Return to Transcripts main page

Nancy Grace

Jodi Arias`s Defense, "I Don`t Remember"

Aired February 20, 2013 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JODI ARIAS, CHARGED WITH MURDER: When the camera, it slipped out of my hand, Travis flipped out again. He was screaming that I was a stupid idiot. He body-slammed me again on the tile.

I ran into the closet. So he`s freaking out. I`m freaking out. He had already almost killed me. I wasn`t (ph) thinking when he almost killed me before that I was going to possibly die.

I grabbed the gun, and I turned around and pointed it at him so that he would stop chasing me. As he was lunging at me, the gun went off. I didn`t mean to shoot him or anything. I didn`t even think I was pulling the trigger.

He said (EXPLETIVE DELETED) kill you, bitch.

No memory of stabbing him.

I just couldn`t believe what had happened, and that I couldn`t take anything back! I couldn`t rewind the clock.

I thought he was not alive.

I wished that it was just a nightmare that I couldn`t wake up from.

I couldn`t imagine calling 911.

I just wanted to die! I just wanted to go home!

I was on the fence about suicide. I wanted to kill myself, but I also knew that if I don`t kill myself (INAUDIBLE) arrested, so it was one or the other.

I began to tell him things that I thought would comport with what the forensics would show.

I was very ashamed of what had happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Bombshell tonight. After Jodi Arias drags murder victim Travis Alexander through the mud, claiming he was a pedophile, we learn Arias in the weeks surrounding the murder, buys a gun, dyes her hair, tape-records herself luring Travis into phone sex, then continuing the attack on the murder victim, Travis Alexander, with hand-picked text messages painting him as the bad guy, building up to his brutal murder.

After days and days of innocuous babble on the stand, finally, Arias addresses why we`re here, the murder. Her defense -- and I quote -- "It`s all a huge gap." Yes, stabbing Travis Alexander 29 times, slashing his throat from ear to ear, shooting him and leaving the man she claims she loved dead and decomposing in a damp shower stall -- she now says she can`t remember killing him.

This is what we`ve been waiting on, the defense that explains it all. She says it`s all a big blur. She remembers all up to the point where he`s chasing her and he`s going to beat her, and then boom! The next thing she knows, she kind of comes to, she`s out in the desert, driving her car, literally with blood caked, dried on her hands. But she can`t remember a darn thing about that pesky murder!

Let`s go in the courtroom, Liz.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: I was showing him the photos and regulating (ph) some. And at one point, when I was (INAUDIBLE) photos, as I moved the camera, it slipped out of my hand. And I went to -- it didn`t, like, fall right away. I kind of caught it, and then I -- it -- I caught it like a football. Like, it bounced and I almost caught it. But I didn`t catch it, and it landed on the mat and then it rolled onto the tile.

At that point, Travis flipped out again, and he stood up and he stepped out of the shower and he picked me up. I was crouching, but he lifted me up as he was screaming that I was a stupid idiot. And he body- slammed me again on the tile.

He told me that a 5-year-old can hold a camera better than I can. He was -- he was -- as he was screaming at me, there was spit coming out, or maybe it was water. But I was getting wet. And when I hit the tile, he was -- I rolled over on the side and started running down the hallway.

I went -- I don`t know why I didn`t run out of the room. I ran into the closet because the door was open, was my thought.

And so I ran into the closet and I slammed the door. And I intended to run through the opposite end of the door because it has another exit. And as soon as I got in there, I began to run, I remembered where he kept the gun. So I grabbed it. I jumped up on the shelf. He kept it on the very top. I grabbed it, and then I ran out the other door as he was opening the door. And he ran, chasing me, and I turned around and pointed it at him so that he would stop chasing me.

I grabbed the gun. I ran out of the closet. He was chasing me. I turned around. We were in the middle of the bathroom. I pointed it at him with both of my hands. I thought that would stop him. If someone were pointing a gun at me, I would stop.

But he just kept running. He got -- like a linebacker, he got kind of low and grabbed my waist. But before he did that, as he was lunging at me, the gun went off. I didn`t mean to shoot him or anything. I didn`t even think I was holding the trigger. I just was pointing it at him.

And I didn`t even know that I shot him. It just went off, and he was -- he lunged at me, and we fell really hard against the tile toward the other wall, like, kind of near the scales, or whatever those things are.

At this point, I didn`t even know if he had been shot. I didn`t see anything different. He was just -- we were struggling and wrestling. And he`s a wrestler. He had wrestled in high school. And he was getting on top of me, and I didn`t want him to get on top of me because when he had done that in the past, I can`t get out of those holds that he gets.

So he`s grabbing at my clothes. And I got up, and he`s just screaming angry. And after I broke away from him, he said (EXPLETIVE DELETED) I kill you, bitch.

Well, after the gun went off I thought, Crap, because now he`s really going to be pissed. I didn`t know that I shot him. I thought I shot a hole in the wall or something and I`m thinking he`s really going to be pissed at me now. So now he`s telling me he`s going to kill me, and I think -- after he said that -- he had almost killed me before.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once you broke away from him, what do you remember?

ARIAS: Almost nothing for a long time. There are some things that have come back over years. But nothing -- I don`t know if those are things that I`m thinking of from before or if it`s that day. It`s confusing. There`s, like, a huge gap. Like, I don`t know if I blacked out or what. There`s a huge gap. And the most clear memory that I have after that point is driving in the desert.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember stabbing Travis Alexander?

ARIAS: I have no memory of stabbing him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember dragging him across the floor?

ARIAS: No. I just remember trying to get away from him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember placing him in the shower?

ARIAS: I`m sorry, that`s no.

I have a vague memory of putting the knife in the dishwasher, but I`d put the knife in the dishwasher before so I don`t -- I`m pretty sure it was that day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Know where you got the knife from?

ARIAS: It was in -- it was upstairs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Are you assuming that, or do you remember that?

ARIAS: I`m assuming that. I hadn`t (INAUDIBLE) since he cut the rope.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s that?

ARIAS: I don`t think it had been touched by either of us since he used it to cut the rope. I remember I was in the bathroom. I remember dropping the knife and it clanged to the tile. It made a big noise. And I just remember screaming. I don`t remember anything after that, not immediately.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember where he was when you were screaming?

ARIAS: I think he was next to me on the floor. I don`t know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Jean Casarez and Beth Karas joining us at the courthouse.

Jean Casarez, I can`t believe it. We`ve been waiting all this time to hear her tie it all together, connect the dots, explain what happened. You know, just give me something to hang my hat on. This was nothing. Did you ever imagine that she was going to get on the stand and say, I don`t remember, it`s a big gap, it`s all just a big blur?

JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": I did simply because yesterday, she had said, You know, I just don`t remember too much about that day. But she went on today, Nancy, almost all day, saying that when she realized what had happened she felt her life was done. She felt, This is it for me. I have no future.

She was accepting responsibility, Nancy. She wasn`t (ph) saying, I survived. I almost died, and I survived. And as she was thinking those thoughts to protect herself so nobody would ever find out she did this, Travis Alexander is rotting. He`s decaying in the shower of his home for days!

GRACE: Beth Karas, what was the jury doing? What did they do when she first tuned (ph) up about not remembering the moment that she murdered Travis Alexander -- not one of those 29 stab wounds, not the slashing ear to ear, not the gunshot -- nothing? She remembers nothing.

BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION": She remembers nothing. And jurors just stared at her. They were all turned slightly to their left, which is, you know, toward the witness box, and they`re just looking at her.

Now, a few of them would occasionally take notes, but all day today, because all day was spent on June 4th and the aftermath of the killing, they just looked at her. Now, I didn`t see them emoting. I couldn`t see expressions or anything like that. But one has to wonder if they were thinking, Really? That`s all you`ve got for us?

And Nancy, toward the end of the day, she was talking about how she attempted or thought about killing herself when she was arrested in Yreka. She was in the county jail before being brought back to Arizona. And she got ready. She got extra clothing to put under her so she wouldn`t drip to the bunk below her on whoever her cellmate was, and she got this razor. And she did one little nick on her wrist, and it hurt so much, so she didn`t go through with it.

And of course, you know, I`m getting comments from people and I`m thinking, What do you think Travis felt like when she was slitting his throat and driving the knife into him? She had one little nick on herself, it hurt too much.

GRACE: You know, Beth and Jean, I`m stunned. I didn`t think that anything Jodi Arias could do at this point would surprise me. But to put her up on the stand and say, I don`t remember what happened -- 29 stab wounds, slashing ear to ear, gunshot wound to the head.

And we all know that what she says is physically impossible, based on what the medical examiner said. The medical examiner said point blank -- and correct me, ladies, if I`m wrong -- that the gunshot wound was the last wound. It didn`t really bleed because blood was no longer pumping through his body. Am I right about that, Jean?

CASAREZ: Nancy, here`s the problem. They believe it was the last wound, but he was so decomposed when he was finally found and taken for autopsy that they couldn`t really tell. They believe it was the last wound, but there was so much decomposition in his brain, they couldn`t see if there was hemorrhaging or not. They didn`t find hemorrhaging, so thought believed he was already dead when he was shot.

GRACE: Gee, so what -- who should I believe, Jean, the medical examiner or Jodi Arias? Medical examiner, Jodi Arias.

You know what? Let`s take a listen to Jodi Arias on the stand.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once you broke away from him, what do you remember?

ARIAS: Almost nothing for a long time. There are some things that have come back over years. But nothing -- I don`t know if those are things that I`m thinking of from before or if it`s that day. It`s confusing. There`s, like, a huge gap. Like, I don`t know if I blacked out or what. There`s a huge gap. And the most clear memory that I have after that point is driving in the desert.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: Now he`s pissed again. So he`s freaking out. I`m freaking out. I rolled -- like I said, I rolled off to my left and began to run down the hallway, and I could hear him follow. I mean I could hear his footsteps chasing me. At that point, he had already almost killed me. I wasn`t thinking when he almost killed me before that I was going to possibly die. I was just thinking I couldn`t breathe, no air. That`s all I could think of before I passed out.

But it was later on that I realized that I could have died if he`d just held onto my neck a little longer, so I didn`t want that to happen, obviously.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: An incredible turn of events today. After days and days and days of waiting for Jodi Arias to finally work up to the moment that she murders Travis Alexander, when we finally get there, her defense is, I don`t remember. It`s all a big gap. That`s what she says.

Out to Christina Estes, reporter, anchor, KTAR. Christina, thank you for being with us. What does she say she did following Travis Alexander`s stabbing death?

CHRISTINA ESTES, KTAR (via telephone): Well, the details, again, as you`ve pointed out, are pretty sparse when it comes to this. She says she doesn`t know if she blacked out, all of these gaps that she talks about not being able to remember. The thing that is most clear for her after leaving the home is that she`s driving around in the desert and she realizes that she`s got blood on her hands.

She also says that she recalls throwing the gun, the gun that she says she took out of Travis`s closet, throwing that in the desert somewhere, and also that she eventually put a piece of rope that she took with her in a dumpster in Utah.

GRACE: OK. So let me get this straight, Beth Karas. She throws the murder weapon, the gun, into the desert, where it can never be found. She destroys the Spidey underwear that she claims he asked her to wear because he`s a pedophile, to protect his reputation. So that`s destroyed.

The gun`s gone. The rope, that`s destroyed. And the kitchen knife she thinks she put in the dishwasher, not really sure. So she gets rid of the murder weapons, bottom line, and all the evidence surrounding the murder weapons. Am I to understand that, correctly?

KARAS: Yes. These critical items that would corroborate her story, she has gotten rid of. And the gun, Nancy -- she says Travis is chasing her into the -- down the hallway. She takes a right into the closet instead of left out his bedroom, which would have taken her downstairs and out the front door. She goes right into his big walk-in closet that has its own entrance to the bathroom.

She`s able to get on the stool, reach up to a top shelf, get the gun down, run into the bathroom and shoot him but doesn`t disable him. It defies logic that she had time to get up on the stool, get the gun while he`s chasing her. It`s not that big an area. She could not reach the shelf she pointed to herself. So that just didn`t make a lot of sense.

GRACE: And Jean Casarez, let me get this straight. She says she drops the camera. He`s furious. She thinks he`s going to kill her. Even though she`s wrecked his BMW, hacked into his e-mail, his bank account, slashed his tires twice, slashed his new girlfriend`s tires, stalked him, spied on him, and so forth and so on, but now because she drops his camera, he`s going to kill her. So to run away from him in mortal fear of her own life, she runs into his closet? Is that correct?

CASAREZ: Right. Runs into his closet. That`s exactly right. And that`s after he has lifted her up and thrown her down and body-slammed her once that camera hit the ground.

GRACE: What? What were you going to say?

CASAREZ: I was going to say, let`s be real. Let`s be real here. Here`s the thing, Nancy. She can`t remember anything. You know why? In Arizona, you`ve got a jury instruction that says that you can only use enough force as is necessary if you believe that you are about to get killed. So if she would diagram it all and remember it all, there is so much excessive force here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Jean and Beth, let me go straight back out to you where we left off. Jean Casarez, you were saying the law in Arizona, and pretty much across the country, only allows you to use enough force to stop the attack. Other than that, it`s no longer self-defense. That`s like if I come up and slap you in the face, you can`t pull an Uzi out of your pocketbook and gun me down on the street. That`s what that means.

And where did this gun come from? Who knew Travis Alexander had a .25 up on the back of the top shelf of his closet?

CASAREZ: She did. She did because she cleaned his house, so she knows that. But Nancy, the testimony leaves (ph) off that the gun goes off in some mysterious form or fashion. He lunges for her and he falls to the ground. So how do you keep stabbing him? How do you start stabbing him after that?

GRACE: And Jean, another thing, where does she say -- where in the home does she say she fired the gun?

CASAREZ: In the bathroom. So you run into the closet, and then you come back out right where he is, in the bathroom.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you were driving, was there blood on you?

ARIAS: Yes. When I finally came to, I thought (ph) that there was blood on my hands. And I didn`t have my shoes. I didn`t know where my shoes were. I was in the middle of nowhere, so I pulled over. And I just -- I got out of my car. I was really thirsty, so I went -- I had a case of water from Costco in the trunk, so I got some water, a water bottle. I rinsed my hands off with it as well. I got my other shoes -- I had business shoes for the prepaid thing, and I got those out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Matt Zarrell, did I just hear her say she is out in the middle of the desert and she got Costco water? She can`t remember murdering the love of her life, the man she wants to marry, but she remembers four years ago it was Costco water, and she remembers somebody made her, what, a four cheese omelet five years ago. These are things she actually says she remembers, but she can`t remember 20 -- I think I would remember slashing somebody from ear to ear. I don`t think I would ever forget that.

ZARRELL: Yes, Nancy, over the course of the last week, I have seen Arias be as detailed as I`ve ever seen a defendant on the stand in testimony. But then the jury has got to be wondering, when it comes down to the actual hour in question, she can`t recall what happened. She can`t recall the stab wounds. She can`t recall cleaning up the scene. She can`t recall a lot of details of that information. But, as you mentioned, she remembers she got the water from Costco. She remembers she had an omelet a day before.

GRACE: Out to you, Beth Karas. When the jury heard her say, "I don`t remember," when it became apparent that that`s the defense, was there any sign of frustration, did anybody in the courtroom go, oh, dear Lord in heaven? What happened?

KARAS: There were no sounds in the audience. I did not hear that nor from the jury, although some jurors did take some notes.

But, you know, that`s typical. They really didn`t look much different than most days. They just were really, really focused on her today. But this period of not remembering, Nancy, is at least 30 minutes, probably closer to 60, during which time not only does she do all the slashing and stabbing, slash his throat, drags him into the shower, wash off his body, clean up whatever she can at the scene, delete the photos from the camera, throw his clothes and towels and the camera in the washing machine without leaving a speck of blood in the house outside of the bathroom. Not a speck in the house, yet she says she had blood on her in the car. There`s none in the house outside of the bathroom.

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Terry, hi, Terry. What`s your question?

CALLER: Hi, hi. Thank you very much. How can she claim self-defense if she cannot remember? Because if you`re engaged in a fight with someone, it can turn. Maybe she stabbed him a few times and he was begging for his life. And then she killed him.

GRACE: That`s a good one, Terry. Unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, Eleanor Odom, death penalty qualified prosecutor. Also with us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Peter Odom. What about it, Peter?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, the defense here isn`t I don`t remember. The defense is, I had to do this to save my life. This is exactly what we all knew Jodi Arias was going to do, and you know she`s not going to address the forensics blow by blow. I don`t know why you`re surprised by this.

GRACE: Because they`re trying to save her from the death penalty.

P. ODOM: Exactly.

GRACE: And she has given such detailed statements on other occasions. And, you`re wrong. How can it be self-defense, just like Terry just said, Eleanor. If you don`t really remember what even happened?

ELEANOR ODOM, PROSECUTOR: That`s right. I think the prosecutor could just argue that now, and Terry would make a fine prosecutor for pointing that out, too. But, Nancy --

GRACE: What are you laughing about, Peter Odom?

E. ODOM: He doesn`t know what he`s talking about, Nancy, because I mean, self-defense, no way.

(CROSSTALK)

P. ODOM: I`m being objective.

GRACE: Hold on, hold on. First of all, Liz, cut Peter Odom`s mike for about 30 seconds so Eleanor can finish. All right, Eleanor, and, Peter, you can gesticulate all you want to. We can see you. We just can`t hear you, praise the Lord. Go ahead, El.

E. ODOM: You know what, Nancy, I`ve seen this so many times in court where a defendant says, oh, I did this before the incident, I did that after the incident -- oh, I can`t remember that little murder. Oh, darn. I`m just racking my brain.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Where the defendant was talking, and goes and this happened and that happened, and then I looked the other way and I heard the gun go off.

I`m like, so at that exact moment you looked the other way and you have no idea what happened? That`s right. That`s right.

OK, you can turn Peter Odom`s mike back on. All right, Peter, how can -- everything she says defies logic. It doesn`t make any sense. Nothing she says makes any sense. Why did she even take the stand?

P. ODOM: Well, here is the interesting thing, Nancy, the state can`t disprove a single thing she says.

GRACE: Can you put him back up, please?

Peter, I believe that the medical examiner`s testimony was very strong.

P. ODOM: Wrong.

GRACE: Let`s go to doctor --

P. ODOM: Wrong.

GRACE: I think it was. Go to Bill Manion, Dr. Manion, joining me tonight out of Philly. Dr. Manion, you have reviewed the autopsy report, and my interpretation is that the gunshot wound was the last wound. Now why is that?

DR. BILL MANION, MD, NEW JERSEY MEDICAL EXAMINER: That`s because there was not significant hemorrhage around the wound itself. And the medical examiner believes that he probably bled out at that point and didn`t have sufficient blood to make any significant hemorrhage in that area.

In addition, I hope the prosecution asks her to demonstrate how she shot him in the head, because there were no stippling (ph), there were no powder marks or anything, so this was not a close contact wound. So if she`s trying to claim that he was grabbing her and she shot him in the head, I would think there would be gunpowder or stippling burning from the hot flash gunpowder on his head, and there was none there. The medical examiner said he didn`t see it. This is not a close contact wound.

GRACE: And I want to clear something up, Dr. Manion, you`re using terms of art, terms of science when you say stippling. That actually is a burn mark on the skin. It`s not just gunshot residue, is it?

MANION: That`s correct. It`s a burn mark made by the hot gunpowder touching the skin, that`s correct.

GRACE: So it`s not something that could be washed off in the shower, is it, Dr. Manion?

MANION: No. It will not be washed off. It will still be there.

GRACE: And also, Dr. Manion, when you referred to no hemorrhaging to the brain, what do you mean by that precisely, in layman`s terms?

MANION: Well, the bullet passed through the front of the skull and was close to the brain. And normally you would see a lot of blood pool there. You would get subarachnoid hemorrhage, subdural hemorrhage, and you would see at least a blood clot. And even if he`s decomposed, I would expect to find a blood clot if he was still pumping blood. But in this case, the medical examiner just didn`t find any significant hemorrhage, and he felt on the basis of that this was the last shot. This was the coup de gras, in a sense. This was to make sure he was dead.

GRACE: And Jean Casarez, let me clarify something or solidify it in my own mind. When she says that the gun went off, where was she and where was he?

CASAREZ: So important. She said that he had his hands around her waist right then. That`s close contact.

GRACE: Very, very critical. Now let`s go back to Peter Odom. The defense attorney joining us tonight. So, Peter Odom, given her version of what happened, there would absolutely have been stippling, burning around the gunshot wound entrance. There was none.

P. ODOM: You say that. Those weren`t his words absolutely, and those are Manion`s words. Those weren`t the words of the medical examiner that testified. He said that there likely would be. He said there might be. He didn`t say absolutely. And the hemorrhaging doesn`t disprove her story either, because there was too much decomposition for them to say that categorically that wound didn`t bleed out. I mean, and this is the brilliance of what the defense is doing.

GRACE: The brilliance?

P. ODOM: They`re keeping it ambiguous enough -- yes. It`s brilliant, because she`s keeping it ambiguous enough that they can`t categorically disprove what she is saying, even though some of it might be implausible.

GRACE: Everyone, as the Jodi Arias murder trial goes on, as a matter of fact now more than ever, we want you, the legal eagles across this country, to send investigative tips about the case to our e-mail at hlntv.com/nancygrace. Go to the get to know us box. We want your observations of this trial. What are the inconsistencies? What do they prove? What have you caught that the lawyers have overlooked?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: After weeks of seemingly irrelevant, innocuous testimony of Jodi Arias on the stand, finally this week we get to the day that Travis Alexander was slaughtered, slaughtered in his own shower. Her story begins to veer almost out of control. And what I mean by that is that she is starting to catch herself in one inconsistency after the next. That`s what happens when you talk too much.

Let me tell you this. Arias` lawyers better be worried about cross- exam. They`ve taken a very big gamble putting her on the stand. I don`t believe it`s going to pay off for them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why not just dial 911 and tell them what happened?

ARIAS: I was scared and I couldn`t imagine calling 911 and telling them what I had just done. I was scared of what would happen to me. I was scared of a lot of things. I was thinking of all kinds of things, my family, myself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. We are camped out in front of the courthouse. I want to clear something up that defense attorney Peter Odom just argued. Brilliantly, actually. It was almost believable if I didn`t have the actual autopsy report in my hand. Dr. Bill Manion joining me tonight out of Philly, Dr. Manion, isn`t it true that a gunshot wound at close range, for instance, he has his hands on her waist struggling with her, she shoots him in the head, is it your opinion as an expert that that would, in fact, absolutely leave stippling or a burn mark around the gunshot wound entrance?

MANION: It would certainly leave stippling. The burn mark would be - - the gun barrel may have to be pressed against the skin to leave a good flash burn powder mark. But there certainly would be stippling, because if she`s holding the gun and he has her at her waist, she`s not lifting the gun up above her head and then shooting down into him. She must have the gun at her chest, shooting down into his head if he`s got her around her waist.

GRACE: And I have here in my hand, and I am reading verbatim from the official autopsy report, "no soot, gunpowder stippling or ante (ph) gun powder particles surround the wound." So her story is a lie.

Straight out to body language expert Patti Wood. Now, your opinion may not be admissible in court under the rules of evidence, but it`s admissible here, and I want to hear your opinion as to what you are seeing in court.

WOOD: Well, let`s examine the distinction between truth and fiction in her testimony today. When she talks about the camera and him saying that he said, a 5-year-old could have taken a better picture. Notice her whole demeanor. She is absolutely devastated by that statement. It`s truth. Absolute truth. Compare that to when she talks about being body slammed, chased, and him on top of her, lack of affect on her face, no emotion in her voice, and she speeds through that part of her testimony. Fact and fiction.

GRACE: What do you make of her mannerisms? I noticed she won`t look at the jury when she describes certain moments, then other times she turns towards them. I noticed when she held her broken finger up in front of the jury, she couldn`t even look at it. She looked away from it. Later on, of course, she`s gesticulating with it straightened out, and we uncovered photos she posted after the alleged finger breaking in which it`s perfectly normal. What does her vision, the way she is looking and acting, what does it mean?

WOOD: Well, her body orientation overall is fascinating today, because normally you would be looking at your defense attorney. You would be comforted by him. You would be listening, you want to make sure you are accurate in your answers. Instead, she turns her whole body away. All of what I call the body windows, the face, the neck, the heart, the torso and most importantly the most honest portion of the body, the feet, away from her defense attorney. That`s very unusual. Typically only when somebody wants to hide everything do they turn their whole body away.

GRACE: Out to Dr. Ramani Durvasula, clinical psychologist joining me out of L.A., Dr. Ramani, thank you for being with us. Doctor, what do you make of her being able to recall it was Costco water it was in her trunk, but she can`t remember her slashing his neck from ear to ear?

DR. RAMANI DURVASULA, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I think what`s tricky with Jodi Arias` case is I really think she`s trying to play the dissociative amnesia card, like I forgot this in the midst of the drama of killing him. But the problem is, she got it together too quickly after the crime. She cleaned everything up, she got out of there. It just doesn`t ring true. And when we look for amnesia, we`re looking for that kind of consistency, and she is sort of really conveniently pulling this memory loss as a defense. It doesn`t work.

GRACE: Well, one thing I remember, Dr. Ramani, that she said today -- hey, Jean, do you remember -- and Beth, remember this, she said something like the defense asked her why did you tell the detective all those wild, zany stories about two ninjas dressed in black killing him? She said, well, I was trying to basically tell what I knew of the forensic evidence to make a story that would exonerate me. Well, that`s just what she`s doing now, Jean.

CASAREZ: Right. And she also said, I didn`t want anyone to think I was capable of doing that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back. We are taking your calls. Out to Becky, California. Hi, Becky. What`s your question?

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Actually, I have two questions. Do you think this was the first time Jodi Arias`s attorneys were hearing the story about Travis grabbing her by the arm after catching her with another woman? Because it seemed to me like they were blindsided. And will the prosecution -- excuse me, prosecution be seeking this woman? Because if it was true, wouldn`t Travis have told one of his buddies about it?

GRACE: OK. In the first question, no, I think the defense has orchestrated this whole story, and they`ve gone over it and over it and over it with her. So I don`t think they were surprised. No matter how they acted in court. And your second question is what? I didn`t understand that.

CALLER: That if -- would the prosecution be seeking this woman? Because if it was true, wouldn`t Travis have told one of his buddies about it. So they could clearly see that she was lying.

GRACE: Would the prosecution be seeking her? What do you mean? Seeking --

CALLER: The other woman that Jodi said that she caught Travis with.

GRACE: OK. I think I understand. Beth Karas, what about it?

KARAS: Yes, I don`t think that they would go that far. There are certain issues you just kind of leave alone because they become collateral and a trial within a trial, and I`m not sure that they would do that. But issues like that that are important enough, they might. There are just a lot of those. It would take forever to try this case if they tried to put on all that other evidence to disprove her.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: We remember American hero Army Sergeant Benjamin Sherman. 21, Plymouth, Massachusetts. Bronze Star, Purple Heart. Three Army Commendation Medals. Parents Denise and Bill. Sisters Meredith and Jessica. Widow Patricia. Daughter Skyla (ph). Benjamin Sherman, American hero.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: Well, you can`t convict a dead person. And I want to -- I planned to be dead long before this ever even got close to trial.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You know, it`s amazing how so many killers really want to kill themselves. They say they all want to commit suicide. But they end up killing everybody around them. Out to you, Bonnie Drucker. Also joining us from the courthouse. She said she went to the memorial because, quote, she thought it would look bad if she didn`t go.

DRUCKER: Yes. That`s exactly what happened, Nancy. She said it would look bad if she didn`t go. And the reason why she went is because sometimes when she was dating Travis Alexander, they had a whole conversation that if she ever died first and she had a funeral, he would go to her funeral and give the eulogy. So that is why she felt like she had to go to his memorial. I know it sounds crazy, but --

GRACE: Yes, it does. Unleash the lawyers. Eleanor, Peter. All right, Peter. How many times while you`re courting a young lady and you really want to impress her, you go, hey, baby, I`m going to go to your funeral, I`ll even give the eulogy. That works.

P. ODOM: Well, Nancy, I mean, there`s no accounting for human behavior. I know that -- you`re not going to believe, no matter what she says, you`re not going to believe her. And I appreciate that. But I`m not sure you`re really objective about this.

E. ODOM: Everything that comes out of her life is a lie. That`s not a question of whether you would believe her or not, Nancy. She can`t tell the truth. None of it is the truth.

GRACE: Hey, baby, I`ll go to your funeral. OK. You know what? Let me clear my mind for a moment. I want to show you guys a real milestone today for John David. You know, he just got out of the hospital recently, and he crossed the monkey bars himself. The very first time. And happy birthday to Florida friends Theodosia (ph) and Lavonda (ph). Aren`t they beautiful? They never miss our show. Dr. Drew up next, everyone. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.

END