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Out in the Open
Should New York Subway Attackers Be Charged?; Firestorm Erupts Over Texas Burglary Shooting
Aired December 12, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: What an amazing response we're getting to this story. Now, here's a look at those protests that have been taking place in Pasadena, Texas, over a man who shot two illegal immigrants who were ripping off his neighbor's house.
Listen to this. It's heated. The Pasadena City Council is worried that this thing could escalate. So, just this afternoon, we have now learned that they have moved to ban protests in residential neighborhoods, banning any form of dissent.
This is obviously a huge step and a constitutional issue as well. But it shows just how much heat this shooting has sparked. What has made this case even hotter is the dead robbers were black and Hispanic. The shooter is white. And now he's getting death threats.
Listen to this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What you better do -- you better indict Joe Horn and you better find him guilty. If you don't, somebody's going to kill him. They're waiting on him in prison and we're waiting on him on the outside. Let me tell you something, we're going to kill that (expletive). Bye.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: How seriously is Joe Horn taking this threat? And what is going to be happening next?
We're going be joined in just a little bit, exclusively, we might --, by Horn's longtime friend, it's important to say, and his attorney as well. This will be an OUT IN THE OPEN exclusive. We look forward to hearing from him.
But, first, for those of you who have not heard this 911 tape, prepare to be riveted.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
911 OPERATOR: Pasadena 911. What is your emergency?
JOE HORN, NEIGHBOR: Burglars are breaking into a house next door.
SANCHEZ (voice-over): Joe Horn is watching two burglars ripping off his neighbor and he's calling 911.
HORN: I have got a shotgun. Do you want me to stop them?
911 OPERATOR: Nope, don't do that. Ain't no property worth shooting somebody over, OK?
HORN: Hurry up, man. Catch these guys, will you? Because I ain't going to let them go. I'm going to be honest with you. I'm not going to let them go. I'm not going to let them get away with this (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
SANCHEZ: The operator tells Horn not to go outside 13 different times.
HORN: I can't see the front. I can go out the front but if I go out the front I'm bringing my shotgun with me. I swear to God. I am not going to let them then get away with this. I can't take a chance on getting killed over this, OK?
911 OPERATOR: No.
HORN: I'm going to shoot. I'm going to shoot.
911 OPERATOR: Stay inside the house, and don't go out there, OK? I know you're pissed off and I know what you're feeling, but it's not worth shooting someone over this, OK?
SANCHEZ: But minutes later, Horn sees the two burglars with the loot.
HORN: This ain't right buddy.
911 OPERATOR: You're going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with the gun.
HORN: You want to make a bet? I'm going to kill them.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Stay in the house.
HORN: They're getting away.
Property is not worth killing someone over, OK?
Don't go out the house. Don't be shooting nobody. I know you're (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and you're frustrated, but don't do it.
HORN: They got a bag of loot.
DISPATCHER: OK. How big is the bag? Which way are they going?
HORN: I can't -- I'm going outside. I will find out.
911 OPERATOR: I don't want you going outside, Mister. . .
HORN: Well, here it goes, buddy. You hear the shotgun clicking and I'm going. 911 OPERATOR: Don't go outside.
HORN: Move, you're dead!
(GUNSHOTS)
SANCHEZ: Before Joe Horn hangs up, the two burglars were dead. Hernando Torres and Diego Ortiz were both shot in the back. The story divides the community in Pasadena. Tensions are still running high. Some say Horn acted as a good neighbor. Others say he's a cold- blooded killer.
QUANELL X, NEW BLACK PANTHERS: What the two brothers did was wrong. We believe that it's not right for anyone to become judge, jury and executioner.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: So, who is this Joe Horn that so many people want to know so much about?
In a CNN exclusive, Joe Horn's attorney and good longtime friend is speaking out for the very first time. Tom Lambright is good enough to join us right now.
Mr. Lambright, thanks for being with us, sir.
TOM LAMBRIGHT, ATTORNEY FOR JOE HORN: Thank you, Mr. Sanchez, for having me.
SANCHEZ: Does he feel, Mr. Horn, your client, that his life is being threatened right now?
LAMBRIGHT: Well, I don't think there's any question about it. I have heard the threat that has been aired on the local news. And it seems to be one.
SANCHEZ: Do you feel that your client was covered under existing Texas law to do what he did?
LAMBRIGHT: Absolutely. There's no question in my mind that he had an absolute right to defend his life. And I also believe he had a right to defend his neighbor's property as well.
SANCHEZ: What about the question of him not having to put himself in that situation? After all, what was going on was going on in his neighbor's house. It wasn't his house, as is explained in the castle law in Texas. Is that going to be a problem for him and for you?
LAMBRIGHT: I don't really believe so.
There's a question of whether or not he was asked to defend it. But you have to remember, these two people came on to Joe's property as Joe was trying to assist the police in giving them information. And they confronted him right there at his front door. SANCHEZ: OK. Well, that's an interesting question. And, to be fair, we need to break that down a little bit.
I want you to listen to some tape now. Let's go back to this conversation, this 911 call. And folks at home are watching along as well. And they're going to be listening to this.
Will, in the control room, this will be cut two on the tape. This is the -- where he clicks his shotgun and he's being told not to go outside. Let's pick that up right now.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
HORN: Well, here it goes buddy. You hear the shotgun clicking and I'm going.
911 OPERATOR: Don't go outside.
HORN: Move, you're dead!
(GUNSHOTS)
(END AUDIO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: It's an amazing thing to listen to.
And I guess the this I want to ask you this question, to be fair, is because people are arguing that he didn't need to go outside. He could have stayed right where he was and he would have been perfectly safe.
LAMBRIGHT: Well, I don't think there's any question about that. But if he hadn't gone outside, he wouldn't have been able to tell the police what kind of car they were getting into, where they were escaping to.
You have to remember, he couldn't see from that bedroom window any of the front of the house. He went outside, if you go back to that conversation, and he says, I can't see.
And that's what he was trying to do. He says, I can't see from where I'm at. I'm going to have to go outside to see.
SANCHEZ: There's another question that is being raised in this case that you're going to have to confront as well.
And that is, did he really go outside and give these two individuals, these two suspects, these two robbers, I guess we should call them, enough time to respond? And it sounds on the tape, from the moment when he hangs up the phone to the moment that he actually fires, not a lot of time goes by. Also very short amount of time from when he says, if you move, I will shoot.
Now, what we have done is, we have got that whole segment again, but we have put a clock to it, so you and the folks at home can see how the time expires. Let's pick that up. That's cut three, Will. Go ahead.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
HORN: Well, here it goes buddy. You hear the shotgun clicking and I'm going.
911 OPERATOR: Don't go outside.
HORN: Move, you're dead!
(GUNSHOTS)
(END AUDIO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: It was about 10 seconds from the point he went outside to the point that he said, move, you're dead. And then there was about two seconds from when he said, move, you're dead, to the time he actually fired.
Is that a reasonable amount of time for him to feel threatened and for these guys to be able to respond to his command?
LAMBRIGHT: I think absolutely.
From what I understand from Joe, when he told them that, they were both looking at him. He was looking at their faces. And they moved towards him. And that's when he responded by opening firing.
SANCHEZ: But, yet, the evidence shows that both of these men were shot -- well, not in the back. I don't think that would be accurate. But one was shot squarely in the back. The second one was apparently somewhere near the back, apparently not in a place where it would look like he was making a move toward your client.
LAMBRIGHT: Well, there have been a number of scientific studies about that, how long it takes from the time you perceive a danger, threat, until you can actually fire a weapon.
And all of tests -- and they were using professional police officers -- that time involved is long enough that an individual can turn 90 degrees to the side and can also turn a whole 180 degrees to the side. The professors at TCU University did a study because of police shootings where the police had accidentally shot them in the back. And they were trying to figure out, how could this happen?
SANCHEZ: So you're saying the fact that he was shot in the back does not necessarily say that he was shooting two guys who were fleeing.
Let me ask you something else about his reaction afterward. And then I also want to ask you about the chances that the police or the DA in this case is actually going to bring charges. I understand it's going to be going to a grand jury.
LAMBRIGHT: Sure. SANCHEZ: First, your client comes back and then tells the 911 operator what he has done and explains a motive for why he did it.
Will, this is cut four. Let's listen to it together.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
HORN: Get the law over here quick. I have now, get, one of them's in the front yard over there, he's down, he almost run down the street. I had no choice. They came in the front yard with me, man, I had no choice.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: you know, this seems to help your client. He is saying, I had no choice. They came in the front yard. And this is his immediate reaction. This is a gut check coming from a guy who has just shot and killed two people.
That's probably going to help you, isn't it?
LAMBRIGHT: Well, you know, I don't think he had time to make up any story. I think this is a true, genuine emotion...
SANCHEZ: Right.
LAMBRIGHT: ... that's going to be -- it's going to bear true when they take a look at the scene, the evidence, and what this police officer, who had just rolled up -- I mean, it hadn't even stopped yet -- what he saw actually occur.
SANCHEZ: Right.
Imagine -- yes, imagine what it was like for him.
Tom Lambright, Houston lawyer, longtime friend of Joe Horn, you have been very kind, sir, to take time to talk to us tonight, to field these questions, and to take us through this.
We're going continue to be in touch. And hopefully we will be reaching out to your client soon as well.
LAMBRIGHT: Thank you much. I sure appreciate it, Mr. Sanchez.
SANCHEZ: Likewise, sir.
We have got people on both sides of this issue, as we have been following it all week. So many people have been getting involved in this. The two gentlemen here are experts in this.
I mean, obviously, Guardian Angels founder Curtis Sliwa, you know who he is. He knows about as much about street crime, vigilante justice, these types of issues, as probably anybody in the United States.
And we're glad to have you here. Also, former prosecutor Paul Callan is going be talking to us about this. And he might end up taking the other side.
Now, you and I are going to spend a lot of time on this coming up in just a little bit, because we have got a lot of stuff to get through.
But just from what you heard right now, do you believe -- and if you can keep it to 10 seconds -- that Joe Horn should be charged in this case, Curtis?
CURTIS SLIWA, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Absolutely not. Thumbs up. Congressional Medal of Honor. More guys like this, less criminals in the street. And they were illegals.
SANCHEZ: Stop you there.
Paul, you pick it up.
PAUL CALLAN, MEDIA LAW PROFESSOR, SETON HALL UNIVERSITY: When I last checked, Rick, burglary was not punishable by death, even in Texas. He should be prosecuted.
SANCHEZ: You guys, hold your thoughts. We're going get a lot into this. And, as a matter of fact, we're going to into this and a couple of other stories, because we have got something really interesting going on.
Think about this for a minute. What if the situation is suddenly turned around and it's a black guy who is killing a white guy who is on his property and is threatening his family. This gets interesting. And you don't have to even what-if this one, OK, because that case exists right now in New York. And this man is on trial.
I need you to stick around for me, if you have been watching this, so you can fairly compare his case to Joe Horn's. OK?
And then this -- these are girls acting like wild animals. That's not what I'm saying. That's what their dad told me here yesterday. This video is amazing, but now, should they be charged?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At that moment, I heard the gunshots myself. And of course my first thought is my wife and kids are down there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: In one of his first sit-down interviews, the pastor from the New Life Church in Colorado is speaking about the killing and what people are now saying about his church. This is important stuff. Have it for you, a lot coming your way.
We're going to be right back in two. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) SANCHEZ: Welcome back.
Now, we just told you about this white Texas man who shot two black and Hispanic burglars in his neighborhood, shot them in the back and killed them.
Well, now let's turn this thing around. How about a case of a black man from Long Island, New York, who is on trial for manslaughter? He killed a white teenager who he says was threatening his family. Think about that. It's important to pay attention to the details of this case, because I'm going to be asking you a question about this in just a little bit.
And it's a conversation that we probably all need to be having.
First, here's Dan Lothian.
All right. You have been looking into this case.
DAN LOTHIAN, CNN BOSTON BUREAU CHIEF: That's right.
SANCHEZ: Let's start with this. A man apparently shoots this teenager.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: He's black -- a white teenager. Why did he feel threatened by this kid?
LOTHIAN: He says that he felt threatened because some of his son's friends were coming over to his house. They had made some phone calls. There had been these threatening phone calls. He felt that his life was in danger, that his family's life was in danger, and he wanted to protect his family.
SANCHEZ: In fact, they did come to his house, didn't they?
LOTHIAN: They did come to his house.
And, by the way, he's 53-year-old John White. He is the man who is now being charged with manslaughter. He's on trial.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: How big was the threat? Did the man have a right to feel threatened by what was being said to him and his family?
LOTHIAN: That is a very good question.
Now, the best way to answer that question is just taking a look at some of the testimony. His son, 20-year-old Aaron White, was on the stand this week.
And listen to some of the testimony. He's talking about the young man who was shot by the father. He is 17-year-old Daniel Cicciaro. And he says -- this is what he said. He says: "Come out of your house, you f-ing N," using the N-word. "I'm coming here to f-ing kill you. Come of your f-ing house. We're coming here to fight you. I'm going to kill you, you f-ing A."
These are some of the...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: He's saying this to him in front of his house, on his property.
LOTHIAN: He's saying it to him on the phone as he 's driving over way to the house. This is the allegation. This is what is coming out of testimony, that he's calling him on the phone. And he's saying, I'm coming to your house to do these quotes that I just told you.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Does he threaten family members?
LOTHIAN: According to the testimony, he goes on and he says, "I will f you, you and your mother."
SANCHEZ: Oh, my goodness.
LOTHIAN: There's another one. He says -- this is according to the testimony again by the 20-year-old, Aaron White, the son of the man who fired the shot.
He said -- quote -- "Called me an N," using the N-word. "He just kept calling me an N. I told him that he was a racist, a racist animal."
And then he goes on to explain how we felt like we were being threatened. He told his dad -- quote -- "Dad, these guys are coming here to kill me."
SANCHEZ: This is amazing. And why were these guys going there to allegedly kill him?
LOTHIAN: Well, that is what is at the center of this story.
There was this rumor out there that there was this Web site -- and, in fact, there was a Web site on MySpace, a chat room, where the young man, Aaron White, apparently had said that he was going to rape one of the friends of these guys. These were girls.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: These white kids thought that the black kid was going to rape one of their friends?
(CROSSTALK)
LOTHIAN: Exactly. Exactly.
SANCHEZ: Is it true? Was he going to -- was there -- is there any truth to that?
LOTHIAN: You know what? That is what is the sad thing about this story. It turns out it was a hoax. It was all made up. It was not true.
SANCHEZ: So, these guys went to this man's house to threaten him and his family over a hoax, over something that wasn't even true, and used that kind of language?
LOTHIAN: The entire thing was all made up. It was a hoax. It was there. It was posted on MySpace, but it was a hoax.
SANCHEZ: All right, so this guy is defending his property, which it seemed he should have been real mad about this. Anybody would have been, right?
(CROSSTALK)
LOTHIAN: These young men coming over to the house.
SANCHEZ: But then the gun goes off.
LOTHIAN: Exactly.
SANCHEZ: This is where it gets complicated. He says it was an accidental discharge. What do we know about that?
LOTHIAN: That's right.
He says that it was an accident, that he was defending himself, he was defending his family. This is what is coming out in the testimony. Of course there are two sides to every story.
SANCHEZ: Well, is this case as racially charged as it seems?
LOTHIAN: Well, it certainly is, because throughout this entire case, you're hearing the N-word is being used, N-word here, N-word there. So, race obviously is a big issue here.
But, again, he says that this was an accident. And his lawyer said that.
SANCHEZ: Even before we get to the accident and the details of the case, you know what we're left with? Aren't we left with a real motive question? How mad does a man have to get before he responds like this? When someone is in front of his house threatening him, calling him the N-word, saying he's going to rape his wife in front of his family.
(CROSSTALK)
LOTHIAN: Maybe it's not the word, but rather scared. In this particular case, they're saying that they felt that they were being threatened. The son saying that his father felt that he was being threatened, and that is why he got the gun, but didn't intend to shoot.
SANCHEZ: I get it. This is interesting, though, because it's similar to the Joe Horn case in that this guy is now being actually prosecuted.
And it's a manslaughter charge.
(CROSSTALK)
LOTHIAN: Manslaughter charge.
SANCHEZ: And we still don't know on the Joe Horn case.
All right, let's go to our guests over here, if we can. Let's take it back to Curtis Sliwa.
And let's start with you, Curtis. You look at this case. You heard what Dan was explaining. Do you think this man should even be charged for what he did?
SLIWA: Well, I know Riverhead. It's Jerry Springer land. Three-eyed cousin fornicators, they came around this guy's house. He's protecting his family and property. Too bad the guy is room temperature. He deserved it.
SANCHEZ: He did?
SLIWA: He did.
SANCHEZ: This kid deserved to get shot?
Paul, what do you think in this case?
CALLAN: I think this is the kind of case that a prosecutor should present to a jury. A lot of cases present very close questions as to whether deadly physical force should have been used against somebody.
And in cases like this, why not present it to a jury, a jury of everyone's peers, and let them make the decision?
SANCHEZ: We are going to pick up on that in just a little bit. We're going to be back to Guardian Angels founder Curtis Sliwa and former prosecutor Paul Callan in just a bit.
Here's where you get to chime in at home, by the way. Given what you have just heard about this case and those details, all right, should John White be on trial? Should this man, who was seemingly offended and protecting his family, he says, be on trial? Yes, he should. No, he shouldn't. It's that simple. We want to know what you think. Go to CNN.com/Rick, CNN.com/Rick. We are going to tally up the results and let you know how the vote goes, as we always do here on OUT IN THE OPEN. Now, up next, I want you to take a listen to this. We're continuing to follow the subway beating story we first told you about last night. Awful behavior, yes. But is it a crime? It's really got a lot of people talking.
Also, take a look at this picture, victims in the Virginia Tech massacre, right? No. This is a joke, a bad joke. And there's no apologies being offered. So we're going to ask for one.
Also tonight, a look inside a sanctuary. Thousands of parishioners are now getting together. These are pictures that we have been bringing in this afternoon. For the first time, these 7,000 people will get together since this mad killer stormed into their church with a gun. The pastor is talking to us. And we will have it. Stay with us.
We're back in two.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Look at this video. This is an incredible story that we have been following. It's a man who is attacked by a bunch of girls, teenage girls, on a New York subway. One passenger filmed the assault and then put it on YouTube.
Now, listen to what the dad of one of the girls told me right here in this studio last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEITH BELVIN, FATHER OF SUSPECT: Any time you get into a stranger's face and you go at him, you don't know what he is, what he is doing, what he is about. And so you are taunting him. You are pushing him. That's not sane. That's not rational thinking. And that's not what she's about.
SANCHEZ: You are angry at her, aren't you?
BELVIN: No. I'm ashamed for her, because we taught her better than that. And regardless of whatever might be going on inside, she knows better than that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: It's amazing.
It may now only be a matter of time before the girls are in court, because the victim now says he is prepared to press charges. He has changed his mind. And this story has touched so many of our viewers.
By the way, what that man also said -- and I should tell you this -- he said, I will admit that my daughter acted like an animal. And you know what? She should be charged. And if she has to go to court and have to do time, well, maybe she will learn her lesson.
That's her father talking about his own flesh and blood in this case.
Let's take a look at last night's quick poll, because we asked you this question about this, which is also an interesting part of it. Would you be involved in a case like this? If this happened in front of you, would you jump in and help out? Well, 84 percent of said, yes, you would. You would jump in. You would get involved.
This is going to be interesting to you, Curtis. Sixteen percent said no.
Let's bring in Curtis Sliwa now and Paul Callan to talk about this a little bit.
First of all, let's start at the beginning.
Paul I'm going to start with you. Should these young ladies be charged for what they did or is it just a youthful indiscretion by a bunch of stupid teenagers?
CALLAN: I have to give the father credit here, Rick. These girls clearly committed a crime. As the father says, they should be prosecuted. They terrorized this guy on the subway.
And, unfortunately, though, under New York law, the crime would be a very minor one. All they did really was touch him and maybe there's a bruise on him. It's probably an A-misdemeanor.
SANCHEZ: Well, there's more than touching there.
Curtis, take a look at this video.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: They're going after this guy.
(CROSSTALK)
CALLAN: But, under New York law, unless you cause physical injury...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: That's not touching.
Curtis.
SLIWA: They're throwing him a beat-down.
That happened to me in the '70s. I'm a McDonald's manager coming home at night on the IRT, guys coming through singing, Manhattan makes it, Brooklyn takes it, then looking at me. And everyone in the car knew I was going to be vicked, I was going to be the victim. So, they disappeared. They had window shades on their eyes, cotton balls in their ears, a zipper on their mouth. You are on your own.
SANCHEZ: So you're on the record. You're saying they should be charged.
You saying they should be charged as well, right, Paul?
CALLAN: Absolutely. Yes.
SANCHEZ: Let's go to the other story now. Let's go to the Houston shooting.
If you could, Will, give me some of the video that we have been showing of these disturbances just to show how much of a nerve this has hit in that area around Houston. It's actually Pasadena, just a little bit south of Houston.
This is what has been going on there. People on both sides are charged. This gets difficult. As you know for a prosecutor, it means uh-oh. I'm going make a politically charged decision whether to prosecute. We understand it's now gone over to a grand jury.
As you look at this case, do you think, Paul, that indeed Joe Horn should charged with a crime?
CALLAN: He should absolutely be charged with a crime.
And the DA has got to present it to a grand jury. I mean, listen to those tapes, Rick. You know, he pumps his shotgun. There's premeditation. He's repeatedly warned by the operator, don't go outside until the cops arrived. And one final thing that I would consider, if the cops had pulled up and just stepped out, gave the suspects two seconds and blew them away...
SANCHEZ: Yes,
CALLAN: ... the cops would be arrested and prosecuted. How can you not have this guy be prosecuted?
SANCHEZ: That's a good point that he makes about the timing, courtesy well to you.
CURTIS SLIWA, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: What did I say. These guys are here illegally to begin with. They've already broken the law.
SANCHEZ: OK.
SLIWA: Now they're here and we're not deporting them, and they invade somebody's house. So I guess we want everyone to mind their own business?
SANCHEZ: There is no question what these guys did is scummy. These are not good people.
(CROSSTALK)
SLIWA: Isn't there a risk?
SANCHEZ: They're robbing people's houses.
(CROSSTALK)
SLIWA: You know hazardous, right? You take hazardous waste material out there is risk. Then you want to be assaulted, you want a robbery--
SANCHEZ: But you know -- you know darn well what the question is here. Do you have a right as a citizen to go and kill somebody because they're doing something wrong? Stealing property?
(CROSSTALK)
SLIWA: Yes. Yes, you have that right.
SANCHEZ: You do?
CALLAN: Absolutely. Absolutely.
CALLAN: In North Korea -- in North Korea -- in Iran you have that right. In totalitarian places, you have the right. In America, you get a jury trial before you're put to death.
SLIWA: Let me tell you something, OK?
They come first for your property, then they come for your wife. Then they come for the kids and if the community doesn't fight back, and you better believe and that community isn't enough, those thugs are not going to think twice.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
SLIWA: It's not just about somebody's home invasion that you're doing, it's neighbors who may be coming out to fire you up with (INAUDIBLE).
SANCHEZ: So you say it would be a good precedent if this guy is in fact not charged?
SLIWA: Well, Rick, all we're dealing is with this militias, snitches get stitches and end up in ditches when nobody wants to cooperate, nobody want to help solve crimes. It gets good to see people fighting back.
CALLAN: Well, Rick, I'm trying to compete with both a red hat and rhyme, so this is very difficult. But if you allow this case to go forward without prosecuting, then a lot of innocent people are going to wind up being killed by citizens who are making mistakes. The problem is, yes, maybe these guys were guilty. Maybe they deserved to be shot, but what about an innocent kid who gets shot? Do we allow that? That's why we have crimes.
SANCHEZ: So it's all about -- hold on, hold on. I'm going to hold your hand and stop you. I know how Curtis Sliwa wants to jump in on this.
Curtis, let me start with you. Now, the shooting in Brooklyn. Here's an African-American man who's got somebody in on his property, on his cell phone saying, I'm going to you know what your wife. I mean, man, that must be hard to take. Doesn't he have the right to go out there with a gun?
(CROSSTALK)
SLIWA: How is that any different than the old clan plan, where they come with the hoods, they surround your house, they have tortures? Come on out and come on out. We'll do this. I want to do that.
This man was stuck, right? He's the man of the house. He's got his --
SANCHEZ: Are you saying he has a right to do what he did? By the way, I misspoke I said Brooklyn. This was in Long Island, obviously. Do you believe that this man had a right to go out there and defend his property in the way that he did?
CALLAN: This is a much harder case than the Horn case because he seemed to have a serious threat to his own safety and to the safety of his house. But nonetheless, Rick, I think a jury should decide this question. I don't think a prosecutor should be deciding it. I don't think the cops should decide it. I think a jury should decide it, and that's what's going to happen.
SANCHEZ: Well, we'll see how it goes. We'll be following it. It's great to have you guys. Paul and Curtis, really good discussion. Thanks for being here.
CALLAN: Nice to be here.
SANCHEZ: Well, I like the passion.
Go to our Web site right now. Vote. This is on the story that we just told you about. A man is on trial for allegedly killing someone who threatened him, right? Is it manslaughter or self- defense? Should John White even be on trial? Let's just answer that question. Should he be on trial for what you heard happened in his front lawn?
Vote at CNN.com/Rick, CNN.com/Rick.
A lot of people are offended by this picture. Take a look at it. It's two college kids. They're dressed up as Virginia Tech victims. They're dressed up as dead people, but the one kid in the picture says, you know what? I'm not apologizing. I have no remorse. He's going to join us in just a little bit. Maybe, I can change his mind.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PASTOR BRADY BOYD, SR. PASTOR NEW LIFE CHURCH: And I told her directly, you're a hero. I want you to know. What you did today is the right thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: You're all going to see this one here. It's one of his first sit down interviews. Pastor Boy Brady opens up about Sunday's shooting and the security guard who took the killer down.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: I told you about this picture. I want to show it to you now. You're looking at the picture, this photo that was posted on Facebook. These are Penn State students. Look how they're dressed. They're dressed like dead people, like dead Virginia Tech shooting victims, complete with the fake bullet holes in the head and the chest, fake blood. This is a Halloween costume that's getting some people extremely upset, extremely offended.
Here's why. Thirty-two people died and many more were wounded when a Virginia Tech student opened fire last April on campus. These are some of the scenes. The gunman killed himself. This is the deadliest school shooting in U.S. history, and the wounds on the Virginia Tech campus still are running deep
Nathan Jones wore one of the Virginia Tech massacre Halloween outfits, and Nathan is good enough to join us now. By the way, he told our staff that he's simply not going to apologize about this.
All right. Nathan, thanks for being with us. Take us through what this costume is, and why you decided to wear it first of all?
NATHAN JONES, PENN STATE UNIVERSITY SENIOR: OK. Well, there is actually -- the party we went to, the year before, someone had worn the west nickel mine shooting victim's costumes.
SANCHEZ: Right.
JONES: So there was a sort of tradition of distaste that went along. Well, we bumped into the host of the party earlier that day. We talked to him about -- we didn't know what to wear. He was wondering what people were going to do. We kind of bounced around the idea of what we're going to wear and Virginia Tech shooting victims came up.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Why would you -- why would you -- OK. Why would that come up? I mean, who would come up with something like that, if you don't mind my asking?
JONES: People who have worn -- I mean, at the previous party was nickel mine shooting victims. So, I mean like I said it's a continuation of a sort of controversial distasteful type of tradition amongst this small group of friends at a party every year.
SANCHEZ: So it's interesting. You said distasteful. You agreed that this is a distasteful costume, right?
JONES: Oh, of course. Yes, I do. It's distasteful and that's why I wore it because it was distasteful and controversial.
SANCHEZ: OK, I get it. Look, do you think it's a stupid thing to do?
JONES: That's a sort of loaded, complex question. The actual act of wearing it to that single party with a small group of people, not expecting it to be seen by the rest of the world, there is nothing wrong with that.
SANCHEZ: But here's the problem.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But listen, listen, listen. Here's the problem. It was seen by the rest of the world and maybe through no fault of your own, but it happened. And I'm not castigating for doing something like this.
JONES: Yes.
SANCHEZ: Look, well, I haven't done something stupid in my life plenty. Probably, I can beat you, OK? The thing is, you did it and now there are consequences. Are you willing to deal with these consequences?
JONES: Yes. All of the consequences that anything that could happen from it is pretty much set as it is now. A lot of people talk about, are you worried about your future job situation, et cetera? I mean, if you Google my name already, you're going to find that I'm already am. Adding a little extra to this isn't going make a whole lot of difference.
SANCHEZ: Oh, hold on a minute, though.
JONES: Like I said though --
SANCHEZ: Hold on. The problem that we're having isn't the costume, isn't what you wore, isn't the fact that you're a young guy and you wanted to have fun and did something that some people might think is questionable. What you're left with though is something that got out into the open and now people are seeing all over the place, and some of those people are offended.
JONES: Right.
SANCHEZ: What are you going to do about it, Nathan?
JONES: OK. I would tell them that it is not their position to regulate how I feel about things if I wanted to be distasteful and wear this outfit.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But wait a minute, Nathan. It's not your position.
JONES: That's my prerogative. SANCHEZ: Hold, Nathan, it's not your place to tell people whether or not they have a right to be offended.
JONES: Don't look at the pictures if you don't like them.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Nathan, Nathan, here's all you have to do. I didn't mean to hurt anybody.
JONES: You don't have to look at the pictures if you don't like them.
SANCHEZ: Nathan, Nathan, let me help you. I didn't mean to hurt anybody. This was between me and a couple of friends. But now that somebody has decided to put this out on the Internet, I want to apologize to anyone who's offended. That's all you got to say. That's it.
JONES: Why should I apologize? Why exactly should I apologize for it?
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Because they're offended. Because they're offended. Because they're son, they're daughter may have been shot and killed and you're making fun of their death.
JONES: I'm not making fun of their individual daughters' death, though. It's not a personal attack by me. I'm not --
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: It's not your daughter, Nathan. If that was your daughter or your son or your brother or someone you loved and they saw what you showed, don't you think you would be offended?
JONES: Hmmm, possibly. I'd have to be in that position.
SANCHEZ: Wouldn't you want someone to say I'm sorry you're offended?
JONES: I have said that I'm sorry that the Virginia Tech students and friends and family had to view the pictures that I played a part in that.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: So you apologize. OK. Wait, wait. We're closed. Nathan, we're closed. I love you like a brother if you just say the following words.
I'm sorry if I've offended anyone in these pictures, it wasn't my intent? Say that.
JONES: Do you want me to insincerely apologize? That would show lack of integrity on my part.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: No, you're doing it on TV sincerely. I want you to mean that I'm just trying to help you along.
JONES: It's a popular thing in the media to insincerely apologize. People eat it all up, but that doesn't mean anything internal has changed.
SANCHEZ: All right, Nathan.
JONES: You're asking me to do something. You're asking me to compromise my integrity and do something that I disagree with.
SANCHEZ: All right. Well --
JONES: It's the people who are looking at the photo and who distributed the photo who are at fault.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: I understand that you're extremely resolute about this, and hopefully we'll get a chance to talk again about it. Thanks, Nathan, for coming on. Nathan Jones.
Up next --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PASTOR BRADY BOYD, SR. PASTOR NEW LIFE CHURCH: As I read the Web postings, the blog postings, and some of his, you know, written comments, they're deeply disturbing. And I'm wondering why. Why is that people read that and don't take it more seriously?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: This is going to be one of his first sit-down interviews. You know what's happening in Colorado. It's a bloody scene. The pastor of the New Life Church in Colorado will talk about the killer and what he plans to say when he addresses tonight a congregation of 7,000 strong for the very first time.
Also, I know that you've been deeply involved in the stories we've been bringing you this week. Don't forget, we want you to tell us what you think about the Long Island man now.
You told us about Joe Horn. Eighty-four percent of you said Joe Horn should not be charged. What do you think about this man for shooting a white teenager? Should he be on trial? Vote now at CNN.com/Rick.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: We have got so much stuff to bring you but before we do anything else, let's go to Larry King. He's going to tell you what he's got coming up tonight.
This is -- I read the material on what you guys are going to talk about tonight. This sounds interesting.
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Interesting, it's scary.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
KING: Yes. We're going to take a look at something you'd hate to even think about, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
KING: Being awake, being awake during surgery. Now, think about it. You're out but not completely under and suddenly, you feel the cut of the scalpel. It's not funny, but it's got to be weird. And those who have experienced this in real life, Hara Wood (ph) will join us at the top of the hour.
We also have Dr. Sanjay Gupta, one of my favorite people to discuss how this could happen, because you would never think that would happen. Is that one of your fears if you were being operated on?
SANCHEZ: Oh, oh, absolutely, and especially if you're in that twilight, where you can't say anything but something's going. Yes. Yes. Yes.
KING: I wouldn't fear that.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
KING: OK. We'll delve into it. That's at the top of the hour, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Take care, Larry.
KING: Continue with your bundle of stuff.
SANCHEZ: Youth is wasted on the young, Larry. You know that.
KING: I guess.
SANCHEZ: All right.
This is the New Life Church in Colorado. All right. There it is, and we've been on this church the last couple of days. Well, tonight the congregation, and we've been this and talking to folks there all day long. They're going to meeting for the first time since this deadly tragedy. Think about that now, 7,000 people, suddenly this happened. They haven't gotten together. Tonight, their pastor is calling them all together, and he's good enough to sit down and talk with us about what he's going to tell them. So please stay tuned because there's a lot to talk about in this case.
Also, don't forget our "Quick Vote" about the New York man on trial for shooting an intruder. Manslaughter or self-defense, should he even be tried? Vote at CNN.com/Rick.
There is the look. We are back in two. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Now, let's show you some of these pictures now. We're taking you out to Colorado. People tonight there just sad. They're in mourning. The four victims that were killed in Sunday's deadly rampage. The family of the 24-year-old killer, Matthew Murray, has released a statement today. By the way, it's a statement of sympathy. It's been called for the victims of what they call unthinkable shootings.
Let's go ahead and get some pictures up. Murray took his own life after he was shot and wounded by a security guard at the New Life Church in Colorado Springs. That's what he looked like. That's where one service is tonight. It's a service not only remembers the victims but also tries to heal the wounds opened by this incredible carnage.
And there's a history to all of this that we're going to be getting into in just a moment. Pastor Brady Boyd is going to be leading this service. Sean Callebs talked to him today, got some exclusive information from the good poster. And Sean joins us now live.
Sean, what do you have to say?
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Rick, down me you can see the parking lot here. New Life is filling up quickly. We walked through the sanctuary with Pastor Brady Boyd today. He said he expected a larger than usual crowd. In parts today, they're going to talk about forgiveness, forgiving Matthew Murray.
But to a large degree, it is going to be an evening of firsts, the first time many of these people have been back to the church since Sunday's shooting. It will the first time they've been introduced to Jeanne Assam, of course, the security guard who stopped the gunman. But more than anything, the first time they come together as a family and mourn the loss.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CALLEBS (voice-over): As emergency vehicles rushed to the scene on Sunday, Brady Boyd, who had only been the pastor New Life for four months was getting ready for a quick lunch in his second floor office.
BRADY BOYD, SR. PASTOR NEW LIFE CHURCH: My assistant bursts into the office, says gunshots had been fired in the building. And about at that moment, I heard the gunshots myself. And, of course, my first thought is my wife and kids are down there.
CALLEBS: His wife and kids it turns out were at a nearby restaurant. Boyd has spent the past several days preparing remarks for this evening, the first service since the tragedy. He'll introduce Jeanne Assam to the congregation, the voluntary security guard who stopped gunman Matthew Murray by shooting him three times with her handgun from over 80 feet away. Murray then killed himself.
BOYD: And I told her directly, you're a hero. I want you to know what you did today was the right thing. You did the right thing at the right time.
CALLEBS: Yes.
BOYD: You're a brave woman, and you're a heroine to me. If I've been asked, why it seems weird to have armed guards in a church service as if to say that was some kind of a violation of a holy place.
CALLEBS: Boyd defended the practice. New Life is the largest church in Colorado and well known nationally. Adding --
BOYD: If we had not had an armed guard in this building, we'd be burying several hundred people today.
CALLEBS: There is a loose connection between New Life and the family of Matthew Murray. New Life says the Murrays donated $250 and attended the church on a few occasions but were not members. Boyd has read some of the explosive postings attributed to Murray. Postings that rail against Christians and say he was on his way to kill.
BOYD: As I read the Web postings, the blog postings, and some of his, you know, written comments, they're deeply disturbing. And I'm wondering why is that people read that and don't take it more seriously? Because obviously, people were reading his Web postings, reading his blogs. We've got to as a cultures take that more seriously than we're taking it. He gave us every warning, every indication that he was violent, that he had intentions to cause violence. And why is it that we didn't -- the officials -- why was it not reported?
CALLEBS: One of the more painful moments for Boyd happened just after the shooting. He had pulled some 200 people together for prayer in the parking lot near the site where Rachel and Stephanie Works had been shot. He had just been told to expect the worst.
BOYD: One of the doctors who attends our church had pulled us aside and said, it's not good. The chances of either -- well, he told me directly, one daughter was dead at the scene.
CALLEBS: Yes.
BOYD: And the other daughter is not going to make it right here, unless it's an absolute miracle.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CALLEBS: On a crisp, cold December night here in Colorado, I can see Christmas lights in the distance. But, Rick, nothing is normal at this church right now. They plan to have a memorial service for the Works girls next week. Right now, their father, 51-year-old David Works remains in the hospital. He may be released as early as next week, Rick. SANCHEZ: Let me ask you a question that a lot of folks on our Web site have been asking us and wondering about. Boyd replaced Ted Haggard. Did the Ted Haggard incident, the embarrassment I should say, have any connection to the actions by this killer? What were Boyd's comments on that, and what have you learned about?
CALLEBS: Now, I asked him about that and this church and Boyd pretty much steered clear of that. They don't talk much about Ted haggard. But clearly, people are going to be looking at this connection because if you look at those posts, those rants, the raves that Murray had on the Web site, he mentions Haggard twice, one time saying Haggard was his mother's favorite minister.
Haggard was controversial. He was a well know evangelical leader. He was president of the national association of evangelicals. Very powerful post in the U.S., Rick, so powerful in fact, he was on a weekly call to the White House. So this is someone who gained a great deal of notoriety.
SANCHEZ: Yes, you're absolutely right. Hey, listen. Sean, good job. Well done. That was nice and it was very kind of the Pastor, Pastor Boyd, to share his thoughts with us tonight. I know he's going through a real though time. We really appreciate it. Send us his -- send us our appreciation as well, Sean.
CALLEBS: We'll do.
SANCHEZ: You can still vote in tonight's "Quick Vote." Should John White be on trial at all for shooting an intruder who was threatening his family? Just go to CNN.com/Rick.
Also, at the top of the hour, "LARRY KING LIVE" is going to be talking to patients. Listen to this. Patients who ended up being awake during surgery. It's a terrifying topic. It's really happened. Back in two.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Results of our poll. Fourteen percent of you said yes, John White shouldn't be on trial. Eighty-six percent said no.
There's Desmond Howard. So many sent out the Heisman poses. All right, ready? I'll leave you with mine as well, and there we go.
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