seem the president is preparing to declare just the emergency that Hillary Clinton and even some Republicans are warning against.

MCKINNON: That's right. But as she pointed out, and as I've heard from a lot of my old friends on the Hill, Republican senators, a lot of them won't like that option. And then that creates all kinds of new problems, too. So I hope that the legislative morass gets untangled somehow in the next four days because I think Trump will go to the emergency option if he has to.

CAMEROTA: It's also interesting, you heard her say even Republicans won't go along with it. But they are going along with his demands right now, Joe. But when Republicans controlled Congress, this didn't come up. This could have been resolved then.

LOCKHART: I think they're uncomfortable with it but they won't oppose the president. Donald Trump has managed to seize control of the Republican Party, and all of these men and women, and particularly in the Senate, know when they face re-election in 2020, if Trump says you've crossed me, they're going to have a hard time winning.

I think there's a little bit of context for all of this, and it's been forgotten a little bit. Trump made immigration and the wall the central issue of the midterms. The people spoke. Democrats swept into power in Washington. So when we talk about leverage, the Republicans have very little leverage. I think it's clear to make this about ICE beds and a new issue and all that, but the public doesn't support the president on the wall, and the people have spoken. And I think, in the end, he will shoulder the blame if he decides to shut the government down.

MCKINNON: You know who is going to speak on it tonight in El Paso? Beto O'Rourke.

BERMAN: What about that?

MCKINNON: That's going to be really interesting. He's coming off his Emo tour and now he's going to get on an issue he's passionate about, not only passionate about. It's his backyard. I think this is an opportunity for Beto O'Rourke to get back in the game.

BERMAN: And Nia, when you're watching these dueling events tonight, what are you looking for? And let's just be clear, the president going to El Paso four days before this shutdown, I'm not sure that's going to help in the negotiations.

HENDERSON: I think that's right. And we've seen the president do that before, have a big televised moment before or during these negotiations. Yes, I think the Beto thing is going to be fascinating to watch. What kind of crowd does he draw? He's obviously been with Oprah this last week. A lot of that hasn't aired. Does he seem presidential? This will be his really first big foray into politics right now. He's given some interviews. He didn't seem to know much about policy in terms of immigration. He's probably going to go more with sort of big themes, at least that's what we've seen from him so far. What kind of crowd does he draw in comparison to the President?

So I think that's going to be one of the most fascinating things to come out of this evening. He has said that he's going to make some sort of decision about jumping into this race by the end of the month. Whether that's an announcement or just a private decision, we'll have to see. But all eyes are going to on him, particularly Democrats who are looking to see where this field is going to go.

CAMEROTA: Joe, let's talk about what's happening in Virginia. So the governor says he's not going anywhere. He says he believes he's the best person to navigate through this crisis that he's in the middle of. You understand damage control. You've had to navigate your way through some political crises. What's going to happen?

[08:10:04] LOCKHART: Yes, it's interesting. I started my political campaign and career in Virginia, did two races in 1981 and 1982. None of this surprises me. Racism had a stronghold among too many people in Virginia. I think it does differentiate the parties. Everyone I hear from in the Democratic Party says all three of these guys have to go, even if it means risking losing the governorship.

MCKINNON: But what if they don't go, Joe? What does that mean for the party?

LOCKHART: I think it causes some problems, but I think it's outweighed by the idea that Democrats will continue to pound on these people and make a distinction, which is if you're Al Franken and you're credibly accused by women, someone like Kirsten Gillibrand will stand up and say you have to go and the party follows them behind. If you're Steve King, let's slap your wrist and take some committee things away from you.

And all around the country, just this weekend, two Republican legislators talking about in the most homophobic ways you could possibly talk about, there is silence. And the one person that you've never heard from in all of this is the leader of the Republican Party. Have you ever heard him say anything about Steve King, Donald Trump? No. So I think it's a valuable distinction. I wouldn't create it this way, but I think Democrats can make the best of it.

BERMAN: Are the Democrats -- sorry. Are the Democrats learning the message from the president here, which is the way to get past scandals is just wait it out? Just wait it out? It worked for him repeatedly.

HENDERSON: It some ways. And it certainly looks like those top three officials in Virginia are going to do that. There was some sense that there were going to be impeachment articles introduced in Virginia. It looks like that might not happen in regards to Lieutenant Governor Justin Fairfax. They are all calling for investigations, Northam is, as well as Fairfax. I don't know what the mechanism of that would be.

But if you look at the polling, it seems like Virginians are essentially split on this in terms of whether or not they want Northam to say. It looks like he's got maybe a little bit more support for staying than going, a little bit more support among African-Americans in staying than going. There is a sense of pragmatism among folks in Virginia in terms of those top three folks staying, and it looks like they may be able to wait it out, even though you have Democrats trying to draw that bright line, which is saying these folks should go because they can't really represent the state. But people in the state feel differently.

MCKINNON: If all three stay, Virginia is a very important, pivotal campaign state in 2020. And if all three Democrats are in there, that gives a powerful weapon for Republicans to run against those three and maybe take the state.

BERMAN: It's a 2019 state, too. The replace the entire legislature --

HENDERSON: I think that's right. Yes, I think it matters more for 2019 than 2020. No one will likely campaign in 2020 with any of these folks. They can campaign with Tim Kaine. They can campaign with Mark Warner. But it's going to be between Donald Trump and whoever the Democratic nominee is. I don't think there's going to be a big calculus in terms of what Northam did or didn't do.

CAMEROTA: But Mark, do you think President Trump, having weathered all of his scandals, that everybody remembers or doesn't at this point because there's been so many, does he give all politicians now a license to stay put?

MCKINNON: I think that's what they're counting on. They're trying that playbook. And I think to some degree just as a society we've been inured to this sort of stuff because we've just seen so much of it at this point. So maybe so.

LOCKHART: I hope not. Honestly, I hope not. I think when you do these things, politicians should be held to a higher standard. And even -- it sends the message that racism is OK, sexual assault is OK. And they should go.

CAMEROTA: Thank you all very much. Great to talk to you.

BERMAN: Putting the hat on. Job done. Riding out of town now.

(LAUGHTER)

CAMEROTA: The House Intelligence Committee crossing the president's red line, investigating his finances. What do they want to find out? We ask one member, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ALISYN CAMEROTA, ANCHOR, CNN: All right, let's get an update on the Russia investigation, at least in Congress. House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff is questioning whether the Special Counsel Robert Mueller is adequately investigating President Trump's ties to Deutsche Bank.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ADAM SCHIFF, CHAIRMAN, HOUSE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: If the Special

Counsel hasn't subpoenaed Deutsche Bank, he can't be doing much of a money laundering investigation, so that's what concerns me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: All right, Schiff has said that the bank is relevant because there are quote, "serious and credible allegations that the Russians may possess financial leverage over the President."

Joining us is Democratic Congressman Jim Himes. He serves on the Intelligence and Financial Services Committees, both committees are investigating Deutsche Bank. Good morning, Congressman.

JIM HIMES, U.S. REPRESENTATIVE, CONNECTICUT, DEMOCRAT: Good morning, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: So, listen, give us a status report of what the House Intelligence Committee is up to. You know, some people have lost the thread after the holidays and the government shutdown. What is your main focus right now?

HIMES: Well, I think two things are going to happen, Alisyn. First, there was an awful lot of stuff, and by stuff I mean documents we wanted to see, people who we should have interviewed that we didn't get to do prior to the Republican shutting down the investigation last year and we saw the fruits of that vine, right?

Michael Cohen it turns out lied to us, any number of people lying to us. And so the first order of business, of course, is to get to the follow-up that came out of the interviews that we did prior to the Republicans ending the investigation.

The second part, I think, and this is a little fuzzier of course because we're waiting to see what the Special Counsel comes out with. But as you heard the Chairman say, it would appear, and I don't think anybody has inside information because the Special Counsel is not talking really to anybody, it would appear just based on activities in courts and people who have said they've been subpoenaed that, as Adam said, the Special Counsel is not necessarily looking at what might have happened with Deutsche Bank, in particular, and other sources of debt, possible sources of debt for the Trump organization. So I do think that that will be an area of interest.

CAMEROTA: But what's working theory on what Donald Trump may have done wrong with Deutsche Bank?

HIMES: Well, you know, there's just questions about why Deutsche Bank appears to have been the one bank that would lend to the Trump organization at a time when pretty much no other bank would.

And remember, there's also the -- it's not just Deutsche Bank. Remember, there's the President's son's, I believe, statement when he said, "Gosh, the Russians are giving us all kinds of money." I can't remember the exact words he used, but he implied they were getting plenty of money from the Russians. [08:20:10]

HIMES: So the second part, in particular, look it may turn out that the Deutsche Bank thing once we get into the information that there's nothing there, that's the reason for an investigation, but that statement that the Russians are providing liquidity, they are providing capital, that bears some investigation as we have watched over the years, everybody associated with the Trump campaign or Trump administration lie about their contacts with Russia.

CAMEROTA: And do you worry that you're crossing the President's imposed red line about looking into his family finances?

HIMES: Well, not really, right? I mean, if there is evidence of wrongdoing, no American citizen, you know, from the lowliest to the President of the United States gets to tell the government what is subject to investigation.

It is fair for the President and anybody else to expect that there will be no investigations of things for which there is no probable cause, for which there aren't really serious questions. That's fair. We all deserve that.

But again, we're kind of past that with the Trump administration with dozens of people now under indictment in jail, going to jail, pleading guilty.

Not every stone has been overturned with respect to the Trump administration and that's what we need to do.

CAMEROTA: Very quickly, and I don't want to get too in the weeds and this is a little bit, but it is in "The New York Times" this morning. So I want to ask you about it. There might have been this meeting between Paul Manafort and Konstantin Kilimnik, and he, Konstantin Kilimnik is a Russian associate with ties to Russian intel. Here is how the "New York Times" frames it.

"Comments by one of Mr. Mueller's lead prosecutors suggests that the Special Counsel continues to pursue at least one theory that starting while Russia was taking steps to bolster Mr. Trump's candidacy, people in his orbit were discussing deals to end a dispute over Russia's incursions into Ukraine and probably give Moscow relief from economic sanctions imposed by the United States and its allies."

Are you looking into that? And would that constitute collusion from what you've seen?

HIMES: It's clear the Special Counsel is looking into that, whether the committee does it or not, I think is yet to be determined. But Alisyn, you put your finger on something really important. We know one thing, the Russians wanted to help Donald Trump, you know, the Don, Jr. meeting in Trump Tower; the exposure of the Clinton e-mails or the Podesta e-mails. We know the Russians wanted to help Donald Trump.

The question is, did Donald Trump or his people want to help the Russians? And we know that the Republican national platform was changed. We now have these allegations that you talk about in "The New York Times" that there might have been contact talking about sanctions.

We know Michael Flynn called the Russian Ambassador prior to the inauguration to say, "Hey, hold off on a response. We'll work this out." So you know, collusion is people helping each other. We know one side helped the other. Now, we need to learn more about what the Trump organization, Trump campaign may have done, may have promised to the Russians.

CAMEROTA: I want to ask you - I want to switch gears and ask about Congresswoman Omar from Minnesota's latest tweet. Because some people are calling it anti-Semitic. So she retweeted and responded to a tweet saying, "Would love to know who Congressman Omar thinks is paying American politicians to be pro-Israel. Though I think I can guess. Bad form, Congresswoman. That's the second anti-Semitic trope you've tweeted," and to which she posted, "AIPAC." How do you see that?

HIMES: Well, I think, you know, this is sort of part of a larger issue that is twisting up the country now. We see it in Virginia. people in public office should feel comfortable opining on things, but if you have concerns about the State of Israel, make sure, especially given the nature of the history of Israel, the nature of anti- Semitism, it's perfectly legitimate to criticize Israel or to criticize the pro-Israeli lobby.

Just, please, be careful to do it in a way that can't be interpreted as being anti-Semitic. Let's have conversations about race, which is what's happening now in Virginia. Let's all be especially careful about what we say and the fact that, you know, what I, for example, as a northeastern white man might consider legitimate discourse may be heard differently by African-Americans.

So I think this is really a good example of the need for all of us to be very, very specific about what it is we are saying so that we don't come off as being anti-Semitic, as being racist, as being bigoted.

CAMEROTA: Very quickly from where you sit, is the government going to shut down on Friday?

HIMES: I'm still holding out hope, Alisyn and I'm an irredeemable optimist. Look, I would tell you that I don't think so, but we've been out of D.C. They are stumbling in the negotiations. So I don't think so.

Alisyn, bottom line, a government shutdown cannot and cannot ever again be a tool of policy for the government of the United States. So I certainly hope not.

[08:25:06]

HIMES: And if it happens again, by the way, we've got to come together and make sure that this is just not something that anybody ever uses when they don't get that way in Washington. CAMEROTA: Okay, Congressman Jim Himes, thank you very much -- John.

HIMES: Thank you, Alisyn.

JOHN BERMAN, ANCHOR, CNN: All right, so big new entries into the Democratic field for President. What were the moves made this weekend? What do they mean going forward and the new controversial statement from Senator Elizabeth Warren. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: It was a very big weekend in the race for President. The 2020 field for Democrats expanding with two new official entries into the race, and a fascinating new line of attack from Massachusetts Senator, Elizabeth Warren.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELIZABETH WARREN, U.S. SENATOR, MASSACHUSETTS, DEMOCRAT: By the time we get to 2020, Donald Trump may not even be President.

(Cheering and Applause)

WARREN: In fact, he may not even be a free person.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right, here with us now, Kirsten Powers, CNN political analyst and "USA Today" columnist and Astead Herndon, national politics reporter for the "New York Times" and it is said, you were out with Elizabeth Warren in South Carolina.

[08:30:09]