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NEWS STREAM
British Prime Minister Faces No-Confidence Vote After Historic Defeat. Aired: 8-9a ET
Aired January 16, 2019 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THERESA MAY, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: I believe we have a duty to deliver on the democratic decision of the British people.
MAX FOSTER, ANCHOR, CNN: The biggest defeat that any U.K. government in modern times.
JEREMY CORBYN, LEADER, LABOUR PARTY: I have now tabled a motion of no confidence in this government.
NIC ROBERTSON, INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR, CNN: Now she faces many points of pressure.
MICHEL BARNIER, EUROPEAN CHIEF NEGOTIATOR FOR THE UNITED KINGDOM EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION: (Foreign language). The scenario of a no-deal has
never been higher.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What Europe is now saying, we need you to speak with a united voice.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is a time to stop the Article 50 clock and put this issue back to the people in another referendum.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's not pretend a second referendum is easy.
MAY: A second referendum would lead, instead, to further division.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KRISTIE LU STOUT, HOST, "NEWS STREAM": Welcome to a special edition of "News Stream," I'm Kristi Lu Stout in Hong Kong.
JULIA CHATTERLEY, BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT, CNN: And I'm Julia Chatterley outside at the U.K. Houses of Parliament here in London. Another day of
deep uncertainty in Britain as the Prime Minister and her government fights for political survival after a crushing Brexit deal defeat.
Any moment now, lawmakers will begin debating a motion of no confidence against Theresa May's government brought forth by the opposition Labour
Party. They will vote later today, on Tuesday. Parliament overwhelmingly rejected Prime Minister May's Brexit deal by a historic margin. We're
talking 432 against 202.
If the Prime Minister does survive the upcoming vote, she'll have until Monday to present a new plan, but no matter what the outcome, Mrs. May says
she's determined to respect the people's decision to leave the E.U.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAY: There are actually two ways of avoiding no deal. The first is to agree a deal and the second would be to revoke Article 50. Now that would
mean staying in the European Union, failing to respect the result of the referendum and that is something that this government will not do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHATTERLEY: Meanwhile, Europe's Chief Brexit Negotiator warns the risk of a no-deal Brexit is now at an all-time high. We've got a lot to cover
here. CNN's Hadas Gold joins from 10 Downing Street, our Erin McLaughlin is live in Brussels at the E.U. headquarters, but let's begin with Bianca
Nobilo. She joins me here at Parliament.
Bianca, on any normal day, we would be discussing this historic defeat last night of this Brexit deal.
BIANCA NOBILO, CORRESPONDENT, CNN: Yes.
CHATTERLEY: But these are not ordinary times. So let's talk today first about the confidence vote taking place later today.
NOBILO: So the confidence vote under the Fixed Term Parliaments Act is one of the ways that the leader of the opposition can bring down a government.
If Jeremy Corbyn was to be successful and got a majority in a vote against the confidence in the government, then that would give him 14 days to try
and reform a government or trigger a general election.
Now the wording has to be very specific. They are going to be debating the motion that this House doesn't have confidence in her Majesty's government.
It must be those precise words and it's not a pleasant experience for the government because it's essentially listening to hours of debate about why
you shouldn't be in the position you're in.
But it does have this counterintuitive unifying force when it comes to the Conservative Party itself. Because even though they are split on the issue
of Brexit, on all different sides, both extreme wanting a second referendum. Wanting a no-deal Brexit, they do unite on one thing. They
want to be the governing party in power.
CHATTERLEY: Well, that would be a very unique thing at this moment. Unity in any party in this country right now. She is expected to win, and this
goes to your point because we've already heard from some of the key Brexiteers here. We've had hear from the party that backs Theresa May's
government and they're say they're going to be behind this government at this stage.
NOBILO: They are, and to put that in perspective, we've have Jacob Rees- Mogg who is one of the chief --
CHATTERLEY: Arch-Brexiteer.
NOBILO: Arch-Brexiteer and also one of the leading figures who triggered that confidence vote internally within the Prime Minister's own Party in
December. He's already come out and said that he will be supporting the Prime Minister today.
So if you can get Jacob Rees-Mogg on the side and at the other extreme you have Anna Soubry who has been campaigning for a second referendum, she's
also said that she's going to support the Prime Minister today. So nothing can really be predicted in these times, but it does look like she's set to
be able to get through this today.
But the fact that her government has weathered not only a vote of internal no confidence in the Prime Minister, it's also been the first government
ever to be held in contempt of Parliament. That happened last year, as well. Then you had this historic record shattering defeat last night, and
now they're facing a vote of no confidence. This is completely unparalleled in history.
[08:05:03]
CHATTERLEY: Unparalleled, unprecedented. It's just a day after day after day, though. Bianca Nobilo. Thank you for laying out what is set to
happen over the coming hours. Of course, the thing is, having seen the defeat that we saw last night in the Houses of Parliament you would have
assumed at this stage that there would be some change in the game plan here from the government, but that's what we've heard so far.
Hadas, I want to bring you in here. Assuming the Prime Minister and the government win this vote tonight and push through, what is the Plan B
option here? Because right now, none of the noises I hear seem like anything is materially changing in their negotiating tactics here.
HADAS GOLD, REPORTER, CNN: Julia, the Plan B seems to be mostly sticking to go Plan A. That is the Prime Minister's original deal which she still
thinks is the only one that can deliver on the results of that 2016 referendum while also protecting the United Kingdom. We just heard her in
Prime Minister's Questions having a volley back and forth with Jeremy Corbyn who is accusing her of being in denial.
She sounded quite strong. It seems she enjoys these types of debates, and if anything, I was surprised that at one point, Jeremy Corbyn started
veering off of Brexit. That's probably not going to help gather more votes for his no confidence vote and it seemed as though Theresa May and her team
are rather confident as we have been saying that she will win.
But that - even if she wins the no confidence, that does not change the calculus of Brexit and that we don't seem to have any sort of consensus on
how to move forward. Theresa May has said she is going to be speaking to Members of Parliament from across the different sort of parties trying to
bring them all together.
But she risks alienating the other side if she goes too far, for example, in negotiating with the Members of the Labour Party. What about her own
Tories? What about the Brexiteers. She needs as many people on board as possible and then, of course, there is the question of European Union and
what they will agree with.
This all has to be done rather quickly, because by Monday, she will be back in the House of Commons to deliver an update, to deliver a statement,
potentially even to bring another vote. But it's not clear what has so significantly changed that will bring everybody around. If anything, it
seems, we are edging closer and closer to that no-deal cliff on March 29th, which as we all know from the business community, this is the last thing
that they want -- Julia.
CHATTERLEY: You know, there were a lot of people there, Hadas, I think with their head in their hands saying exactly to your point, she the does
have to choose. All the way along here, she's been trying to appease both sides of the Party. The remainers in her Party and the Brexiteers, and at
some point, she has got to choose and she has to find points of compromise. Is there a point of compromise here with members of the opposition, with
the Labour Party here? Where are the points of compromise?
GOLD: I mean, if I knew the answer to that, I probably would be in the building behind me right now. But it's hard to see where that might be.
We find such extremes on everything from the Customs Union to the Irish backstop.
The Irish backstop or the backstop for the Irish border still seems to be the major point of contention, but it seems though, any direction that you
go, it's either not enough for the Brexiteers or too hard for those who wish to stay in the European Union, for those who wish to have a closer
relationship.
I mean, it's hard to see, I mean, we were saying how unlikely a second referendum seemed a few weeks ago, but more and more, it's seeming as
though that might be more likely than we ever imagined. It might not be a pure second referendum where do you want to be in or out of the E.U., it
might be do you want Theresa May's deal or some version of it, or not.
All of that though, takes time. So does potentially losing a no confidence vote, triggering a general election. That would all take time and that
would likely mean that they would have to somehow extend Article 50, extend that deadline from March possibly into the summer. This is just a never-
ending story, a never-ending process, Julia.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, I think the key word there is time and we simply don't have enough of it. Right. What are we doing next? Are we going to go to
Erin and get the sides of the Irish now because the Irish Prime Minister has been talking and - actually, no, we're not. I'm going take you live
inside the British House of Commons with that debate of course on this no confidence vote is beginning.
CORBYN: ... which has now been decisively rejected, was good for Britain, workers and businesses. If she is so confident of that, if she genuinely
believes it, she should have nothing to fear from going to the people and letting them decide.
In this week, in 1910, the British electorate went to the polls. They did so because Herbert Asper's liberal government had been unable to get Lloyd
George's people's budget through the House of Lords. They were confident in their arguments and they went to the people. And they were returned to
office, and it's still how our democracy works.
When we have a government that cannot govern in the absence of a written Constitution, it is these conventions that guide us. If a government
cannot get - if a government cannot get its legislation through Parliament ...
[08:10:10]
CORBYN: ... if this government - if a government cannot get its legislation through Parliament, it must go to the country for a new mandate
and that must apply when it is on the key issue of the day.
CHRIS PHILP, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, CONSERVATIVE PARTY: Isn't the leader of the opposition engaging in a piece of shameless political opportunism?
CROWD: Hear, hear.
PHILP: Which puts Party interest ahead of national interest and isn't he simply trying to disguise the fact that on this great issue, he has no
policy.
CROWD: Hear, hear.
CORBYN: Mr. Speaker, in 2017, the Prime Minister and her party thought that they could call an election and they would win it. They thought that
they would return with an overall majority, and there was an enormous - indeed, the biggest since 1945 increase in the Labour vote during that
campaign when people saw what our policies actually were.
So Mr. Speaker, when the Prime Minister asked to be given a mandate, that's what she did. She bypassed the Fixed-term Parliaments Act, which, as my
right Honorable Friend, the Shadow Foreign Secretary pointed out, designed to give some stability to the Tory-Lib Dem coalition of government to
ensure that the Lib Dems could not hold the Conservatives to ransom by constantly threatening to collapse the coalition.
The Fixed-term Parliament Act was never intended to prop up a zombie government, and there can be no doubt that this is indeed a zombie
Government.
PETE WISHART, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, SCOTTISH NATIONAL PARTY: To the great Honorable Gentleman, if he is successful in this motion this evening, there
may be a general election in a few short weeks and that Labour party manifesto - will they state whether they will be a party of Brexit or a
party against Brexit? It is a simple question; what is the answer?
CORBYN: Mr. Speaker, we are a democratic party, and our party will decide what policy we fight the election on. But in the meantime, we are clear
that there has to be a Customs Union, there has to be access to European trade and markets, there has to be a protection of rights, and there must
be a rejection of a no-deal Brexit.
And I was saying, Mr. Speaker, last week this government became the first for more than 40 years to lose a vote on a Finance Bill and a shocking
first for this government - a shocking first. It forced a heavily pregnant Member of this House, my Friend, the Member for Hampstead and Kilburn to
delay a scheduled caesarean to come to vote, all because of their cynical breaking of trusted pairing arrangements. I think, we need to examine that
and examine our procedures to ensure such a thing can never happen again.
JOHN BERCOW, SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS OF THE UNITED KINGDOM: Point of order, Anna Soubry
ANNA SOUBRY, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, CONSERVATIVE PARTY: Mr. Speaker, could you assist the House, pleaese. This is an important matter. I say this as
a woman. But we need to establish once and for all, was the Honorable Lady offered a pair? I need - I think all of us need to know, sir.
BERCOW: Clerk, reminds me that that is not a point of order. My understanding is that there was a pairing opportunity, order, order.
Order. My understanding is that there was a pairing opportunity, but the issue was aired in the chamber on Monday and again yesterday. The right
Honorable Gentleman, the Leader of the Opposition is absolutely entitled to highlight his concern about the matter, which I know is widely shared, but
it should not now be the subject now to further points of order. I hope that that satisfies that. Jeremy Corbyn.
CORBYN: Thank you, thank you, Mr. Speaker. Nothing demonstrates the sheer incompetence of this government quite like the Brexit negotiations.
Yesterday's historic and humiliating defeat was the result of two years of chaos and failure. It is clear that this government are not capable of
winning support for its core plan on the most vital issue facing this country. The Prime Minister has lost control and the Government have lost
the ability to govern.
Within two years, they have managed to turn a deal from what was supposed to be - I remember this very well, "one of the easiest in human history"
into a national embarrassment.
[08:15:10]
CORBYN: In that time, we have seen the Prime Minister's demands quickly turned into one humiliating climb down after another. Brexit Ministers
have come, and Brexit Ministers, Brexit Ministers have gone, but the shambles has remained unchanged, culminating in an agreement that was
described by one former Cabinet Minister as, and I quote, "the worst of all worlds."
Let's be clear that the deal that the Prime Minister wanted this Parliament to support would have left the U.K. in a helpless position, facing a choice
of either seeking and paying for an extended transition period or trapped in the backstop. The Prime Minister may claim the backstop would never
come into force -
BERCOW: Order. Order. Now, I am sorry, there are orders, there are courtesies in this place. A Member can seek to intervene. He or she
should not do so out of frustration by shrieking an observation across the floor. Well, whether we say shriek or yell or bellow or shout, it was very
noisy and it was disorderly, and the right Honorable Gentleman, as I hold him in the highest regard and I have great affection for him, but he must
behave better.
Yes, but who takese - whether an intervention is taken or not, no, there is no all right about it, I say to the right Honorable Gentleman. The person
who has the floor decides whether to take an intervention. That's life. That's the reality. That's the way this has always been. Jeremy Corbyn.
CORBYN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. But who has confidence in this government's ability to negotiate a future trade deal with the E.U. by
December 2020 after the shambles we have all witnessed over the past two years? This Frankenstein deal is now officially dead, and the Prime
Minister is trying to blame absolutely everybody else.
TANMANJEET SINGH DHESI, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, LABOUR PARTY: Allow me to intervene, in modern British history, Prime Ministers, when faced with even
a fraction of the titanic and calamitous margin that was faced by the Prime Minister yesterday, they have done the right and honorable thing, resigned
and called a general election. Would my right Honorable Friend agree that in the pursuit of power and in the trappings of office that she has now
forgotten what is right and honorable?
CORBYN: I thank my friend for that intervention. As I've made it very clear, all the precedents are that when a government had the defeat that
this government has had, it's to resign and allow the people to elect a new Parliament to deal with the issues facing the country.
Mr. Speaker, let me be clear, the blame for this mess lies firmly at the feet of the Prime Minister and her government, which time after time has
made hollow demands and given what turned out to be false promises. They say that they want this Parliament to be sovereign. Yet when their plans
have come up against scrutiny, they have done all they can to obstruct and evade.
The Prime Minister's original plan was to push through a deal without the appropriate approval of this Parliament, only to be forced - forced into
holding a meaningful vote by the courts and by Members of this House, to who I pay tribute for ensuring that we actually got the meaningful vote
last night in this House.
ALISTAIR CARMICHAEL, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, LIBERAL DEMOCRAT: I am grateful to the Leader of the Opposition for giving way. I understand that he allow
his party to decide whether he will deliver Brexit should he become Prime Minister. His party has already decided that if he is not successful in
getting a general election, he should support a people's vote. If he does not win the vote tonight, will he then support moves in this House to give
us a people's vote?
CORBYN: I am sure the Member is fully aware of the decision made by my party's conference that as the next phase of it, all options are on the
table including the option that he has referred to. I give way to my friend at the back.
CATHERINE WEST, EMEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, LABOUR PARTY: Would my Honorable Friend confirm whether in this national crisis, the Prime Minister has
telephoned the Leader of the Opposition to ask for a meeting to discuss the way forward for our country?
CORBYN: I have not had such a call as yet, Mr. Speaker. I have my phone.
Mr. Speaker, I think we should proceed with this debate. I think we should proceed with this debate, and the Prime Minister's original plan ...
[15:20:10]
CORBYN: ... was to push through a deal without approval, as I pointed out, and forced into it by the courts, but since losing its majority in the
2017 general election, the Government has had numerous, numerous opportunities to engage with others and listen to their views, not just
here in Westminster, but across the country. Their whole framing of the E.U. Withdrawal Bill was about giving excessive power to the Secretary of
State for Brexit at the expense of Parliament. It was a bill that Henry VIII would have been very proud of.
Yesterday's decisive defeat is the result of the Prime Minister not listening, ignoring businesses, unions and Members of this House. She has
wasted two years recklessly plowing on with her doomed strategy. And even when it was clear - even when it was clear that her botched and damaging
deal - her botched and damaging deal could not remotely command support here or across the country, she decided to waste even more time by pulling
the meaningful vote on December the 11th on the empty promise, and it was an absolutely empty promise, of obtaining legal assurances on the backstop,
another month wasted before the House could come to its decision last night.
Some on the government's side have tried to portray the Prime Minister's approach as stoical. Mr. Speaker, what we have seen over the past few
months is not stoical; what we have witnessed is the Prime Minister acting in her narrow party interest, rather than in the public interest. Her
party is fundamentally split on this issue. Fundamentally split, Mr. Speaker with less than 200 of her own MPs were prepared to support the
Prime Minister last night. This constrains the Prime Minister so much that she simply cannot command a majority in this House and on the most
important issue facing this country without rupturing her party. And it is for this reason - this reason the government can no longer govern.
Yesterday, the Prime Minister shook her head when I said that she had treated Brexit as a matter only for the Conservative party, yet within half
an hour of the vote being announced, the Honorable Member for Grantham and Stamford commented: "She has conducted the argument as if this was a party
political matter rather than a question of profound national importance." How right he was, how wrong she was to threaten him before the vote took
place.
I know that many people, Mr. Speaker, across the country will be frustrated and deeply worried about the insecurity around Brexit, but if this divided
government continues in office, the uncertainty and risks can only grow.
GEORGE FREEMAN, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, CONSERVATIVE PARTY: I thank the Leader of Opposition for giving way. When those cross-party talks start,
would he tell the House which of the Scarlet Pimpernels will come? The Leader of the Opposition who campaigns for remain in London and the
southeast, or the Leader of the Opposition who campaigns for Brexit up north? We need to know.
CORBYN: Mr. Speaker, there has been no offer of all-party talks. There has been no communication on all-party talks. All the Prime Minister said
was that she might talk to some Members of the House. That is not reaching out. That is not discussing it. That is not recognizing the scale of the
defeat they suffered last night.
Mr. Speaker, it's not just over Brexit that the government is failing dismally, letting down the people of this country. There has been a
Windrush scandal, the shameful denial of rights and the detention, and even the deportation, of our own citizens.
The government's flagship welfare policy, universal credit, is causing real and worsening poverty across this country. And just yesterday, under the
cover of the Brexit vote, they sneaked out changes that will make some pensioner households thousands of pounds worse off. Those changes build on
the scourge ...
[08:25:01]
CHATTERLEY: So you have been listening to the start of the debate ahead of a vote of no confidence in this government, called by Opposition Leader
Jeremy Corbyn. That's set to continue for hours to come.
Let's get some context here and bring in our panel of experts. We are joined by CNN political contributor, Robin Oakley and political commentator
Carole Walker.
I don't even know where to start. I mean, there are all sorts of blows being thrown on both sides here. A Frankenstein deal is dead. A zombie
government - on any other day we would be talking about the crushing deal defeat, but it's almost like for the Conservatives, nothing has changed.
ROBIN OAKLEY, POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR, CNN: Yes, welcome to the wonderland of Parliamentary politics.
CHATTERLEY: I was waiting for my unicorns to go past this route. What's the game plan here?
OAKLEY: Absolutely. I mean, there's Theresa May who not so long ago, 117 of her own MPs voted against her in a confidence vote in her own party, as
leader of the Conservative Party. A similar number voted against her and her major flagship policy went down last night by 230 votes, the biggest
defeat in Parliamentary history.
And yet, Ministers and the Prime Minister herself are conducting themselves today as if nothing at all ...
CHATTERLEY: Nothing happened.
OAKLEY: ... has happened. And this is - the Parliament - those very same MPs, who didn't want her as Party leader, didn't want her main flagship
policy are now trooping into the lobbies today, we can be assured, to say they've got confidence in her to go on running the country.
This being the Prime Minister who has made so many mistakes along the line, who called an election to boost her majority and lost that majority; who
has conducted the whole of these negotiations basically with their own party on an issue which needed to bring the country together.
CHATTERLEY: And this was the point that the Leader of the Opposition there, Jeremy Corbyn, was illustrating in a rather long-winded way, but he
was making the point quite graphically, I think as well, the Frankenstein deal, the fact that it has gone down, a zombie government, I mean, there
are questions coming from the Conservatives here about what Labour represents here, of course. But for now, it's Plan B for Theresa May
assuming she survives tonight, and that's what we think. Carole, what is the game plan here?
CAROLE WALKER, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It seems extraordinary. It seems that listening to the Prime Minister a little earlier at Prime Minister's
Question time, and it would seem as though she's already somehow completely forgotten the fact that she went down to the worst ever government defeat
in British history last night on her deal.
And she was trotting out many of the same lines. She did not appear to give any ground on remaining a member of the Customs Union, something which
many Labour MPs want. She was accusing Jeremy Corbyn of being in denial at a time that he was accusing her of being in denial.
And although last night, after that vote, she said that she wanted to reach out across the floor and deal with other senior parliamentarians of all
parties, Jeremy Corbyn has just been confirming that there has been no offer of cross party talks. And if she's not prepared to in any way open
up to any of their key demand - demands - if she is not prepared to give on any of her red lines and she's not even actually offering talks with the
opposition, then where this new consensus around a fresh approach to Brexit comes from?
It seems extraordinary, and just to add one other thing, the other thing she seems to have ruled out is any revoking or any delay to Article 50. So
we have 72 days to go until the U.K. leaves the European Union and no sign yet of any fresh plan from the government.
CHATTERLEY: And the U.K. businesses ...
OAKLEY: And manage no-deal because --
CHATTERLEY: And that's what U.K. businesses have said after a phone call with the Chancellor this morning, they are now managing planning for a no-
deal exit. Plenty more analysis on this to come. As you can see, so many questions, so few answer, but we'll do our best. There's much more Brexit
coverage right after this break. You're watching CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[08:30:00]
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back. I'm Julia Chatterley live from London. This Frankenstein deal is now officially dead, strong words from British
Opposition Labour Party Leader Jeremy Corbyn after Prime Minister Theresa May's Brexit deal suffered a catastrophic defeat in Parliament.
Lawmakers are now debating a no confidence motion in her leadership and of course, the government brought by Corbyn immediately after the rejection of
the Prime Minister's Brexit deal by the largest margin in history.
Prime Minister May is expected to win the vote and survive as Prime Minister for now, but the key point here is we are no closer to clarity on
what happens with Brexit. March 29th feels very close at this moment.
Let's bring back our panel of experts. CNN political contributor, Robin Oakley; political commentator Carole Walker, and Carole, we were just
discussing in the break what the compromise deal here is, because at some point, she has to choose, surely, between the Brexiteers in her party, the
remainers in her party and look elsewhere for points of compromise. She kind of ruled that out in the Prime Minister's Questions again.
WALKER: Yes, what is extraordinary is how the Prime Minister appeared to be ruling out any significant changes to the deal that was defeated by the
biggest ever margin last night.
Now what has been quite interesting, slightly below the radar this morning is how some of those remain supporting government ministers, senior Cabinet
Ministers who want to retain close ties to Europe have been hinting at maybe some compromise moving towards the sort of Customs Union which the
Labour Party wants, but at the same time, the Brexiteers in her government are delivering completely contradictory signals saying, "No, no way are we
going to have a Customs Union."
And I think that is clearly the problem for the Prime Minister. If she does give ground to try to get consensus with the Labour Party, she faces
the risk of resignation from the Brexiteers in her party. If she moves closer towards a hard line Brexit, then those who wants to stay closer to
the European Union will be walking out and the chance of getting consensus with senior Labour Parliamentarians also becomes less likely. She faces an
almost impossible choice as she tries to find a way forward.
CHATTERLEY: But we are talking about - this is if it's new and it's not, she's been in this situation, caught between the two sides of the party now
for more than two years.
OAKLEY: And meanwhile, her authority has gone down and down and down like that. And of course, any more Cabinet resignations, if she does make the
choice between these two options, any more Cabinet resignations would shred what little authority she still has left.
CHATTERLEY: If there's anything left. I want to come back there because we have been attacking the Conservative Party a lot here and I want to get
back to some of the comments that were being fired at Jeremy Corbyn there from the Conservative side, and that was, "Look, let's say you did win this
confidence vote, what is your plan? What does the Labour Party stand for here? Brexit or remain? And also, how would you negotiate this deal?"
OAKLEY: As he has been in a lot of recent interviews, he was evasive on the floor of the House of Commons today about what Labour's pitch in an
election would be. Okay, so he said, yes, we want Customs Union. We want a better relationship with the single market. But when asked five times in
one weekend program about whether Labour would be fighting the next election on the basis of continuing Brexit attempts, he refused to answer.
Today, in the Commons, asked what Labour's pitch in an election would be, "Oh, well, that's for the party to decide." Well, hang on a minute. If
all of these things are going to be as the party decides, the party has already decided that if he doesn't get a general election with this
confidence vote, he should be going for a referendum.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, the second referendum here.
OAKLEY: There is very little sign - very, very little sign of him wanting to go for that second referendum, despite the Party's instruction on those
lines.
[08:35:10]
WALKER: It underlines the divisions that there are within the Labour Party as well as within the government, thus the difficulty of reaching any
consensus.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, cracks in both parties here. Right. I want to get over to Brussels now because, of course, all this negotiation is reliant on what
we hear from the Europeans, and they've been pretty vocal in the last 12 hours, too. Erin McLaughlin joins us now. Erin, compromise. What do the
Europeans make of what we saw last night and is there any room to negotiate because it seems to me they're saying, ball in your court, Theresa May,
still.
ERIN MCLAUGHLIN, CORRESPONDENT, CNN: Yes, that is absolutely what they're saying, Julia. It's entirely unclear at this point from the E.U.'s
standpoint what could possibly move 230 votes in the direction of this deal and so what we're hearing from E.U. leaders, chief negotiators, calls for
clarity on all of this. They want Theresa May to go back to the drawing board specifically on that question of the future relationship.
The E.U. is not convinced that the backstop is the only issue here. They want to hear from her, a plan how to move forward, what the U.K. wants from
the future. We heard from German Chancellor Angela Merkel. We heard from Michel Barnier, Guy Verhofstadt, the Chief Brexit Negotiator there in
Strasburg. There was a debate in Strasburg for the MEPs earlier this morning. The overarching message, the onus at this point is on the U.K.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANGELA MERKEL, GERMAN CHANCELLOR: (Through a translator). We still have time to negotiate, but we're waiting for what the British Prime Minister
will suggest.
BARNIER: (Through a translator). Ten weeks away, the risk of a no-deal has never seemed so high. Our goal is to avoid such a scenario, but we
also have a responsibility to remain clearheaded.
GUY VERHOFSTADT, LEADER, ALLIANCE OF LIEBERALS AND DEMOCRATS OF EUROPE: I think it's time now to tell our British friends that for the sake of
Britain itself, it's time for cross party cooperation in Britain, as we do here in this Parliament from day one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCLAUGHLIN: And there's also a sense here in Brussels that time is running out, Article 50 will need to be extended, but in order for that to happen,
the U.K. will need to change the law currently enshrined there by Parliament that Brexit is to happen in March 29th, 2019. They will need to
change that and --
CHATTERLEY: Erin, I'm just going to interrupt you there because the Prime Minister is speaking right now. We're going to go straight back to the
House of Commons and listen in.
MAY: ... it would deepen division when we need unity, it would bring chaos when we need certainty, and it would bring delay when we need to move
forward. So I believe the House should reject this motion.
At this crucial moment in our nation's history, a general election is simply not in the national interest. Parliament decided to put the
question of our membership of the European Union to the people. Parliament promised to abide by the result.
Parliament invoked Article 50 to trigger the process, and now Parliament must finish the job. That is what the British people expect of us and
speaking to my constituents and to voters right across the country, that is what they demand.
I will give way in just a moment, that is what is they demand. But a general election would mean the opposite. Far from helping Parliament
finish the job and fulfil our promise to the people of the United Kingdom, it would mean extending Article 50 and delaying Brexit, for who knows how
long.
I'll give way to the Honorable Genteman.
PETE WISHART, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, SCOTTISH NATIONAL PARTY: ... the Prime Minister has given me - she has lost a quarter of her Cabinet, 117 of
her Back Bench with her gone. She has experienced the biggest defeat in Parliamentary history. What shred of credibility have has her government
got left? For goodness' sake Prime Minister, won't you just go?
MAY: The right Honorable Gentleman might not have noticed that what we are debating today is a vote of no confidence in the government, he has his
opportunity to express his opinion in that vote.
John Baron, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, CONSERVATIVE PARTY: As someone who was only defeated last night by 230 votes, may I encourage the Prime Minister
to KBO and never tire of reminding the country that our good economic and one-nation record will be put at risk by a very extreme left-wing and high-
taxation party.
MAY: Can I just say, Honorable Friend, he is absolutely right. I will speak about this later in my speech, but it is over the years since 2010,
with Conservatives in government, that we have been able to turn this economy around, ensure that jobs are provided for people and give people a
better future.
[08:40:10]
JAMES MORRIS, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, CONSERVATIVE PARTY: I totally agree with the Prime Minister that a general election would solve nothing. It is
merely a tactical device used by the Opposition to cause chaos. But would she agree with me that one thing we also need to rule out is a second
referendum on our membership of the E.U., which would be highly divisive and would not resolve the issues that we currently face.
MAY: Right, my Honorable Friend is absolutely right in that a general election would cause the sort of delay that I have just been talking about.
But he is also right, we had a referendum in 2016. I believe it is incumbent on this Parliament to deliver on the result of that referendum
and to deliver Brexit.
And as regards to those issues, the choices we face as a country won't change after four or five weeks of campaigning for a general election, and
there is no indication it would solve the dilemma we now face. Not only - I will give way to my Honorable Friend in a moment - not only there no
guarantee an election would deliver a Parliamentary majority for any single course of action.
I give way to the one on the front.
MARK FRANCOIS, MEMNBER OF PARLIAMENT, CONSERVATIVE PARTY: I thank the Prime Minister for giving way; unlike some, she is clearly not afraid to
debate. It is not exactly a secret that on European policy, she and I have not seen entirely eye to eye.
And it is possible that the Prime Minister - and so does everybody else I would say - but it is possible we will continue to disagree, but I am a
Conservative first and last, and I know opportunism when I see it, so can I tell that when bells ring, the whole ERG will walk through the lobbies with
her to vote this nonsense down.
MAY: Can I thank my right Honorable Friend for his intervention. And I note what he said and I am happy to carry on discussing with him the
different views that we have had on the European issue. But it is absolutely clear that what the right Honorable Gentleman, the Leader of the
Opposition is trying to do is not going to help to resolve the issue of ensuring that we deliver on Brexit for the British people. I give way to
the Honorable Lady.
SEEMA MALHOTRA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, LABOUR PARTY: I think the Prime Minister for giving way. In 2017, the she went to the country and asked
the country for a mandate; she lost her majority. Last night, she asked the House to back her deal; she saw the biggest defeat for a government
vote in the history of this House. Last night she said she wanted to open up dialogue with the whole of this House, and yet she has refused to open
up that dialogue with Front Bench. Does she not agree with me that this looks like more of a strategy more to divide and conquer rather than take
this House and the country together and work out how we move forward?
MAY: Can I say to the Honorable Lady, what I said last night was that we would be opening discussions, having discussions across this House. There
are many different opinions on the issue of how to deliver Brexit across this House. There are some views not to deliver Brexit across this House.
I believe we should be delivering Brexit for people. Although, I made clear was that the first priority should the Leader of the Opposition put a
motion of no confidence down would be to debate that motion of no confidence.
I am confident that the government will retain the confidence of this House and when that happens, I will set out the further steps we will take on
discussions with Members across the House.
If Members will just be a little patient, I have taken a number of interventions, I will make a little progress. But I will be generous in
taking interventions; I think Members know from the number of hours I have spent in this House answering questions that I am not afraid to answer
questions from Members of this House.
But what we see when we look, I will in just a moment, if the Honorable Gentleman would listen to what I said, it does help sometimes. We do not
even know - we do not even know what position the Labour Party would take on Brexit in an election. Now, it is barely 18 months - barely 18 months
since this country - just allow me one. It's barely 18 months since this country last went to the polls, an election where well over 80% of voters,
almost 27 million backed parties whose manifestos promised to deliver Brexit. That's what the government intends to do. That's what is in the
national interest, not the disruption, delay ...
[08:45:10]
MAY: ... and expense of a fourth national poll in less than four years. I'll give way to my own good Friend.
DAVID MORRIS, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, CONSERVATIVE PARTY: Thank you. I thank the Prime Minister for giving way to me. Does she not agree with me
that if the Leader of the Opposition himself wrote on a note exactly what he wanted, passed it to the Prime Minister, the Prime Minister adopted
that, he would still vote against it?
MAY: My Honorable Friend is absolutely right, because of course the position that the Leader of the Opposition took was that however good a
deal for the United Kingdom the government brought back, he would vote against it, and however bad a deal the E.U. offered, he would vote for it.
So he has no real national interest in getting the right answer for our country. I promised the Honorable Gentleman.
STEPHEN DOUGHTY, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, LABOUR PARTY: I thank the Prime Minister for giving way. My right Honorable Friend the Leader of the
Opposition is absolutely right to call for a general election today, because it is not just the government's record on Brexit which is at stake
tonight. And I want to ask the Prime Minister a direct question: is she surely saying that her record on policing and crime is one that she is
willing to stand on? Because we have seen more than 20,000 police officers cut since 2010, we see rising crime, we see rising knife crime, and we see
money being diverted, instead of paying for police, paying for a no-deal Brexit which nobody in this House wants to see happen.
MAY: The Honorable Gentleman talks about paying for police; of course, we put more money available into - make more money available to police forces,
and what did the Labour Party do? The Labour voted against that. Yes, that is what Labour did - they voted against it.
I will make a little more progress, then I will take some more interventions. Now, last night the House did indeed speak clearly, and I
heard the message that it sent. I heard the concerns of my colleagues and from across the House, and I understand them.
And as I told the House last night, if the government secures - and I will just repeat it, if the government secures the confidence of this House,
then my first priority will be to hold meetings with my colleagues, with our confidence and supply partners, the DUP, and with senior
parliamentarians from across the House, but our principles are clear: a deal that delivers a smooth and orderly exit, protecting our Union, giving
us control of our borders, laws and money and allowing us to operate an independent trade policy. These are what deliver on the will of the
British people. I will give way to the Honorable Gentleman.
STEWART MALCOLM MCDONALD, MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT, SCOTTISH NATIONALIST PARTY: I tried this with her earlier during Question Time, so I am going
to give her one more chance: which of the red lines ...
CHATTERLEY: We are going to leave that debate ongoing there. You've been listening to Prime Minister Theresa May defending her government and her
approach to these Brexit negotiations. Let's get some insight now. I'm joined by Kirsty Blackman, she is the Deputy Leader of the Scottish
National Party at Westminster. Great to have you with us.
KIRSTY BLACKMAN, DEPUTY LEADER, SCOTTISH NATIONAL PARTY: Hi there. Good afternoon.
CHATTERLEY: You're going to vote against the government later today.
BLACKMAN: Yes.
CHATTERLEY: You've lost faith.
BLACKMAN: Because- well, I'm not sure we ever had faith in this Conservative government, but the thing is, this is about Brexit. But this
is about other things as well. This is about the Windrush scandal, the hostile environment, the years of austerity and the roll out of universal
credit to name a few things.
But the way that the Prime Minister has handled the Brexit negotiations has just been ridiculous, to be honest. She's gone out there to pander to
those people who are most in favor of the hardest possible Brexit when actually there is no majority in the House for the hardest possible Brexit
at all.
CHATTERLEY: Some would argue that she's just trying to bring together both sides and that she can't have both sides in this negotiations. She has to
make a choice. Do you think there is a deal to be found here ultimately despite all the rhetoric that we've heard even this morning about not
really seeming willing to compromise with the likes of Labour Party or indeed yourselves?
BLACKMAN: Well, we put forward a compromise proposal in 2016 and said if the U.K. is going to leave the EU, which we don't think it should do, we
don't think Scotland should leave the E.U. because we voted to stay, we put forward a compromise that said you must retain single market and Customs
Union membership, and that's what they said at that point in time.
We've tried to compromise and actually, it seems like the Prime Minister is totally unwilling to listen to this. And what we're calling for now is for
her to go away and extend Article 50, and so that we can have a people's vote and the people can decide.
CHATTERLEY: Your leader, Nicola Sturgeon spoke by phone to Prime Minister Theresa May and it seems that the message that she got was that nothing is
fundamentally changing him. It's going to be tweaks to this deal. What do you think Nicola Sturgeon was thinking at that point? Did you try and
present your case here and say, look, at some point we have to be flexible mere and adjust the strategy?
BLACKMAN: You know, I think it's just so bizarre that the Prime Minister is trying to keep going with this strategy. So basically her strategy is,
"I am going to carry on doing what I like no matter what Parliament says to me." And you know, even after the defeat last night, she's still talking
about tinkering with the deal and making very slight changes to it. Let's not make it --
CHATTERLEY: Do you think Jeremy Corbyn would be a good Prime Minister?
BLACKMAN: Well, he can't be a worst Prime Minister than Theresa May.
CHATTERLEY: But do you trust him to run this country, to lead this country?
BLACKMAN: You know what, we are absolutely not in favor of a Conservative government. They do the most damage to the purest in society.
[08:50:06]
BLACKMAN: And I am not a fan of the Labour Party. I don't think they've handled themselves well over those, but it can't be worse than the Tories.
CHATTERLEY: Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn? Yes or no?
BLACKMAN: Prime Minister - yes, I am not Jeremey Corbyn's biggest fan, either, to be perfectly honest. But if we are in a situation where we're
going to bring down the government, the reality is a Labour government might come out with that.
CHATTERLEY: Kirsty Blackman, thank you so much for that. Plenty more to come. Stay with CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to the show. We are joined by CNN political contributor Robin Oakley, and political commentator Carole Walker. Okay,
let's wrap this up. It's going to be another interesting 24 hours. We've got a Monday decision of some sort coming back with Plan B. What
ultimately happens here? Is Parliament going to rule out a no-deal exit?
OAKLEY: It looks like the government is aiming for a managed no-deal because they're still refusing to talk about Customs Union, about a better
relationship with the single market, but the one thing we know about this House of Commons from an amendment that was surprisingly called by the
Speaker last week is that there is basically a majority there opposed to having a no-deal result at the end of all of this. So potentially, I think
the House of Commons can get itself together and stop a no-deal situation.
CHATTERLEY: That's the only majority we have right now.
WALKER: Theresa May has given no hints whatsoever of where she's prepared to move despite being pressed time and time and time again. When she does
come back on Monday, it's clear that we'll see a whole series of other alternative proposals put forward by different groups in the Houses of
Parliament and it will be the question of which plan can command the most support across Parliament that will then dictate what happens next.
CHATTERLEY: Can any plan get a majority here?
WALKER: There is a majority in Parliament for what could loosely be described as a soft Brexit, whether the Prime Minister is prepared to pick
up that ball and run with it, that I think remains a big question.
OAKLEY: And whether she's prepared to talk directly to the opposition in order to get that kind of soft Brexit deal that seems still highly
unlikely.
CHATTERLEY: She hasn't phoned Jeremy Corbyn, that they may reach out to senior members, perhaps of the Labour Party.
WALKER: Jeremy Corbyn confirmed today that there had been absolutely no offer of cross party talks, despite the Prime Minister saying last night or
to the leadership of the party --
CHATTERLEY: With him? Tough one with confidence votes going on that he's called at this moment.
WALKER: But all sides are so entrenched that it is now very, very difficult to see whether the compromise comes, particularly when Theresa
May appears to be sticking to her red line on for example, a Customs Union which we know many Labour MPs want, some on her own side think that that
would be the area where you could find some sort of consensus. We've got 72 days left.
[08:55:07]
WALKER: The chances of finding a compromise, trying to get a new agreement with the rest of the E.U. and then getting the legislation through in that
time is a very, very tall order.
OAKLEY: Seventy two days and 40 days of Parliamentary sittings only. You know, time is even smaller.
CHATTERLEY: Cancel the weekends. What about the E.U. here? Because this is a good deal for them, ultimately, too. Let's be clear. Is there any
room for negotiation, do you think, a longer transition period before the backstop kicks in? I'm throwing ideas out there.
OAKLEY: The mood of the E.U. at the moment is exasperation. For god's sake, tell us what you want, we'll try and help you if you can give us some
clear idea from the British Parliament and the British government of what it is that you want.
CHATTERLEY: As long as we like it.
OAKLEY: As long as we like it, yes, but I suspect that the only way that they're going to be willing to extend or to allow us to revoke Article 50
or postpone it is if there is a clear mood in this country for a second referendum.
CHATTERLEY: Does she start losing Cabinet Ministers at some point?
WALKER: Well, if she starts to move too close to Labour MPs in order to try to win a broad consensus across Parliament, yes, there is a big risk of
more resignations from her Cabinet, but look, she's already lost about a dozen Cabinet Ministers. She's lost two Brexit Secretaries. She has lost
a Foreign Secretary. This Prime Minister is defying all the normal laws of politics and, yes, she may have to be prepared to see more resignations
from her Cabinet if she's going reach that broad consensus across Parliament.
At the moment, she appears to be somewhat to have forgotten that overwhelming defeat she suffered last night, and sticking to the same
language about her bottom lines on what she is prepared to accept in terms of a Brexit deal. She's going to have to move somewhere or otherwise, as
Robin has mentioned, the time will simply run out and we will be leaving the European Union without a deal.
OAKLEY: ... unaffected by everything that is happening around her.
CHATTERLEY: Tina Fordham, chief political analyst at Citigroup said to me last night, we are in a political nervous breakdown. Is that where we are?
OAKLEY: Theresa May is not exactly having a nervous breakdown, she just seems so completely impervious to the life going on around her. How long
she can maintain this kind of composure is another guess.
CHATTERLEY: We shall see. That debate will continue. The vote later on tonight. Stay with us because we will be counting you down over these
hours. Plenty more analysis to come. "First Move" right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHATTERLEY: Live from London, I'm Julia Chatterley. This is "First Move" and here is your need to know. [09:00:10]
END
