Return to Transcripts main page

New Day

Jury Deliberates in Derek Chauvin Murder Trial; Democratic Representative Maxine Waters Draws Controversy Over Comments that Protests About Derek Chauvin Trial Should be Confrontational; Medical Examiner: Officer Sicknick Suffered Strokes, Died of Natural Causes; Critics Blast Florida Governor Over "Anti-Riot" Law Targeting Violent Protests. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired April 20, 2021 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Washington D.C.'s National Guard now at the ready as the nation's capital braces for possible unrest.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: So what is the jury considering this morning? Joining us live, CNN legal analyst Elie Honig who is a former state and federal prosecutor. OK, Elie, let's start on the charges that the jury is going to be deliberating.

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Brianna, it is all in the jury's hands now. When the jury starts deliberating, they're going to be looking at three different charges. And I want to make this clear. This is not a dinner menu. They do not have to choose just one of these. Each of these items stand alone. The jury will vote guilty or not guilty on each count. They can convict on all three, any two, any one, or none.

The top charge in this case is second-degree murder carries a maximum sentence of 40 years in prison. People sometimes call this unintentional murder. What does that mean? It means you don't have to show Derek Chauvin intended to kill George Floyd. You simply have to show that Derek Chauvin intended to assault George Floyd resulting in the death, and assault simply means a use of unlawful force, here, the knee to the neck, causing substantial bodily harm, of course here being George Floyd's death.

BERMAN: What about count two, murder in the third degree?

HONIG: Count two, murder in the third degree, that carries a maximum sentence of 25 years in prison. Again, you don't have to show an intent to kill. What you have to show is an imminently dangerous act with reckless disregard for human life. When you learn this in law school, the classic example they give you is shooting into a crowd or shooting at a passing train or throwing a heavy object off a highway overpass. Maybe you didn't intend to kill anybody, but you create that imminently dangerous act with a reckless disregard for human life.

KEILAR: And what about count three, which is manslaughter? HONIG: So the lowest count, the third of the three counts, carries a

10-year maximum sentence and a fine of up to $20,000. Again, you don't have to show an intent to kill. You have to show a lower level of intent, what we call culpable negligence, meaning you create an unreasonable risk of great bodily harm. Your classic examples here are driving under the influence or perhaps leaving a loaded firearm somewhere where children can access it. Again, you're not trying to kill anybody, but you create that unreasonable risk of great bodily harm.

BERMAN: So there are three counts, Elie, but there are really two legal issues at the heart of all of them, and these were the two legal issues that both the prosecution and defense stake both their entire cases on. What are they?

HONIG: Exactly. First, excessive force. Did Derek Chauvin use excessive force? If he did, he can be convicted. If he did not, he will be found not guilty on all these counts. The jury is going to be weighing the testimony we heard from a whole series of prosecution witnesses and from one defense witness. It's not a matter of quantity here. The jury won't go back in that jury room and decide whose testimony made more sense, whose testimony was better supported by the evidence.

KEILAR: And in your experience, because this is what we're watching, we're waiting for the jury, what and when are we going to hear from them? How long might this take?

HONIG: So now is the waiting. There is no set timetable. I've seen jury comes back with verdicts as quick as 45 minutes, as long as two weeks, if you can believe that. Now, the jury can communicate with the outside world only by sending notes to the judge. Those notes will ask questions. I've seen juries send zero notes. I've seen juries send dozens of notes. And then finally, at some point, they will send out a note saying we have a verdict. When that happens, everyone will reassemble in the courtroom. That will be a remarkable, dramatic moment. I've been there. I promise you, your heart will be pounding. Everyone in the courtroom's hearts will be pounding. All the country, all the world will be watching.

KEILAR: We will be watching. Elie, thank you so much.

Derek Chauvin's hands -- his fate is now in the hands of 12 jurors. And EARLY START anchor and CNN correspondent Laura Jarrett is joining us now. The make-up of the jury, this is something that took up about as long as the trial itself, Laura. Tell us about it.

LAURA JARRETT, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, Brianna, you've got all walks of life on this jury. A grandma, a social worker, an auditor, people in their 30s, 40s, 50s. In terms of race and the gender breakdown here, we've got three black men, a black woman, two women who identify as multiracial, two white men, and four white women, in addition to two white women who are backup alternates in case something happens to one of those 12.

One juror, a woman in her 50s, she is a registered nurse who works with ventilated patients, someone who you would think knows quite a lot about an airway being constricted. But she's not actually supposed to bring her own experiences into this case. Also, a range of views on racism and policing in this group. One of the jurors, a black man in his 30s, admitted he had somewhat of a negative view of Chauvin going into the trial. The man said a friend showed him a video of Floyd's death and he told his wife, quote, it could have been me.

KEILAR: The jurors are being sequestered. They spent last night in a hotel. What can they do? What can they not do during this process of deliberation?

JARRETT: That's right. So the jury was told to pack for a long trip and hope for a short one because they can't go home to their families until they actually reach a verdict.

[08:05:01]

Now, they are essentially in a bubble. They are going from the deliberation room to their hotel room at night, and they are escorted everywhere by sheriff's deputies. They can't talk to anyone else about the case, but they can call their families. The biggest thing to remember here, guys, they've been told to avoid all news about this trial.

BERMAN: Right. That's not easy to do, but the jury has been told they have to, and I know they're certainly trying. Laura Jarrett, thanks so much for being with us.

Joining us now is Chris Stewart, attorney for the family of George Floyd. Chris, thanks for being with us. I really appreciate it. I know that George Floyd's brother Philonise was in the courtroom for a big chunk of the closing arguments. I also heard that Philonise got a call from President Joe Biden. What can you tell us about that phone call?

L. CHRIS STEWART, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE FLOYD FAMILY: We can't go into the details of the call, but the actual entire family was there. Gianna, George Floyd's daughter, was actually there watching closings. We were all in the excess room. And it was a powerful moment. The entire room, the entire family all applauded when he ended with Derek Chauvin's heart was too small.

BERMAN: What's the state of mind of the family this morning? I know the jury deliberated for four hours last night. They are waking up to a new day of deliberations. What's that like for the family?

STEWART: We're praying, like everyone in the country should be doing. This is a time period where you just have to lean on your faith. That's the only thing we can do because it's in God's hands. It's in the hands of 12 jurors. But it was a phenomenal job by the prosecution, phenomenal.

BERMAN: The defense talked at great length about what a reasonable police officer would do, and suggested that Derek Chauvin was a reasonable police officer. As an attorney yourself, what do you think of the defense closing? STEWART: Well, there were a lot of reasonable police officers that

testified against him in this trial for the first time ever. He didn't have any reasonable police officers come and testify for him, so seems to be hurting his own argument because all of the police officers and his police chief said he needs to be behind bars.

BERMAN: Now after the closing arguments themselves, there was this really unusual exchange between the defense and the judge. The defense asking for a mistrial because of comments made by Congresswoman Maxine Waters, who was asked what she thinks should happen if there is not a guilty verdict. She said that people should stay on the streets and become more confrontational. She didn't explicitly say in any way that that necessarily meant physically confrontational. She did say confrontational. And this was an issue in the courtroom. I want you to listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MAXINE WATERS, (D-CA): We've got to stay on the street, and we've got to get more active. We've got to get more confrontational. We've got to make sure that they know that we mean business.

JUDGE PETER CAHILL, HENNEPIN COUNTY, MINNESOTA DISTRICT COURT: I'll give you that Congresswoman Waters may have given you something on appeal that may result in this whole trial being overturned. I wish elected officials would stop talking about this case, especially in a manner that is disrespectful to the rule of law and to the judicial branch and our function.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Now I want your take in a second on whether or not it should, in fact, be a legal issue, but just as a human being close to the family, when you heard the trial judge say out loud that Maxine Waters may have given the defense grounds for appeal, just how did you react?

STEWART: Well, luckily the jury is sequestered, and they are abiding by the judge's orders. They're not watching the news or media. So it won't have any impact on their decision.

BERMAN: Do you think it was right, legally, as a lawyer when you listen to the judge say that?

STEWART: Well, we all understood what Representative Waters meant. She wasn't talking about violence. She wasn't talking about anything of that. She was talking about speaking up, not just staying on the sideline when you see someone be abused, kind of like the bystanders did when they tried to save George Floyd's life. She wasn't talking about anything out of line.

BERMAN: Counselor, we're all waiting for this verdict. I think the entire country, the entire world is watching this. And I have no doubt that the family wants to see a conviction, a conviction in all three counts. But you also know that there is concern about the streets in Minneapolis and around the country. What does the family want to see this week after a verdict is reached, a verdict either way? STEWART: Change. The passing of the George Floyd Justice in Policing

Act, it has to happen. The Senate has to get that through because it not only will protect citizens in this country, but it will protect the good officers that are out there. It will have a database where the bad officers are monitored. It will make sure that no-knock warrants and chokeholds are banned. It's a good bill that protects both sides. The only reason it won't pass is because politics.

BERMAN: Peaceful change, especially the next week on the streets?

[08:10:02]

STEWART: Yes, because it will be a guilty verdict.

BERMAN: Chris Stewart, we appreciate you being with us. Thanks so much.

STEWART: Thanks for having me.

The medical examiner reveals what caused the death of a police officer who defended the U.S. Capitol on January 6th. More on the findings and how it affects the case against two rioters, next.

KEILAR: Plus, Senator Bernie Sanders and other progressives with a warning for President Biden. Will the president listen?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: More than 14 weeks after the attack on the U.S. Capitol, the D.C. medical examiner has ruled Officer Brian Sicknick suffered two strokes and died of natural causes. Officer Sicknick was sprayed with a chemical irritant outside the U.S. Capitol during the January 6th attack. Later that night, he collapsed and was rushed to the hospital, and he died the following evening.

Here to break down the medical examiner's findings is Dr. Priya Banerjee. She is a forensic pathologist. What are your initial takeaways, Doctor, from the medical examiner's findings here?

DR. PRIYA BANERJEE, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Yes, so I only have what the public knows at this time as well, because the autopsy report hasn't been released, but I am curious about how they separated the stress of the riot from his death. I don't know if Officer Sicknick had prior medical problems, but the types of strokes that he had characteristically are associated with high blood pressure.

[08:15:11]

And, obviously, the stress of a riot -- working a riot can raise that -- raise your blood pressure, even without having pre-existing conditions. So I don't know. I'm curious as to why they did separate the two.

To me, it would seem that the stress of working the riot, being pepper-sprayed, probably precipitated his death. Would he have died that day otherwise? I'm not sure. KEILAR: We do know that Officer Sicknick suffered two strokes. The

medical examiner, though, told "The Washington Post," quote, all that transpired played a role in his condition.

And here is what we know transpired. On January 6th, Officer Sicknick was outside the Capitol around 2:00 p.m., he was sprayed with that chemical irritant and less than eight hours later that he collapsed at the Capitol and was transported to the hospital.

The following evening, he died. So given your expertise and sounding like what you're saying from the high blood pressure, what does that timeline tell you?

BANERJEE: Right. So it's that interval between being sprayed at the riot and his death that makes it tricky. But if you're at all attributing the stress of that situation to death, then the manner should really be homicide.

Meaning, even if there's a delay, like an interval that the stress of the actions of others, which is the riot and him being at work, then precipitated or was (AUDIO GAP) I'm not sure how -- if they're saying the events caused his death or were related to his death. I'm not sure how they came to that exact conclusion where the manner of death is natural.

KEILAR: Yeah. And, look, there are many questions. The questions you have are questions others have.

Dr. Banerjee, thanks for being with us.

BANERJEE: Yeah.

BERMAN: All right. Joining us now, Brian Stelter, CNN chief media correspondent and host of "RELIABLE SOURCES."

So, Brian, this doesn't change what happened on January 6th. This doesn't change the fact of the insurrection. It doesn't just what we knew or believe happened to Officer Sicknick. It really is different than what we suspected at the beginning and over the course of time here.

There is an effort among some in conservative media and on the right in general just to rewrite or to deny that January 6th happened at all. How do you think this will play into that?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, riot denialism is getting worse over time and this Sicknick news is being used in that effort. The media lesson here is that stories evolve. And everyone expects that. Everyone should expect that and know that.

In this case, in early January, authorities initially, mostly anonymously, describe an incident where a fire extinguisher was hit on his head. The indication was he was killed as a result. That information coming from police and other officials, it's actually similar to what we're seeing in Minneapolis and elsewhere. Be skeptical of initial accounts whether they are from police or

witnesses or others. This is another example of why people should be skeptical. But that's the media lesson.

But then the political lesson is there's those -- this MAGA media agenda to downplay the riot, to downplay the assaults that day, the attack on democracy, and any little bit of news gets used to fuel that agenda. That's what Tucker Carlson was doing last night and what folks all over Twitter, the Trump troll army are trying to do.

And it's a shame they're doing that using the case of a dead officer to try to downplay the riot.

BERMAN: Yeah, the insurrection happened, you know? Officer Sicknick is dead, which is a tragedy, to use one to disprove the other disingenuous to say the least.

STELTER: It is. Yes.

BERMAN: Brian Stelter, thanks so much for being with us.

STELTER: Thanks.

BERMAN: So, just ahead, dramatic new video captures U.S. Border Patrol agents rescuing two migrant children found clinging to an island in the Rio Grande River.

KEILAR: Plus, the one word President Biden said that now has the White House backtracking.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:23:08]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): I think it's really remarkable if you look at the breadth of this particular piece of legislation. It's the strongest anti-rioting, pro-law enforcement piece of legislation in the country. There's just nothing even close.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Florida's Republican Governor Ron DeSantis touting a controversial law in his state that gives police more power to crackdown on protests. DeSantis framed the legislation as pro-law enforcement, making violent and disorderly protests illegal in the state, and it also makes it more difficult for local governments to cut funding for law enforcement and it bars those arrested for rioting from posting bail until their first court appearance.

Joining me now is Kara Gross. She is the legislative director and senior policy counsel of the ACLU of Florida.

Kara, thank you for being with us.

You call this legislation dangerous. What about it is dangerous in your view?

KARA GROSS, LEGISLATIVE DIRECTOR & SENIOR POLICY COUNSEL, ACLU OF FLORIDA: Hi. Thank you so much.

Yeah, this bill is incredibly dangerous. HB-1 signed into law yesterday by Governor DeSantis is intended to silence dissent and criminalize peaceful protesters, exercising their First Amendment rights to free speech and assembly.

KEILAR: You have seen images. You know what folks who are for this bill will say. You've seen images of businesses, of properties looted and destroyed. There are owners of those properties that may be for this legislation. They say their rights and their property also need to be considered. They need to be protected as well.

What do you say to them?

GROSS: This bill was the governor's number one priority this session, and it was in direct response to the peaceful protests in Florida last summer in the wake of George Floyd's murder. This bill is not about public safety. This bill is not about protecting the public.

[08:25:01]

This bill is not about violent protests. We already have laws in Florida on the books that protect against rioting and laws on the books that protect against violence and property damage and theft and battery and assault.

What this bill does, it criminalizes peaceful protesters who are merely exercising their First Amendment right to protest.

KEILAR: What part of this bill is particularly alarming to you?

GROSS: So there are several parts of this bill that are incredibly unconstitutional and dangerous to Floridians. One of the most egregious parts of this bill is that it actually emboldened violence against peaceful protesters. So, this bill would make anyone who is a counter-protester or vigilante who engages in violence by killing or injuring a protester, it will shield them from civil liability if they do that under this bill.

KEILAR: Polk County, Florida sheriff -- I'm sorry, go on.

GROSS: This bill is so broad and so vague in its language that it will result in the arrest of individuals who haven't engaged in any violent conduct whatsoever. Under this bill (AUDIO GAP) third degree felony and up to five years in prison if you engage in riotous conduct.

What this bill does is it expands the definition of riot to include nonviolent conduct. So under this bill, if you participate in a protest that turns violent through no fault of their own, you could be arrested and charged with committing a riot which is five years in prison and a loss of voting rights, even if he didn't engage in any violent or disorderly conduct. And under this bill, if there are 25 people participating in that

protest, it could be a second-degree felony and up to 15 years in prison, even if he didn't engage in any violent activity. And that is what is so problematic with this bill. And that is why it chills speech and silences dissent and is an upfront to our democracy and our First Amendment rights.

And, look, this isn't the end for this bill. There will be challenges. Kara, thank you so much for being with us. Kara Gross.

GROSS: Thank you so much.

BERMAN: So, after a number of businesses spoke out against new laws imposing voting restrictions, the former President Trump got mad, so mad that he called for a series of boycotts against major corporations. Boycott Major League Baseball. Boycott Delta. Boycott Viacom CBS. Boycott Coca-Cola. Boycott, boycott, boycott.

He's calling for a boycott, but in the immortal words of Inigo Montoya --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

INIGO MONTAYO, ACTOR: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So, boycott means you actually stop buying or using stuff. But the Internet seemed to find what looked like a Coke bottle hidden so carefully on the former president's desk.

Then, there was some intrepid reporting from CNN digital. A reporter enjoyed a Diet Coke at the Trump International Hotel in Washington, D.C. It cost nine bucks. Hypocrisy ain't cheap but at least it comes with free refills. That's not even a joke. We got two free refills.

On April 9th, another CNN reporter got a Diet Coke at a Trump Doral in Florida. And this is a full fridge of coke at his Las Vegas souvenir shop.

I'm not guessing -- I'm not suggesting this is Woodward and Bernstein stuff that will lead to a third impeachment. I'm just concerned he may be confused. His press release calling for the boycotts includes the words don't go back to their products until they relent. We can play the game better than them.

We can play the game better than them. Unless the game is called really bad at boycotts, I'm not so sure.

Remember, he also called for a boycott of Viacom CBS. By his Coke standards, I expect to see him starring soon in "CSI: Mar-a-Lago." One where they do an analysis of caffeinated false promises.

It's not like this is the first time either. He got into politics by ranting about manufacturing moving to China. But remember this? (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, THEN-REALITY STAR: I have nothing against China. I just hate that their leaders are so much smarter than our leaders.

DAVID LETTERMAN, TV HOST: These are beautiful ties.

TRUMP: They are great ties.

LETTERMAN: The ties are made in where, China? Ties are made in China.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Right. I mean, it's just boycott means you don't use the stuff.

KEILAR: Yeah, that is what that means.

BERMAN: I know you were most concerned by the fact that drinks in the Trump Hotel in D.C. cost nine bucks.

STELTER: For a soda, $9. And cocktails, I don't want to say -- I can't remember exactly what they cost, but I want to say it's in the 20s. Some of them. And some of them even more. You are paying for more.

[08:30:00]