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Nancy Grace
Killer NYC Nanny`s Motive Still Unclear
Aired December 13, 2012 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. We go live. They bent over backward to please their nanny, and she repays them in blood. A loving mother and father of three toddlers ask the nanny to do simple housework after she wants more money. But when Mommy takes the 3-year-old to swim class and Nanny`s a no-show with the other two children, Mommy knows something`s horribly wrong. And Mommy`s right.
Bombshell tonight. When Mommy gets home to the family`s luxury apartment, she finds her other two children, ages 6 and 2, dead, murdered, stabbed to death in the bathtub. Tonight, still on the scene in the apartment, the killer nanny who says, quote, "I`m not guilty," as Mommy and Daddy, heart- broken, ask the question, Why? Tonight, we want justice!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How in the world do you make sense out of this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A woman, a mother returned home to her apartment here to discover two of her children stabbed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yoselyn Ortega, who lives in this building, believed to have murdered the two children in her care with a knife.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s a report that they did take a trip to the Dominican Republic. Ms. Ortega is from the Dominican Republic.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "We spent the last nine days in the Dominican Republic. We spent half the time at her our nanny, Josie, sister`s home in Santiago."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You trust these people with your most precious.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Leo speaks in the most adorable way possible. Firstly, he speaks super-clearly so you can understand every word he`s saying."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She has been employed by the family for approximately two years.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "It was wonderful, although not without quite a bit of drama."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stabs wounds to her neck. Those wounds appear to be self-inflicted, and a kitchen knife on the bathroom floor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could believe such a nightmare.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can`t imagine as a mom what goes through your mind when you hear that two of her children are dead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. They bent over backward to please their nanny, and she repays them in blood. A loving mother and father of three children ask the nanny to do simple household chores after she approaches them about making extra money. But when Mommy takes a 3-year-old to swim class and Nanny`s a no-show with the other two children, Mommy knows something is horribly awry.
And Mommy is right. When she gets back to the family home, she finds her other two children, ages 6 and 2, dead, murdered, in the bathtub, the nanny still there on the scene, acting incoherent. Tonight she`s saying, I`m not guilty. I didn`t do it. But it`s not just me, people. I`m not the only one that says she is pure evil!
Straight out to Brett Larson, investigative reporter. Brett, what happened?
BRETT LARSON, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Nancy, this is a -- it`s a terrible story. You know, I just became an uncle for the fifth time recently, and this makes me never want to hand over that child to someone else.
The mother takes the third child out to her swimming lessons. The nanny doesn`t appear where they`re supposed to meet up with her again. She knows something`s wrong. She goes home to find her two children stabbed to death in the bathtub. And her younger daughter who was stabbed had defense wounds. So she was clearly trying to defend herself against this killer nanny.
And then it turns out the nanny still on the scene, trying to take her own life after committing this just horrific, horrific act.
GRACE: Brett Larson, don`t tell me about how the nanny tried to take her own life. The nanny is alive and well and screaming, I didn`t do it, OK? This is overwhelming to me as not just a former prosecutor but as a mother. There`s got to be a back story here.
Tatsha Robertson, senior editor with "People" magazine, didn`t the family bend over backwards to please this nanny, to make her happy? Didn`t she approach the mother and dad going, Hey, give me something else to do, I need to make some extra money? What happened?
TATSHA ROBERTSON, "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE: The family loved her. I mean, she was very close to the family. They bent over backwards, like you said. They even visited her in the Dominican Republic. They loved her family, met her sisters, did everything that was asked. And then this happened.
I mean, there`s still so many questions. There`s many people who say that the nanny had financial issues. Some people say she had -- she had mental issues. We don`t know.
GRACE: Blah, blah, blah! No offense, Tatsha Robertson, but ask anybody walking down the street right now, they`ll tell you they got a financial problem, all right? I don`t know who would say they don`t have a financial problem, except maybe the top 1 percent of the world who`s rolling in money. Everybody`s got a financial problem.
And what was the other thing you were saying?
ROBERTSON: The other thing is that several people told "People" magazine - - these are sources. These are neighbors of the nanny. They said she had mental issues. Actually, we even spoke to one neighbor who took her to the psychologist several days earlier. And supposedly, on the day, that October 25th, she was headed to the psychologist`s that particular day. The neighbor wasn`t able to meet up with her. So that`s -- that`s what they`re saying.
I mean, there`s still so many more questions, like you said. With these mental issues, why would she do this? There`s no real answer. And that`s what the family`s looking to find more answers, the attorneys. This is -- you know, this is heartbreaking, but just more questions and few answers.
GRACE: With me right now is a special guest. I`m not buying the whole psychological thing because to my understanding, for all I know, she was going for financial counseling, for all I know, because she couldn`t manage her money with this family bending over backwards to give her more money!
With me right now is Jo Frost, the former star of the reality show "Supernanny." She is a parenting and child care expert.
Jo, thank you so much for being with us. You got a lot of fans out there who listen to what you have to say. What was your reaction when you heard about this? I got to tell you, when I first heard about it, I couldn`t even read the story. I couldn`t even hear anybody tell me the story. It`s so hard for me to even leave my twins with, typically, two baby-sitters, and very often, two baby-sitters and my mother and father.
To hear this story is, like, what can a mother do?
JO FROST, FMR. STAR, "SUPERNANNY": I mean, I was horrified, absolutely horrified. It weighs heavy. It weighs heavy and saddens me because as a professional nanny who has a wonderful relationship still, being in this career and as a family expert for over 25 years, right now, families must be very fearful and thinking irrational because of this tragedy.
And I think it`s incredibly important that we look at a whole in this country of child care and the relationship that we have with our co-carers and being able to establish healthy relationships, where we feel as parents that we can ask questions and make sure that we are becoming very in sync with our carers, our nannies, our baby-sitters and our mother`s help in knowing the relationship that we have with them so that we`re able to be able to connect with them in a way and being able to answer those questions.
GRACE: The photos we are showing you are painful photos of the mom screaming after the ambulance when she on a hunch believes that something has gone horribly wrong.
This story is painful but important. This mom had no idea that her trusted nanny, who was a friend of the family`s at this point, could do such a thing. Yes, it strikes fear in every mother`s heart. But you cannot turn away from the story because we`ve got to learn what we can learn from this.
Matt Zarrell, what more do we know?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): OK, well, Nancy, just getting back to the job performance and how the nanny was doing, sources have told "The New York Post" that the Krim parents were concerned about the nanny`s job performance in the month before the murders and actually confronted the nanny and told her she had to improve or they would need to replace her. This is within a month of when she allegedly killed the kids.
GRACE: What do you mean by that, Matt? Give me some more details. I don`t understand what you`re saying.
ZARRELL: The source told "The New York Post" that the nanny, Josie Ortega, was told within a month before the murders that if she didn`t improve her work with the children, she would be let go from her job.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Sarah in Minnesota. Hi, Sarah. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Here`s my question. As I enjoy watching -- this one`s really got me sick to my stomach. I`m really upset with it. But...
GRACE: You know, Sarah, I just want to echo that because I almost couldn`t bring myself to even report on it until I decided that it`s more important that parents know about this than me getting upset trying to report it. Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Well, here`s my question. She`s saying that she did not do this. I`m innocent. I`m innocent. Well, who did? Obviously, we know it`s her. There`s nobody else in the home. So I mean, that`s -- that`s gone. That`s out the window.
But if they knew prior a month that something wasn`t right, why would the - - why would the parents allow the woman to continue to care for their children? That`s what I don`t understand. If I have an idea that something`s remotely wrong, I would never leave the opportunity to have something -- my children hurt in any way, any fashion, if I`ve got a gut- churning problem that something isn`t right. I guess I just don`t understand the length (ph).
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The children were found in the tub.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two of her children stabbed in the apartment bathtub.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: So Sarah in Minnesota`s question is, how long were there warning signals?
Brett Larson, I don`t understand that the parents ever believed there were warning signals. They may have told her she needed to step up her game, but I don`t know that there were warning signals that she was going to go nuts on the children.
LARSON: No, there were no signals. In fact, her sister says she thought everything was just normal. Now, friends of the family said that in the weeks leading up to this horrible tragedy, that she had started to look frazzled, she started to look gaunt, looked like she just wasn`t into it anymore, which very well may have led to the family saying, You need to step up or get out. And as you`ve mentioned, you know, she had been having some financial problems and she had gone to ask them for more money and more work.
GRACE: Brett? Brett, do you have children?
LARSON: No.
GRACE: Anybody taking care of three children is going to look frazzled and haggard.
LARSON: Right.
GRACE: Period. I can`t tell you how many times -- I was up just last night with the children, with two of them. So everybody looks frazzled and everybody looks tired.
Other than looking frazzled and tired, anything else other than asking for more money?
LARSON: No, that`s really it. It`s just -- it was just that, that she looked frazzled and needed more money and had been having some financial problems, but no other signs.
GRACE: What financial problems, Brett? What problems?
LARSON: Well, she was- she was running out of money. She didn`t have the money to pay her bills. She was selling jewelry and cosmetics out of her apartment to make extra money. So she had approached the family to say, You know, I need to make more money.
And again, Nancy, it goes to show how much they trusted this woman. They said, Fine. We`ll give you more work if you want to make more money.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Sue in Georgia. Hi, Sue. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, hey, Nancy. Well, it was answered a little bit. My question was, did she have mental problems? And y`all mentioned that she had mental issues.
But I -- it drug (ph) me into another question. I`m wondering what kind of mental and psychiatric issues did she have? And has she been in and out of mental hospitals? That`s mainly my question.
GRACE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to know what kind of mental and psychiatric issues this woman had and what might have led her to do such a horrific thing such as that.
GRACE: To Tatsha Robertson -- Tatsha senior editor with "People" magazine. Tatsha, clearly, she didn`t have any mental problems that the parents picked up on. And you know, when you leave your children with someone, you evaluate them.
ROBERTSON: Yes.
GRACE: You know, somebody walked in smelling like alcohol or they look dazed and confused, there`s no way I`d leave my children with them. (INAUDIBLE) over my dead, cold body with my hand clutched on your throat!
ROBERTSON: Right.
GRACE: No way!
ROBERTSON: No way.
GRACE: So I just -- this mother did not see anything. The only people that apparently saw anything were people that she complained to about money problems.
ROBERTS: Absolutely. There`s no evidence the family knew anything about mental issues. You mentioned that earlier.
But there were friends. There were definitely friends who knew her for a long time. Matter of fact, we talked to someone who knew her for over 30 years, and that person told us that his wife had taken her to see a psychologist, that she had been feeling strange lately.
She had been -- we don`t know the details about that, but she had really been feeling very strange enough that she would go to a psychologist. And she complained -- we heard that she wasn`t -- she was angry that she wasn`t able to go to see a psychologist on the day -- on the day of the -- on the day of the killings.
GRACE: Well, why couldn`t she go, Tatsha, because she had to work?
ROBERTSON: Maybe because she had to work. Again, this is just from neighbors, from sources that talked to "People" magazine. All of this is going to come out, as you know, but this is what we hear...
GRACE: Hold on. Hold on. Hold your horses! Elder Odom, Randy Kessler, Peter Odom -- Randy Kessler, I feel strange a lot of times. I feel exhausted. I feel overworked. We all feel strange. That`s not going to rise to a mental defense, Randy.
RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It may not. But the question is, what do we do now with the situation we have? You know, the death penalty...
GRACE: No, that`s really not the question. The question is, if she`s considering a mental defense, feeling strange and being angry because you can`t go to a session with a counselor and you got to work that day -- that`s not going to cut it, Randy.
KESSLER: It may not, but the prosecution has some other risks. She have to find that she was there. They don`t have an eyewitness. They don`t have a videotape.
GRACE: Well, excuse me!
KESSLER: There are a lot of problems for the...
GRACE: Excuse me! Peter Odom, when the mom got there, the baby-sitter`s still there, OK?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes.
GRACE: And why else would she try to commit suicide, a failed attempt? That`s practically an admission right there.
PETER ODOM: Well, I mean, that`s certainly strong evidence, but contrary to popular belief...
GRACE: She`s on the scene and the children are dead in the bathtub, Peter.
PETER ODOM: Right. Exactly, Nancy. I`m agreeing with you. That`s probably not going to be where the defense is going. This is an insanity case.
GRACE: Eleanor?
ELEANOR ODOM, PROSECUTOR: Not insanity, Nancy. Clearly, there was some type of premeditation, remember, formed in an instant? She took a knife. That`s a very personal way to kill someone, especially children.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Everybody, with me, star of reality show "Supernanny," parenting, child care expert Jo Frost. Jo, I mean, this mom did not think anything was wrong with the nanny. So that`s why I`m pooh-poohing all this discussion about psychological issues. I mean, she may have told somebody else she was depressed or was having financial problems, but no mother in her right mind would leave a 2-year-old with someone you thought was suicidal or homicidal. You just wouldn`t do it.
FROST: Well, you would -- you would -- well, exactly. I mean, that`s what you -- that`s what you want to believe, that basically, you know, parents are not going to do.
And by all means, the Krim family, you know, had a relationship. They`ve mentioned, you know, that they had a wonderful relationship with their nanny. There are non-confirmed, obviously, stories with respect to, you know, the nanny peddling (ph) for more money, having financial difficulties.
But the reality is the bigger picture, you know? The cost and the expense of two beautiful toddlers -- we`ve got to look bigger into the situation here in this country about child care, you know, and the reality of the responsibility that we take in making sure, OK, that these co-carers and professional nannies -- because there are a lot of professional nannies in this country who take the profession very seriously and do have wonderful professional relationships with their employees (SIC).
GRACE: Out to Brenda in Illinois. Brenda, hi. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, how you doing, Nancy?
GRACE: I`m good, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I really love your show. I really love your show, and I want to thank you for everything you do for people.
I just wanted to know, do they know if there`s any motive or any concrete reason why the nanny did what she did?
GRACE: To Matt Zarrell. What do we know?
ZARRELL: Yes, Nancy. Police say that Ortega had allegedly told them she had resentment toward the family, who she complained were always telling her what to do, and that she allegedly told cops she stabbed the children to, quote, "get back at the parents."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back. For those of you just joining us, a mother`s worst nightmare unfolds. She takes her toddler to swim classes, and when the nanny doesn`t show up with the other two children, she knows instinctively that something is horribly wrong.
And Mommy was right. Racing home to the family home, she finds her other two children dead, and a story that is difficult for many of us to even report. Tonight, we want justice!
Matt Zarrell, for viewers just joining us, give me the timeline. Tell me what happened. Walk me through it.
ZARRELL: OK. So the children`s mother, Marina Krim -- she leaves two of the three -- of her three children with the nanny, Josie Ortega, to take her 3-year-old child and nephew (ph) to a swim lesson at a nearby YMCA a few blocks away. Marina had expected to meet the nanny around 5:30 p.m. at a dance class nearby for the Lucia, the 6-year-old, but when Ortega, the nanny, failed to appear, Marina went back to the apartment, she walks into the apartment, it`s completely dark.
She sees no signs of the kids or the nanny. She goes downstairs, asks the doorman if he`d seen the three of them leave. He didn`t see them. Marina returns to the apartment, she walks into the bathroom. As she walks into the bathroom, she turns on the lights, she sees the children and the blood- soaked bathtub. The nanny is also in the bathroom, stabbing -- and begins stabbing or slicing herself in the neck with a kitchen knife.
Neighbors recalled hearing the mother screaming after discovering the scene. The family was all transported to the hospital. Both children were dead. Multiple stab wounds. The nanny is now in custody arrested, charged with murder.
GRACE: And double murder, and the nanny at this hour is saying, I`m not guilty.
Now, Peter Odom, you were trying to say -- you and Kessler -- that there were no eyewitnesses? The mother comes home and finds the nanny standing over the children`s dead bodies with a knife in her hand.
PETER ODOM: Actually what I was saying, Nancy, is that this appears to be a crime without motive. And I`m assuming there --
GRACE: So?
PETER ODOM: -- that she`s the one that did it and that the crime focuses on what she did and why she did it rather than who did it.
GRACE: Well, earlier you were -- you two were claiming that there were no eyewitnesses. So here`s your eyewitness. So now your defense is there`s no motive.
Now, correct me if I`m wrong, Randy Kessler, but isn`t it true, the law does not require the state to show a motive. The law does not expect a prosecutor to crawl into the mind of an evil nanny like this one and try to make sense or figure out why she would murder two innocent children.
That`s not my job. My job is to prove what happened. That`s the job of the prosecutor. So motive is not required.
KESSLER: Right, but the prosecution has a lot of risks. They had the same problem in the Casey Anthony case because the jury wanted to know why would someone do something like this and they don`t want to believe it. Juries don`t want to believe that --
GRACE: Well --
KESSLER: -- human beings, caretakers, mothers or nannies.
GRACE: That`s not the point.
KESSLER: Would do something like this to children.
GRACE: You and Odom actually have a good practical point that a jury would want to know why.
OK, Matt Zarrell, did I not just hear you say that she had, quote, by her own words, resentment to the family and was getting back at the parents?
ZARRELL: Yes, Nancy, police sources say that Ortega allegedly told them, quote --she did it to, quote, "get back at the parents." She had resented the family for asking her to do an extra five hours a week of housework, work that they tried to give her because she needed extra money. She allegedly -- sources told the "New York Post" that Ortega allegedly said, I`m paid to watch the children, not clean up and do housework.
GRACE: Well, may I say she can rot in hell, but that`s clearly stating the obvious.
Out to the lines, Kristen, North Carolina. Hi, Kristen, what`s your question?
KRISTEN, CALLER FROM NORTH CAROLINA: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for taking my call.
GRACE: Thank you.
KRISTEN: I guess I`m a little confused. How is she saying that she didn`t do it, but yet she gave a reason why she did it? And wasn`t she caught with the knife in her hand like stabbing herself?
GRACE: Tatsha Robertson is the senior editor at "People" magazine. How is she saying I`m not guilty?
ROBERTSON: There`s some -- there have been relatives of -- who said that she didn`t do it. Someone else did it. Of course, there`s no evidence of that. But that is -- that`s what the relatives are saying.
GRACE: Well, Tatsha, you know, that certainly hasn`t stopped murder defendants from making that claim, the fact that there`s no evidence that somebody else did certainly has not even been a speed bump in many defenses.
To Bethany Marshall, Dr. Bethany, you`re the psychoanalyst, weigh in.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, I think there`s a common reason noncustodial caretakers commit child homicide when it does happen. And usually it is to get back at the parents of the children. And since this is a cautionary tale, one of the things I would say for parents who are watching, what you have to look out for is that the caretaker feels deprived and like her own needs aren`t being met and that the children are lucky, fortunate, blessed.
And here the children have all their needs met so the caretaker develops envy and resentment towards the children. In other words, the caretaker has a baby part of themselves that they feel never got met or taken care of. So they cannot tolerate to take care of real children because they resent that the real children have needs. And you just have to watch for that.
GRACE: Out to Jo Frost, joining us tonight, the star of reality show "Supernanny." Jo is a parenting and child care expert.
These facts that are unfolding to me are stunning. Because the parents saw now indicia that any of this was roiling within the nanny. They couldn`t see any of this her, quote, "resentment," her desire to get back at them.
As a matter of fact, Jo, all the evidence suggests that they bent over backwards to please the nanny.
FROST: There`s no justifying what happened here. You know, parents get frazzled with children. You know, nannies get frazzled with children. You know, it`s monotonous day in and day out. But the fact is, as a professional nanny, and let`s make a clear distinction between that, you have to take responsibility in knowing your job description and the relationship that you have with your employees and vice versa. There`s no justifying it here.
GRACE: You know, Jo, I was listening to you and I agree with you. But I believe that the right nanny, the right babysitter doesn`t find it monotonous. I mean, you know, I`ve been raising the twins now five years. They just had their five-year birthday, and I don`t think there`s ever been a single day that I found monotonous.
I don`t think there`s been a single time that I`ve washed their clothes or changed their sheets or dressed them for school that seemed monotonous to me. You know, maybe it`s still new to me.
FROST: Well, routine is --
GRACE: But to me it all still seems new and wonderful.
FROST: It`s a beautiful experience, of course. But there`s routine. And sometimes days are more challenging than others but it doesn`t justify the behavior that we`ve seen and this tragic horrific situation. It doesn`t.
I think moving forward, Nancy, we do have to look at, you know, the type of childcare we`re hiring. Making sure that our nannies or our babysitters or our mother`s help have the experience and are able to take on the real diligence and responsibility that this job is. You know, as a carer.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The woman, the mother, returned home to her apartment here to discover two of her children stabbed in the apartment bathtub, and the nanny of those children on the bathroom floor with stab wounds to her neck. Those wounds appear to be self-inflicted and a kitchen knife on the bathroom floor.
Her screams were heard by a neighbor who alerted police and who arrived and found the children dead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Liz in North Carolina. Hi, Liz, what`s your question?
LIZ, CALLER FROM NORTH CAROLINA: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call. It`s actually more of a comment. I`ve been a nanny for more than a decade and this case has really upset me especially because I couldn`t love my children more if they were my own. So I can`t imagine hurting them. Even if the nanny had problems in her personal life, I don`t understand how she could hurt two children that trusted her so much.
That`s what I can`t stop thinking about, what it must have been like for them, and I don`t know how is this mother going to go on when she put so much trust in this woman and she turned out to be a monster? And I can`t accept that her personal life is a reason. That`s just not enough.
GRACE: Liz, in New Jersey, I agree with you. And it`s even more involved because, Dr. Howard Oliver, former deputy medical examiner forensic pathologist, joining me tonight out of Denver.
Howard, there was evidence of defensive maneuvers by one of the children. Explain.
HOWARD OLIVER, FMR. DEPUTY MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, when you`re attacked with a knife, you know, of course, that oldest child was 6 years old and she was cognizant of what was going on. Every time she was stabbed, it was a horrific pain so she would grab the knife to protect, you know, her face and her body. And every time that the killer would draw back with the knife and stab her, she would grab for it and try to protect herself. It had to be a really bloody and horrible way to -- for that child to die.
GRACE: Back to Brett Larson, investigative reporter. Part of Liz in New Jersey`s question was about the mom. And so many people are claiming oh, it`s the parents` fault. She should have seen something was wrong.
Nothing could be more untrue. This woman did not -- the nanny did not exhibit to them any suggestion that she was imbalanced or depressed in any way. All she had done is say, can you give me more chores to make more money, and then when they did give her some very simple household chores, she resented it and complained about it.
LARSON: Exactly. And you know, Nancy, this is a family that took their nanny with them to the Dominican Republic where the nanny was from. They stayed with the nanny`s family in the Dominican Republic. So this is clearly a family that put a lot of trust into this woman and to have it just completely violated and taken away, it`s just -- it`s disgusting. It is downright disgusting what this woman has done.
GRACE: Matt Zarrell, it`s my understanding the parents have gone into hiding?
ZARRELL: Yes, Nancy, they have. They have started a fund actually for a memory of the two children and we`re still waiting to get more evidence about whether there was a full confession because the reports are that she confessed to attacking the children but not to actually killing the children, although as you have noted she has pled not guilty.
GRACE: So let me get this straight, Odom, Kessler and Eleanor -- Eleanor, so she admits that she attacked them but said, what, that somebody else snuck in the window and killed them?
ELEANOR ODOM: She didn`t have a good defense, Nancy. And, you know, when you look at this crime, you look at all the elements that the prosecutor has to prove, they just have to show that she`s the one who did it and that that premeditation formed in an instant. And you`ve got murder one right there, Nancy.
And when you think of those defensive wounds that we just heard about on the child, oh, my god, doesn`t that show you the severity of that attack and what that little girl tried to do to protect herself?
GRACE: Kessler?
KESSLER: The prosecution has some risks. She`s got nothing to lose by going to trial. There`s no death penalty in New York --
GRACE: Why do you keep saying the prosecution has a risk?
KESSLER: Because they seem like it`s a case she shouldn`t lose. And cases have been lost that should not have been lost.
GRACE: Well, everybody knows you never know what a jury is going to do. But you`re putting the cart way before the horse.
KESSLER: You negotiate.
GRACE: I am specifically asking you, what does a defense lawyer do with a quasi-confession where she says, yes, I attacked them. But I wasn`t the one that killed them? To me that makes her look even worse.
KESSLER: Right. That`s the mental defense pass. She`s got to prove it. She didn`t know what she was doing and she has a mental defense and that she needs mental health care. And that`s what we need to give her, is mental health care, and figure out why she did this so we can learn from it and not let it happen again to others.
GRACE: Peter Odom, what I`m trying to communicate and maybe I`m not being clear is that her half-hearted, her half-baked confession to me makes her look even worse if she had said yes, I did it, I lost my mind. I was overwhelmed, god help me. That`s one thing. But she says yes, I attacked them, but I`m not the one that killed them.
PETER ODOM: Right. Like this crime.
GRACE: It makes her even worse.
PETER ODOM: Like this crime itself, that quasi-confession, as you call it, really makes no sense.
Nancy, contrary to popular belief, the insanity defense is rarely used. It`s really reserved for serious homicides like this one. When it`s used it rarely works. Juries generally don`t buy it, but in those cases where the juries do buy it, it`s because there`s a well-documented history of mental illness either being institutionalized or taking medications.
If I were the defense attorney in this case, given some of the evidence that we have -- we know that she had been seeing a psychologist -- I would look at the mental history and see if there is such documentation.
GRACE: Jo Frost, what do you advise mothers do?
FROST: I think moving forward, it`s important to be able to really dabble into your employee`s carers, nannies, babysitters and business and being able to understand who is in your family, who`s taking care of your children at the end of the day and to be able to ask those questions and to make sure that when you are vetting and screening for co-carers, you look at the experience, you evaluate their mental and emotional well-being at the same time. It takes responsibility, emotionally, mentally to do so with two young toddlers.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I saw the mom sitting on a chair against the wall because she didn`t want her face showing, clutching her youngest child with probably blood-curdling screams. Like, you couldn`t imagine -- you can`t imagine as a mom what goes through your mind when you hear that possibly two of her children are dead.
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GRACE: To Matt Zarrell, according to "The Post," sources are reporting that this was planned out, that the nanny actually used two knives?
(CROSSTALK)
ZARRELL: Yes, Nancy, you`re right. That is what the "New York Post" is reporting --
GRACE: Different knives. What did she do, leave the bathroom and go to the kitchen to get another one?
ZARRELL: Well, it`s our understanding from the "New York Post" sources that two knives were used to kill the kids. Now Marina Krim walked into the bathroom, the mother already had in her hand a kitchen knife that had the children`s blood on it, according to reports. And she used that knife to stab -- to slice herself. In fact she slashed her throat with such force that she reportedly broke a bone in her neck from the force applied to her neck to try and kill herself.
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GRACE: We remember American hero, Army Sergeant 1st Class Robert J. Fike, 38, Conneautville, Pennsylvania. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Meritorious Service medal, Army Achievement medal, Combat Action badge. Loved hiking, camping, hunting, fishing. Parents Christine and James, brother Christopher, his granddaughter Mackenzie.
Robert J. Fike, American hero.
Welcome back. We are taking your calls. Back to you, Tatsha Robertson, senior editor, "People" magazine.
Tatsha, what can you tell me about the mom tonight? How is she?
ROBERTSON: Well, I can tell you that our sources at "People" magazine tell us that the mom is just -- she`s heartbroken. She`s still heartbroken. She`s trying to deal with this. She`s depending on friends and on family members. She`s just -- she`s struggling as expected. And she`s definitely asking for privacy and reporters have respected that, but she`s just trying to get by, struggling. But doing the best she can.
GRACE: To Dr. Bethany Marshall, you know, Bethany, often when you have children, everything in your life kind of minimizes. And I just don`t know how this mom is going to go on.
MARSHALL: No, because there is such --
GRACE: Like there`s nothing left.
MARSHALL: -- a big hole in her life now. There is nothing left. I think what she has to do is really forgive herself.
You said earlier that the family is in hiding. There was no way to predict this. Every act of kindness on this mother`s part towards the nanny mobilized resentment on the nanny`s part towards the family, that the family had more than her. That is what happened. And there was no way for the parents to know about this.
This mother has a hole in her heart, a hole in her life and a hole in her future, because all the hopes and dreams she had for these two children, seeing them go to school and go to dance lessons and get married, and then provide grandchildren, whatever those fantasies are, those things are now never going to happen. So her friends, those of you who are listening tonight, just be with her. Be close.
GRACE: I got to tell you, Bethany, it`s just been devastating to even report on the story. We are only doing it tonight to warn moms and dads out there that are hiring help to help them with their children tonight.
We are remembering Lulu and Lito Krim, and our prayers are with their sibling and the mother and father. Our deep, deep prayers.
Everyone, a very special good night tonight from friends, Georgia friends, Andre, Anna, Sara, Elizabeth, Margaret and Leslie.
Aren`t they beautiful?
Happy birthday to the most beautiful woman in the world -- to me. Happy birthday, Mother.
And coming up next tonight, "What Would You Do?" ABC`s hit hidden camera show. I will see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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