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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield
Watts Autopsies Now Done, What Do They Reveal. Aired 6-8p ET
Aired October 02, 2018 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[18:00:00]
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: Welcome, everyone, this is "Crime and Justice." I`m Ashleigh Banfield. We begin with breaking news
right off the top of this program with regard to that case in Colorado, that case, the Watts case. It turns out there are a lot of developments in
that case. Those autopsies now almost two months since those two little girls were murdered and their mother died as well. And finally, finally,
the autopsies are finished. Delivered and sealed to the prosecutor. And delivered to the defense attorney. In the hands of the lawyers as we
speak. It has been a long fought process, what could have taken all that time for autopsies to be delivered.
As far as you and me, we don`t get to know what`s in those autopsies, we don`t even know cause of death. Because it`s sealed. It doesn`t mean it`s
sealed forever. That is still up in the air as to when we will know cause of death, and there is even more breaking news to tell you about tonight.
That is that Shanann Watts did not have a will. We know this because important paperwork has just been filed. It`s her probate paperwork, her
family. The family that came to Colorado to tie up loose ends, to pick up some of her things and the children`s things from that home. And to attend
the memorial service. Looks like they are also filing important paperwork to hash out just what goes where now that she is dead, Bella`s dead, Cece`s
dead and Chris Watts is still alive.
I want to bring in Kyle Peltz, our Crime and Justice Producer, who has just gotten his hands on these documents. There`s a lot in here that is
interesting, and there is a lot in here that isn`t. But what might be missing that is fascinating is the fact there`s no will.
KYLE PELTZ, CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER: Right. We know Shanann`s family as we recorded was in Colorado last week, moving items from the house. Now
we know they were also at the court house apparently dealing with the fact that Shanann did not have a will.
BANFIELD: So, what`s fascinating in these documents, I`m noting is some of the technical language that most people wouldn`t think twice about, when
filling out a formal piece of court paperwork. Check off boxes, perfunctory questions and answers. But some of these are really sad. When
I look at this, I look at with a completely different prism now, given the fact that they are having to fill out who survived her, and I think what is
most telling is that they had to fill out who didn`t survive her.
PELTZ: Right. I think we have a graphic of this, but there`s a line, it stuck out to me as well, in these probate documents, where it asked if
Shanann had any surviving children. There`s a box checked, no. Also notable, you can see it there, Chris Watts, his address there is listed as
the Weld County Jail now.
BANFIELD: I also noticed that deep in the paperwork that these documents have been delivered. They were sent by mail to him and I think they were
sent like several days ago as well. So, he is probably reading this material over maybe in the hour out room. Given that he is not allowed to
have reading material in his cell. But he is reading over these documents, realizing that he is not the only game in town right now, when it comes to
all of the things that technically belonged to Shanann. Belonged to the family. Three quarters of that family is dead now. This is not an easy
formula for them to sift through?
PELTZ: No, it is not. And the big question is who owns what in that house? Who it belongs to?
BANFIELD: They had a lot of expensive things too.
PELTZ: They had many expensive things in their house. Even their house is a very expensive home.
BANFIELD: She had a Lexus, I don`t know if that was fully paid for. That was something she was getting $800 a month. I think from fly, the company
where she works. He had a truck, it was confiscated, the police took, I don`t think it has ever been returned anywhere. We certainly never seen it
park back up in front of that house. Do they ever list any of the assets in the probate paperwork to suggest what they`re looking at or what the
family is listing that she actually had?
PELTZ: Right. There`s a section in this court filing that actually, you know, it`s a box where you can list how much your home is worth and
property, and all of that is actually left blank in these documents.
BANFIELD: I am seeing it here. Estimated value of real estate and it`s left blank. And we think that home was somewhere in the 300, maybe
$400,000 range if I recall. And then estimated value of personal property. Well, Shanann had to have a lot of personal property, her own personal
things. The family mementos that the family said to us they came to get, they came to collect some of the things that were air loose half down by
Shanann`s personal things.
[18:05:03] Look at the things in the background of all of these videos, you know, expensive things, expensive furniture and vases and picture frames
and art on the wall. I mean there`s a lot of expensive stuff in there. But the estimated personal property is listed as --
PELTZ: It`s nothing.
BANFIELD: It`s blank. Annual income expected from all sources, presumably, when you work in the kind of company that Shanann was working
for, Thrive she would have small warehoused items, you know, things that were still yet to be shipped out or she would have invoices that had yet to
be paid. So, technically she could have still have income that was still to arrive. And yet what`s listed?
PELTZ: None of that is listed in these documents at all.
BANFIELD: So, there`s really no value that anyone has described to her personal property or her future assets that are forthcoming. Nothing like
that?
PELTZ: Not yet.
BANFIELD: So there seems to be a sense of urgency in this whole series of documents that was filed. They`re looking for an emergency hearing on this
probate issue. What is the rush?
PELTZ: Right. According to Shanann`s father, Frank. He says he wants to take care of Shanann`s affairs, and even says some are time sensitive, we
don`t know exactly what he is referring to, but I will say, in these documents he mentions life insurance and a car. Presumably her car.
BANFIELD: So, Parag Shah, I want you to jump in if you will on this issue. Parag is a defense attorney, he is also author of the book called "The
Code." Help me walk me through a little bit what is normally a very boring topic. Probate court is almost never covered unless it`s Anna Nicole
Smith. Or say, a case like this, but what is the significance of what Kyle just reported, and that is, there is this request for an emergency hearing,
time sensitive issues? Tell me, walk me through it.
PARAG SHAH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Sure. Absolutely, so, when you die, your spouse, if you die without a will, your spouse normally gets everything,
but if your spouse is the reason you`re dead, then that is a challenge that the family members can make in probate court. So they`re making this
challenge saying, look the husband is the one who`s the wrong doer here, someone else needs to be in charge of her estate. So an administrator will
be appointed. And it could be anybody in the family. Whoever would be best suited to handle her affairs and so they are going to a court saying
look, we need an emergency hearing to make me, Frank, the person to handle this estate. It should not be the husband, because he is the reason we`re
in this mess. And we got life insurance, other people contacting us ready to disperse money to beneficiaries and the husband is not the right person
to make those decisions.
BANFIELD: So, I mean, that is a fascinating aspect as well. Because the only life insurance documents that we saw were work related. And Kyle, I
think you remember those documents, we got those early in the case. This was I think before Cece was really in the picture. Because Shanann is
listed as -- I think one of the policyholders on his work insurance, correct and also Bella.
PELTZ: Right. It is from 2015, Chris was working at Anadarko at the time. He had just got hire on that oil company. But we know he had at least
child life insurance back then.
BANFIELD: So, without Cece on the policy and at least with -- was there a policy taken out on Shanann as well, as we all remember Bella, I am trying
to think back seven weeks --
PELTZ: I believe there was also spousal life insurance.
BANFIELD: So real quickly, Parag, what would that mean if the parents in this case. That Rzucek family had filed this probate case and say we need
an emergency hearing, because of time sensitive issues like, the car, I will get to that in a moment, and the life insurance, is that they`re
looking to become the beneficiaries to keep Chris Watts from being the beneficiary? And spending that money, let say on, jail cost?
SHAH: So it depends on how the life insurance policy is. So normally life insurance policies have layers of beneficiaries. If it can`t go to one, it
will go to the next. If it is already exhausted, meaning the kids and the husband, and yes, the state in one of the duties of the administrator is to
figure out where that money should go and how it should be disperse and among who of which would go to.
BANFIELD: I cannot imagine what it`s like for a guy sitting in a cell, 23/7. That is 23 hours a day with only one hour to go out and do some
reading, to be hand delivered one of these to his cell. Because he is not going to the mail room, but they mailed this documents to him. It was
listed right there. Officially it was delivered to his address, the Weld County Jail. He would be reading these over. And you are a defense
attorney, you know how your defendants react when they get this kind of news. What would this be saying to him and what would he and his attorneys
be doing with this?
SHAH: Well, there`s going to be a time frame in which he has to object, to say look, I`m the proper person to be handling these matters. And so
initially he is going to look at it like, man, I really don`t want to be cut out of this stuff, because I`m sure he needs -- he probably wants to
use that money for experts or other thing. I know he has a public defender, but he could use some income at this point. And he doesn`t want
to be taken off all the documents, because he says he didn`t do anything wrong.
[18:10:08] BANFIELD: Can you explain one line to me? It may mean nothing. But it sort of stood out to me my spidey sense are tingling. Parag, it
says, the nominee has priority for appointment because -- and they checked off the box that says, statutory priority. Are they saying that somewhere
in Colorado law, we are the people that should be adjudicating this probate, because that guy is in a cell and may ultimately end up a
convicted murderer or is it something much less than that?
SHAH: So, it`s similar to what you`re saying, every statute in the United States has that (inaudible) that says if you`re the wrong doer, you can`t
be the proper person. And so there is a statute in Colorado that probably says something like, if this is the person is the wrongdoer, who is
supposed to go to, then statutorily the parents or somebody else can come and be the right person. So, it`s a mix of both of those things.
BANFIELD: Do these clients typically get really angry when they receive this kind of news? When they`re locked up?
SHAH: I think most paperwork that they get, regarding the ancillary things that are dealing with the criminal case, they become very angry and
confused, and there`s not a lot of legal advice they can get. You know the criminal lawyer may only know the things doing with the criminal case and
may not have the ability to advise him what to do in probate court. And he may not have the money to hire a lawyer to do it so at the end of the day,
he may not file an objection or this may just go through the probate court without him saying anything.
BANFIELD: Hey, Parag, is it a big problem that she didn`t have a will?
Listen, there are so many Americans that don`t have a will? I mean, a lot of people think about it the minute they get pregnant. Some people think,
oh, my goodness, I`ll get around to that, but is this a big problem for Shanann`s family if she didn`t have a will?
SHAH: In her situation, no, because most likely if she had a will, her will would have said everything goes to my husband, or in an alternative
everything goes to my kids. Because they`re not in the picture. Most likely an estate was going to get set up anyway, or somebody was going to
have to intervene, because if she had a will that is probably what it would say.
BANFIELD: And the state will step in and adjudicate for the lack of all of that, correct?
SHAH: Right.
BANFIELD: Kyle, I want you to bring in, what I think might be one of the biggest bombshell in this probate news and it is the last page. It always
the last page. If you ever get a court filing, go to the very last page and read backwards. It is a tiny little piece of print that tells what the
next step is in this case, and if you have a drink, if you`re in the middle of sipping it, hold on, swallow it, because you don`t want to be spraying
your living room with your cup of coffee. What is it?
PELTZ: It`s on the last page, they`re going to have a court hearing about this matter, it`s going to be a telephone court hearing, and everyone`s
going to dial into one telephone number. Because Shanann`s family, they live in North Carolina. Chris is in Colorado. But Chris presumably
according to this documents is going to be part of that call. So Shanann`s family may have to sit on the phone with her accused killer as they sort
this matter out.
BANFIELD: So, let me get this straight. For seven weeks this family has been barely able to breathe. Has had their life completely upended. Have
had to file probate in their daughter`s death and the death of their granddaughters and now may have to actually have a chat on the phone with
the man accused of doing it all. Is that what that paperwork says?
PELTZ: That is exactly right. He may be dialing in from the Weld County Jail on the phone with Shanann`s parents.
BANFIELD: And so just so I`m clear, Parag Shah that is what that means, right? It doesn`t mean only your representative, when you have a
representative, when you have a lawyer, it means you too. You have the right to be part of your defense and your representation, you have the
right to be present for all of these processes, whether they`re on the phone or in person, correct?
SHAH: Right. He has the right to be there, he can be there. Most likely his defense lawyer will probably tell him to invoke the fifth, not say
anything, and maybe just file a written objection or something of that nature. But most likely his lawyer is going to tell him not to say
anything.
BANFIELD: Can I ask you something Parag?
SHAH: Sure.
BANFIELD: I don`t know if anyone knows the answer to this, it is sort of in a (inaudible), but in this case, it matters, would the family be
notified of every person on that call even if he or she decides not to speak? Meaning, if Chris Watts is on that call and listening in real-time
and decides not to say a word. Is the family at least entitled to know he is on the line?
SHAH: All parties are notified of any conference calls, scheduling, and courts, so because the family is a party to the petition, they`re going to
be notified of everything, regarding who`s on what call, who is at what court hearing and all of this things.
BANFIELD: Have you ever had a call like that in your practice? Parag, have you ever had to sit through anything like this?
SHAH: No, and thank goodness. I never want to ever sit through anything like this. This is a horrible situation and my heart goes out to the
family.
[18:15:05] BANFIELD: I cannot imagine what they are -- I don`t even know if they`ve had time to read through all the pages. I mean, this is dated,
real quickly, Kyle, this is dated just a few days ago. The filing, at least, but whether anyone`s had a chance. I don`t even know how long it
takes in the mail system to get to Chris Watts, because that was mailed. It says by mail to the Weld County Jail, and then it has to go through the
mail system in the jail. And then it has to get to delivered to an inmate and an inmate that is under close watch priority or close watch protocol
like he is, may have a little delay in the mail, they have to search through everybody`s mail, they have to make sure there`s no contraband. I
don`t even or if he has this yet.
PELTZ: Right. At least as of yesterday, it appears that Chris Watts has received a copy of all of this.
BANFIELD: So it says, it says his lawyer as well. I remember, I think I saw something about one of the lawyers was being given a copy or at least,
but there is no address for the lawyer, so it makes me wonder if it is up to Chris -- here we go, Chris Watts is getting it, via the interoffice
mail, the Weld County Jail and into their office mail and it`s been e- served via e-mail to his Deputy public defender John Walsh. So, there you go.
Not the John Walsh you`re used to on television. It is a different John Walsh that you are going to get to use to, because he is the county, you
know assignee to this case. The public defender.
Fascinating stuff, you can imagine as Chris Watts may be waiting for the hard copy. His lawyer has probably informed him -- well-informed him of a
phone call, he may be just on with his former in-laws. And as he sits in that jail accused of killing Shanann and his daughters Bella and Cece. It
almost sounded like the unthinkable crime. No it did. Right?
But the sad reality is, it isn`t. It`s not unthinkable, it`s not even uncommon believe it or not. Almost 50 years ago, former Green Barret,
Jeffrey McDonald was convicted of killing his pregnant wife and two daughters in their own home. The similarities between these two cases,
nothing short of haunting. We`ll compare the two, break down the frightening phenomena of something called family annihilators. As Chris
Watts gets his day in court and at this point he is only accused, not yet convicted.
[18:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two little girls have reportedly been submerged in an oil well for days.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A man grieving for his missing family.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A husband and father pleading for the return of his missing wife and daughters has reportedly confessed to killing them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is absolutely the worst possible outcome.
SHANANN WATTS, VICTIM, WIFE OF CHRIS WATTS: I stuck around because he was the one for me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did this family man really turn into a family annihilator?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: It is the question that we`ve all asked from the get go. Why would Chris Watts kill his entire family, if he did it?
He allegedly told police he only killed Shanann. After she was the one who strangled the girls. But the police say not so fast, they say he killed
them all. Including those two little pig tailed angels. Those two little daughters who looked up to their father so much. He was Bella and Cece`s
hero, and by all accounts, he seemed to be a great dad. So how do you go from that kind of guy, who makes his daughter`s day, to the kind of guy who
ends their life and disposes of them in oil. It`s the kind of haunting question that makes you look to the past for answers, say as far back as
the `70s, when another man was accused of killing his pregnant wife and yes, his two children.
Dawna Kauffman is an investigative journalist. She is the author of "Final exams, true crime cases." Dawna, it`s remarkable, you thought of it right
away as soon as you heard this story, you thought of Jeffrey McDonald, you remembered the case in great detail. What are the similarities?
DAWNA KAUFFMAN, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Well, 1970 in February, Fort Brag, North Carolina. Military housing, Jeffrey a captain in the army, he
had just joined, was a green beret, and he had taken some Para trooping classes, but he wasn`t a major deal, he wasn`t a war hero as some people
seemed to think he was. He was a physician, he was Princeton trained and he was there on a football scholarship. He married his high school
sweetheart, Collette. She was 25, Jeffrey was 26, they had two daughters, Kimmy was 5, Christie was 2. And one night Jeffrey came home and a few
hours later, he called the police and said, everyone`s dead in my house, help, help.
Hippies broke in, and this was in the news then was the Manson murders in California. And those were random cases by hippies who broke in and
chanted about peace and LSD and kill the pigs, now Jeff was having the world believe that the same thing happened in North Carolina to his family.
[18:25:08] BANFIELD: Interestingly when you say that, there was actually a copy of some kind of writing material or some literature or some sort on
his table in his home about those crimes which got people thinking that perhaps this story of his may not be so true. I just want to tell people a
couple other things about this. Yes, they`re similar, they are, but we have to remember that Chris Watts is not a family annihilator at this
point, he is an accused killer. He is an accused family annihilator, he has not been convicted in this.
The comparisons are really apples and oranges, but for the facts of the accusations. In this particular case, Jeffrey McDonald used a kitchen
knife and an ice pick on his children and his wife. I mean, just the notion of this 2 and 5-year-old -- these two little girls being knifed and
killed with an ice pick. But he talked to Larry King. And he went in and out of the courts and prison systems a couple of times, through different
appeals etcetera. He was found guilty, and charges were thrown out, and then he appealed it, and then he was found guilty. He went back and forth
from being a free man to an incarcerated man, ultimately, he is now incarcerated. But this is what he said to Larry King at a time when he was
incarcerated about the moment that all of this Charles Manson like stuff began to happen. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The next thing I knew I was awakened on the couch. And I was awakened by a combination of hearing my wife screaming for help and
asking for me. And my older daughter --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Five year old?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Five-year-old yelling, screaming for help daddy, daddy, daddy. And my wife was saying Jeff, Jeff, why are they doing this, help
Jeff and there were to my immediate view, three people, it turned out they were four, but I saw three people. A black male, two white males. The
black male had an army jacket with e-6 sergeant stripes and in the ensuing struggle, there were two episodes of time, very, very brief. In which I
saw what I took to be a white female in a broad floppy hat with stringy blonde hair. I heard her say acid is groovy kill the pigs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: If I had to make up something about the `70s I would say acid is groovy killed the pigs and I would imagine in my head stringy blonde hair
girl with a floppy hat. It is a Woodstock image, I mean, it does sounds like it`s easy to craft that very, very quickly. But Dawna, this is
fascinating. This case was so big, it ended up being an NBC miniseries. And they have dramatization in this miniseries a moment where 911 -- this
is the 70`s we certainly don`t have a 911 call, but we do have what the dramatization was all that 911 call when he came too. This is what it
presumably sounded like, have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sir, hold on, sir. I have the M.P.`s on the line.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stabbing, stabbing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who is this speaking, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Medics. An ambulance. Hurt. Hurry up, I think I`m going to die.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have 544 castle drive, is that correct, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: It certainly makes for an unbelievable miniseries and it makes for the book, all the rest that came from this case, what is fascinating
Dawna is the similarities between Chris Watts` fact pattern -- alleged fact pattern and the case, you know, which is fact. Both families had two young
daughters, both of their wives were pregnant. Both McDonald`s and Watts were believed to have been romancing others. Chris Watts is alleged to
have this affair with someone at work and then this was interesting, it stood out. Possibly also men. What do you know about that when it comes
to Jeffrey McDonald?
KAUFFMAN: Jeffrey McDonald made light of the fact that he was romancing 15 women at the same time. And his psych analysis said that he had latent
homosexual tendencies, and he had a need to be famous. Two days before the murders, Collette called her family and said, I can`t stand his
philandering any more, I want to come home. And they said, honey, stick it out, its fine, you`ll get through this.
Which reminds me of Nicole Simpson brown and saying to her family, reaching out for help. And her family said, no, you know, O.J.`s is famed for
everything, hang in there.
BANFIELD: Wow. And also, perhaps even Shanann Watts, giving him growing reports on her Facebook lives when maybe this was going on. Maybe she
knew, maybe she didn`t. Dawna Kauffman thank you for that.
Real quickly, I want to bring in Dr. Daniel Bobber. Daniel Bobber as a forensic psychiatrist, after the break I want you to do something for me.
I know that you -- in your remarkable science, can actually categorize these kinds of people.
And as I understand it, you have four very clean categories of what family annihilators fit into. I am fascinated to hear what those categories are.
I am fascinated to hear what you think Chris Watts fits into. Can you stay with us till after the break?
DANIEL BOBER, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: Absolutely.
BANFIELD: That`s coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:35:00] BANFIELD: Only a forensic psychiatrist could make sense of some of the categories that I have heard you can fit a family annihilator
into. There are only four, but they`re complicated. They`re complex. They`re eerie and they are haunting. Make no mistake. When you hear
things like self-righteous killers, disappointed killers, anomic killers, and paranoid killers.
They all mean something very different. And Daniel Bober knows exactly of what he speaks. Doctor, we went to break by listing out the categories.
And you`re going to tell me why you think Chris Watts may or may not fit into these categories. But you need to explain them to me first, if you
would. Can you start with self-righteous killer and tell me what exactly that means?
BOBER: Yes, Ashleigh. This was a study that came out of Great Britain a few years ago, and they looked at 71 families. And as you named, the
various classifications they came up with four categories. A self- righteous killer is someone who feels that the wife or the mother in the family has let the family down in some way.
So for example, that could be having an affair, not tending to the family in some way. And then we have the disappointed killer. And the
disappointed killer is someone who feels like the family has left him down in some way. So in other words, it could be a child who is dating out of
faith, like an honor killing out of religious significance.
And then we have the anomic killer, which is for economic reasons. So if the father were to lose the job, the family would be poor. And so it would
reflect poorly on the father. And then finally, the paranoid killer who believes that the system is after them in some way, whether it`s the legal
system or child protective services, but the overwhelming theme here is that it`s a narcissistic injury to the father.
The family is almost like trophies in a display case. And in some way, that image becomes tarnished, because the father or the husband sees the
family as an extension of himself. He feels threatened and acts out violently.
BANFIELD: Let me ask you this. I am going to read off a couple of cases that we found. And I am going to ask you a couple of questions about them.
At least we have about eight different ones. John List murdered his mother and his wife and three children back in 1971. Ronald Gene Simmons murdered
14 of his family members, 8 of them were kids.
And of course, shockingly, this happened at Christmas back in 87. Charles Stewart murdered his pregnant wife in 1989. He blamed it on an imaginary
black man. This comes up again and again, Dr. Bober, murdering wives.
BOBER: You know there are a lot of reasons this could happen. Again, maybe they feel their own standing as a husband is being threatened. But
overwhelmingly, you know, these are not men who have been failures their whole lives. A lot of these people in the study were corporate executives.
And some of them were even serving police officers.
So these are people that no one really saw it coming. They tend to be white males in their 30s, and successful, and from all outward appearances
really seem to have it all together.
BANFIELD: So Phillip Austin murdered his wife, and again, here we are, two children back in the year 2000. Richard William Fisher allegedly murdered
his wife and two children in 01. Currently, he`s on the FBI 10 most wanted list. Get a look at that face. If you know him, if you`ve seen him, stay
away and call the police immediately.
Scott Peterson, I don`t think we need any explanation there. That happened in 2002, again a pregnant wife. Neil Entwistle murdered his wife and baby
daughter. He shot her and through her, the bullet went into that little baby. And Josh Powell believed to have murdered his wife, Susan. I
remember this story. I covered it. She disappeared in 09. She`s never been found.
He then murdered their s two sons and ended up killing himself. How often do these -- and it`s odd that it`s all men. Maybe there`s a female family
annihilator. I don`t know. But maybe answer both of those questions.
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: Are they ever women. And also how often do they leave a child behind.
BOBER: Yes, they are women. The majority of time they are men, 81 percent of the time they kill themselves. And interestingly enough, there`s a
theory about why there`s been an uptick in these sorts of crimes. It has something to do with the fact that as women have become more independent
and more financially stable, the men are -- it`s a backlash.
[18:40:10] In other words, the men feel like they`re losing their position of authority and their power structure in the family. And so it seems to
be that the theory is that it`s a backlash against women`s independence.
BANFIELD: Which of these four would Chris Watts fit into if he were convicted of being a family annihilator? He`s accused only right now. He
doesn`t compare to the others, but which would he fit into?
BOBER: You know I don`t think we have all the facts yet. I mean we know that he was -- there was infidelity going on. There may have been some
financial problems. And we know that the top two reasons this happens is a breakdown in the family, a divorce, for example, or financial struggles.
So it`s hard to say until we have all the facts.
BANFIELD: Sometimes it`s helpful to get these categories when something is just so confusing. I want you to stick around if you will, Dr. Bober. In
the meantime, James Gagliano, as a CNN, you know, law enforcement analyst, retired FBI supervisory special agent. You also have categories. You also
are able to neatly package a lot of this very sort of frighteningly complex and sometimes -- frankly, hard to believe fact patterns.
After the break, I want you to explain to me what the four L`s are and how it may apply to this case as well. Wow, that`s a tease. Don`t go away.
We`re back right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:45:00]
BANFIELD: It`s usually the W question, why? Why does a killer kill? Why would someone kill his entire family? Did Chris Watts kill his entire
family? And if he did, are there any other letters that might apply? James Gagliano is a retired FBI supervisory special agent, CNN law
enforcement analyst. You are amazing, how you break this down. It`s a lot of book work. But it`s also empirical data.
It`s not sort of theory. You break this down from statistics and you have come up with these four L`s. What are the four L`s when it comes to
classifying killers?
JAMES GAGLIANO, LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, CNN: So first of all, Ashleigh, why is it motive so important? From the law enforcement perspective, we
want to look at something and try to explain it so we can prevent it from happening again. Now I would love to take credit for the four L`s. You
know I`ve been talking about this.
But an author by the name of P. D. James actually wrote a book called the murder room in 2003. And in it, she basically listed these four things
that you can really narrow down every motivation belonging to a homicide. And they are in this order, love, lust, lucre, which is from the Latin
lucrum, which means money or filthy money, meaning ill-gotten gains, and loathing.
So those four L`s you can really narrow down every single motivation for murder, and put them into that.
BANFIELD: So as officers are working through the investigation, and I`m assuming that police officers are still working. And the case is not over.
They`re turning everything that they have in an open investigation over to the D.A. Are they going by these principles? Are they saying OK, let`s
figure out everything we have that has to do with love.
Let`s figure out -- put the graphic up again if you would please, so I can just sort of follow along. Let`s the figure out everything that has to do
with -- the difference between love and lust could be say the girlfriend, the alleged mistress at work. The money (Inaudible) follow the money no
matter what. And the loathing, I mean do they actually -- do they do this as a formula, the mapping process?
GAGLIANO: Right. So I am going to take off my detective hat for a minute. And I`m going to put on my academic hat, because I teach criminal justice
at St. John`s University. Here`s how this works. Officers first start from the rational choice theory. And the rational choice theory says every
one of us that could potentially commit a crime acts on our own self- interest.
We do a risk reward cost benefit analysis. Can I get away with this? And if I don`t get away with this, what is the cost to me? What is the
penalty? How much time in jail? Am I facing the death penalty? That`s where people typically start from the criminal justice or the criminology
perspective. And then you move down to the motivations.
And yes, officers from different precincts or from different parts of the country or from different agencies, they may look at them slightly
differently. They may look at the seven deadly sins and try to tie something into that. They may have different schematics for motivations.
But I have looked at this, and in this case, the Chris Watts case, all four of them apply or could possibly apply.
BANFIELD: And as Dr. Bober said earlier, we still have to wait on some of the facts in this case to come out, because really, it is so complicated.
Look at the face. It doesn`t make sense. That guy, that guy, that guy right there, it just doesn`t make sense. I feel like I could fit anybody
into the four L`s if I can fit this guy in these picture.
But once we start to really hear what the cops have, it may make a lot more sense. Let me read a quick Facebook question from (Inaudible) Davis. I
think this is (Inaudible) it fits in with what you`re talking about, James. (Inaudible) asks this. Do you think it`s possible that Shanann Watts knew
Chris was having affairs, but assumed they were all women?
[18:49:53] Perhaps she discovered that he was having affairs with men? And threatened to leave him and expose every one of this. She confronts
him and kills her, just a thought. With that question, there`s a lot of reporting that`s already happened on this case. Randy Corporan is a Host
with NewsTalk 710 KNUS. This is your backyard in Denver, Randy.
And you have followed this case moment by moment. And when Rick C. Davis asks that question, I feel like you have the answer. After the break, can
you give it to me?
RANDY CORPORAN, HOST, NEWSTALK 710 KNUS: We`ll give it a shot.
BANFIELD: OK, back right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:55:00] BANFIELD: There has been so much made of Chris Watts` sex life. Now that he`s locked up 23/7, accused of murdering his wife and two
kids, just what was he up to all summer long while that wife and kids were on summer vacation in North Carolina. Well, if he believed what the police
told us, he`s admitted at least he`s been forced to admitting about an affair with someone at work.
And from our reporting, a source close to the investigation tells us that woman at work is cooperating, and telling the police what they need to know
about the love affair that she had with him. So Randy Corporan, as a reporter out in Denver, this has got to be the talk. What was he up to?
What were the motives? And that question from Rick C. Davis is really important.
Is it possible that Shanann may have found out about an affair? Be it a man or a woman, what do you know about this love life of his?
CORPORAN: Well, it`s important to remember that only 50 days have elapsed. And we`ve gotten so little information from the police on this case so far.
You actually were closer to one person who came out and said that he was the gay lover of Chris Watts. I can only really report from this end on my
own personal experience having raised children, young children to adulthood.
And during those years, I wasn`t focused on gee, how do I look, am I working out enough, am I getting all buffed up. And Chris Watts was going
through all of those machinations, all of those experiences during the run up to this horrible, horrible crime. So it`s as fair an assessment or a
question as any.
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: People Magazine has (Inaudible) saying he had many affairs both men and women. So that is definitely facts that you`re waiting on. Rita
Smith asked this on Facebook. If it is proven that Shanann did kill the children, could they still charge Chris Watts with the way he disposed of
the children`s bodies.
Parag Shah, he`s been charged with that. I guess the better question is they could still convict him of that. But it wouldn`t be much, would it?
PARAG SHAH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, tampering with evidence is not going to carry a life sentence like the murder charges will. But they can
definitely convict him of disposing of the bodies in that way and still find him not guilty of the murder. I mean he confessed on TV. That charge
is -- he might as well just plead guilty to that one.
BANFIELD: Yeah. And then there is this question from Holly (Inaudible). It could be. I`m sorry if I`m mispronouncing it. I wonder if she was
buried with her wedding ring or did he remove that beforehand. James Gagliano, that is a huge fact that I think would matter. If he`s just
disposing of bodies because he`s afraid after he said he did it all in self defence, but happens to say remove that ring. Does that tell us anything
investigatively?
GAGLIANO: Well, I mean obviously bodies decompose. Clothing decomposes. The bones and teeth take longer. Maybe his thought was I don`t want to
leave anything there that could possibly be a clue later on if somebody happens upon this grave 50 years from now.
BANFIELD: Yeah. I think that is actually a very fascinating aspect of this particular case. Do I have time for another question or do we have to
go out to break? We have got to break. But you know what? We`re back in just a moment. In fact, the next hour of Crime and Justice is coming up
right a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HLN, HOST: It`s because it`s sealed. But it doesn`t mean it`s sealed forever. That is still up in the air as to when we will
know cause of death, and there is even more breaking news to tell you about tonight. And that is that Shanann Watts did not have a will. We know this
because important paperwork has just been filed.
It`s her probate paperwork, by her family, the family that came to Colorado to tie up loose ends, to pick up some of her things and the children`s
things from that home and to attend a memorial service. Looks like they are filing important paperwork to hash out just what goes where now that
she`s dead, Bella`s dead, Cece`s dead and Chris Watts is still alive. I want to bring in Kyle Peltz our Crime and Justice Producer who`s just
gotten his hands on these documents. There`s a lot in here that`s interesting, and a lot in here that isn`t. What might be missing that`s
fascinating is the fact there`s no will.
KYLE PELTZ, CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER: Right. We know Shanann`s family as we reported was in Colorado last week moving items removing items from
the house. Now we know they were also at the courthouse apparently dealing with the fact that Shanann did not have a will.
BANFIELD: So what`s fascinating in these documents, I`m noting is some of the technical language that most people wouldn`t think twice about, when
filling out a formal piece of court paperwork. Check off boxes, perfunctory questions and answers. But some of these are sad. I mean,
when I look at them, I look at it with a completely different prism now given the fact that they`re having to fill out whose survived her and I
think maybe what `s most tell is that they had to - they had to fill out who didn`t survive her.
PELTZ: Right and I think we have a graphic of this but there`s a line. I mean it stuck out to me as well in these probate documents where it asked
if Shanann any surviving children. And there`s a box checked no. also notable and you can see it there, Chris Watts` address is listed as the
Weld County Jail now
BANFIELD: I also noticed deep in the paperwork that these documents have been delivered. They were sent by mail to him and I think they were sent
several days ago as well. So he`s probably reading this material over maybe in the hour out room. Given he`s not allowed to have reading
material in his cell. But He`s reading over these documents, realizing he`s not the only game in town right now when it comes to all of the things
that technically, you know, belonged to Shanann, belonged to the family. Three quarters of that family is dead now. This isn`t an easy - this isn`t
an easy formula for them to sift through?
PELTZ: No, it`s not. The big question is, who owns what in that house. Who it belongs to.
BANFIELD: They had a lot of expensive things too.
PELTZ: They had many expensive things in their house even their house was a very expensive home.
BANFIELD: Yes. She had a Lexus. I don`t know if that was fully paid for. That was something she was getting $800 a month, I think, from
Thrive, the company where she worked. He had a truck.
It was confiscated. The police took it. I don`t think it`s never been returned anywhere, we certainly never saw it parked back out in front of
that house. Do they ever list any of the assets in the probate paperwork to suggest what - what they`re looking at or what the family is listing
that she actually has?
PELTZ: Right. There`s a section in this court filing that actually, you know, it`s a box where you can list how much your home is worth and
property, and all of that is left blank in these documents.
BANFIELD: I`m seeing it here. Estimated value of real estate and it`s left blank. And we think that home was somewhere in the 300, maybe $400
range - $400,000 range if I recall.
PELTZ: That`s exactly right. Yes.
BANFIELD: And then estimated value of personal property. Well Shanann had to have had a lot of personal property. Her own personal things, her
family mementos that the family said to us they came to get. They came to collect some of the things that were heirlooms, passed down. Shanann`s
personal things.
Look at the things in the background of all of these videos, you know, expensive things, expensive furniture and vases and picture frames and art
on the wall. I mean there`s a lot of expensive stuff in there but the estimated personal property is listed as -
PELTZ: There`s nothing.
BANFIELD: Blank. Annual income expected from all sources. Presumably, when you work in the kind of company that Shanann was working for, Thrive.
She would have, you know, small warehoused items, you know, things that were still yet to be shipped out or she would have invoices that had yet to
be paid. So technically she could have still had income that was still to arrive. And yet what`s listed?
PELTZ: None of that is listed in these documents at all.
BANFIELD: So there`s really no value that anyone has ascribed to her personal property or her future assets that are forthcoming, nothing like
that?
PELTZ: Not yet.
BANFIELD: So there seems to be a sense of urgency in this whole series of documents that was filed. They`re looking for an emergency hearing on this
probate issue. What is the rush?
PELTZ: Right. According to Shanann`s father Frank, he says he wants to take care of Shanann`s affairs. And he even says some are time sensitive.
We don`t know exactly what he`s referring to. But I will say, in these documents he mentions life insurance and a car, presumably her car.
BANFIELD: So Paragh Shah, I want you to jump if you will on this issue. Paragh is a Defense Attorney. He`s also author of the book called The Code
in. Help me walk through a little bit of what is normally a boring topic. Probate court is almost never covered unless it`s Anna Nicole Smith, or a
case like this. But what is the significance that Kyle just reported, there`s an emergency hearing, time sensitive issues? Tell me -- walk me
through it.
PARAGH SHAH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Sure, absolutely. When you die, your spouse -- if you die without a will, your spouse normally gets everything.
But if your spouse is the reason you`re dead then that`s a challenge that the family members can make in probate court. And so they`re making this
challenge saying, the husband is the one who`s the wrong doer here, someone else needs to be in charge of her estate and so an administrator will be
appointed.
And it could be anybody in the family, whoever would be best suited to handle her affairs. And so they`re going into court saying, we need an
emergency hearing to make me, Frank, the person to handle this estate. It should not be the husband because he`s the reason we`re in this mess. And
got have life insurance, other people contacting us, ready to disburse money to beneficiaries. And the husband is not the right person to make
those decisions.
BANFIELD: So I mean that`s a fascinating aspect as well because the only life insurance documents we saw were work related. And Kyle, I think you
remember those documents. We got those early in the case.
This was before Cece was in the picture because Shanann is listed as -- one of the policyholders on his work insurance, correct? And also Bella.
PELTZ: Right, it`s from 2015. Chris was working at Anadarko at the time. He had just gotten hired at that oil company. But we know he had at least
child life insurance back then.
BANFIELD: So without Cece on the policy and at least with the child - and was there a policy taken out on Shanann as well or do we only remember
Bella? I`m trying to think back seven weeks or --
PELTZ: I believe there - I believe there was also spousal life insurance.
BANFIELD: So real quickly Paragh, what would that mean if the parents in this case, If the Rzucek family has filed this probate case, we need an
emergency hearing many there`s time sensitive issues like the car, I`ll get to that in a moment, and the life insurance. Is that they`re looking to
become the beneficiaries to keep Chris Watts from becoming the beneficiary and then spending that money say on jail costs?
SHAH: So it depends how the life insurance policy is written. So normally, they have layers of beneficiaries. If it can`t go to one, it
will go to the next. If it`s already exhausted, meaning the kids and the husband, then yes, the state -- one of the duties of the administrator is
to figure out where that money should go, and how it should be dispersed and among who it should go to.
BANFIELD: I cannot imagine what it`s like for a guy sitting in a cell, 23/7. That`s 23 hours a day with, only one hour to go out and do some
reading, to be hand delivered one of these to his cell because he`s not going to the mailroom. But they mailed these documents to him. It`s
listed right there.
Officially it was delivered. His address is the Weld County Jail. He would be reading these over. And you`re the Defense Attorney, you know how
your defendants react when they get this kind of news. What would this be saying to him and what would he and his attorneys be doing with this?
SHAH: Well there`s going to be a time frame in which he has to object to say look I`m the proper person to be handling these matters. And so
initially he`s going to look at it like, man I really don`t want to be cut out of this stuff because I`m sure he needs -- he probably wants to use
that money for experts or other things.
I know he has a public defender. He could use some income at this point. And he doesn`t want to be taken off all the documents, because he says he
didn`t do anything wrong.
BANFIELD: Can you take - can you explain one line to me? It may mean nothing. It sort of stood out to me and my spidey senses are tingling.
Paragh, it says the nominee has priority for appointment because -- and they checked off the box that says, statutory priority. Are they saying
that somewhere in Colorado Law, we are the people that should be adjudicating this probate, because that guy is in a cell and may ultimately
end up being a convicted murder or is it something much less than that?
SHAH: So it`s similar to what you`re saying. Every statute in the United States that says if you`re the wrong doer, you can`t be the proper person.
And so, there is a statute in Colorado that probably says something if this is the person is the wrong doer who it`s supposed to go to, then
statutorily, the parents or someone else can come and be the right person. So it`s a mix of both of nose things.
BANFIELD: Do these clients typically get angry when they receive this kind of news? when they`re locked up?
SHAH: I think most paperwork that they get regarding the ancillary things that aren`t dealing with the criminal case, become very -- they become very
angry and confused. And there`s not a lot of legal advice they can get.
The criminal lawyer may only know the things dealing with the criminal case and may not have the ability to advise him on what to do in probate court.
And he may not have the money to hire a lawyer to do it. So at the end of the day, he may not file an objection or this may just go through the
probate court without him saying anything.
BANFIELD: Hey Paragh is it a big problem that she didn`t have a will? Listen, there are so many Americans that don`t have a will. I mean, a lot
of people think about it the minute they get pregnant. Some people think oh, my goodness, I`ll get around to that. But is this a big problem for
Shanann`s family if she didn`t have a will?
SHAH: In her situation, no, because most likely if she had a will, her will would have said everything goes to my husband, or in the alternative,
everything goes to my kids because they`re not in the picture. Most likely an estate was going to get set up anyway, or somebody was going to have to
intervene because if she had a will, that`s probably what it was going to say.
BANFIELD: And the state will jump in and adjudicate for the lack of all of that, correct?
SHAH: Right. Yes. Yes.
BANFIELD: Kyle, I want to bring in what I think might of the biggest bombshells in this probate news. And it`s the last page. It always is.
It`s always the last page.
If you ever get a court filing, go to the very last page and read backwards. It`s a tiny piece of print that tells what the next step is in
this case, if you have a drink, if you`re in the middle of sipping it, hold on, swallow it because you don`t want to be spraying your living room with
your cup of coffee. What is it?
PELTZ: Like you said it`s on the last page. They`re going to have a court hearing about this matter. It`s going to be a telephone court hearing.
Everyone is going to dial into one telephone number because Shanann`s family they live in North Carolina. Chris is in Colorado. But Chris,
presumably, according to these documents, is going to be part of that call. So Shanann`s family may have to sit on the phone with her accused killer as
they sort this matter out.
BANFIELD: So let me get this straight. For seven weeks this family has been barely able to breathe, has had their life completely upended, have
had to file probate in their daughter`s death and the death of their granddaughters and now may have to have a chat on the phone with the man
accused of doing it all. Is that what that paperwork says?
PELTZ: That`s exactly right. He may be dialing in from the weld county jail on the phone with Shanann`s parents.
BANFIELD: And so just so I`m clear Paragh Shah, that`s what that means, right? It doesn`t mean only your representative. When you have a
representative, when you have a lawyer, it means you too. You have the right to be part of your defense and your representation, you have the
right to be present for all of these processes, whether they`re on the phone or in person, correct?
SHAH: Right. He has the right to be there, he can be there. Most likely his defense lawyer will probably tell him to invoke the fifth, not say
anything, and maybe just file a written objection or something of that nature. But most likely his lawyer is going to tell him not to say
anything.
BANFIELD: Can I ask you something, Paragh?
SHAH: Sure.
BANFIELD: And I don`t know if anyone knows the answer to this, it`s kind of in the weeds. But in this case, it matters. Would the family be
notified of every person on that call even if he or she decides not to speak? Meaning, if Chris Watts is on that call and listening in real time
and decides not to say a word, is the family at least entitled to know he`s on the line?
SHAH: All parties are notified of any conference calls, scheduling, courts because the family is a party to the petition, they`re going to be notified
of everything regarding who`s on what call, at what court hearing, all those things.
BANFIELD: Have you ever had a call like that in your practice, Paragh? Have you ever had to sit through anything like this?
SHAH: No. No and thank goodness. I never want to ever sit through anything like this. This is a horrible situation and my heart goes out to
the family.
BANFIELD: I cannot imagine what they are -- I don`t know if they`ve had time to read through all the pages. I mean - but this is dated real quickly
Kyle. This is dated just a few days ago, the filing, at least whether anyone`s had a chance to read -- I don`t even know how long it takes in the
mail system to get to Chris Watts because that was mailed. It says by mail to the Weld County Jail, and then it has to go through the mail system in
the jail. And then it has to get delivered to an inmate.
And an inmate that`s under close watched priority or protocol like he is and may have a little delay in the mail. They got to search through
everybody`s mail. They got to make sure there`s no contraband. I don`t even know if he has this yet. I don`t even know if he has this yet.
PELTZ: Right. Well at least as of yesterday, it appears that Chris Watts has received a copy of this.
BANFIELD: So it says, it says his lawyer as well. I remember. I think I saw something about one of the lawyers was being given a copy or at least -
but there`s no address for the lawyer, so it makes me wonder if it`s up to Chris - no here you go, Chris Watts is getting it via the interoffice mail,
the Weld County Jail Interoffice Mail. And it`s been e served via e-mail to his Deputy Public Defender John Walsh. So there you go.
Not the John Walsh you`re used to on television. This is different John Walsh that you`re going to get used to because he`s the county, you know,
assignee to this case. The public defender. Fascinating stuff. You can imagine as Chris Watts maybe waiting for the hard copy his lawyer has
probably informed - well informed him of a phone call he may be on with his former in-laws.
And as he sits in that jail accused of killing Shanann and his daughters Bella and Cece. It sounded like the unthinkable crime. No, it did, right?
But the sad reality is that it isn`t. It`s not unthinkable. It`s not even uncommon believe it or not.
Almost 50 years ago, Jeffrey MacDonald was convicted of killing his pregnant wife and two daughters in their own home. The similarities
between these two cases, nothing short of haunting. We`ll compare the two, break down the frightening phenomena of something called family
annihilators. As Chris Watts gets his day in court and at this point he`s only accused, not yet convicted.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Two little girls have reportedly been submerged in an oil well for days. A man grieving for his missing family.
UNIDENTIFIELD FEMALE: A husband and father, who pleaded for the return of his missing wife and daughters has reportedly confessed to killing them
UNIDENTIFIELD MALE: This is absolutely the worst possible outcome.
SHANNAN WATTS, WIFE OF CHRIS WATTS: I stuck around because he was the one for me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Did this family man really turn into a family annihilator? It is the question we`ve all asked from the get go. Why would Chris Watts
kill his entire family, if he did it? He allegedly told police he only killed Shanann after she was the one who strangled the girls. But the
police say, not so fast. They say he killed them all including the two little pig tailed angels.
Those two little daughters who looked up to their father so much. He was Bella and Cece`s hero and by all accounts, he seemed to be a great dad.
How do you go from that kind of guy, who makes his daughter`s day, to the kind of guy who ends their lives and disposes of them in oil? It`s the
kind of haunting question that makes you look to the past for answers, say as far back as the 70s, when another man was accused of killing his
pregnant wife and his two children. Donna Kaufmann is an investigative journalist. She`s the author of Final Exams, A True Crime Case.
Donna, it`s remarkable, you thought of it right away as soon as you heard this story. You thought of Jeffrey MacDonald , you remembered the case in
great detail. Walk me through it. What are the similarities?
DONNA KAUFMANN, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Well, 1970 in February, Fort Bragg, North Carolina, Military Housing, Jeffrey a captain in the army. He
had just joined, was a green beret, and he had taken some paratrooping classes. But he wasn`t a major deal. He wasn`t a war hero as some people
seemed to think he was.
He was a physician. He was Princeton trained and he was there on a football scholarship. He married his high school sweetheart, Collette. She
was 25, Jeffrey was 26. They had two daughters, Kimmy was five, Christie was two. And one night Jeffrey came home and a few hours later, he called
the police and said, everyone`s dead in my house, help, help. Hippies broke in, and this was -- in the news then was the Manson murders in
California.
And those were random cases by hippies who broke in, chanted about peace and LSD and kill the pigs. And now Jeff was having the world believe that
the same thing happened in North Carolina to his family.
BANFIELD: Interestingly when you say that, there was a copy of some kind of writing material or some literature of some sort on his table in his
home about those crimes which got people thinking that perhaps this story of his may not be so true. But I just want to tell people a couple other
things about this. Yes, they`re similar. They are.
But we have to remember that Chris Watts is not a family annihilator at this point. He`s an accused killer. He is an accused family annihilator.
But he`s not been convicted in this. So the comparisons are really apples and oranges but for the facts of the accusations.
In this particular case, Jeffrey MacDonald used a kitchen knife and an ice pick on his children and wife. I mean just the notion of this two and five
year-old -- these two little girls being knifed and killed with an ice pick. But he talked to Larry King. And, you know, he went in and out of
the courts and prison systems a couple times through different appeals, et cetera.
He was found guilty, and charges were thrown out, then he appealed it, and found guilty. He went back and forth from being a free man to an
incarcerated man. Ultimately, he`s now incarcerated. But this is what he said to Larry King at a time he was incarcerated about the moment that all
of this Charles Manson like stuff began to happen. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEFFREY MACDONALD, CONVICTED KILLER: The next thing I knew I was awakened on the couch. And I was awakened by a combination of hearing my wife
screaming for help and asking for me. And my older daughter -
LARRY KING, TELEVISION HOST: A five-year-old?
MACDONALD: Five year-old yelling, screaming for help p daddy, daddy, daddy. And my wife was saying Jeff, Jeff? Why are they doing this? Help
Jeff. In my immediate view, there were three people. It turned out there were four but I saw three people, a black male, two white males, a black
male, had on an army jacket with E6 sergeant stripes and in the ensuing struggle there were two episodes of time, very, very brief, in which I saw
what I took to be a white female in a - in a broad floppy hat with stringy blonde layer. I heard her say acid is groovy. Kill the pigs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: If I had to make up something about the 70s. I would say acid is groovy kill the pigs and I would imagine a stringy blonde girl in a
floppy hat. It`s every Haight-Ashbury. It`s every Woodstock image.
I mean it does sound like it`s easy to craft that very, very quickly. But Donna this is fascinating. This case was so big, it ended up being an NBC
Miniseries. And they dramatized in this miniseries a moment where 911 - and this is the 70s. So we don`t necessarily have the 911 call. But we do
have what the dramatization was of that 911 call when he came too. And this is what it presumably sounded like, have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sir, hold on, sir. I have the MPs on the line.
UNIDENTIFIELD MALE: Stabbing, stabbing.
UNIDENTIFIELD MALE: Who is this speaking, sir
UNIDENTIFIELD MALE: Medics. Get an ambulance. Hurt. Hurry up, I think I`m going to die.
UNIDENTIFIELD MALE: I have 544 castle drive, is that correct, sir? Hello?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: It certainly makes for an unbelievable miniseries and it makes for the book that came from this case. What is fascinating Donna is the
similarities between Chris Watts` fact pattern, alleged fact pattern and the case which is fact with Jeffrey MacDonald.
Both families had two young daughters. Both of their wives were pregnant. Both MacDonald `s and Watts were believed to have been romancing others.
Chris Watts is alleged to have had this affair with someone at work. And then this was interesting, it stood out, possibly also men. What do you
know about that when it comes to Jeffrey MacDonald ?
KAUFMANN: Jeffrey MacDonald made light of the fact that he was romancing 15 women at the same time. And his psych analysis said he had latent
homosexual tendencies, and he had a need to be famous. Two days before the murders, Collette called her family and said, I can`t stand his
philandering any more, I want to come home. And they said, honey, stick it out, its fine, you`ll get through this which reminds me of Nicole Brown
Simpson and saying to her family, reaching out for help. Her family said, no, OJ`s (ph) paying for everything, hang in there.
BANFIELD: Wow and also, perhaps even Shanann Watts, even giving him growing reports on her Facebook, you know, her Facebook Lives when maybe
this was going on. Maybe she knew, maybe she didn`t. Donna Kauffman thank you for that. Real quickly, I want to bring in Dr. Daniel Bober. Dr.
Daniel Bober as forensic psychiatrist after the break I want you to do something for me. I know you in your remarkable science can categorize
these kinds of people. And as I understand it, you have four very clean categories of what family annihilators fit into. I`m fascinated to hear
what those categories are. I am fascinated to hear what you think Chris Watts fits into. Can you stay with us till after the break?
DANIEL BOBER, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: Absolutely.
BANFIELD: That`s coming up next.
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ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HLN HOST: Only a forensic psychiatrist could make sense of some of the categories that I`ve heard you can fit a family annihilator
into. There are only four, but they`re complicated, complex, eerie and they are haunting. Make no mistake, when you hear things like self-righteous
killers, disappointed killers, anomic killers, and paranoid killers. They all mean something very different and Daniel Bober knows of what he speaks.
Doctor, we went to break listing out the categories and you`re going to tell me why you think Chris Watts may or may not fit into these categories
but you need to explain them to me first if you would. Can you tell me what exactly self-righteous killer means?
DANIEL BOBER, D.O.: So yes Ashleigh, this was a study that came out of Great Britain a few years ago and they looks at 71 families, as you named
the various classifications, they came up with four categories. A self- righteous killer is someone who feels that the wife or the mother in the family has let the family down in some way. For example, that could be
having an affair, not tending to the family in some way.
And then we have the disappointed killer, and the disappointed killer is someone who feels like the family has let him down in some way. So in other
words it could be a child who is dating out of faith, like an honor killing out of religious significance.
And then we have the anomic killer which is for economic reasons. So if the father were to lose the job, the family would be poor, so it would reflect
poorly on the father. And then finally, the paranoid killer who believes that the system is after them in some way, whether it`s the legal system or
child protective services, but the overwhelming theme here, is that it`s a narcissistic injury to the father. The family is almost like trophies in a
display case, and in some way that image becomes tarnished. Because the father or the husband sees the family as an extension of himself, he feels
threatened and acts out violently.
BANFIELD: Let me ask you this, I`m going to read off a couple cases we found and I`m going to ask you a couple questions about them. At least we
have about eight different ones. John List murdered his mother and his wife and three children back in 1971. Ronald Gene Simmons murdered 14 of his
family members; 8 of them were kids. And shockingly, this happened at Christmas in `87. Charles Stewart murdered his pregnant wife in 1989; he
blamed it on an imaginary black man. This comes up again and again Dr. Bober, murdering pregnant wives.
BOBER: You know there`s a lot of reasons this could happen. Again, maybe they feel their own standing as a husband is being threatened. But
overwhelmingly these are not men who have been failures their whole lives. A lot of these people in the study were corporate executives, some of them
were serving police officers. These are people that no one really saw it coming, they tend to be white males in their 30s and successful, and from
all outward appearances really seem to have it all together.
BANFIELD: So Phillip Austin murdered his wife and, again here we are, two children back in the year 2000. Richard William Fisher allegedly murdered
his wife and two children in `01. Currently he`s on the FBI 10 most wanted list, so get a look at that face. If you know him, if you`ve seen him,
stay away and call the police immediately. Scott Peterson, I don`t think we need any explanation there. That happened in 2002, again a pregnant wife.
Neil Entwistle murdered his wife and baby daughter. He shot her and through her the bullet went into the little baby. And Josh Powell believed to have
murdered his wife Susan. I remember this story, I covered it. She disappeared in `09; she`s never been found. The then murdered his two sons
and ended up killing himself. How often do these -- and it`s odd that it`s all men. Maybe there`s a female family annihilator. I don`t know. Maybe
answer both of those questions, are they ever women? How often do they leave a child behind?
BOBER: Yes they are women. The majority of the time they are men; 81 percent of the time they kill themselves. And interestingly enough, there`s
a theory about why there`s been an uptick in these sorts of crimes. It has something to do with the fact that as women have become more independent
and more financially stable, the men are -- it`s a backlash, in other words the men feel like they`re losing their position of authority, and their
power structure in the family, and so it seems to be it`s a theory is that it`s a backlash against women`s independence.
BANFIELD: Which of these four would Chris Watts fit into if he were convicted of being a family annihilator? He`s accused only right now. He
doesn`t compare to the others, which would he fit into?
BOBER: You know, I don`t think we have all the facts yet. I mean we know there was infidelity going on. There may have been some financial problems,
and we know the top two reasons this happens is a break down in the family, a divorce for example or financial struggles. So it`s hard to say until we
have all the facts.
BANFIELD: Sometimes it`s helpful to get these categories when something is just so confusing. I want you to stick around if you will Dr. Bober.
In the meantime James Gagilano as a CNN Law Enforcement Analyst, retired FBI Supervisory Special Agent. You also have categories.
You also are able to neatly package a lot of this very, sort of frightenly, complex and sometimes, frankly, hard to believe fact patterns. After the
break, I want you to explain to me what the 4 L`s are and how it may apply to this case as well. Wow, that`s a tease, don`t go away. We`ll be back
right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: It`s usually the W question, why. Why does a killer kill? Why would someone kill his entire family? Did Chris Watts kill his entire
family and if he did, are there any other letters that might apply.
James Galiano is a retired FBI Supervisory Special Agent, CNN Law Enforcement Analyst. You are amazing, how you break this down. It`s a lot
of book work, but it`s also empirical data. It`s not, sort of, theory. You break this down from statistics and you have come up with these four
L`s. What are the four L`s when it comes to classifying killers?
JAMES GALIANO, RETIRED FBI SUPERVISORY SPECIAL AGENT: So, first of all I ask, why is motive so important. From a law enforcement perspective, we
want to look at something and try to explain it so we can prevent it from happening again.
Now, I`d love to take credit for the four L`s, you and I have been talking about this, but an author by the name of P.D. James actually wrote a book
called "The Murder Room" in 2003.
And in it, she basically listed these four things that you can really narrow down every motivation belonging to a homicide. And they are in this
order; love, lust, lucre, which is from the Latin lucrum which means money or filthy money, meaning ill-gotten gains, and loathing.
So those four L`s, you can really narrow down every single motivation for murder and put them into that.
BANFIELD: So, as officers are working through the investigation and I`m assuming that police officers are still working, the case is not over.
They`re turning everything that they have in an open investigation over to the D.A., are they going by these principles. Are they saying, okay, let`s
figure out everything we can that has to do with love.
Let`s figure -- put the graphic up if again, if you would please, guys, so I can just sort of follow along. Let`s figure out everything that has to
do with the difference between love and lust, could be, say, the girlfriend, the alleged mistress at work. The money, well everybody always
says, right? Follow the money no matter what. And the loathing, I mean, do they actually -- do they do this as a formula, as a mapping process?
GALIANO: All right, so I`m going to take off my detective hat for a minute and I`m going to put on my academic hat, because I teach criminal justice
to St. John`s University. Here`s how this works. Officers first start from the rational choice theory and the rational choice theory says,
everyone of us that could potentially commit a crime acts in our own self interest. We do a risk reward cost benefit analysis.
Can I get away with this and if I don`t get away with this, what is the cost to me, what is the penalty, how much time in jail, am I facing the
death penalty. That`s where people typically start from the criminal justice or the criminology perspective.
And then you move down into the motivations, and yes, officers from different precincts or from different parts of the country or from
different agencies, they may look at them slightly differently; they may look at the seven deadly sins and try to tie something into that. They may
have different schematics for motivations.
But I`ve looked at this. And this case, the Chris Watt case, all four of them apply or could possibly apply.
BANFIELD: And as Dr. Bober said earlier, we still have to wait on some of the facts in this case to come out, because really it is so -- look at the
face. It doesn`t make sense. That guy? That guy? That guy right there? It just doesn`t make sense. I feel like I could fit anybody into the four
L`s if I can fit this guy in these pictures. But once we start to really hear what the cops have, it may make a lot more sense.
Let me read a quick Facebook question from Rick-Sue Davis. I think this -- I mean it fits in with what you`re talking about James. Rick-Sue asks
this. Do you think it`s possible that Shanan Watts know Chris was having affaires but assumed they were all women? Perhpaps she discovered that he
was having affairs with men and threatened to leave him and expose everyone of this. She confronts him and he kills her. Just a thought.
With that question, there`s a lot of reporting that`s already happened on this case. Randy Corporon is a host with News Talk 710 KNUS. This is your
backyard in Denver, Randy. And you have followed this case moment by moment and when Rick-Sue Davis asks that question, I feel like you have the
answer. After the break, can you give it to me?
RANDY CORPORON, HOST ON NEWS TALK 710: We`ll give it a shot.
BANFIELD: Okay, back right after this.
(COMMERICAL BREAK)
There has been so much made of Chris Watts sex life. Now that he`s locked up 23/7, accused of murdering his wife and his two kids, just what was he
up to all summer long while that wife and kids were off on summer vacation in North Carolina. Well, if you believe what the police told us, he`s
admitted - at least he`s been forced into admitting about and affair with someone at work, and from our reporting a source close to the investigation
tells us that woman at work is cooperating and telling the police what they need to know about the love affair that she had with him.
So Randy Corporon as a reporter out in Denver, this has got to be the talk. What was he up to? What were the motives? And that question from Rick Sue
Davis is really important. Is it possible that Shanann may have found out about an affair, be it a man or a woman? What do you know about this love
life of his?
RANDY CORPORON, HOST, NEWSTALK 710 KNUS: Well, it`s important to remember that only 50 days have elapsed and we`ve gotten so little information from
the police on this case so far. You actually were closer to one person who came out and said that he was the gay lover of Chris Watts. I can only
really report from this end on my own personal experience having raised children, young children to adulthood.
Entering those years, I wasn`t focused on gee, how do I look? Am I working out enough? Am I getting all buffed up? And Chris Watts was going through
all of those machinations, all of those experiences during the run up to this horrible, horrible crime.
BANFIELD: Yes.
CORPORON: So it`s as fair an assessment or a question as any -
BANFIELD: And of course, the People Magazine - yes -
CORPORON: - but I don`t know if we know the answer yet or can even get close to it.
BANFIELD: People Magazine has a law enforcement source saying he`s had many affairs both men and women, so that is definitely facts that we`re
waiting on. Reita Smith (ph) asked this on Facebook. If it is proven that Shanann did kill the children, could they still charge Chris Watts with the
way he disposed of the children`s bodies. Parag Shahhe`s been charged with that. I guess the better question is they could still convict him of that,
but it wouldn`t be much, would it?
SHAH: Well, tampering with evidence is not going to carry a life sentence like the murder charges will, but they can definitely convict him of
disposing of the bodies in that way and still find him not guilty of the murder. I mean, he confessed on TV. He`s - I mean, that charge, he might
as well just plead guilty to that one.
BANFIELD: Yes, and then there`s this question from Holly Ollingham (ph), it could be. I`m sorry if I`m mispronouncing it. I wonder if she was
buried with her wedding ring or did he remove that before hand? James Gagliano, that is a huge fact that I think would matter. If he`s just
disposing of bodies because he`s afraid after he says he did it all in self defense, but happens to, say, remove that ring, does that tell us anything
investigatively?
GAGLIANO: Well, I mean, obviously bodies decompose. Clothing decomposes. The bones and teeth take longer. Maybe his thought was I don`t want to
leave anything there that could possibly be a clue later on if somebody happens upon this grave 50 years from now.
BANFIELD: Yes, I think that is actually a very fascinating aspect of this particular case. We`ll see you right back here tomorrow night, 6 o`clock
Eastern. You can now listen to our show anytime. Download our podcast on Apple Podcast, iHeartRadio, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you get your
podcasts for you Crime and Justice fix.
Thanks so much for watching, everyone. Forensic Files begins right now.
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